#356 Risk is Opportunity with Kyle Harnish

I see risk now as opportunity. It used to have this negative connotation of risk, where it was a gamble. I don't necessarily see it that way anymore, because I have confidence, because I've had some success in business. I see risk as opportunity. Those who are not necessarily willing to take it, but I am willing to take that risk opens the doors for me, welcome back to the monocrestion podcast, guys. Our guest today is someone who lives and breathes the builders mentality,

grit, hustle and constant evolution. Kyle Harnish started in roofing at just 16 years old, and over the last 20 plus years, he's worked his way up from laborer to carpenter to general contractor. Now he's building some of the most thoughtful

custom homes and development in his market. He founded his construction company back in 2011 out of the back of a van, I may say, and has since developed over $25 million in real estate, averaging two to three high end, averaging two to three high end custom homes a year for clients, all while continuing to grow his own portfolio. He's also the founder of Harnish workwear, a brand built for tradespeople by someone who's lived it, and that's what sets Kyle apart. He's not just sitting back

watching from the sidelines. He shows up every single day, gets in the trenches and leads with respect and pride in his work. We'll talk about the risk he took to from his first flip that changed everything, how he battled through anxiety and depression while building his business, and why managing people is still the hardest part of the job, but also the most rewarding. This episode is packed with perspective from business lessons to mental toughness to the value of just

showing up. Kyle's story is proof that if you put the work in, the work will reward you. This podcast is brought to you by Anderson windows. If you're looking for architecturally authentic windows, look no further than the Anderson a series product line design and collaboration with architects. Anderson a Series products are

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light? With Velux skylights, you can transform any space by adding more natural light without sacrificing privacy, bring life to focal points, including the kitchen or the living room, or brighten up small spaces such as closets or bathrooms and leave your clients speechless. Learn more at velux.com/remodeler you now, optics is a big part of the industry. I've learned how you present yourself the Weston building inspector. I'll never forget if for Tyler, Weston's one of the more affluent towns

up here. Yeah, the inspector shows up in a trick to BMW m5 and I'm like, Yeah, and I'm like, can I become an inspector coming in, you know? And I'm like, who's greasing your wheels and all the guys working or noticing it, you know? He walks in and he's doing his thing, and he was the main town inspector,

and he visited the site four or five times. Every time he showed up, like, perfectly minted m5 always clean, you know, but he was the final saying everything we did over there, and it was just he had a certain arrogance to him, and I'll never forget it. And I was just like, okay, so I don't know optics are everything, in my opinion, not to generalize with an m5 but I feel like if you just compliment

his car. You're on his good side. Immediately I knew to do that, you know, but all the other guys are guys are criticizing, what's he doing here? You know, even the client, the homeowner, was like, What the hell is that? He's a town official. And I'm like, Yeah, Kyle, I learned something about you that I did not know that I'm gonna just, I want to just jump right into. Sure You married a therapist. I

married a therapist. You like that response on the I I do because I think, I mean, I want to come, I want to I want to talk about everything that you, you filled in here, but the therapist and you talk about working through anxiety and depression, yeah, learning how to cope, strengthen and work through resolving some of that, but talk to me about being married to a therapist, because I feel like our industry, like it would probably do a lot of us good if we we had a therapist in

our life. Yeah, I think it's probably the single most important thing I've ever done was finding somebody to go through life with who kind of understands me and understand understood my my battle and struggle with anxiety and depression. I think, you know, it's taboo in our culture. We don't talk about it, especially not only in the construction industry, but as men in general.

And you know, she she has helped me cope with so many things and learn how to deal with my own anxiety and depression and humanize it all. But you know, when I first met her, it was 15 years ago, I was out in California, after I graduated college, I just took a one way flight, flew out to the West Coast and set up shop in San Diego, and was bartending, going through the motions, trying to get jobs in construction,

because that's where I started. I started as a roofer when I was 16, but when I graduated college, I didn't really know what I want to do, so I went out there, and then I tried to get on a roofing crew, tried to get on a construction crew, but really couldn't find work. So I ended up working in the hospitality industry, bartending, and that's where I met my wife, and she was training to be to become a

therapist. She was in college and, you know, in my early 20s, having, like, really in depth conversations and discussions with her about life and what I was struggling with at the time, which was kind of figuring out who I was and what I was, you know, set out to do, and she made me really comfortable with those conversations, and I kind of grew up with her along my

side, you know. And when I ended up moving back to Boston, we dated long distance for two years while she was going through grad school, and really formed our relationship over the phone, you know, just talking through things, and I was struggling mightily because I moved back to Boston, didn't really have a path. Was in deep depression, and was back in the

construction field, back on the roof and crew. And it went through three or four really dark years of just struggling and figuring out who I was in my mid 20s, and she She guided me through that gave me the strength and the confidence to build myself back up and then eventually start my own business back in 2010 and that's how I started deaf group construction with another guy in the roof and crew, and I honestly would have never had the confidence to do it if it wasn't for her and

having her teach me coping mechanisms and just being there for somebody to talk to and being open about it. Because, you know, as I said earlier, it's kind of taboo in our culture, not only the construction industry, but just amongst men in general, we don't really know who to talk to about it, you know. And I think all of us struggle with it one way or

another. She just gave me the, you know the avenue to express myself and made it open and easy to talk to her, and I didn't even realize it, just like we've been together 15 years now, and you just realize, oh my god, I did marry my therapist. She was my therapist all along. It's

it's funny like to have that realization. I want to someone recently explained the difference between depression and anxiety, I want to understand, if you feel the same, but depression, and I'm simplifying this, but depression is kind of the fear of what has happened, and anxiety is the fear of what will happen. Yeah, that's is that. That's pretty much it. You kind of battled with both, both sides of that.

You said you went through, yeah, times, yeah. So I think you know, in your 20s, trying to figure out who the hell you are. The hell you are as a man, you know, and trying to figure out why I am wired this way. I've, I struggled with it since I was born. I lost my father at a very early age, and lost him to mental health, which was a horrible thing to process and understand. I mean, he he was gone when I was one. So I had to grow up and kind of figure out, you know, who I was.

And then not till I got old enough, my mother started explaining me what, what happened, and all this stuff. So that was very difficult for me to process and understand. Okay, I'm wired a little differently because of family history and what have you. And then, so that's the depression, right? It's like, oh, well, what happened in my past is probably, you know, causing these feelings. And then the anxiety was the fear of the unknown. And like, am I capable? Am I strong

enough? Can I do this? Can I go out and achieve the goals I've wanted to achieve, and, like, really hard to overcome, that hump you're questioning yourself, like, you know, I. I think a lot of guys go through it. I think it's, again, taboo, unfortunately, not talked about enough. You can work through it. I'm a case in case study of it. It's just finding the right people to talk to. My wife happened to be the person, and

it was, there was a reason that I met her. I firmly believe that, and she helped me overcome my past and understand that I was in control of my future and to stay in the present moment, and to, you know, she guided me to some some books and stuff. I think I talked to you Nick about it, the power now is one of the books that I read. But just learning how to be mindful, be present, you know, and conquer each day, one at a time. And that's got me to where I am today. I mean, that was, it's

been 10 or 15 years since I've really battled with it. I mean, I'm still on medication today. I still, I, you know, I still deal with it here and there, and it's different anxieties and different stresses as you grow your business. But I have the confidence now, and at least the the knowledge of, you know, of being through it and knowing that I can overcome it again when it does arise, it's a daily battle. It's something mental health is something you'll always battle with. It's not

something that goes away. You know, in in hindsight, when do you think all of that started for you? Like once, once you've realized, you know, for me, it was similar when I got into my 20s, and it was like the coming of age and realizing that things were off. But then when I started to get it under wraps, I looked back and I was like, oh, no, this has been there all along for somebody like my wife, which taught me it all stems from somewhere.

There's always a reason for it. She she's able to call it out rather quickly and almost anything. If we're watching a movie or if she's watching the news, she can sense trauma and tragedy like so quickly. She can diagnose people. And I think

we've all gone through it in one way or another. But I think you're right, Tyler, I think in that mid 20s, early 20s, post high school, post college, which were like distractions for me, where I was just having fun and I had enough social things to do and but not till you really have to figure out what your path is in this world and what you're going to do. That's when it really started settling in. You know, I was in an industry, in the bar industry, that I wasn't comfortable in. I knew I was

meant for more. I knew I wanted to do more, and I was struggling with that, and I just couldn't get my feet underneath me and figuring out what I wanted to do, and not until, you know, I really built my own self confidence and taught myself to believe in myself and educate myself in the in the fields I wanted it to go into, I was able to start opening doors slowly. It was definitely that mid 20s. Do you know what specifically like at that point you were afraid of, I

think the unknown. I mean, yeah, failure was huge, right? You know, coming off High School in college, like you're surrounded by your peers and almost everybody's going to achieve the same thing for me, high school was just graduate, college was just graduate, you know, fairly similar goals everybody else. So you're surrounded by people who are going through, you know, certain situations that are similar to yours. But when you're out in the big world, and I was in California, Southern

Cal with no family, my brother ended up being out there. He worked for the Border Patrol, so I had him, and him and I were just out there alone, like no family support, nothing and like learning the world and realizing that it's a huge world out there, and you're really nobody. When you when you get out there, you realize how big everything is. And I was trying to find my path, and I was struggling to really find purpose, and I think I was just scared of I might amount to nothing, or I don't

know if I'm going to be successful. You know, all the pressures I think that all of us go through, it's interesting that you say that. And I like, I have a very similar path and experience in my life. And I can distinctly, like, I can remember it building up, and then it got to a point

when I was living in Colorado where I, like, took a hike. I went up on this mountain, and it was super late, and I'm, like, looking across the horizon, you could see cars driving from, like, where I was, all the way out to Denver, and I had this realization where I was like, this world is so massive. Like the scale of it, where I am is nothing, but I could see so much, and I was like, I don't mean anything. Like, my life

doesn't mean anything. And it scared the shit out of me. And it was like, the beginning of my anxiety really becoming detrimental, and I feel like preventing me from from really reaching my full potential, and handicapping me, so to speak. And from then on out, it was probably, I don't know, six or

seven. Years that I struggled to try and just understand where, like, what my place was, like you said, and I and why I asked you that question is, in hindsight, everything that I was fearful of was, like, where I was going to be, what my path was going to be, you know, where my place in this world was was already happening. And that's like I was in the worst of it. Like it couldn't get any worse than that. I didn't have

direction. I didn't know where I wanted to be, and that's what I was most fearful of, and creating so much anxiety from me. And I just didn't realize that, like, everything I was afraid of was already happening, and I just needed to take, like, one step and then another step, but a very similar experience around the same age, and it probably lasted until I was 2324

until I actually decided to make a change. And then from from then on out, you know, it's been just constant growth and evolution, trying to trying to work my way out of it, or or just be able to live with it and manage it and cope with it. And it's, it's not every it's not bad every day. Some days are worse than others, but, like, the progression is there, but it's still, you still have those, those flashes of feeling like that. Yeah, I'd agree. I mean, I still have days where I don't want to

get out of bed. The stress is like crippling, you know, now as a father and as a husband and I take care of my mother like there's, there's a lot of stresses. As you get older, obviously, you take on more and there's, there's good days and there's bad days. But I think, you know, it's the more I hear from guys like myself, the more I'm open to it and discussing it. My wife's helped me be more open about it and talk about it, and I meet individuals like yourselves who go through it,

all of us. You know, there's so many people that that struggle with it and go through it, but you know, I'd like to raise more awareness on it. My wife's pushed me to do that. She does it for the veterans, which is huge. She's, she's a marriage and family therapist for the veterans and for PTSD trauma victims. So you know, it's she's gotten the veterans who have also been through a lot, obviously, but there was a period in time which veterans got no care and it was taboo to

get them mental health and all that. And so now, fortunately, it's gotten better in that regard. But I think as us who aren't veterans, regular civilians, but guys you know, who put their family on their back every day and try to go make a living and make an honest living at that, and deal with all the stresses and pressures of that, we don't talk about it

enough, you know. And I think a simple conversation with guys like yourself could make one of us feel better going through it alone, you know, how much weight and stake Do you think that you put on, like, your career and your success and building your business with regard to how you how you felt prior, like I feel for the first five years of business, I really laid everything that I had on like, this is my way out. This is my my self worth, my

experiences with customers define who I am. Like, do you feel that your business really served as like that platform to try and create self worth for you? Yeah, that's actually a good point. I don't know that. I've really thought about it too much, but, you know, I think it gave me a purpose. I think, like I said, in high school and college, I had a similar path as everybody else. I knew I just

had to graduate. That was really it. But then as I was kind of moving through my early 20s, I didn't really know what I was supposed to do, and I was struggling with it, and then eventually, when I set out on the path of, okay, I'm going to start my own business. That gave me my purpose. And then now I knew that was my goal. I'm a highly competitive person, and I will do anything to succeed in this goal. And I think that

really kicked into gear. I mean, I started the business, 500 bucks in my account, a white, broken down shitty van and a power washer, and I started it on Groupon. To remember Groupon, and it was literally the worst business model of all time. You know, I was Groupon power washing people's decks because I had a power washer that my dad gave or my stepdad gave me. And I was like, alright, I'll throw this in the van, and I'll see if people want me to power wash their decks and just all get to

meet people. And it was like, the way Groupon worked is they took 50% of what, so you had a slash your price to 50% then they take 50% of that 50% so it was like, okay, a power wash $150 to power wash a deck up to 200 square feet. So that 150 was 75 on Groupon, and I would sell it, and then they would take 3750 of the 75 so I get 37 bucks, and then I go in and take me, like, five hours per hour, someone's desk. And I'm like, wait a minute, I only made eight bucks an hour. This is the worst

business model of all time. And I did that for like, a year and a half, honestly. League, just meeting people, handing out my business card. Eventually that turned into, okay, will you, you know, redo my deck? Will you build my deck? And then I started the business that way. But it gave me something to do, Tyler. It gave me a purpose. It gave me something to do each day. And I grinded my ass off and just got myself out there.

And at night, my wife was coaching me up, you know, I was dating her at the time, and she was like, you know, I believe in you, you'll get better, you know, that kind of stuff. And just you must have been bringing something to the table. It's like, we got a head case who's pressure washing tax for 3750 Yep, yeah. So it was, it was wild man, it was. And it's funny, I have to look back and remember those years and remind myself of those

years. But, you know, I think it's a similar story to a lot of guys, you know, just giving themselves a purpose, getting out there. I always put pride in everything I did. It didn't matter what I what I did. It was taught to me in an early age, instilled in me by my mother and by the guys that I worked for. It didn't matter what I do, the way you do one thing, the way

you do everything. So if I was the dishwasher, I did every job you can imagine, dishwasher janitor, anything, and I would always try to be the best, like, no matter what it was, and people would get pissed off at me. Other guys work. And I remember, I was a janitor for our elementary school here in Milton for a summer because I had fallen off the roof and, like, screwed up my ankle and my back. So I had to find I had to

find work. So I was a janitor, and the janitors hated me because I'd have my whole section of school done in like two hours. Then I'd go in the gym and play basketball, and they would be like, this kid sucks. He's making us all look bad. And I was like, I just try to do everything fast and try to do everything efficient. Find better ways to do things. So I think I took that on and then took that strategy throughout my life, and started the business that way as a, you know, it gave

me a purpose. And I'm up to compete every day, and I think that helps me cope with my anxiety and depression, because it gave me some purpose. Did you ever find that there was too much weight that you were putting on that? Oh yeah, there's plenty of days and nights where, you know, sleepless wake up in the middle of the night, stressing, wondering, what the heck am I doing? I don't know if I'm going to make it through. How am I going to manage this? How am I

going to balance that finances I'm risking too much? Yeah. I mean, countless sleepless nights. Yeah. I mean it's, it's tough. I think that when you find that outlet that finally gives you some sort of self worth, right? And it's something that you're good at, and you're finding success in that, and it feels good, and it's it's probably what you were looking for for so long, and it was helping you come out of your

shell and to find who you are. But I think on the other end of the spectrum, we can take that to the extreme where it's like, this is all that matters, and I put all of my self worth on this. And when things go south, it weighs heavily on us. And I think that especially personalities like yours or mine, you have to find a way to strike a balance between like this defines who I am, and this shapes who I am. Right where it's like, yeah, I like, I get a lot of satisfaction out of what

I'm doing. But if something goes wrong, it's it's not the end of

the world. I can move ahead with this. Like, if I decide I want to make a change, if I want to start something else, if this isn't going right, if I have one bad client that doesn't necessarily define who I am, and that's something I struggled with for a long time, where it's like I finally found something that legitimized my self worth and made me feel good about myself, but I just took it to the extreme where it was like, this means everything.

Yeah, that's the work life balance I still struggle with today. I don't know that I give enough to my life, into my family life and whatnot. I, you know, lot like you guys, working 70 hour weeks to build the business. I often, you know, have my son screaming at me, daddy, put your phone down. And that's that hurts, you know. But I'm trying to build a better future for him and be present for him, you know. Like I said, I didn't have my dad, so it was, it's something that I'm trying

to create this, like, great life for him. And often I'm like, he already has a great life. It's plenty. How much is enough, you know? And I'm trying to do more and more and give him more and more. And it's like, enough. My wife has reminded me plenty of times, it's enough. You've done great. We're doing great. We're better off than our parents. Like, that's the whole point here. But I do struggle with that. I get caught up in that.

And I think that's just, I know part of our culture, part of our part of being a male and, you know, I think our industry certainly too, you know, it's a lot of aggressive alpha male stuff. So I think that, you know, pushes it a little bit, but, you know, at the same token, I look at people who are less fortunate than us, and if somebody was afforded the same opportunity I was, I mean, they should. It's my duty to take the most advantage of it and do the best I can. You know, our

grandfathers. Great grandfathers. I mean, they, they did a lot more difficult things than we're doing today, and fought wars and had to do all that stuff to afford us the luxury of what we have today. And so I balance with that. It's still something I struggle with. And not it's, I mean, I think we talked about it last episode. It's just, you know, it's weird to me that when people don't take advantage, like, You're, like, do absolutely nothing with their

life. And I don't mean like nothing in terms of, like, just have a low level job. I mean, like, literally nothing to the to the other extreme, it's, you know, I think the three of us and plenty people that we know, they all look at all of the opportunities that were, you know, awarded, and we're trying to go after all of them, despite whether or not it's, you know, quote, unquote enough for our kid or our wife or even ourselves. You know, it seems wasteful in life not to go after

more. And I mean, I certainly struggle with it where, you know, my focus was lost for a couple years, and I, I think I have regained a lot of my focus. But that doesn't mean that I'm doing less. It just meaning I'm putting more effort into less things that, you know, Kyle, your comment about work life balance. I think that, you know, it's something that I could say,

I certainly struggle with. But I think one of the the things that I'm reminded of, or at least I believe in, is that there is no balance, and you're in one will always suffer when you're you're you know when you're dealing with one the other one is suffering. And that, whether that's being with your kid or being with your wife, the business suffers. If you're at your business, the relationship with your your family suffers.

And it's, it's, it's always going to be that way. There's, I don't believe that there is a true balance where you're doing both great, you know, you might, you might find, you know, a path to find doing both of them good. But I don't think we operate that way. I think we operate to be great at something. And, you know, part of me believes that if I work really fucking hard now, that eventually there'll be a time where I can give my business less of my attention. Now, I don't know if that's

true. But that's, that's why I believe I'm working as hard as I am now, you know. And internally, I'm thinking, you know, all right, I'm 37 you know, by 40, I want to be have accomplished this, and, you know, and by 50, I hope I can accomplish this. And, and it's interesting because I actually, I recorded a video on my phone. It was just over a year ago, and I was like, I'm gonna start documenting this like, see if I

actually make progress in what I'm doing. I've actually never shared that, but I I recorded this video. It'll be posted on the modern fashion page. Shortly, it will not be posted, because I watched it. It was actually, truthfully, it was very depressing, because it was me, kind of like just spilling my guts to myself, I guess, as to like, this is what I'm doing today. This is what I can't stand. This is where I'm struggling in my life. These are

the things I want to change. And when I watched it, I was like, holy shit. That was a year ago, and I'm like, in nothing, like, I shouldn't say nothing has changed, but like, very little has changed. And that's a whole year later. And I remember that moment when I recorded that because I remember being in such a terrible spot in my mind, in my business, in my personal life, that I was like, I need to, I need to record this so I

can at least reflect on the fact that I overcame that. And instead, a year later, I'm like, Man, I might have overcome that, but I haven't made as much progress as I thought I would, you know, in a pretty long time. And the reason I bring that up, it's, you know, okay, I'm 3740 will be three years from now, like that. You know, that's, that sounds like a long time,

but a year, you know, a year goes by really quickly. And if you're, you know, kind of bringing this full circle, like, if you're not constantly brute force, pushing through your, you know, towards your goals. And you know, as you say, you know, only those who risk are truly free, like, if you're not making, you know, taking those risks and really pushing yourself, you know, I think you find yourself in that, that constant state of just like being alive.

Yeah. I mean, I think one thing to keep in mind, growth takes time. You know, a year is a micro look at it, you know. But look at yourself over the last five years. Nick, you know, take where you were five years to go to where you are today. It's probably tremendous growth, you know. Well, someone, someone mentioned they were like, Hey, Nick, like, you need to, you know, they were like, You need to have patience.

I, I don't disagree with that, but, but, but I have, like, you have to couple that with the fact that you can't just allow time to to pass by and be patient, and it will eventually happen. You know, I am very, I am very patient in the sense that I know, you know, it takes time, but I'm but, but on the flip side, it's, I'm not patient in the sense that I'm just going to allow it to happen, or it will happen when it happens. It's no it takes my, you know, a consistent effort towards that,

you know. And I actually think I, I think I sent an email this week about that, and talking, you know, referencing, like, going to the gym. It's like, you go to the gym one time, like it's not doing anything, but you go, if you consistently go, and a year later, like, there's a there's an actual change, and you're seeing an actual result of that consistent effort. And

it's the delayed gratification. And I think that specifically delayed gratification is something that for a long time I struggled with, and now it's, you know, I kind of remind myself on a regular basis that as long as I'm consistent and I can and I'm continuing to push towards what I want, it will eventually pay off. And that's that, that balance of, you know, yes, it sucks right now. Yes, I have a difficult relationship with my family right now, but these are the things that I'm

doing to ultimately get to what my goal is. And I think just one, one last point on that, I think when I say my goal, you know, I think especially from the male side, I think, you know, I think a lot of us struggle with the sense that you know we're or we're oftentimes called selfish, you know, and it's like, you know you're, you're, this is your goal. It's not my goal. It's not our family's goal. Like, this is

your goal. And I've always kind of had this mentality, is that I've always had my goals and, you know, and I have to prioritize myself in the sense that I need to show up 100% for me before I show up for anyone else. And you know, it's me, it's my family and my business. And if I'm not 100% for me, then I'm, you know, a lesser percent for my family, and the lesser percent for my business, and, you know, and I think that's the hardest thing. I think that's where, you know, we, again, male

get get stuck. We get stuck in the sense like, you know, we're not, we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing. We're not making people happy. And we have all these outside forces kind of trying to guide us to what is better for for other people, other people in our business, our employees, our spouse, our kids, our friends. When it's like none of that's aligned with my goals, your goals, it's and you pull me away from that, then

I'm a different person. I'm not I'm not feeling great about myself, and I'm not going to feel great when I'm around you. Kyle, so much of so much of what you talk about is risk and taking risk, and obviously that's got to be a huge aspect of your business and life. But what in your own words, like, what does risk mean to you? Like, how does it define you? How does it shape you? How does it make you? Get up every day. Hey guys.

Quick break from the podcast. Head over to modern craftsman.co scroll all the way to the bottom and sign up for our newsletter. You're going to get a weekly email from us, but you're also going to get some episode recaps with actionable items that can help you improve your business and be more profitable. Now back to the podcast. Get up every day. Some somebody told me on the roof and crew years ago, if you don't wake up with confidence, don't wake up

at all. And that was kind of something that's always sat with me. So I'm up every day for a battle and a challenge. I see, I see risk now as opportunity. It used to have this negative connotation of risk, where it was a gamble. And I don't necessarily see it that way anymore, because I have confidence, because I've had some success in business, I see

risk as opportunity. Those who are not necessarily willing to take it, you know, but I am willing to take that risk opens the doors for me, you know, and I have failed many businesses, and I have succeeded in a few others. So I'm not I'm not afraid to take risks. I'm not afraid to take chances on

things. And I took more risks when I was in my 20s. Now I'm a little more calculated, because I have a family to support, and I have my son, but it's given me this freedom to explore who I am and try things out and meet individuals like yourselves, and, you know, try to open up my world outside of one specific area, right? So I've been able to build my construction business as a as a custom home builder, and then I've led into

development now that is open. More doors, I've met more people who have had great impacts on my life and major influences on my life and shaped me as a as a man, as a businessman, as a father, brother, you know, husband, and now you know, I'm exploring even other avenues and territories with the workwear stuff. So it's I'm not afraid to take risks. And I find that in in my age now, people are willing to support me and help

me out and try to open doors for me. And, you know, I think in my 20s, I was just kind of curled up and scared of what people might think and what people might view me as, and who am I to start this business? And you know, I was very caught up in that. And I think unfortunately, our younger generations are certainly caught up in it with social media and all this, worried about how everybody's perceiving them. And, you know, it's almost an artificial world out there and what people

project. So I think it keeps a lot of people from trying to do things and seeing risk as a negative thing, but I see it as an opportunity. Sorry, I'm trying to remain alive right now. I told golf line I have the flu, so I'm partially dying. I think that's a really interesting perspective, and one that I can't necessarily like I see a risk more so, I guess less so as

opportunity and more as a gamble. But I've just never had the perspective that, that you just communicated where it's like, yeah, it it can be an opportunity when it when it's calculated and when it's accounted for. It's always just seemed to me where, like, I hear the word risk, and it sounds like a gamble to me, but I think, like, you've, you've made a really good point also about having confidence that it

doesn't, it doesn't necessarily matter if you fail. Like, yeah, there's, there's consequences of repercussions for failure, but we can't allow that to be the reason why we either make a

decision or don't make a decision. And I was just recently listening to a podcast, and this guy wound up being like an elite coach for long distance runners, and he said that, like when growing up, when he was running, yeah, he was great in like, his local circle of of kids growing up, but like, in the big picture, right, when he went to high school, if he went

to college on like, the world level, he was a nobody. And he's like, if I would have grown up in the running world and had, like, the information at my fingertips to be like, Yeah, you're good in your own local network. But when you step outside of that, like you're not even in the top 50% of people, he's like, I probably would have quit. And like, that's something that kids and adults and everyone growing up today, they have access to that information. Like, how many people won't end

up doing something? Because they realize, when they look at like, the overall picture, they're a nobody and, like, There's levels to everything. And I think that it usually for us, it took me, like, same thing as you, till I was 2730 years old, to realize, like, I don't really give a shit if I'm good, or if I fail or or

what the outcome is. But if I would have known the things that I had known now, like when I was 1718 I probably wouldn't have done half the shit, because it's like, yeah, you're not really as good as you think you are. Why? Why even put in the effort? And it's just an interesting perspective that you bring up there. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's I get, I think a lot of my mindset and inspiration from those who've come before me. I I

tend to befriend people who are a lot older than me. If you look at my recent calls, it's probably all guys over 50 and 60. That's my network. I don't I rarely hang out with anybody my age anymore, but it's, it's all the older guys who've taught me, you know, how they've come up, and people who have been big mentors in my life, like one guy who's taken me a little bit under his wing, he's a big mentor to me. Is one of the big

developers around here. He's 75 years old, and you know, I have complained about getting up early, trying to go to the gym and stuff, and I've come to really get to know him, and he's done, like, 25 Iron Mans, right? And, like, you haven't done shit, you know, by the time at 530 rolls around, I I've already run 26 miles, you know. And I'm like, what, you know, it's that kind of, you know, some of them are extreme, David Goggins of the world and stuff, a little extreme. But you realize, like,

you know, I can do this. I Okay, I have a challenge today. There's a hump to get over, but, all right, you know that guy's out there doing doing these things in his 70s and crushing life, and you know, I'm getting hung up on whether or not I can launch this, this brand or this business, you know, or take care of. This house today, or complete this task, or whatever

it is. So I think, you know, being inspired by the generations before us, and learning that, you know, these guys have been through it, and you can do it too, I think is,

is has always resonated with me and helped me through. And then, you know, I think what you guys are doing with the modern craftsmen and getting it out there, this kind of, this kind of dialog about guys like us connecting a community of of guys who are all trying to build their own business and better themselves as men, is something that I've, I applaud you guys for, and it's something that's gravitated me towards you guys, Nick and I, we have, you know, kind of grew up in the same area

of conversations offline quite often about stuff and and about business and stuff. And I'm we learn so much from each other and inspire one another, on, on, on, growing our businesses. And I think guys are willing to talk. They're willing to do that. All the old timers for me have always opened their, you know, doors for me and told me, Hey, don't do that. Stay away from that shit. Go to this. Try this out. Let me connect you

with this. Let me do that you know. And I think over time, Tyler, to your point, from your 20s to your 30s, you've evolved and learned all these things. These guys are ahead of us, so pick their brain. Learn from them. They're looking to teach somebody, usually, you know, and share their knowledge. And I think that's been lost in recent generations, but I think you guys are helping continue dialog and connect people in having conversations on how to help one another. It's it's a battle

every day. It is, it's a struggle. But there's so many other individuals out there battling just like you. I think so much of their perspective is just getting outside of your own little box that you live in and realizing that 30 years down the road, like most of what you're obsessing about and complaining about and stressing about just doesn't really matter, like at the end, like you think it does,

and it's the the biggest deal in the world right now. But you talk to these, these older guys and girls, and they're like, yeah, like, don't worry about it, just keep moving forward. Like, you'll figure it all out. And it seems so simple and easier said than done, but realistically, it is. It sometimes can just be that simple That being said, you have a building business. Obviously, you've gotten that off the

ground while I was reading your your survey. For some reason, when you It's you said that you developed over $25 million in real estate. And my brain is very foggy, but to me, that was like, You owned $25 million worth of real estate. Was like, Damn, he's doing all right. But no, so what? Where I came into the mix and introduced you is through your harness work, where, like, why? But you have, you have a family, you have a lot of other irons in the fire. Like, why? Another business.

I think it goes back to what you know we talked about, is risk is almost in my nature. It's something I see an opportunity for. It's a new challenge for me, but it's something that's kind of a passion project for me. And I know I mean Nick and I talk about this all the time, how you have time for all these endeavors and all these things and trying to be more productive about what I do, allocate time and resources to my development stuff and my building stuff. It's who I am. It's, it's, it's,

it's my backbone of my my business. It's my cash flow. It's everything, everything I've built and sold and developed, you know, is given me the ability to to bankroll this operation of trying to get this harness workwear brand off the off the ground. Something that I learned throughout my business was, you know, it does, it requires capital, requires time,

it requires resources, the right people and all these things. So it wasn't something I just jumped into, kind of, you know, naive about, and I knew it was going to take a while to get off the ground, but it was something that I was passionate about, because I'm in the industry. I grew up in the industry, and I always felt like our industry and construction and building,

the the lack of options in the apparel was was evident to me. I always found myself toeing the line of like, buying fancier, designer kind of clothes that fit me better, but wearing them out in the field and getting them destroyed. And I was always kind of getting irritated with that, and it almost became necessity as the mother of invention, as they say. I was just kind of trying to find different products, and I

constantly fell short. Almost all of them fell short of my expectation, whether they didn't fit or the designs were dated, or they were, you know, too heavy, or they weren't athletic enough. And I just kind of saw it as a challenge for me to be like, Okay, well, what if I were to create my own kind of workwear brand? Because I can't seem to find it out there. And I

took on the task. I. Early, early on during COVID, is kind of when I had the idea for it in I was more inspired by a trip over to Europe and seeing some of the European work where and just kind of how they take a totally different approach on how it's presented over there, it's more professional. All their, all their marketing and advertising is like showcasing the trades as, like a desired profession, not necessarily a

look down upon profession. It was, it was glorified, and they have all these cool technical outfits, and kids wanted to be like that. But I come back to the States, and I'm like, we don't present that at all. We present, you know, old guys and overalls and oversized jackets and plumbers crack. And it's just not, not not the reality. I look at you two guys and myself, and we care about what we look like, we care about our appearance and all that. Why? Why isn't there a brand out

there for us? You know, in all the marketing and advertising, we joke about it, but it's all slapstick humor, you know, throw a cocking gun at somebody and laugh about it and drink beers and like, I mean, that's never going to really progress the building and trades forward. I don't understand why it's presented like that. Why isn't it presented like, you know, a profession that kids want to grow up and be a part of, because I think it's a lucrative profession. I think it's a good

career path. So I was like, okay, the Europeans are doing it like this. Why can't we have something like this? And so I got in touch with this, this local sportswear designer who just came off Reebok and Adidas, and he helped me look at some athletic apparel and kind of design a few pieces that, you know, you guys have been, have been so gracious about I've been sharing my my journey with you guys. You guys have supported me and helped me in in kind of sampling our products. We're not

perfect. We're just getting off the ground. We're, you know, sampling all our gear, you know, trying to get it out there in the hands of of trades, men and women, and just kind of see the feedback and and try to build this thing organically. And, and I do get a lot of excitement about it when I think about it, you know, it is a ton, ton of work, and requires a lot of resources and time, but one thing, because it's my namesake, my name is behind it, it's something I'm not really willing

to compromise on. So I'm learning this business as I go. I'd have no experience at apparel, but I do have experience in business, and I've built businesses before, and I know it takes time, and I know, you know, you got to, you got to be willing to put the work in, and you got to have the confidence to do so I've been criticized by plenty that, you

know, hey, you're, what are you getting into apparel for? It's funny, all the people of, like my generation, like family, friends, or whatever kind of critique it and criticize it, but the guys, like we were talking about the older generations and stuff. They're the ones who are inspiring me to do it, go for it, because who gives a shit, you know, fail, you know. So it keeps me going. It's something that I do find

passion. And I get to connect with individuals like yourself, and we get to talk about things outside of, you know, apparel, like mental health and shit like that. I don't get any time to do that in the construction field. I'm too busy building houses or, you know, working on the next development project. So this is something where I get to slow down a little bit, but focus on stuff that opens up my world to meeting new people and exploring something different, but something I do care about and

hope that does succeed. But I'm a realist. I understand that. You know, both businesses don't succeed. It requires a lot of effort. It requires support from individuals like yourselves. We've been sending out our product to all sorts of influence. There's a ton of people that probably listen to your podcast. We've been doing this h label program where we're printing the T shirts for local businesses. And I know Nick's

been great. He's been using us for his businesses, we print your T shirts, your sweatshirts, and that's a way to, like, introduce ourselves and provide value to the clients and be like, Hey, we're here as, like, a partner for you guys and workwear. And here's a service we can provide to to to help your business grow. And then hopefully you'll try us out in some of our signature apparel that we're releasing, which is our pants and sweatshirts and jackets and jeans and all this

stuff, but it's a massive learning curve. It's something that, you know, I have been putting a lot of time and energy into, and I'm up for the task, but I certainly need the community support and help in trying to get the thing off the ground. Because I'm doing it. We're doing it, just me and one other guy. There's no, yeah, nice wrapping it, yeah? Like, especially in the apparel

industry. So my wife is in furniture production, but came from, she was working for you RBN, which is Urban Outfitters they do for she was in a furniture but also in the clothing brand. And, like, if you're not doing truckloads of business. It's a very difficult industry to break into, just like it's really hard to justify those numbers. When you're on such a small scale, you don't have much leverage. We're artists and in creators in our in our own respective

professions. But you know, Nick and I talk about this a lot with. With the custom home building, like we have a hard time like scaling back on something quality wise, production wise, cost wise, because we want to see it a certain way, and you're almost willing to do whatever it takes to get it there, even if it comes out of your own pocket. So for instance, like our pant, this creator pant that we've

been working right. Our competitors, certain brands that out there have been out there forever, they're probably paying like eight to 10 bucks to manufacture their pant and sell it for eight I'm literally our cost is like 60 to $70 per band, and I'm trying to sell it for like 151 80. It's not a very practical way of making it, but I refuse to sacrifice on quality, or sacrifice on the technicality of the pan or the fabric of the pan. Other business would be like, You're

crazy. You can never sell those kind of pants, but it's something I believe in. I don't want to put my name behind something that's that's cheaply made, or anything like that. So I'm not certain it's going to work out, but I that's the way I built my other businesses. I've always put my name out there, my reputation. I'm willing to do whatever it takes. I'm willing to put up all the resources that I have and give it the best

effort I can. And I believe customers will see it eventually and come on board and try us out and know that we're bringing a ton of value. And hopefully, over time I can improve my business, improve my returns, and all that, and and, you know, that's, that's just how I've always been. I'm not willing to sacrifice. So, I mean, to your point, Tyler, it's a very, very difficult industry to break into it. Anybody I've talked to about

it, they're like, What are you paying per unit? Yeah, and I'm like, oh, man, you just have and you're getting stuff made in the US. So it's a mix of Vietnam, Taiwan. I tried, like originally during during COVID, it was Chinese stuff for for in terms of sampling and whatnot, you know. And I get the whole Made in

America. We design in America. We do everything we can. But the the factories in Europe are by far the most advanced in Europe and Asia, and their technicality on the technical work where like that, the lululemons of the world, the Nikes of the world, all that stuff is made overseas, because the the craft is so high level in those factories. So we use their factories in Vietnam

right now. And they're just very, very highly technical and skilled, and I didn't know that until I started working with the sportswear designer who opened my eyes to that. And was like, no, these companies use these factories for a reason. They're, yeah, the highest quality. So we've been doing was literally just in Vietnam last week. So, like, I, I understand that aspect of it.

We're not trying to go for that niche necessarily, like, I know there's a whole Made in America workwear niche, and that's fine. That services that that specific niche. But, you know, it's like athletic apparel. How many different athletic apparel options are there for you guys? We talk about this a lot. You know, in you know, we're trying to be something different that's not currently being marketed and offered in the in this space. And I think we're more focused on the apparel itself than

necessarily the whole, you know, narrative, so to speak. I think I want to create really high level technical workwear that the people in the field actually want and wear. Well, I think you just hit the nail on the head. It's, it's the narrative that is typically that, you know, what is supporting the the Made in America, right? And I think I'm

not a, you know, it's not that I'm for or post that. But I think for me, it's like, it's like, building, you know, I just want to work with the very best material, the very best manufacturers, like, if they happen to be in the US, like, yeah, I, you know, it sounds like you would work with them in the US, if there's a better option that is overseas that's producing a higher quality product. Like, we're just

comparing quality product that's in this conversation. Like, then, yeah, it's, you know, we do the same thing with material. It's like, you know, we got shit for ordering white oak from Germany. And they're like, Why? Why wouldn't you just get it in the US? You there's plenty of it here. I'm like, not at that spec, yeah? Like, I could find you it. I'm like, find it, yeah? Because, like, I would have, we would have, we would have purchased it in the US. It's not like I was, like, I need to use

German white oak. It's that, hey, that was the very best material we could possibly source. And I think that, you know, it is, it's tied back to this, this narrative that, you know, some people buy into, you know, I want to go back just a minute, because you were talking about being in Europe, seeing how professional everything is. It's funny, anytime I've been there, I walk by these construction sites, and I have a whole slew of photos, because all the sites are branded clean.

Everyone looks like nice and neat and but it's, it's. That level of professionalism that makes the trade like, brings this higher level of respect there. And I think, you know, hearing you talk about it today, you know, actually makes me realize that what you're doing, you're not just bringing a new apparel to our industry. You are creating this, you know, other funnel to to encourage people to get into the trades, because you're creating this professionalism around it, you

know, and they're there. They're seeing, like, I would argue, that there's going to be a path of people that come through Harnish into the trades, because you've created this higher level of of, you know. You know, style is like, for lack of better terms. But you know, now people are coming in and they're, they're more professional looking. And I, you know, and I talk about it constantly. It's, you know, the uniform everyone has to be in a branded t shirt, you know, like you have to and

to think about that. You know, when you start your business, it's like a super exciting time. It's like when you order your shirts with your own company on it, like that. That's a huge moment for anyone starting a business, which was smart for you to start, start the age label thing, because you found a high quality t shirt. And, you know, in all of our stuff, for all of our brands, including modern craftsman, it's all on the harness T shirts. But, you know, that was that, that's that

first step. And I'll, and I'll never forget, a couple years ago my guys like, are you guys, are you gonna get your own pants and make us wear the pants too? And I've all and I joked, and I was like, you know, I've always thought about the UPS mentality, where it's like, I provide you shoes, socks, pants, just not brown, just not brown. But, you know, but there's, there's this level of professionalism behind it's the Jocko, like Stormtrooper

reference I've made before. It's, you know, when, when you show up and your team is branded, everyone looks the same. You're taken more seriously and like to completely counteract the slapstick humor that you were referencing. It's like, sure, I get it. Like slapstick humor will always be

around. But I do think that generally, a lot of those brands are looking at that as, here's our path into the trades, where it's like, you can have slapstick humor that doesn't also need to be tied back to your work, where that kind of refined image that you see in Europe, and see how

it's presented. I just, I it really resonated with me when I was over there, that, you know, when I came back, just the sheer scale of of construction across the United States, and how many people are in the trades, and how I don't see it anywhere like I don't see any of it. And even the largest construction companies, the suffix the bill, Bains and courts, what have you.

You know, they're still not fully outfitted out I mean, they sure they have a vest on or maybe a hard hat on, you know, but all the guys are still wearing kind of baggy pants, and, you know, carrying their coolers to work, and, you know, big construction boots and bulky baggy clothes and whatnot. And I'm like, Well, why? Why hasn't it changed? You know, over in Europe, everybody's in the same kind of stylistic uniform. They have Snickers, Snickers Workwear, which is huge over in

Europe. And you look at their catalog, and it's so technical, they have every single thing you could wear. And, you know, all the people being presented is clean and refined and professional, but us, I can't think of the last catalog I got from a work bear company, maybe a car hard or something like that, but it's the same stuff that's been around the canvas and duck canvas, what have you that's been around since our grandfathers. You know, no real change, no you know, no

evolution. That's what all the hipsters wear now, though, yeah, and then they right, got a car hard hat on, and you're like, What do you know? But they stole the brand. So it's like, okay, you know, is there sell all my old Carhartt shit? Yeah, do you get premium for that? What, um, the jeans that you made? What is the feedback? So I initially gave you feedback, and was like, the the Fit wasn't great for me. And I was telling nick the other day. I was like,

I put them back on again. I was like, Oh, I actually like these, and I've been wearing them a ton now, and I'm just like, I got to email them to let them know. I don't know why. I was like, All right, let's give them a set. Maybe I needed more. I need to do some laundry or something with my wife being gone. But I'm like, I've been wearing them a ton now, that's the thing. It's it's a brand, and our apparel is going to push people to be out of their comfort zone a little bit

because it's more designer fit. It's more like more athletic fit. You know, more more form fitting, I would say. But I liken it to like a tailored suit, right? A Tailored Suit makes you feel great, makes you feel confident. You know, you've we've all bought the big, boxy suits from the Men's Warehouse. But if you've ever got a real tailored suit, it makes you feel like an all star, and you go out, you feel like you're going to have a great night. So this is more tailored apparel, right?

And it, it takes time to figure out what size every every person is, but it is going to be more form fitting. You know? It's, it's something that make you think, oh, maybe this isn't work. Where my biggest hurdle right now, which is, it's kind of funny, is I've given all the power to my guys. None of them want to wear it to work because they think it's too nice. So they wear it out on weekends and they go motorcycle driving in it, or bring it to the bar. I'm like, Guys, no, no. You can wear

it to work, and you can also wear it out. Like, that's the whole point here, you know? And I've had to push them. They know them. They're all like, oh, no, boss, it's too nice. It's tonight. I'm like, no, no, wear it, please, and wear tested and but they think it's too nice and it makes them look, you know, like they were if they're out on the weekend. I'm like, No,

that's the whole point. So it's, it's kind of a, it's going to be pushing this kind of educational marketing, advertising thing where I have to tell people, like, yeah, you're gonna feel like it's not meant for work, but it's that is, that is an interesting thing. I do think that will be your biggest hurdle, because even my guys, like, you know, they're a bunch of them are wearing it, but it's not, they don't put it on and be like, Oh, I'm wearing work pants, yeah.

And, you know, they're kind of getting used to it. And, you know, even some of the guys that I didn't think would wear it, you know, they're like, I actually love these. Like, they're super comfortable. And I'm like, awesome. And, you know, and it's, I mean, I'm giving you live feedback. I'm like, texting you and like, hey, they think they stay dirty too much. You're sending me a picture of wiping it with a wet rag, and it's brand new again. I'm like, there you go. There's your answer. That's

yeah. It's part of the reason they cost so much to make, you know, I'm like, just not willing to compromise. Took me, like, a year just to develop one pant. And I'm like, I mean, I asked you for that pair of pants for over a year. I'm like, just let me have them. You're like, no, they're not ready. No, I they have to perform a certain way. And then I almost made them too nice, and now the guys don't want to wear them. And I'm like, Well, no, that's not the point here. You got to wear them. Try

them out. The idea is that, you know, you only need to buy one pair in the winter and one pair in the spring, summer, you know, and have that more heavier, insulated brand for the winter and fall. And they water resistant. You wipe your, you know, dirt right off. But you can also, if you have to go off the job site and go meet a client, or if you have to go, you know, after school and pick up your son and go to a sports game or something, you could still have them on and not look

like a jackass. That's, that's the idea. They're, they're flexible, you know, they're, they're multi use. And I think that's where I have to educate the consumer on the value. Because a lot of you know, criticism from the get go is like, oh, you know, you're marketing for $180 pair of pants. You don't need the 100. Don't need the $180 pair of pants for workwear out there. You charge that much. I'm like, Well, I'm putting a ton of money into them. They cost us a ton to

make. But they're versatile. You can wear them for a lot of different things. You know, your average workwear pants 6080 bucks, yeah, but it tears in a month, and you have to get another one, and you can't necessarily where it's other areas, or where it's other functions and whatnot, you know. But, you know, I know Nick and you and I have talked about, but like, the lululemons and what have you, the everyday jogger pants that you get from built or cuts, you know, they're $100 you

know. And I started seeing my guys wearing those on the cruise, and I'm like, What are you doing? Those rip right away. They're not meant for that. So I'm trying to be that kind of technical, athletic brand in the workwear space, because I don't think anybody's really tapped that yet. I think the the Lululemon ABC pants, right, like those, have become increasingly popular, and you know, less so in the field.

But you know, when guys are getting home or or more casual, they're putting those on because they're light, they're comfortable, and they still look good, and you had made that reference months ago, is that this is kind of that version, but for work wear, where otherwise, like, you're putting on a pair of jeans that you hope you know last, or your work you're wearing another pair of work pants that they're either in the same price point as yours and a different material, or

they're a lesser price point, and they're not going to last as long, right? You know. And it's but not hitting. You know exactly what you said, like not hitting that, you know, more versatile pant where, you know, they do look like I'm, I wear, you know, and I'm most I'm primarily in the office, but I can go, I know. I can go the job site and get down and do layout or work, you know, work, if I have to work, put my boots on and, as I say, take my boots back off. And they're not.

They're not, you know, gross, gross jeans that are all mangled up from the job site. They're, you know, I wipe them off and they're brand new again, yeah, I took a lot of cues from like, the athleisure market. We've obviously watched that explode over the years, but the athleisure market, almost, you know, took place to the whole work the office work style, right? Like, you still have to wear slacks and all that stuff to work now, the guys wear jeans

or they wear athleisure pants. You see a lot of men and women wearing Lululemon and whatever. To the workspace, and they're working the whole, yeah, that's the whole push. Is like, you here's, you know, here's a pair of pants you can work. You can wear out or at work, exactly. And that was completely pushed to everything in in the office, nothing in the, in the in the

trades, right? It's like, no, no. In the trades you have to change, and it's, and that's really what you're you're answering, yeah, I'm trying to kind of break down that concept. And I didn't realize how much it's ingrained in everybody. It's such like an indoctrinated concept and image we all have of a worker, of a trades person. It's like the, you know, blue collar jeans, the Red Wing boots, you know, and the oversized Carhartt jacket

and or overalls. And I'm like, I hadn't seen anybody wearing that in the last 20 years. All my guys who, you know, down from framers electricians to board a plaster guys, the plumbers, they're all in like, some form of other apparel, you know, they might, they might have lululemons on one day, they might have jeans on another day, you know? And it's just, there's no specific brand or concept image of, like, what it looks like to be a trades person anymore. It's just a mixed bag.

I mean, you don't realize, like, I've worked in the trades for 20 years, and still, I'm in the field a fair amount, and it makes sense. Like, why as an industry, would we not be making clothes that are easier and more comfortable to move around in?

And there's a durability perspective to that. But like, why are we wearing these massive, heavy, clunky boots that, like, collect shit in the bottom of them, and then, like, clothes that you can't move around in, or are so big and uncomfortable, like, if anything, we should be wearing stuff that helps us move more efficiently, that's more comfortable, that's less baggy, doesn't get caught in things, and then has the durability with it. Like we're not sitting at a

desk all day, like we need to be agile. We need to be able to move around. We need to be efficient, and we need to stay safe. And I think that a lot of the clothes that are out there and that have been out there are basically created just to be durable and have no sense of fashion and no sense of being designed from like an efficiency and a movability perspective.

And I think, you know what? When I started realizing, because I came up in the trades, with all the with all the guys worked in every part of the industry, really, guys care about their tools. They care about their trucks, you know, they take care of themselves in areas that they feel like, you know, represents them, and they're willing to invest time and energy in keeping those quality tools, keeping those quality trucks,

taking good care of them, willing to spend the money. I mean, how many guys on our teams buy Festool, you know, German, German tools and whatnot, because it's top of the line and it performs a certain way. So you know, if we're willing to invest in those categories that represent us are as an extension of ourselves. Why haven't we had anything in the apparel market that also represents us as an extension of ourselves, you

know? So I think in in the other work areas of the world, outside of construction, plenty of apparel options there, you know,

plenty of different suits and styles and all this stuff. But rarely has there been anything in the in the workwear space, at least, my experience over 20 years as well, I I struggle to find something to wear, and because I'm in the office one day, and then I got to run to four or five sites, and then I got to walk in mud, and then I got to meet the framer, and then I got to run back to the office and try to close the deal for a

potential client. And it's just I never really knew it, where I'm constantly changing out of stuff, so I just saw it as an opportunity, and, you know, something that I was willing to embark on and endeavor, so to speak. But, you know, here we are. I mean, I'm over a year in now of really putting putting the energy behind this and and, you know, I've learned a lot in a year. Nick you talked about this earlier in the podcast,

about looking where you are from a year ago to today. You know, I think fundamentally, if you look at like numbers, I I don't think I got to where I wanted to be at all. I haven't sold enough product, you know. And everything took a little longer than I thought, and all the development stuff, and I think I I probably got in the way of that by trying to be perfect on certain items. I could never be perfect. And I'm trying to be better at that. And say, you know, it's, it's good enough

Kyle, like you can put it out there. But you know, we, we get caught up in our own, in our own, you know, thoughts and and, you know, striving for perfection, so to speak. So I think the growth spin there for a year. I'm excited to get the product out there, and with the help of you guys, you guys have helped me, you know, reach, reach the communities out there. But it's really right now is getting the product into as many

people as possible. I'm giving this stuff away to. Influencers say anybody who reaches out the age label service is a service we can provide to connect with people and give us a chance and

provide real value, I think. But also I'm just trying to get the product out there for people and try to get their their honest feedback and grow with the community, because I think that's ultimately what's going to lead to the success of this brand, or the failure, you know, is whether or not people get on board with it and believe, believe in what we're doing, and

I'm putting my name behind it. That's why it's my namesake. I really struggled with naming the brand Harnish, going back to the earlier part of our podcast talking about risk and, you know, anxiety and depression, putting my name out there was huge for me, because it's not only my name, it's my son's name, it's my family name, like everybody knows now. So, you know, that took a lot for me to to have the confidence to put it my name on this, because it very well might be something that

doesn't succeed. And, you know, I don't want it to be similar, but, you know, I I've have the confidence in the in the, you know, in my own abilities, and in I believe so strongly in this industry, and I think it needs something like this. So my passions behind it, you know, and I think you guys, we've talked plenty, plenty of times offline, you can hear my passion Go, go through the product and really do whatever it takes to make it right and make it something valuable for the industry.

Do you think there's a opportunity to like, I think like to branch outside of just our industry? I even look my brother's like a mechanic technician, whatever you want to call him. I feel like there's so much opportunity for markets like that, where they just have the same, like, blue Dickies with the patch that they've been wearing, and they they send off

to get laundered every day. And I'm like, there's gotta be opportunity to, like, have more of a fit for these guys and girls, where it's like, you look at, I mean, I ride dirt bikes, you look at, like the Supercross mechanics on TV, and they have, like, the nice clothes and, like, it's, it's all branded, and it's, it's not grease covered Dickies with a patch of their name on it. Yeah, definitely, we, we've explored that and looked into

those sectors. There's so many of them. You mentioned mechanics, even, like Nick mentioned earlier, UPS, delivery drivers, Amazon drivers, you know, anybody works in warehouses or anything like that. There's just so many areas that I feel like have been neglected, and their options have just been like Dickies and Carhartt or timber, you know.

But here's an athletic apparel brand that's, that's, you know, starting off in the workwear sector, but can branch out to hiking and and, you know, outdoor activities and hunting and all sorts of things, because I think that that's how durable the pant is, and it can bring you outside of the work

environment and into other areas. And I think that growth will come over time, but I'm focusing right now and utilizing my network, because we're such a grassroots startup, which is the construction industry.

No, okay, I hadn't thought about the Amazon like network, because you think about, I forget how many years ago, I think it was during COVID, but like, then they started sending out the vests, because there would be, like, people at people's door, like, delivering packages to doors and they didn't know that they were an Amazon driver. It's like, how are you identifying them as a delivery driver, versus someone yanking your package off the front step? And they're like, oh, we'll just

give everyone vests. But it's, you know, I think that's a small example, but, like, that's a great example as to, like, the importance of consistency and brand and uniform. Yeah, I don't know. I don't remember what I was gonna say when you cut me off, but that's okay. A presentation is big, you know, I mean, if you went into a doctor's office and the doctors weren't wearing, you know, white coats, and the women weren't women, and guys were wearing

scrubs and all that, you'd be kind of freaked out. And you'd be like, wait a minute, what's going on here? It's just a professional operation. So I don't know. For whatever reason, the trades were never presented as such that you had to wear a uniform, and I, and all the other industries seem to have one. That's what I was gonna ask. What when you when you were talking about failure? What? What do you What does failure look like to you for this, holding

on to inventory is big, you know. So I had to produce a lot. I had to get a lot of inventory in order to get the product out there, to get it on individuals, to get them to test it and feel us. And I think you and I have talked about this. All three of us is providing value. You You guys are doing it with your modern work, where, you know, courses and all that, I have to give something away in order for people to trust and feel me out.

It goes back to my days with Groupon, where I worst business idea ever, but I gave myself away to meet people, and I provided value, and they trusted me and liked me. I earned their trust, and then I. Business with them, you know, and I grew the business naturally. So here's my way of like, doing business with people. I talk to you guys about it, and I hope you're on board with it, but want to provide some sort of discount code for all your members. And, you know, offer real value on these items

and get people to try them at a very discounted price. And at least, you know, try our product. Be honest with us. Give us feedback. I You have my word and my assurance that we'll do you know, what we can to make the product the best it can be.

But failure, to me, Nick honestly, is to have this product go out there and, you know, not turn into any sort of, you know, consistent feedback and sales and interaction, if it just falls flat, and I missed the mark completely, you know, I can take that on the chin and understand that, okay, I gave it a great shot. I poured the resources behind it. I gave it a

long, you know, runway, and didn't bail on it too early. And I tried linking up with people in my network, such as yourselves, to get the word out there, and if it doesn't succeed, then, hey, I gave it the best possible chance it had to succeed. Well, I think that's important too. When it's like, Hey, we're not willing to compromise, we're not willing to take shortcuts, we're not willing to bring a product to market that isn't

what we believe in. Because of that point if something fails, you're not questioning, well, I should have done this differently. I should have done that differently. It's like I did everything in my heart that I thought was necessarily it was true to brand it was on point. I wasn't willing to compromise, and it didn't work. Then it's like, yeah, I just knew that it wasn't meant to be, rather than having that that, you know, that thought in the back of your mind where it's like, what if I would

have done this differently? What if we didn't cheap out on this one detail? So to me, that's the way to do it. From a business perspective, a lot of times it's not the right move. But like, I think, as small businesses, we don't, we can't necessarily play by the same rules trying to get off the ground as like bigger, larger scale businesses who just have the ability to leverage these manufacturers, these factories where you're getting

stuff made like you got to start small. You got to put the money in. You got to make it the best it can be, and then hope that you can get to a point where you can develop relationships, working relationships with these factories and these people that they believe you, they endorse your product, and you continue to grow with them as a business. I feel like I know another project like this, where it's

just uncompromised commitment and in hopes that it works. So I'm I'm very much in support of, obviously, what you're doing, and to relate it to another completely different industry, the auto industry, is so interesting to me, specifically in like the super and hyper car world. You know, one of my kids was sick over the weekend, and I went down a YouTube rabbit hole and watched the entire Bugatti series, and then kept going deeper and deeper. And good friend of mine was a McLaren

mechanic forever, so I'm texting with him. He's like, Oh, yeah, look up this car, and it would, but it was the same, it was the same thing that we're talking about here. It was, they would build these cars to and make no compromise, and just be like, This is what it's going to take. It's going to take $5 million to build this car, we need to build it. It will work. And, you know, everything from like, I mean, Bugatti is now just, I guess VW

is fun. Money is my understanding of Bugatti. But then there's these other guys, like, this other guy who, you know, basically built a car, raised the money, like him talking about it. It was like, he raised the money to do a spec, yeah? And he's like, and he went out to a bunch of investors, raised the money and built this car that they're trying, they're gonna try to sell for $5 million a piece, but the one that he has can't be driven. Like, didn't pass, so

can't be driven on the road. Yeah? And I'm like, This is crazy, but, but there's a market for that. Like someone wants that car, someone loves the fact that that car exists, and wants one. And, you know, to bring this full circle, like, I think that the people that are out there pushing the envelope and trying to and doing everything that, everything they can, to avoid making a compromise, whether it's work, where, whether it's a house, whether it's a car, you know, will be

rewarded in whatever amount of time. Because, generally speaking, the options are the the you know, fast and loose options, the things that are more have a larger potential market share where it's like, that's just not what any of these companies are trying to do. Bugatti is not trying to sell to everyone. They're trying to sell to the elite few. And, you know, like the clothing that you're you're making with Harnish, it's, you know, it doesn't have to be for everyone,

no, but it has to be for the. People that take themselves seriously and want to have a better image on the job site and value a quality product to do that, yeah. And I think my experience in construction and development has taught me that I liken it to real estate like every house I build is not for everybody. Nick, you talk about it with your projects and your spec hubs, you know, I'm not buying it for anybody. All I need is one buyer to believe in it, you

know. And I it it. I learned that over time, like, stop living in the world of everybody else, like all noise, you know, like, I believe in this product. It's an extension of who I am, and I'm willing to put it out there in the world and see if there's people like me who want to wear this stuff, and, you know, want better work wear options, and I'm willing to do that. And if I give it the best effort and it doesn't succeed,

well, I can still rest my head at night and move on. And, you know, I think in the real estate sector, where I've invested in homes, I have way blown budgets before on specs like way overspent, and it's usually has still resulted in a sale and somebody seeing it my way and paying a premium for it. I took the risk, I went ahead and did it, and I, you know, people call me crazy. I can't tell you how many people call me crazy for any property I bought, or anytime I go to sell a house.

What? You can't charge 5 million for that. Are you crazy? You'll never get it. And sure enough, you get it. And it takes time, and there's a lot of criticism that goes a long way, but being able to turn off that mental noise and just staying focused and believing in it has taught me a lot. It has given me the resiliency in the in the confidence to try and endeavor like this in the apparel industry, and have that, have the stomach to, you know, withstand it and go through it.

So, you know, just trying to evolve and see if there's just something else that I can do, and I find it fun some days and super crazy stressful other days. Yeah, that's the that's the life we live. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm not, I'm not quitting my day job, you know, I I good at what I do and the building and development, and I'm growing in that space. But like, what you guys do with modern craftsman, you have a passion for this, so you guys

find the time to do this and give back to the community. And this is my way of giving back to the community that's helped shape me and form me to who I am. I think I'm trying to provide some value here and and hopefully the community sees it as such. And you know, if you really care about something,

you'll find the time. Kyle, appreciate you being on, man, I'm It was cool to learn about your wife's relationship with you and kind of walking through that I, you know, I fully support what you're trying to do. And what she has said is, you know, more of us need to be a little bit more open about what we're going through internally. You know, you and I talk offline, Tyler and I talk

offline. We all talk offline, kind of behind these closed doors of of friendships and try to work through all the bullshit we deal with. But, you know, sometimes it's it's not enough. And you know, whether it's therapy or a mentor or or a group, you know, I think that it's, it's really important to make sure that you're working through that stuff. You know, I'll be the first to admit, I certainly bottle up a lot, a lot of my emotions, and it's not the healthiest thing for me or

anyone. So being more, you know, actionable is, certainly, you know, warranted in what we do. Yeah, I think that's my next step in evolving, you know, would be as I get older and if hopefully get more successful, is to give back. And I really see it as doing so in the mental health space. I just think that's something that's not

supported enough and not openly talked about enough. And I think in our industry, especially, and and I think that, you know, if I do get Harnish off the ground, it's a way for me to tour and visit people and go across the country, like where I am now, and building development, I'm very stuck in my area, so I see Harnish as an opportunity to get out there and support more

people. And hopefully I could, you know, start some sort of charity or something like that, or give back, or just raise awareness to mental health, because I'm very much passionate about it's a cause of mine that I've gone through personally and and I think a lot of us do go through and, you know, having that open dialog with like minded individuals and people who are going through it, it just helps tremendously. It makes you feel like you're not alone. And I swear it helps us

all raise everybody up. And, you know, help us all do a little better in our lives. Well, I was, I was just looking at Alex sent an email about the Harnish workwear, and, you know, modern craftsman kickoff, and it looked. Like you're gonna be offering 10% off for anyone

doing the H label stuff. So anyone that's listening that wants to get their shirts printed, there's 10% but I'm not gonna share it on air, but it looks like you're offering a heftier discount if they order the Creator pants, which both Tyler and I are wearing. If you guys are interested, we'll have a link below so you can capture that. That heavily discounted, and that's your first run of pants, right? Yeah. So our first run of pants due to us in about three or four weeks, we

did a Kickstarter. We raised about 20 grand, which was awesome, basically, to secure that first production run. We got five, five or 600 pants coming. And you know, Alex and I were talking. Alex is our designer in house, and he's, you know, I said, Listen, you got to get it out there on people. It's going to be, they're going to be reserved at first, to spend $180 on a pair of pants. So let's offer a heavy discount and get

it into people's hands. Just cover our costs for what it costs to basically produce the product, but get it out there and individuals and provide value we've talked about this. So I think, you know, using your guys platform and your community, we would love to offer your your listeners a substantial discount in order to get it on people and get the feedback that we're looking for. Sweet, yeah, that's a link below. Guys, awesome. Kyle, good to

see you. Man, always a pleasure both of you gentlemen, I can hear your phone blowing up. It's know what it's like. It's constant. It's constant. I got mine on vibrate during the show. I don't know how you find time to do this, but I applaud your efforts. Seriously, it was just struggle for me to block out the two hours this afternoon. I can't imagine you guys doing this every week, but easier when it's consistent, to be honest. Oh, that's true.

I gotta ask. I gotta ask you guys, because my my wife, being the therapist, she has asked me, what do you do for your own self to escape in, like, cope, like, Do you have any sort of that's weird, my wife, we were talking about that last night. My wife has pushed me to do it. And mine is basketball, and I play basketball every Thursday night. It's two hours where I don't think about anything, and I never realized it. So she was like, do you think about anything else? I was like, I

literally don't. I just think about basketball for two hours, and it's gorgeous and it helps, like, my my mental health for the rest of the week. She's like, you need to do that. I bet you, you know, for some people to the gym or what have you, but I would like to ask you two, what do you guys do? So I started racing dirt bikes a few years ago. So that's for me,

trying to get out once a week. Ride my dirt bike race more consistently, but it's the same thing, it like, gets you into that flow state where I literally don't care about anything else, trying to balance that I raced this weekend and had the flu, but I was like, I just love riding my dirt bike so much I'm gonna go race. And I was like, bad move. Definitely

shouldn't have done that while having the flu. It set me back some, but, yeah, that was, I don't know, maybe four years ago that I started that, and it was like a massive shift in mindset, perspective, mental health, just having something other than work to create, like self worth, identity, and also just get me out of the work mindset where it's like, even if it's three hours a week, there's literally nothing else that I'm thinking

about. It's not, you know, there there's no family guilt, there's no work guilt, there's no hey, I should have been doing this. It's just like, this time I haven't other than, like, partying in college and shit like that. I feel like there's nothing that's been like that distracting for me to really pull like in a positive way, like, I don't get done riding my

dirt bike and be like, I shouldn't have done that. So, yeah, that's been the same thing that you're saying, I'm sure, similar with basketball, which was also my wife motivating me to be like, Yo, you don't have any hobbies or really, any friends outside of work, you need to make a change. Yeah. I mean, for me, I would like to say it's the gym, but I don't think it is, because I go like, I'm consistent. I go there every morning 530 but it's not, it's like, I've never hit my

flow state there. It's I'm there. I have to get this workout in, and then I'm thinking about prepping for the day. So I would say that I'm due for something, which is a difficult thing for me to think of right now, because I feel like my schedule is so insane and busy and I'm trying to do so

much. And you know, there is both home guilt and work guilt, but thinking, you know, in the past, it was, you know, I used to build cars, have a truck I was building forever, you know, being in my shop and just kind of wrenching for hours, that was, that's probably the last time I remember really being in a flow state. You. It'll be 230 in the morning, no idea, you know, and just look down, like wrenching on a motor or something, and realizing, holy shit, too, I better go home. Yeah, I would say

that's my my wife talking. But I'd bring in the conversation full circle. I'd say, find that activity, whatever it is for your flow state, and do it and commit to it. You know, guys like us, high performing individuals trying to do everything in the world wearing, you know, bearing the weight every day of all the responsibilities and life work,

balance all that. It's like you said, it's almost unachievable, Nick but if you can find something that you can give yourself once a week, an hour, two hours, if the gym, if you're working on the gym and you're thinking about work, it's not it find something else. No, you got to find someone where you can unplug and detach and just be free. It's recorded for everything in your body and your brain. And once I started doing that, I just realized I do better at work. I'm better at

home. I'm better at everything. Totally charged with that. That might be advice for me, but anyone listening, I think Kyle's that advice goes to anyone listening. You know, it's advice I know I need to take, and I will continue to try to prioritize that awesome, great, great with you boys. Always a pleasure. Yeah, likewise, I've been following Kyle's Harnish workwear for years. I literally begged him to send me those pants, and he just refused to do it. And he was like, I need

these to be perfect. And it's funny, I'll never forget he he sent them to me. I was wearing them, and I kept wearing them. I wore them at work, but I kept wearing them when I would go to the hockey games with the kids, because kids, because the rinks, the rink is cold, but I didn't want to wear, like, insulated pants. And he goes, You know what I keep hearing? I'm like, we were talking. He goes, I keep hearing all the guys I'm giving them to. They're all wearing them at the hockey rinks because

they're warm. And I was like, That's so funny. He goes, and all the other dads have Lululemon pants on, and they're shivering because they're cold. I'm like, that's, that's where I

wear them the most, I know. But yeah, so guys, if it's not clear, you know, we're partnering with Harnish work where, you know, big believer in what they're doing and what Kyle is doing and the ethos behind what he's doing with work where is is obviously very aligned with myself, personally, Tyler, and what we're doing with modern craftsman and the creator ones are the pants that we're talking about. So I mean, there's a massive discount on them, if you're part of our community.

The link will be below, so you can get that. And I know that they have some other additional discounts on the Pioneer one, which is a ultra heavy weight hoodie, which is also pretty dope. And then, of course, if you guys need t shirts, I think they're the best fitting t shirt that I mean, that I've ever

worn. And truthfully, and I'm not just saying this, but I actually don't have any other T shirts in my drawer, except for NS builders, modern craftsman and blank Harnish T shirts, because they fit so well. Yeah, they just sent us a long sleeve one too. That's super nice. I've never been a long sleeve guy, but I did put it on and it fits just like the t shirt. Yeah, it's nice, obviously, if you weren't aware of what a long sleeve t shirt is, it's

like a normal t shirt, but it has long sleeves. It's just like that. Imagine a short sleeve t shirt with longer sleeves. That's that's where my mind's at. So I feel, dude, my head is like, I people are talking to me, even the girls are are talking to me. And I'm like, I don't know. I just can't hear anything, like everything. I'm like, Just say it louder. I can't hear you. Everything's blurry and fuzzy.

I definitely, I mean being man, yeah, I I definitely should not have raced on Sunday, but it's like we're just talking about it's, you know, being driven and not wanting to have any excuses for anything. And I don't know, I feel like it was like a test to see how far I could push myself. Should probably have a little bit more self control than that, lessons learned, and definitely no sympathy from my

wife. She's like, I don't care. Go to the doctor. It's like, yeah, we'll say I found some, like, I found some, some antibiotics from like, two years ago that I got from the doctor. And I was like, maybe I'll just take these. She's like, go to the doctor. I was like, Alright, I won't take these, and I won't go to the doctor. Alright guys, hey, head over to modern craftsman.co. Sign up for a

newsletter. I've been sharing some more behind the scenes stuff of what we got going on, or what I got going on on a weekly basis, just dealing with some of the bullshit, some of the stuff I wish I could talk about in the podcast or or or even on social media. But sometimes just isn't as comfortable of a platform as writing it out in email. And then, of course, we have all our weekly updates for the podcast,

you know, the episodes that come out on a weekly basis. And we're just, you know, also providing a ton of stuff that we're working on. We want to be helpful. We want to continue to help this community, and if you're interested in any of that, and obviously some discounts on some badass workwear, sign up for our newsletter, modern craftsman.go. Do check. I trust my mama. You're no match for my bad karma. You