And of course now there are all kinds of theories about how John Trump taught Donald Trump all the secrets of Tesla technology and like imbued him with all of his knowledge of nuclear power, which is like that probably didn't take very long.
I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry o'she I.
Served in the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover all around the world.
And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.
Although we don't usually look at it this way, we created conspiracies.
In our operations. We got people to believe things that weren't true.
Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the news almost every day.
We'll break them down for you to determine whether they could be real or whether we're being manipulated.
Welcome to Mission implausible. So we grew up in CIA, and so we lived through sort of this view from some people that the CIA is involved in all kinds of stuff, which is true, much of which is not true. Well, today we're going to talk about sort of the mother of conspiracy theories, called the Montalk Project, where all sorts of these government conspiracies come home to roost.
I love the Montalk Project. It's the kitchen sink of conspiracy theories. It's got everything from monsters to Nazis, to Tibetans to time portals.
Yeah. Well, what's interesting is, you know, this thing sort of started by a couple of people writing about this old army base and suggesting there's all kinds of government projects, secret, nefarious government projects were happening there. But what sort of has made it continue over time is that it has become so filled with like interesting and weird stuff that
Hollywood picked up on it. So the X Files and Men in Black and even more recently the Stranger Things often are built on this original conspiracy called Montalk Project.
It's a very American thing too. There's this American view that somehow the government, while it's collecting taxes and it's involved in national security and we have an army and doing healthcare and all these different kind of things, it is at its base and a presser who is ready to sort of take away the rights of American citizens. So Americans have to always be watching that the nefarious and dangerous government is coming for them.
You and I, having been in CIA, know just how screwed up and deeply human these organizations can be.
They're made up of the same citizens who worry about these kind of things, and the notion that a large group of people could keep some sort of secret that other Americans are being oppressed is unlikely. Frankly, the jfk assassination. I have to say, if I worked in the CIA for thirty years and if I got a hint that the CIA was involved in killing John F. Kennedy, I would be yelling to the rooftops right now about it.
And so this is a story of a couple guys who wrote a book in the early nineties, really before the Internet, and one of them claims that he had been working in this place and repressed memories had come back to him about all these variety of things that you mentioned at the outset. And so we're going to talk to a guy that we've talked to before who's
written some on this who is it Today? We have Mike Rothschild again for those who don't remember, he's a journalist and conspiracy theory expert, which is perfect for us. The author of several books, including Jewish Space Lasers. The Rothschilds and two hundred years of conspiracy theories, and so today we're going to talk about the mon Talk project. And to kick us off, why can you give us just a little bit over your what exactly that is?
Sure?
So the mon Talk project is this conspiracy theory that emerged in the early nineties that the US government had been using a naval base at the tip of Long Island Sound to conduct experiments in time travel, opening dimensional portals, mind control, making ships disappear, as sort of any horror from extra dimensions that you can imagine was being experimented
on in this secret military base in Montalk. And the proof was that a monster washed up on the shore in Montalk, and they were all these books written and all of these repressed memories came out, and I hate to sort of get to the end at the beginning here, but there's really no evidence any of this is true, and actually quite a bit that it's not true, that none of it ever happened. But that's the very basics
of it. And there's this kind of long string of authors who sort of pile on one thing after another onto what is the mon talk project, and it's almost kind of unfollowable at this point, it's become kind of like a cinematic universe of weird stuff.
Mike, can you walk us through sort of the main points. The name five or six conspiracy theories that make up the Montalk projects.
So the overall umbrella of the Montalk Project is that there was a secret base built at an actual US Army camp called Camp Hero to the tip of Long Island Sound, and that's been a military base actually since the American Revolution.
It's got a.
Perfect position to essentially keep watch over Long Island Sound. And there was a base there for a while. It was radar and it was anti aircraft missiles. It was shut down in the eighties and it was basically just left there to lie fallow. So the story is that the Phoenix Project was using Camp Hero and then a big underground bunker there to essentially test out mind control technology and they were using it on orphans that wouldn't
be missed by society. They were subjecting these children to massive electromagnetic radiation hits in this contraption called the Montak Chair, and they were using it to essentially open a portal to another dimension, and you can go down a million different rabbit holes of what's actually going on, Alien ships, fifty foot titanium structures, all of it's funded by Nazi gold and being supervised by Nazis who are part of the Order of the Black Sun. I mean, you just
go on and on. But the basics of it is that there's this underground bunker that is being used to open a portal using these psionic powers of orphans.
So tell us a little bit about the authors of this original nineteen nine two book that sort of kicked this off.
So this wasn't really a thing until a book from nineteen ninety two called the Montalk Project Experiments in Time. It's written primarily by this guy, Preston Nichols. Also there's another author by line, Peter Moon, and Nichols claims that he had repressed memories of working at this base called Camp Hero, and it was involving also the Philadelphia Experiment, which was this supposed plot to make a warship disappear.
There's a movie made about it, and it's a really good clue that you're dealing with very creative fiction when you start talking about repressed memories, because the science behind that is very pseudoscientific, very dodgy, but It's that kind of thing where you can't prove that it didn't happen, and the authors adding more and more and more detail to it actually makes.
It more believable. And you find this a lot in the conspiracy theory world.
A conspiracy theory that's really vague doesn't catch on, but one that has a ton of irrelevant and ridiculous and contradictory details is actually going to somehow be more convincing because it feels more thought out.
So, like, what was the reality of what was happening there?
There was nothing happening. It was a decommissioned military installation. Some of it was unsafe because of chemicals. You know. They had anti aircraft missiles stored there. They had a big radar installations, but of course, as the Soviet threat transitioned from bombers to missiles, you didn't need missile sites in the domestic US. So the site was shut down, I think in nineteen eighty four, and it just was
there growing weeds for quite a long time. And now Camp Hero is actually a state park where hundreds of thousands of people go. The installations are still there, you can tour some of them, but right now it's a sort of a testament to reclaiming land. It's not a testament to psionic powers or portals. It's like go walk in the woods.
I know that. And looking into this, one of the roots of this was also mk ultra, right, which is something that goes back to the nineteen fifties, like seventy eighty years ago.
That's a really good point in that the government has done a lot of things like mk Ultra, like DARPA, like you know, some of the psionics experiments where they are messing around with things that maybe you should not be messed around with. But that's easy to take and spin it into a fiction. And I think it's also important to understand that the first mom Talk book came out in nineteen ninety two. This was a time when distrust of the federal government was really starting to peak.
With the Clinton years. You had a whole slew of really major conspiracy theory books that came out. So it was another instance of a really well told story that caught on at the right time and touched on things that were really getting into the zeitgeist at that time, that were based on certain things that had been declassified and certain sort of suspicions about the government.
So as the coldor was really sort of turning warmer and eventually hot. There was real concern that the Soviets may have found a way to get involved in mind control, and there was a concern that perhaps the Soviets, because it was an ideology, might have success in turning Westerners towards Communism. And there was a concern that maybe the Soviets had found some sort of technique of mind control, whether it was a drug or some sort of technology.
And so Ellen Dulles, who then headed the CIA, put together a small team inside the CAA to try to see what they could do to study this idea of mind control. It was led by a scientist inside the CIA, and they tested a variety of things, using LSD and shock therapy and a variety of other things to see if they could find a way to create super soldiers or mind control. There really isn't anything to mind control, but at the time there was such fear that we
were falling behind in mind control. The CIA probably went way too far and trying to explore it, and in the process took advantage of subjects they were They were testing people in prisons for example, Whitey Bulger, the famous Boston criminal, claims that he was part of a test in the mk Ultra process where they were taking prisoners
and testing them with drugs and such things. So mk Ultra is sort of an ugly aside in CIA's history, and it was something that the Church Commission looked at as part of their reforms in the nineteen seventies.
And to be clear, mk Ultra was a failure, complete failure. They never found any way of mind control. And two, in light of what we've been talking about, there's an interesting lash up to Hollywood because the Manchurian candidate, the initial movie had come out where the Chinese had actually been able to control in the movie plot to control a presidential candidate.
So in the early nineteen seventies, a couple of congressional committees reformed, the Church Commission in the Senate and Pike Commission in the House to look at the CIA and FBI and this variety of problems atrocities that were occurring.
And those two committees came up with a wide variety of recommendations that eventually led to changes in the intelligence community to include providing for the first time ever official congressional oversight means by which presidents have to formally request covert action and action being taken by the intelligence community.
It was ended up being a very important point for US intelligence reform after sort of the early years of post World War Two, where intelligence community was just trying to fight off the Soviets in any way they could, and oftentimes using some of the same techniques that the Soviets were using themselves.
And it revealed and ouded some of the past sins of the US intelligence community, some of the mistakes that they made.
There's a famous case in our world, in the espionage world of George Blake, who was a British intelligence officer who was in Seoul, Korea, who has taken prisoner by the North Koreans and kept in North Korea. While in North Korea, he was recruited by the Soviets to become a long term spy for the Russians. And it's like, how could this happen? How could a good British boy end up becoming a spy for the Russians. And we've
seen it even in our times. Jerry and I like when Americans are scared, they fall in for sort of views either conspiracy theories or they want their government to do all kinds of things that they might not want to when they're not scared.
Well, there's always going to be a need for conspiracy theories that cast the government as these sort of outlandish villains in lab coats and doing secret things to kids. I mean, anything involving like kids is always going to pique people's interests.
All right, So let's take a short break and we'll be back in to talk more about.
This, and we're back.
So, as John said, Americans that were held captive in North Korea who were subjected to imprisonment and brainwashing as best they could by the Chinese and by the Russians and by the North Koreans, some of these people actually did change their minds. And of course we talk about that now as Stockholm syndrome. George Blake, it's not like he just turned and joined the North Korean side, which
he did to become a Russian agent. He also watched the people around in his comrades being tortured and killed by the North Koreans and Russians. He watched atrocities happen, and something happened inside of his mind where he switched sides for whatever the psychological reasons were.
This effort brainwashing has come around to a point now where we realize there are Soviets and the Russians who were doing things to try to influence opinion and influence Americans. It's actually a lot easier than we thought. You know, we've seen at our elections and recently. If you just pump information over and over into a system, people start to believe things that aren't true, and it fits into that part of our mind where conspiracies exist. It's not as hard as you think.
Yeah, it has never required drugs or complex light shows and things to make people think certain things. You just tell them things they want to believe, and you do it a lot, and you do it in a flashy way. You know, whether it's selling you chicken nuggets or whether it's selling you Donald Trump. It's not that difficult, and it's a lot easier than I think all of these conspiracy theories would required.
It's just tell people's.
Stuff that they want to believe, and do it in a way that's believable.
I think sometimes science is sort of beyond a lot of people, and so when scientists look into something, it can be then scary to people who don't follow and think that maybe there's more stuff going on.
So on the Nazi gold, I spent a lot of time in German and I found that interesting, And of course there is a small speck of truth in that as well, insofar as there was something called Operation paper Clip at the end of World War Two, which was a way to gather together some of Germany's best scientists, some fairly nasty individuals involved in their UTWO program, involved
in their nuclear program. But the reason they were being gathered together and brought to the West was so that the Russians didn't get a hold of them to build a Russian bomb. And some of these scientists were brought to the US. And it's certainly possible I couldn't find it my research. They would have ended up in Montak because that was one of our in the fifties and late forties, one of our most advanced radar stations.
Right.
And as for Nazi gold in Europe, there is this story of a trainload of gold that was hidden. Trainload of gold did disappear somewhere in Nazi occupied Poland, and people today are still looking for it, and.
There's also real life historical mysteries that probably are never going to be solved. The Nazi Gold, I mean, there's the Japanese equivalent with Yamashida's Gold and the Philippines and people are still looking for that. There are real mysteries and real unanswered questions, and as long as there are unanswered questions, there will be people who provide the answers.
Is there any evidence that these kind of conspiracies are pushed by foreign actors or is this an earlier one that just seems to be wholly domestic in scope?
This, to me, I believe is completely domestic. I've never seen any indication that there was any kind of foreign pushing of something like Montalk, and I don't know that there would be. I mean, I don't know that there would be any benefit from that because it is still in that sort of cool story mode rather than sort of societal division mode.
Might take us into the Montalk Monster's truth and fiction.
Sure, So the Montalk Monster was this I think it was two thousand and eight when it washed up on the shore, and it was this sort of blobby bit of flash and people like, ah, that's proof, that's proof of the monsters. Coming through the portals, and of course we love stuff like that. We love cryptids, we love Bigfoot, we love the Lockness monster. You know, in this case, what they think was probably just the decayed remittens of a raccoon that washed on the shore. But that's not fun.
And most people are going to go, well, it's just something that got eaten up by LG and washed up on the shore. But a few people go, that's proof of the thing that I already believed was Trump.
So we've discussed monsters, let's discuss Nicholas Tesla. Sure, how does he fit into all this?
So Tesla is one of those figures where again the mythology completely outstrips the reality. You know, Tesla obviously a very important inventor, a very important figure in science, but by the end of his life he was kind of mentally debilitated by very severeo CD other mental illnesses. He's writing down stuff in his notebooks that it's just impossible think, you know, death rays and time travel. And of course at one point the FBI, I think, had somebody go
through those notes. Well that person was Donald Trump's uncle.
Ah.
Interesting, so yep, it was John Trump, who was a physicist went through Tesla's notebooks to find anything useful for the war effort and basically said, these are the ravings of a lunatic. None of this stuff is real at all. And of course now there are all kinds of theories about how John Trump taught Donald Trump all the secrets of Tesla technology and like imbued him with all of his knowledge of nuclear power, which is like that probably
didn't take very long. And you know, this Tesla worship is very real in certain corners of the fringe, and now it's all bound up with Trump and all like these secret weapons and stuff. But anything Tesla was talking about at the end of his life probably was a delusional raving Mike, as always, thank you very much.
It's been great, heavy on the show.
Well, thanks for having me back. Guys, this was great.
All right, everybody, let's bring in John Star, who's done a lot of research. Sitting on the toilet over the last thirty minutes.
John, what did you come up with? The extent of my research was to interview one person, but that one person is very key to the story. He is a documentary filmmaker who made a movie called The Montak Chronicles in twenty fifteen. And that is the movie that really kicked off this conspiracy theory and put it into the public realm.
It's a Christmas movie. I think you take the family to something like that.
It's full of magic and joy. So I'm going to play for you a selected section of my interview.
My name is Christopher Garretano, and I am a movie maker, and I wanted to do something on the unknown and unexplained, and I was more interested in cryptozoological factors. And then my buddy said, listen, man, you live near mon Talk, why don't you make it about the Montalk Project? And I remembered reading that little book and had no interest.
What little book was that?
Well, it was it was by Preston Nichols Experiments and Time the Montalk Project, and I felt it was kind of a redic and very flimsy and thin. However, further conversation with this guy John, he said, yeah, but there's another aspect to that, and I think it's a cover up. I think all of the alien stuff and all of that other stuff might be a distraction from a very brutal mind control program that involved the kidnapping of runaway
kids and perhaps murder. And then he showed me a little videotape of al Buelick that was an elderly man that was telling this Montac tale, and he was like the archetype of every old crazy man in the movies that I love so innocently. That's how I started. I was like, let's go interview these crazy old guys and see what they tell.
At that point, did you think it was a real situation or did you think they were just making it up or delusional?
It was the weirdest thing I ever stumbled upon, because most of the time when you have a science fiction type story or someone's claim to have been abducted by an alien or you know, it has those basic elements that we all kind of inherently know from either fiction or hearing these stories and shows like Unsolved Mysteries or way back with in search of When I heard them, it was this like weird, almost perverse mixture of brutality, abuse, murder. These things are not normal when it comes to like
alien stories. And then it got into drugging people, and it got into doing horrible things to people, and then it was connected to Nazi scientists, and that's a real thing. We can talk about that and there's this conspiracy that tortures and ideas of experimental torture were brought on here in the United States and used in government, secret government programs and the Montalk program.
What would these guys claiming happened to them?
Each of them had a similarly constructed story. There weren't too many differences. And what they claimed happened that each of them reluctantly were incorporated or absorbed into a program for each of their very particular unique set of skills. And so Preston Nichols, he's one of the elder of the group, or was. He's since passed, many of them have.
He was acquired because of his engineering, his electronic skills, but also he was supposed to start implanting suggestion into the minds of these children teenagers, and they are now rebuilt into a psychic soldier and perhaps a government assassin, a lah you know what some people have suggested. Sir Han Sir Haan was.
So he was working for the government to create those soldiers.
They all claim that they entered the base through Brookhaven Laboratories, which is further west. And according to al Bielick, who was one of the elders of the group group. He claimed that there was an underground train that went from Brookhaven Laboratories to the Montalk Base underground, while according to al Bulick and Preston Nichols and Duncan Cameron and Stuart's word Low, they suggest that most of the action was
happening underneath the ground. And I started to consider, Okay, these guys are talking about Tillians and praying mantis people and you know, stuff I've only seen in science fiction. And I said, is it possible that these guys were drugged up? That maybe they were used for some reason, but drugged up in case they would ever say what happened there. Now they're out there telling the story of praying mantis people and monsters drinking draino like these are the stories they.
Told, and.
You know, no one's going to believe them, but something tells me, at least Preston, Nichols and al Blick believed that something happened there, that they were part of something. For what reason, I can't tell you. It could be, you know, mental if but why would someone go to these great lengths. Neither of them ever really benefited from this. They received more ridicule than anything else.
So what changed your mind in the making of this to open your mind to that possibility.
So it was associative type programs that I had no knowledge of before going in, like in Kultra, like the Holmesburg prison experiments, the Tuskegee medical experiments, and then the hearings in the nineties where Bill Clinton was apologizing for so called radiation experiments and the Tuskegee medical experiments and saying that's the past, this is in US, we don't
do this now. So if that was happening there, then I started to think, well, of course it was happening in other places, and you discover that it was that, maybe I start to consider that these things were truly happening at Montak.
Have people been writing in with new clues and new information?
Yeah, a lot a lot of people that have talked to me claim they were part of it. And then I talked to the guy and he was in and out of jail, and he was in trouble and he wanted to wear a ski mask and disguise's voice. He was more believable to me because someone who had grown up going through all that trauma, being drugged, beaten, then thrown back out on the street is going to have scars.
You seem to be suggesting that it's possible that people who suffered other traumas and abuse have created the Montak Project as a fiction to explain to themselves what they otherwise couldn't.
I considered that along the way too, where these people abused and they're just making it up. And I know in psychiatry there is a word for that, and they apply that to alien abduction too.
Has there been any other evidence that you've uncovered physical evidence or yes, historical records.
Yeah. So finally I had the resources to hire geophysicists and went to Camp Hero and use something called electric resistivity imagery, where you would have these kind of spikes that would be hammered into the ground. What he found was very similar to many unmarked grave sites that he's found in the past. He says it could be other things, but it is very similar to a mass grave site.
The underground could have been secret but used for something else, ammunition storage or a record storage.
Sure they have bunkers and things like that, but even on record, it's dismissed. They say there's nothing, there's nothing there. Ammo was stored inside the batteries where the sixteen inch guns were. No matter how many people and we put in foyer requests, government officials, park officials, they all say, no, there's nothing there.
From what you've learned in this process, you believe this is very possible. Whether it happened to mon talk or not, not so much, but.
Somewhere using people under false pretenses for horror horrific experiments is possible that aspect of it. I have never seen a UFO, I've never seen an alien being. I've seen some curious things in my life, but I can say that I do believe it's a strong possibility that something like the Holmesburg prison experiments or mk Ultra did occur at Campuro.
All right, John, based on your discussion with him, you know what, what's your take?
Well? I think Christopher himself seems kind of iffy on whether Camp Hero is a location where the government did weird stuff or he's just more convinced that the government does weird stuff somewhere, whether it's a Campuro or not, who knows. He did find it very significant that there is underground areas that weren't on the charts and maps for Campuro. I think, yeah, of course there's an army base. You're going to have underground chambers you don't want people
to know about. Could be putting weapons there, it could be putting paperwork. Just because there's underground rooms doesn't mean that fact of the government was torturing children. There a lot of other uses for underground rooms than torturing children. However, he did talk a lot about New government's history and experimenting on people with mind control and drugs, and whether anything happened in Montalk or not is an independent question
from whether the government is doing that or not. I see on our screen here that Adam Davidson is He's still checking his email, but I think he's ready to join us. So I'm going to pass the ball to Adam. But I did want to let all of you know. I think you knew already that Stranger Things was inspired by the Montalk Project. But Stranger Things was originally called Montalk.
That was the original name of the show. Prior to that, Ryan Murphy, the creator of American Horror Story and Glee, he had a show called The Montalk Project that didn't go but that was in twenty eleven.
Well, I actually think the point that this story is so appealing to Hollywood. Is a really good way in to talking about the role that conspire theories play, sometimes the very real financial role they play in the lives of people who share them or are attracted to them. Let's take into that after this break all right back to the show. So, gentlemen, I've had this question for a long time. Like I've heard about mk Ultra, I
had not heard about the Montak project before this. And so when you were in Cia, did any of this come up, like people wondering if there are extrasensory perception, if there are telekinesists, did that come up in your day to day work.
I'll let us the first No, I never did, but it was an odd time. But I think the early years of the Cold War there was a real fear in America that we could be obliterated, or that the Russian hordes would come across the fords in Europe, and Jerry and I felt a little bit of that. For example, after nine to eleven, the fear in America that there will be more attacks, that this could happen to us.
And in those circumstances, in an effort to try to keep people safe, governments have often gone too far, and there was a view at the time that the Russians were experimenting with mind control. We had found some people who had agreed to spy for the Russians in certain circumstances, and it didn't seem to make sense. There was even popular movies at the time about how the Russians had some sort of special ability to control minds, like the
Manchurian candidate. And so what happened is long before Jerry and I joined the CIA, the head of the Technical Services Department, which did everything from disguises and gear like you see in the James Bond movies to poisons and other things, started a program which was code named mk Ultra, which was meant to try to test and use drugs in other ways to try to find if this was at all possible. Is it possible to get people to tell the truth when they don't want to, Is it
possible to control minds? Is it possible to create super soldiers? And in the process, as you can imagine, they did too much. My understanding is they used people who weren't aware of what they were getting into, and these other kind of.
Things I'd throw in there that a lot of it had to do at least when we're on the inside, explained by ignorance in those days. I don't think people really before Timothy Leary people understood what LSD was right. I mean, there's another element to this, and let's throw politicians under the bus. Something I love is oftentimes CIA responds to what policymakers want to know, and people will say to the agency or to whomever, to the military.
So is this possible? Let me know, the Agency had an office for years where they were studying far seeing right, whether you could with your mind sort of imagine Russian submarines. And it turned out there were a couple of influential senators who demanded they do that and demanded that the money be put in there. And I think people sort of scoffed at it on the inside and it produced nothing. But this was something that was posed on the agency.
Is that the men who steer at Goat's thing?
Yeah, My buddy John Ronson wrote the book. It's a really fun book.
If Uri Galer could like really bend spoons for those of us old enough to remember that, if that power existed and we could replicate it in a lib that would be really useful for like messing up Soviet missiles, nuclear missiles, if you could like mess up their inside.
You know, Jerry and I were in the operational overseas part of things, and by the time we were in there was no discussion of drugs that could help you get better information or get or truth serums or anything. In fact, oftentimes for our job, we had to drink a lot and I always would say, is there anything Is there a pill or something I can take?
Oh, I don't feel like.
Death the next day? And even no, we didn't have anything like that, So, I mean, that would have been a more practical thing that would have been useful to me in my services.
Conspiracy theories solve problems for certain people. They can solve problems for politicians who want to say there's a like, there's a simple story. It's not just Oh, my voters are older, uneducated white men who our economy has kind of left behind, and I don't really have any solutions for them. We can say it's the Jews, or it's black people, or it's this, or it's that. You can see why that's useful for that audience, even if it's bad for society. But also like Hollywood is such a
direct like it's hard to come up with ideas. I have this one friend, John Stearn. He hasn't had a new idea in like fourteen years, and that's his whole job. So I just find it helpful to think, who are they helping.
Make inner said or something? For every complex problem, there's an answer that is clear, simple and wrong.
Right.
They serve an important purpose and they make people feel better. But there's a downside too many of them.
Oh yeah, there's definitely a downced. I'm not trying to say they're good in some objective way. I'm just saying they're useful for people, just like a gun that can be useful, or saren gas can be useful, doesn't mean it's good. By the way, do you, guys, when an officer or an agent dies in the field of duty, do you do what journalists do and think of all
the ways they fucked up? Like I find whenever someone dies, we're very sad and very upset when a journalist dies, like in a war situation, and it you know, I've lost some real friends and.
It's awful, it's truly awful.
But then I've also noticed and I think others have remarked on this that pretty soon we're talking about the choices they made that put them in harm's way that we wouldn't necessarily have made. And I always see that as our effort to like avoid the real terror, which is that could have happened to any one of us a million times.
It's a good point, though. The world is complex and chaotic, and yeah, you have to create some sort of narrative otherwise you're worried that anything could happen at any time and you have no control. It's about control. I think it's about control. Yeah, of your circumstances, of your life, of your beliefs and your thoughts and your lifestyle matter,
and you know, frankly, maybe it doesn't. Yeah. I mean the longer we talk, the less likely that we're going to solve these issues issues here, So we'll have to take this up next time on the next episode of Mission Implausibles.
Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission Implausible. It is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable Pictures for iHeartMedia,