8. Vamoose

From my Heart Radio, this is missing on nine eleven, The story of one woman who vanished on the eve of history and my quest to find her. I'm your host, John Wallzac. In November two thousand four, a man named Frank Warren created an art project called post Secret. The idea was simple and brilliant. Write a secret on a postcard, mail it to him anonymously, and if it was good,

he would post it on his blog. It quickly blew up, landing Frank's speaking gigs and book deals and permeating pop culture to appearing most notably in the music video for the hit two thousand five song Dirty Little Secret by the All American Rejects. Post Secret had something for everyone. Writer's got catharsis a chance to share deep, dark personal truths. Readers got voyeurism plus an opportunity to see who shared their secrets. And Frank got thousands of postcards, including the

nine eleven postcard. By now it's one of his most famous. He even incorporated it into a Ted talk. It's a remarkable, mind boggling singular secret, the idea that someone quote died on nine eleven. But hey, guess what they're alive. I mean, it's bonkers. Of course, I wanted to learn more about the postcard. When was it mailed, where was it mailed from?

Could snay Ha have sent it? And by the way, I'll put it on Twitter at at John wallzac j O n w A l c z A K. In June two thousand and six, snay Haunts Disappearance got a burst of attention when New York Magazine ran an article on it. That article, by Mark Fast is the reason why it didn't just fade away, why it lives on today.

For the first time, people seriously considered the idea that snay Ha used nine eleven to run away, to voluntarily disappear, to essentially fake her owned So I wanted to know did Frank get the mysterious postcard before or after the article ran. If before, I'd be more inclined to think it's legit. If after, though, especially right after, I'd be more inclined to think it's a hoax, a fake, bullshit

secret sent in by publicity hungry crank. Unfortunately, Frank wouldn't tell me when he got the postcard, so I bypassed him www dot archive dot org copies of his old site, and then there it was. The postcard first published on March fourth, two thousand five, fifteen months before the New York article. Now, obviously that doesn't prove it's legit, but for argument's sake, let's say that it is someone thought to have died on eleven actually survived and never came

forward except through this anonymous postcard. Well, who sent it. The list of possible candidates is extremely short because there's irrefutable proof that most nine eleven victims died d n A, eyewitnesses, phone calls, etcetera. With snay Haa, though there's nothing, no evidence. So yes, she is at the top of my list of who could have sent it if it's legit. Let me say also that although Frank wouldn't tell me when

he got the postcard. He did send me a high resolution image of it, and not gonna lie, the first thing I did was throw it into Photoshop to see if I can make out anything like a postmark through the image on the front alas no luck, but it was worth a shot. Finally, I asked an art expert to look at the postcard. He told me that whoever drew the towers likely used either a graphite pencil or

soft charcoal. That's stuck with me. Remember in the mid nineties, snay Hall left med school for a year and spent six or seven months painting in Italy. Many people who knew her, including Dr E one of her supervised there's at Cabrini Medical Center, said she wanted to be an artist, not a doctor. I can't describe her paintings and detail

I vaguely remember. I just remember she was always sketching, and I remember commenting at times that they were beautiful, and she would write she liked writing, and so I saw some for writing. She like kind of showed them to me when she was helping me write something. So when you say sketching, um, do you remember was it pencil? Charcoal pencil or charcoal. I don't remember colors. The first time I spoke to Dr E by phone, I asked if she knew about the postcard, if she had ever

seen it. She said no, So I emailed it to her. Wow. Yeah, it's really creepy, right, that's very bizarre for whoever said that, whoever sent that. Doctor E has long believed that snay How used nine eleven as cover to escape to start a new life. The snay How she knew, both professionally and personally, was unhappy. She wanted to escape. Is it just your gut feeling or do you have you have anything to indicate that that might have been the case. No,

So just to go up feeling. But just knowing her, I'm like, oh, there's no way, Like she's out there. I really believe she's alive. Just my strong, strong up feeling. I just knew her personality too. Well. I don't see her. I just don't see your running to the the building. Number one, Sorry, I don't see her doing that. And number two, I she was so like, kind of manipulative and bright, and

you know she could play people, you know. Mark Boguton, the attorney hired by snayhouse husband Ron after nine eleven doesn't buy it could be that she ran away for whatever reason, was living in European drinking espresso at some cafe somewhere in either large meetings the size or small

European city. It's one possibility. But in order for that to be feasible, they have to he should have some means of support that have to have been some type of evidence of preparation, bank withdrawals, credit card expenditures, anything like that. And they went through all the credit card records, records, bank records, they went through you know, whatever computer history she had and things like that. There's no evidence of any type of preparation, any means of financial preparation for

any type of fugitive secretive existence. And also there were just some basic things like when Ron got to the apartment, her travel papers with her passport was in the apartment. I believe even he's like, her eyeglasses were in the apartment. So people that say that she just decided she saw what happened and decided to up and flee and take advantage of the moment, that's so, that's crazy. How many people did that. I'm like, look at this. The trade center.

I'm going to Paris and we will find me. Now, I'm not letting, I'm not thinking my glasses the right passport. No, No, that's crazy. It's just loot. Chris, He's not wrong. It is ludicrous at least the idea. Retired NYPD detective Richard Stark, who investigated the case, also thinks it's crazy. How does somebody just get a new passport? No, I d that quick and just disappear. But she planned it. But I don't see that either. Would that be so hard though?

If I'm having personal problems and you know, this is twenty years ago, so when technology was more in its infancy to what convinces you that it would be so difficult to disappear? Because so many people, so many thousands and tens of thousands of people do it every year. What makes you doubt that? In particular because it a closeness to her mother. But she couldn't do that to a family, not Ron maybe I don't know, but father, no way, they were very close family photos I saw

and she told her mother every day. This is the key piece of evidence most people cite to write off the idea that snay Haw used nine eleven as cover to voluntarily disappear. She loved her mom. She wouldn't do that to her family. I get it. But every year, all over the globe, people run off. It's an age old story. Father's abandoned children, husbands, their wives, children, their parents. No one wants to think someone they love could just

run away, but thousands do every year. White Detective Stark, you might say, well, what about her passport, her credit card, her glasses. Wouldn't she need papers, wouldn't she need help? I'll concede that, yes, it would be nearly impossible for someone to spontaneously run off and escape detection without some help. But remember, say stayed somewhere on the night of September ten. She stayed with someone, and that person never came forward. So can I see that person helping Snayha escape? Yes?

I can say Snayha woke up on nine eleven, turn on a TV and saw the attacks. Maybe she'd decided to stay put wherever she slept a night of the tenth, and then later decided not to go home, or say she was walking home, saw the attacks, turned away and melted back into the city. Then what multiple studies have examined the behavior of people who voluntarily and spontaneously disappeared and were later found in a paper titled Living Absence The Strange Geographies of Missing People. One woman said, I

felt free when I left. As soon as I walked out the door, I felt free. Researchers found that women were more likely than men to plan in absence, but planning usually occupied only a small window of time. Many people who chose to disappear did so without any idea of how long they would actually be gone. They just decided to leave, then figured out what to do. Most began by walking in urban environments. One woman told researchers my mind was going nineteen to a dozen. I could

sit still. I had to keep moving because my mind was in such disarray. The pacing was to try to keep up with the anxiety I was feeling inside. I just desperately needed to keep on the move all the time. And then when I started walking along in the streets, I was walking really quite quickly. Initially, the decision to move was just a physical need to move. The pacing up and down, and the stomach churning was getting so intense it was painful. So the only thing that seemed

to relieve it was walking fast. Researchers learned that people who voluntarily vanished went to great lengths to keep their location secret. They changed their physical appearance and clothes. They wore dark clothing and or clothing to conceal their face. They used fake names, and their immediate journeys were nonlinear, characterized by circles, loops, or squares lost in chaotic thought.

When considering whether or not to return home to family and friends, they were racked with gilt, uncertainty, and fear fear of how they would be received as that person who did that to their family voluntarily. A second study characterized the absence of people who voluntarily disappeared as quote

accidentally deliberate, or enacted as an unplanned crisis. A third study listed common factors which led adults to voluntarily disappear, including historic and current traumatic experiences, strong emotions related to being unable to cope, feeling trapped and powerless to talk about or share their feelings, and stress and depression. Initially, when they escaped, they felt elation, but soon that jubilant

feeling was replaced by quote crisis mobility. They tried hard to avoid detection to buy space and time to think, to decide whether or not to go home. I knew I had to stay away from authority, and I had to stay away from people I knew because they were already looking for me. For weeks, I just traveled about and after every couple of days, I get myself some fresh clothes, go and get cleaned up and washed and dumped my other stuff. I didn't want to be seen.

I didn't want to be found. That's the hardest thing coming home again. Going away is easy. Shortly after nine eleven, there was at least one possible sighting of snay Ha. On September thousand one, a reverend named Charles Bakin spoke with a woman he thought was snay Ha at a doctor's office in Manhasset, Long Island. He told the NYPD that the woman strongly resembled snay Ha, but he wasn't sure it was her. The woman had a strong Indian accent, he said, but snay Haa did not have an accent.

Neither the NYPD nor her family think the woman Baking spotted was actually snay Ha. Unfortunately I can't interview Bachan. He died in on January two thousand four. The NYPD got an alert that ongoing activity associated with snay Haa was connected to an address in Los Angeles. By this point, Detective Stark was no longer on the case, so a different investigator picked it up. He asked the l a p D to send officers to the address. Was snay

Hall alive? Did she live there? Well, she didn't live there, but Ron did. It appears the alert was a false alarm, some kind of database error. Ron spoke with two l a p D cops then called the NYPD. In July two thousand three, he said he moved back to California, his home state, to restart his life to pick up the pieces. After nine eleven, the new YPD investigator asked Ron again about the mysterious phone call placed at four oh five am on nine eleven from his apartment landline

to his cell phone. Ron Quote thought about it for a while and came to the conclusion he was so distraught over his wife that he woke up still half asleep and called his cell phone to check the messages to see if she called. The investigator told ron Quote, there's no physical evidence that supports the theory that his wife died in the world Trade Center incident. There are no witnesses to her being there. Obviously ron knew that, but still he assumed it's probably how Snaha died at

the Trade Center on nine eleven. When I started investigating this case, one of the first things I did was searched for signs of snay Haa on social media and in public databases along shot I know, so I was surprised when sna did show up in databases after two thousand one, linked to addresses in California, including the home where ron lived, the address the L A p D visited. I also found a LinkedIn profile connected to one of

snay house email addresses, strange for multiple reasons. LinkedIn wasn't even founded until two thousand three, two years after nine eleven. The profile has no activity and no friends. It's listed in the United Air Memorates or U A E. I reached out to that snay Hah, but she never responded,

complicating things and providing a probable answer. There's a different snaiha and without any fillip into U A E. The likeliest answer then to explain why snay has shows up post nine eleven connected to addresses in California and to a LinkedIn profile in the u a E is simple

database errors. Earlier this year, during COVID, I sat down outside freezing at a Brooklyn cafe with an expert on pseudo side faking your own debt, Elizabeth Greenwood, and the author of Playing Dead, a Journey through the world of death fraud. Okay, and tell us a little bit about the book. So, Playing Dead is a non fiction book about what it would take to fake your death in the twenty one century. I found myself mired in Sorry, funny Bonnie is Greenwood's dog. We'll take that when I

get funny, come here, you're being a diva on set. Um. I found myself in a lot of student loan debt, like so many of my generation, to the tune of six figures, and wasn't really thrilled about that. Wasn't really thrilled about my life decisions that brought me there. Um. So I just had the kind of fantasy of, man, what if I could find a rickety country the beach and no extradition policy, It just slip through the cracks.

And a friend of mine very jokingly said, oh, or you could fake your death, And just that idea really got me sent to the races about what is that about? Can people still do that in the twenty one century with all this technology? Can that help you or hinder you? And you know, I wanted to approach this question from a really broad purview, you know, because we have heard so many great pop culture lure about Elvis faking his

death for example. UM So I was just really interested in approaching this topic very broadly, very holistically, to see what this thing is all about. Is it possible to fake your death or to disappear and have nobody find you in or even to say twenty years ago in two thousand, two thousand one, Well, anything's possible. The problem is proving a negative is really hard to do. Right So, if we think the people successfully fake their death or disappeared,

we don't really have proof of that. Of course, if it's a fake death, you don't have a body you can prove to say I did this. I think the real burden of proof kind of falls on people not being found, right, on people um not having um, you know, anything turn up to suggest that they they did in fact fake something. So it's a kind of tricky thing to quote unquote prove. Can you talk about the top motivations people have for faking their own deaths, and then

kind of the breakdown between men and women. So I think that the type of fake death we hear about the most is UH for life insurance fraud. So this is a kind of fake death for profit. It's almost too tempting, right You see that you can take out this policy and pay a fraction of what your eventual payout would be in your death, and people think, well, I don't want to wait and I want to be around for that money. So that's a really common one.

Of course, there's a lot of life insurance fraud cases where they'll try to file the claim still without a body. Um in those take seven years to pay out, or people in certain cases will try to pass off bodies that are not theirs as their own, which is a

whole other thing. And from my experience and from interviewing various private investigators who look at this sort of thing, it does seem to skew very male um this particular type of death fraud, but in general, faking your own death is very much a male thing, right right, So again this gets us into this fishy burden of proof. So the people who fake their deaths and get caught our men. Right, So people who fake their deaths and don't get caught we don't know about. We presume they're dead.

So it's very possible that these are more women who do that. But the ones that we can prove who get caught, do you tend to be men? It's I'm trying to I'm trying to let you speak and not laugh too much as you're speaking. But um, why do you think women would be better at faking their own deaths? Well?

I think that women. If we're going to go with the premise that women don't fake their deaths as much, which I think is true, and they don't fake their deaths because women just you know, are culturally conditioned to be caretakers, to be the people who stick around. We have a term deadbeat dad. We don't have a term called deadbeat mom, even though of course that happens in certain cases. Women are just feel i think, a greater burden of responsibility for their families, for their lives, for

their dependence. So for a woman to fake her death, the motive I think would have to be much more serious than trying to cash out on an insurance fraud policy trying to light out with your second emily, which is another reason men fake their debts. Uh. So, I think when women do fake their deaths, they are doing it for much more serious reasons, usually for threat of violence, usually because they're really trying to save their own lives.

There for the stakes are just a lot higher. And you know, I think that at least in a lot of the men that I spoke with who fake their debts, there was this kind of like oh wow factor that they wanted to share with people, so they would do it, get away with it, and then like lab to people that they did it because they are so proud of themselves.

I don't think women have that same ego thrust. Of course, I'm speaking in very broad generalizations right now, but when I look at the breakdown, when I look at the different cases, that that does seem to be a truism. So in terms of motives, am I pronouncing his last named Frank herne Okay. Frank said, typically his client Frank by the way, helps people disappear um. Typically client motives number one money, number two, violence, and the bronze medal,

occasionally love. And he said between two thousand one to twelve, he helped about fifty people disappear and charged about thirty dollars per case, but that if a woman came to him an imminent danger that he would not charge them. So, what are some of the steps that you would take to fake your own death? And is it something that you think you could do on a spur of the moment if you hadn't been planning it before, and get

away with it. Um. So to the latter part of your question, absolutely not, I think to successfully fake your death. And again this is coming from taking from the experiences of people who did fake their deaths successfully for you know, a matter of years. In some cases, it's really hard to speak to these ones that we just don't know

that are presumed dead. Of course, these are people who put in lots and lots of very thoughtful planning about what they were going to do later on, how they were going to support themselves, how they were really going to stay off the grade or at least cut off

from their previous life. So to the former part of your question about how you would fake your death, this is a question I asked a lot to everyone, from people who did it themselves, to investigators to law enforcement, and they always came back with the same question to meet,

which is, well, who's looking for you? If you are a hedge fund person like Sam Israel the Third who staged his death in two thousand and eight after absconding um with half a billion dollars of investor money, there there's quite a few people looking for you, right, uh, you know, from the FBI to private investigators, sec like

you name it. If you're just a regular Joe who isn't evading law enforcement or legal consequences or debt collectors like of the FBI, or you know, I don't know, mafia level or something, people who really care about their money, right, I think that it's it's a bit easier, So it's really a question about who cares about you. That also

kind of circles back to family. I mean, if you are someone who doesn't have a lot of families strange from your family, where where the family who's left behind and grieving and confused, isn't going to hire a private investigator to look for you, you know, that's also a bit easier. So I think that's that that's really the big question. And when it comes to how you do it and the level of subterfuge. You need to employees

who's looking for you. So some of these cases, I'm gonna list them off, And then I was wondering if you could talk about them the Sam Israel the Third, Benny went John Darwin and then Lisa boosin y Um, can you just kind of run us through and tell us some about these individual cases? Sure? So. Sam Israel the Third was the founder of the Bayou Hedge Fund Group, and in two thousand and eight it came to light

that it had been a rather large ponzi scheme. At that time, it was the largest ponzi scheme in US history until Bernie made Offs came out came to light just a few months later. There's a great book about Sam Israel the Third called Octopus by Gee Lawson, which I highly recommend because Sam faking his death is like the least crazy thing in Sam's story. So, Anny you, he had stolen essentially this money and it all came out.

He faked his death by staging what was to appear suicidal plunge off the Bear Mountain Bridge in upstate New York, about thirty miles north of the city. He parked his car on the bridge in the windshield. In the dust on the windshield wrote suicide is Painless also happens to be the theme song from mash Uh. So he jumped

off the bridge. He landed in construction nets that had been strung below, and you know, kind of mcgever style like hand over hand, crawled out to the other side, to the New York state side, where he was picked up by an accomplice and then lit out in an RV and no one found him for almost a month. He was staying at campgrounds around New York. In New England, he saw himself on America's Most Wanted at one point,

and he turned himself in. So even with this many people looking for him, and people were pressing his family and telling them they were going to go to jail and all this. You know, he turned himself in, So make what you will of that. From the start, absolutely yeah, I think Frank said it that. Do you know the FBI didn't show up and say, oh, he left a suicide note, let's go home. Guys like you know this, this was suspicious from the beginning, again because of the

circumstances of his life at the time. So the next one, Benny went disappeared in nine UH and he left behind a grieving fiance and a four year old daughter from a previous marriage. I guess you know, i'd ask you in relation to that, the people that whose cases you examined, or the people that you interviewed, what kind of role did family play, how close they what are their family? How many people were looking for them? Were you know, certain people were willing to do this even if they

were very close to or loved members of their family. Yeah. The family piece is really interesting because in a lot of cases, some people's family members, whether it's a spouse or a son or daughter, we're in on it with them, especially in the life insurance fraud cases, because you need someone to claim the UH policy the payoff right, so

they'd have to be conspiring with you. In certain cases, people had no idea, and you know, did go to a great deal of trouble and expense and hiring investigators to check into all these things. But family, interestingly enough, is one of the main ways in which people give themselves up. Because I think we have this idea that when we fake our own deaths were leaving behind who

we were becoming someone else. So there's an example in the book to like kind of scale it out for people who don't think about faking their deaths all the time. I mean, I guess there are people out there like that. You know, it's the same idea. If you think about if you were to move to California, say, and you would be this totally different, improved, better optimized version of yourself in California. Well, you get to California and ship you're still you. If that's the gag, that's kind of

the bad news, right. So when people fake their deaths, similarly, they think that they're going to be able to kind of leave behind all the parts of themselves that were crappy, that had committed crimes, that had made all these terrible mistakes, and still maintain some part of them that is precious and is special to them. But do you fake your death, it really means cutting off everyone and everything. It's a

complete severing. So the ways in which a lot of people have gotten caught over the years is because they can't make that clean cut. They still want to call mom on her birthday. You still want to check in on your daughter and see how things are going, and unfortunately you just can't. So We've seen a lot of people get caught in that very way. Those those are the people who whose families actually believe that their loved

ones died. But can you talk a little bit about some of the people whose families we're in on it? So John Darwin is probably the most interesting part of or case in the book. Can you talk about him? Yeah? Absolutely so. John Darwin um is an Englishman and in

two thousand two he staged his death at sea. He's kind of that phrase, okay, I never understand the exception that proves the rule these ages as at see, and did it quite successfully for I believe almost it's a two thousand seven he's got five to six years anyway. John Darwin, English guy. He had worked jobs such as being a teacher, a prison guard, kind of mid level um civil servant jobs, and at the time he had gotten himself into a bit of real estate and credit

card debt. So he had the brilliant idea to stage this kayaking accident at sea collect life insurance along with um wow, an interview. Yeah, what's it called when you Oh my god, I'm saving such a brain fart right now? When you um retire like you're like ever, let's say yes exactly, thank you, thank you, thank you. It would have taken me a long time to get there. Thanks a lot, and in collect pensions that his wife would

collect after he was deceased. So one day in March two thousand two, Darwin packs his kayak with some dry clothes, some food, paddles out, has a few witnesses that see him do it. We're walking their dogs on the beach, capsizes his canoe. They call it canoe in England, it's really kayak here, of course, swims to shore. His wife a few hours later picks him up. She's in on this,

of course, and drives him to the train station. He takes a train to the west coast of England, where he then goes and camps out on the beach for a few months, gets completely gaunt like, grows a weird beard. All this. A few months later his wife at picks him up and brings him back home where he lives next door to his own house. So in the intervening time, she was completely playing the part of the grieving widow. They had two adult sons who thought that their dad

was dead. Um she let them believe that, and she'd started the process of starting to collect some of these payoffs, so that the crazy thing about Darwin is that he did live next door to his own house. You know, his sons would visit here and there, and you know he made himself scarce at those times. Of course, just to emphasize how crazy this is, in two thousand two, John Darwin faked his own death. His wife was in on it. He moved home and the entire time his

sons thought he was dead, Darwin didn't get caught. He did turn himself in eventually. He says it was because he couldn't take Lyne to his son's anymore. Okay, so let's talk specifically about this case. Say, Philip, had you heard of her before I contacted? I had not heard of her, and I was so excited I saw this case because I think it's completely fascinating. But no, I had not heard of her. Was thirty years old on

nine eleven UM. She was a medical resident, just gribe by many people as brilliant, really smart, extroverted, but also troubled, maybe dealt with mental illness, substance abuse affairs. Somebody who knew her told me that she really didn't want to be a doctor, that she came from a conservative, traditional Indian family that kind of pushed her into medicine, but that her love was art and poetry. It seems crazy,

like it's it's fascinating. And because there is no physical evidence that she died at the trade center, none of there's been no DNA match, none of her belongings have been positively identified. And when you combine that with the fact of who she was as this kind of brilliant, confident person, you know, really really smart by all accounts, and the fact that nobody knows where she stayed on

the night of September. If there was someone who could or would try to successfully pull this off, it seems to be heard. So I thought it was fascinating. I was reading this book and I didn't know if you were aware of this case obviously when I read the book. But you say missing person's reports and the immediate wake of the attacks climbed over six thousand, but the official lives lost total two thousand, eight hundred and one at

the first year of commemoration. Of those more than three thousand misidentified deaths, forty four were claims for people who were either still alive or people who did not exist. So those forty four are numbers that come from um what the n y p D called Operation Vulture Sweep, and that was for people who were just like very flagrant fraudsters, like inventing a spouse who they say worked at Cantor Fitzgerald, and they were really just trying to

very boldly exploit charities and collect money. And these were like very easily disproven. And then the next passage, this is what really got me, and I I highlighted it. I put a bracket, and then I put a giant highlighted star on the page. Imagine coming up from the subway, recognizing the tragedy, immediately computing it as an opportunity, and opening and slinking away. Nothing filed, no attempt at life insurance,

just a split second decision to vanish. Why nine eleven, Why did you put that in the book before you were even aware of this case? Why does it fascinate you? You know, I think it's in our whole collective memory. It's just such a seared moment for all of us, right, it was just like this utter chaos and you couldn't

wrap your mind around it. Right, So I think the idea that someone could make something I don't want to necessarily say positive, but that someone could see this utter tragedy and destruction and see how a kind of a lightbulb moment. I think maybe it's just that contrast that is really what kind of gets into my imagination, at least something that Frank said. He used the phrase austere elegance, which stuck out to me. Having looked at this case,

what's your general impression, Man, It's so interesting. It's it's just so fascinating. I mean, there's so many really compelling loose ends. She herself is such an interesting person, I think. I think that's that's what really gets me about this case, is that, you know, she seemed to be embroiled in quite a bit of paradoxes. You know, I can't, I don't.

I don't obviously know her. I don't know the situation, but you know, it sounded like she was in a marriage but maybe had other identities that she was trying to express at the same time. So I just think about her and I think, you know, now you said this thing about being a doctor but really wanting to

be an artist. You know, just these forces at her that were at odds um and you know, sounds by all accounts like a really brilliant and interesting person when you think about you're kind of fake death hero, which I never found in the course of my research in terms of someone who fakes their death for what seems like an altruistic or legitimate purpose, someone who's not just kind of like a you know, bottom feeder trying to scam money out of these things. You know, she seems

like she could be that person. She had maybe some interesting motivations. Also, it sounds like had some some trouble with UM, perhaps substance abuse and as you suggested, mental illness, which again, when you think about the mindset of kind of desperation of trying to make this calculus add up that this is the best course of action, perhaps some of those impulses could have led her there. So I

think she's so interesting. And then, of course, you know, you just have that last image of her, you know, the last images of her at Century twenty one buying Lingerie. Of course, that's like very lifetime movie and super scintillating, I guess. But also I think it's that her husband said that there was perhaps someone who looked like her that was seen standing in front of the elevators of her building and then turning around. I mean, it's all

just so elliptical and mysterious and just completely fascinating. Well, the question too, is like she stayed. She either was alive on the night of September ten or she wasn't. And most likely obviously she was alive, so she stayed somewhere. So where did she stay the night of September ten? I mean, it's if it was anybody, If it was a family member or a friend, I mean, obviously they would have come forward. So then what what are the alternatives?

Is that she stayed with someone with whom she was having an affair maybe and they didn't want to come forward. But you start to run through your mind. Can am I missing anything? Can you think of any logical alternatives? And where she might have been the night of the tent? Oh? Me, No, definitely not. I mean, I think unfortunately, when we look at these cases of women in particular disappearing, you know, unfortunately,

it's usually because they've been abducted and oftentimes murdered. Unfortunately, you know it from what I've seen these cases, it's it's not what we want them to be. It's not this projection of sovereignty and freedom and reclamation. It's often almost always violence at the hands of someone else. Have you ever seen this postcard? No? Oh, that's eerie, right. This is a postcard sent to post Secret. It says, everyone who knew me before nine eleven believes I'm dead

over a picture of the burning Twin towers. So you've never seen that before. So the idea that anybody out there, that there's somebody out there who use line eleven as a cover to to disappear, because you wouldn't even say necessarily fake their own death because they didn't cause line eleven, I mean, they just do you think that that's feasible

at all? Gosh? I mean, I've thought about this a lot over the years, and I have loved to kind of think about this dark fantasy of someone who's on their way to work on the morning of nine eleven, gets out of the subway, sees what's going on, and somehow, in that instant and that split second, is able to do this calculus and take advantage of that situation for the means of disappearing. I think that's more in the realm, still a fantasy and art. I mean, it just seems

so impossible to not only lay the groundwork. Of course, during September eleven there was such a great deal of chaos that in that initial aftermath, the first few months after, when things are in disarray, it seems like you probably couldn't you know, been able to get away with it for for a short period of time. I don't think in the long run, though, I think there's there's so many steps that one needs to take two go about making a believable identity that's going to really hold water

over the course of years. Well, when you talk about a believable identity, though, I mean, there are eleven million undocumented workers in this country who don't all have quote, you know, by the legal sense, believable identities. I mean, would you really need to have all that lined up? I mean, what's what would stop you from going to make you know, Los Angeles or another city and kind

of blending in I mean with even without an idea. Sure, so if you take the example of undocumented workers, you're absolutely right. But you know, when we're talking about undocumented workers, the type of work these people are doing is usually off the books, is usually kind of labor that is extremely difficult, often very dangerous. The people who are educated, um just wouldn't do or won't do for a long

period of time. So I think when you think about having a quote unquote believable identity, you either go very kind of analog like in this way where everything's off the books, you're staying completely offline, everything's in cash. Or conversely, you've invested quite a bit of money and time and resources into getting pristine documents, into building a credit history of another person, so you look like a believable person who didn't just you was born yesterday and had this

you know, your thirty seven with a line of credit. Right. And the third option I guess would be having somebody in on it who had money or who was willing to support you. Right, yeah, but what do you do? What do you do though over the long haul? Right? Like,

that's the question. I mean, I think you can do that for a few years maybe, but when you think about decades, right, and if you are a person from a professional background and you do have very specific profile, portfolio of interests, it's really hard to just erase all of that and become someone so so countered who you were The thing is, though, the idea that stay Hot used nine eleven to disappear twenty years ago and the

idea that she's still alive are two different things. Studies show that missing women are at a much higher risk of dying by murder or suicide. It's depressing, I know, But even if Sna did survive, if she did abscond, there's no guarantee that she's still alive. She could be a Jane Doe somewhere. But if she did successfully disappear, do he just kind of want to let her disappear

in peace? That's a good question. I think if personally I would if I found her somehow, I I would leave it up to her whether or not she wanted to come forward. Like that's it's a really good question. There's there's a good ethical Well, first of all, I mean by that point, you know we've made it pretty far in the investigation. No, that's that's a great ethical question. Um, I haven't thought too much. No, I don't know the

answer myself. I just think if she's able to get away with it for this long, what I would what I would do is personally, if I were to magically find her, I would approach her. I talked to her, I wouldn't you know all of a sudden blast out that I had found her where she was. It's not my place to judge, and I think I probably would treat her like a source. I'd probably say, I have all these questions. You absolutely fascinate me, You fascinate the world.

This is incredible. But I'm I'm happy to respect your anonymity and your privacy in terms of where you are, what your identity is. But it's it's tough as a journalist.

And I also just look at there are other people doing it and doing it with like really like some of the like some of the headlines from when she disappeared, like under you know that the post it was like it's like the most like salacious thing, and some of some ofhow it was initially reported or even in the court case it was like she's conducting bisexual acts and it's like, what you know is this like you imagine that like puritan like, oh, we are in a court

of law, like but um no, I mean, that's that's a good question. But I guess you know that's it's a fair ethical point. I would ask you separate from the show separate. Wouldn't this wouldn't she be? I feel like I don't want to say the most magical example. Absolutely. I mean people ask me all the time like, oh, so, did you ever talk to someone who faked their death and they were still presumed dead? And no, I never have, like,

never got that phone call. I would love to and I'm available if anyone wants to talk, but um no, she would be everything to speak to that experience. If presuming she did disappear and has managed to stay gone for almost twenty years now, I would live to talk to her, just to have a coffee with her and ask her what that's been like and everything, and try to leave it at that, let her go back to

her wherever she is. Well, I guess I would ask you the same question, because you know I'm working on this project specifically, but you worked on the broader perspective here. How would you handle that ethically? Let's say you were resar saying this story and you found her sending at a cafe or an apartment Los Angeles or something. How would how would you handle it? If she said, I don't want you to report that I'm still alive. Would you respect that or would you find a balance between

that's a doozy, that's a real doozy. I think what I would do is I would try to stay on her as gingerly as possible. That's always kind of my m O in probably years two. When you go into this kind of work, you don't easily take no for an answer. So I think I would try to stay

on her, build some trust, hopefully. I think I would try to meet or talk on the phone under the cover of total anonymity, total privacy, And I don't know, maybe it's cowardly, but maybe there's some way you can split the difference where you can say you did speak with her, but not reveal any of the details she I agree with you, Like, it's really hard, especially this Your family's out there, you know, and if they would have who knows me. Maybe the families usually know more

than they led on. So yeah, you have all these ethical and then maybe even legal implications, So like, I don't know, it's interesting. You'd also have to be really careful about how you approach her. It couldn't just be like I'm gonna place a phone call and then the minute that somebody gets a hold hold of my phone records. Well, the book is playing dead. We're not live, but I'm going to give you the br treat. My guest today on this cold COVID death winter about to snow day

as we're shivering, is Elizabeth Greenwood. Did I miss anything? Is there anything else you want to say? Any important points? I don't think those really good questions. So in the end, can we rule out the idea that stay hot use nine eleven as cover to voluntarily disappear? No, I don't think so. She was a brilliant woman, unhappy with life, her marriage, and her profession. The idea that she ran away, well, the only remarkable thing about it is nine eleven. Otherwise

it's not unique. Thousands of people disappear every year. The postcard says, everyone who knew me before nine eleven believes I'm dead. Change nine eleven to any other day? Is it really that crazy? Next week we're going to release a special bonus episode. We'll be back with a brand new full episode the week after that. Homework One, did you successfully fake your own death and get away with it? Do you know anyone else who did? Two? Did you

send a nine eleven postcard to post Secret? If so, whether it's real or oaks, I'd love to hear from you. I'll protect your identity. You can reach us by phone at one eight three three new Tips that's one eight three three six three nine eight four seven seven again one eight three three six three nine eight four seven seven, or you can reach us via email at tips at iHeart media dot com. That's Tips, t I p s at iHeart media dot com. Ben Bollen is our executive producer.

Paul Decan is our supervising producer, Chris Brown is our assistant producer, Seth Nicholas Johnson is our producer. Sam T. Garden is our research assistant, and I'm your host and executive producer, John Wallzack. Cover art by Pam Peacock. Please donate to the Internet Archive. It's a vital resource. Go to archive dot org slash donate Missing Person Studied participants voiced by Samantha McVeigh, Any Reese, Brandy Supra, Paul Decan, and Alice Chelf Sara Wong. Special thanks to Tamika Campbell

at iHeart and at Christoph Zapprey in New Orleans. Also thank you to Dr e Mark bogutin Detective Richard Stark Elizabeth Greenwood and ASoP Rock. Go by Elizabeth's book Playing Dead, a journey through the world of death fraud. She's a great writer and it's a fun book. Elizabeth also has a brand new book coming out this month called Love Lockdown, Dating, Sex and Marriage in America's Prisons. Original theme music by ASoP Rock. Check out Asop's website at ASoP rock dot com.

You can find me on Twitter at at john wallzac j O n w A l c z a K. If you like the show, check out our first season, Missing in Alaska, about the nineteen seventy two disappearance of two congressmen. Missing on nine eleven, is a co production of I Heart Radio and Greenfork Media.