Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may not be suitable for all listeners. Search for Robert Fisher and you're liable to find blue collars. There's his resume. Aviation fuel handler, firefighter, medical technician. He sees himself as gritty and masculine, and that's how he wants others to see him too. A hunter, a fisherman, country music, a pickup truck. He's a man, blue collar, dammit, and proud
of it. As he leaves work. On April ninth, two thousand and one, Fisher wears a blue shirt from a fire department. That night, at ten forty two pm, an ATM camera captures footage of him wearing an RC COLA shirt. The footage is black and white, but the logo used from nineteen ninety eight to two thousand and nine was set against a blue background. The shirt is likely blue.
Ten hours later, Fisher's home explodes. Police photograph a burned blue shirt, a patch with the charred head of a yellow ram, says Bregos, Spring's fire department, Fisher's former em lawyer, A blue collar career, a blue collar PERSONA a blue collar as he leaves work on April ninth, A blue collar the last time we see him, A literal burned blue collar in the rubble of his home. This is the life of Robert Fisher from iHeartRadio and neon thirty three.
I'm John Walzac and this is Missing in Arizona, the story of a man who disappeared after allegedly killing his wife and kids, blowing up their suburban home, and escaping into the wilderness. Twenty three years later, I'm hunting Robert Fisher, and I need your help. Let me get this out of the way. There is no forensic evidence proving Robert Fisher killed his family and blew up their house. It might seem reckless to report this. What if there's a trial,
I'd argue, A, you have to catch him first. You can't prosecute a ghost and be any half co competent defense attorney will hammer this in court. No forensic proof. If anything, I hope it encourages Robert to come forward to tell his side of the story. In this episode, we'll answer two key questions. What does the forensic evidence tell us about the case and are there any viable suspects other than Robert Fisher? Chapter one Pathology they were
asleep in bed when the killer struck. Firefighters find Bobby first, then Brittany, then Mary. None have soot or burn marks in their windpipes, indicating they died before the fire began. The killers slit their throats, cutting into their spines. Mary has a wedding ring on her finger and a bullet in her brain. For an expert opinion, I.
Consult doctor Todd Lukissevik.
A forensic pathologist and assistant medical examiner in Pittsburgh.
I had the opportunity to review three autops reports, three toxicology reports, ballistic reports, and some typed up notes from law enforcement. The reports told the story that the dead cannot tell. The adult female had a gunshot wound to
the back of her head. Three lead bullet fragments were recovered from that gunshot wound to the head, and she also had an in size wound to the left side of her neck, which caused lethal injury to the main vessels of the neck, the jugular vein and the crowded artery. So her cause of death is a combination of the gunshot wound to the head and the insize wind of the neck. There's no way to tell which came first, which came second in and of themselves, they are both
lethal injuries. The young female victim had a insize wound to the left side of the neck. Again, it caused lethal injury to the great vessels of the neck, which would be the left crowded artery and the left jugular vein.
No other injuries were documented. All three of these victims were severely charred because they were recovered from a house fire, so if there was any bruising or anything like that, that would be all covered up by this fire because most of the skin, subcutaneous tissues, and muscles were consumed by the fire. And finally, the young male victim had a insize wound to the right side of his neck that caused lethal injury to the grade vessels of the right side of the neck and also cause injury to
the TRACHEA. Trachia is your windpipe. The injuries to the vessels were again the right crowded artery in the right regular vein.
When you say in size wound, can.
You elaborate on that?
Yes? In size wound by definition is a wound from a sharp implement that is longer on the skin. Then it goes deep whereas a stab wound. The definition of a stab woond is a sharp injury where the depth inside the body is greater than the length on the skin.
Can you discuss the degree of force that was used to cause the injuries to the three vectims?
Well, I would have to ask you the type of knife, the sharpness of the knife, things like that.
This is an important and honest point. It's easy to sensationalize the murders. The killer must have been in a crazy rage, cutting deep into the spines.
However, it would not take much force if you have a sharp knife. Remember two of these victims were children, so it wouldn't take much to get to the bony column. And the adult female was pretty thin, probably smaller than average build, so it wouldn't take too much to get to the bone. Is it common to see injuries to the bone. It's not uncommon, but it's not real common either. I would say probably less than a quarter of the cases.
Twenty percent of the cases. Would you see a mark on the bone from an in size one?
But you can't tell definitively the degree of force, For example, in la person's term, no, you cannot.
How are their throats cut.
For the young male, I would assume that it started at the midline and goes latterly behind the right ear. For the two females, I would assume it started laterally and commence to the midline. Most people think that all the vessels are midline neck. They're actually on the lateral sides of the neck. So someone that would do something like this, they know they have to go to the lateral, not so much midline, so they have to go behind the ear kind of drop down from the ear. That's
where your vessels are. That's where you're going to take your pulse. So if you're cutting here, you're not doing much. If you're cutting midle, you're not doing much. But if you cut more lateral, that's where the vessels are. When you take your pulse, it's kind of below your angle demandible, which is your jaw line. That's where the vital area is. So this person, can I say he knew what he
was doing. Yes, he knew what he was doing because he got to the vessels and he made sure he was deep enough because he got to the spinal column itself.
In your opinion, with the neck wound, is that knowledge that someone who is a hunter would have or would you need more specific knowledge on human anatomy.
Now, I think hunter military just someone that if someone's watched a TV show on anatomy or autopsy procedure or something like that. I don't want to say it's common knowledge, but it almost is, because when you take physical ed as a grade school child, you're taught to fill your pulse on the lateral side of your neck.
So what makes this case stand out?
What was unique is one in size wound on each victim, very unique. Usually when a knife's involved, there's a fight, there's other marks, there's other stab wound, there's other size wounds, there's contusions. But remember these people were in the fire and most of their skin was gone due to the fire, so a small in size wound or a small stab wound could be absent because of the fire consumed it. So the uniqueness is the fact that there's just one wound.
The general understanding that law enforcement has is that the victims were all likely individually caught off guard and killed in their beds, and none of them heard any of the other victims being killed. It was a very small house and the rooms were pretty close together, so it would take someone going into each room and doing this and having one shot not to wake everybody else up. And it just seems very precise. Do you see anything to contradict that.
No, I don't. It seems precise and calculated. And if you're gonna cause them in size wound to someone's throats, slit somebody's throat after you do that, you're gonna have to hold their head down because they have seconds to live to fight back. It's not an incapacitating wound. You're still gonna be able to move fight back from that. So they would splice or throat hold their head down
to the pillow. That would be the only way I could see that without someone making a scream or yell or cry for help, unless they were gagged or had something covering their mouth.
Can you discuss what you were able to determine about bullet six? What were you able to tell from the records?
So the autopsy pathologist was able to recover three lead bullet fragments that were severely deformed from the skull and brain of the adult female. They were described as being led. They were described as being small fragments. There is no description of any exit wound or anything else that is collected. From the ballistic report from the crime lab, it does not describe how many fragments were collected, and it says the fragments are consistent with a twenty five caliber bullet.
And I'm not sure how that conclusion was made given the report I have, because there's no weight, there's no description, there's no photography, there's no description of the lands or grooves, there's no description if it's jacketed or unjacketed, if it's lead, fit's coppered. So I would believe that we're missing some of the report because I could not come to that conclusion with three small fragments that it's coming from any sort of caliber let alone a twenty five caliber, which
is a weird and unique round. It's around with the least amount of velocity and a least amount of energy out of all center fire handgun rounds. It's a round that most people would not use or shoot or even have, because it's really not good for anything. Gunshot wind to the head is good for, but nothing else. If you shoot someone in a body that has a hoodie on or a jacket, it's not going to penetrate deep enough to get to where it needs to get.
I won't ask you to turn into a firearms expert, but.
I kind of am. But going okay, well, I mean I'm not the expert like Lease, but we.
Generally what would a twenty five use.
For it's a small pocket gun. It's a part they call it. They used to call them in a ninety Saturday Night specials. It's a small pocket gun. You usually can buy them for fifty dollars. The bullets, the rounds themselves are usually full metal jacket rounds for a twenty five. These are described by the autopsy pathologists as lead bullet fragments, not full metal jacket rounds. What can you tell about lead? Tells me that there was no jacket. Recovered bullets are
composed of lead, and they usually have a jacket. That jacket's in metal. It's usually copper copper jacketed bullet. So you either have a lead bullet or you have a some kind of jacketed bullet, which is a lead bullet covered by a jacket. There's no description of any.
Jacket here, and there was no exit wound.
So there's no exit wound described in the autopsy report.
So presumably whatever bullet was used was.
Not jacketed, That would be a good presumption.
Yes, would that be consistent with a twenty two or thirty eight?
Could definitely be consistent with a twenty two because twenty twos are not jacketed, twenty two room fires are never jacketed, and for a thirty eight thirty eight sometimes they're all lead.
Is there anything to tell from the lack of an exit wound about the caliber?
I have my opinions after doing thousands of gunshot wounds. But typically if it's a lead bullet under thirty eight caliber nine caliber usually stays in the body, as usually stays in the head. If it's a full metal jacket anything thirty eight or above, it usually goes through and through, it goes in, and it exits.
So if it was a thirty eight that was all led a ZAC consystem with does.
Yes, it could stay in. Yes, interesting, But I would like to see those fragments because if those fragments are super tiny, it's not a thirty eight. That's why seeing the fragments, weighing those fragments, measuring those fragments being more descriptive with the fragments that were retained, would tell me almost immediately if we're in a thirty eight class, are we in the twenty two class? Because there's a big difference point three to eight of an inch versus point two two of an inch.
What about fire? How effectively does it destroy bodies?
You're never going to consume a whole body, but if you read the autopsy report, there's a lot of limbs missing. Most of the skin was missing, most of the muscle was consumed by the fire.
Conclusions the killer slit Mary, Brittany and Bobby's throats with a sharp instrument, likely a knife. We can't determine the degree of force he used. Police and the media have repeatedly painted a portrait of a crazed killer nearly beheading his victims in a fit of rage, a narrative not supported by the evidence. A sharp knife used on small victims can cause spinal injuries without extreme force. This might seem pedantic, but it's not only about Robert Fisher. It's
about reality itself. The road to greater truths is not paved with cloudy distortions. We should resist the urge to soothe ourselves by morphing complex humans into cartoon demons. The suburban dad who kills his kids is bad enough, no need to pump him full of steroids to lionize him. Another fact stated repeatedly that Mary was shot in the head with a thirty eight, but a police document I obtained says bullet fragments in her brain were consistent with
a twenty five, not a thirty eight. Why does this matter? Well, at least one of Robert's guns, a thirty eight Revolver, was missing from the house. Pointing out that bullet fragments don't necessarily match the caliber of the missing gun complicates an otherwise simple narrative that Robert fled with a murder weapon. But I'm here to complicate simple narratives because what's true is true, and this is an exercise in digging up fact, not crafting fiction. If Mary was indeed shot with a
twenty five, that's bizarre. It's a tiny, weak, little pistol. I wonder if it belonged to Mary, not Robert, if she bought it for protection Scott Steel Detective T. J. Juran calls the gun shot the fuck you shot, and what better fu than to shoot someone with their own gun. Separately, investigators find a black metal hammer in the rubble of the master bedroom. Why is it there? Robert was a
neat freak who demanded everything be in its place. Mary's mom said that if the kids left anything lying around, Robert would throw it in the trash. So what's a random hammer doing in the bedroom the night of the murders? Did Mary stash it there as a defensive weapon? This is speculation, but I'm curious. Chapter two fingerprints. A key mystery of this case is why, when located in the forest, Mary's suv is quote wiped clean. You would expect to
find Robert's fingerprints in his wife's suv. It proves nothing, so why would he wipe it down? Does this point to the involvement of an accomplice or even a different killer if the suv was wiped clean, I'd say yes, But this mystery is in fact a myth. Police recover at least seven fingerprints, six from interior windows and one from an exterior window. For an expert opinion, I consult
Matthew Steiner. Matt recently retired from the NYPD after processing more than two thousand crime scenes during a twenty five year career in which he also consulted for the FBI and State department. He now works for a company called TriTech Forensics. Generally, is it unusual not to recover prints from a car wipe the Samana SUV.
I spent so many times in my career having to explain this to other investigators, to bosses, and the most importantly, to jury's. Your fingerprints are not absolute though. If you watch CSI every single damn episode, they'll be dusting feathers and other ridiculous things and getting fingerprints, and then in that show they'll be like, oh, there isn't fingerprints on this object that we know the suspect handled because it was wiped down, or the suspect was wearing gloves. Those
are possibilities, that's not always the case. There's so many variables to why you would or wouldn't leave a fingerprint. First off, the surface is dirty and you touch it, you may be picking up that dust. That dust, that dirt is filling into the furrows or your friction ridges, and though you could physically see the impression, there's no detail there to be recovered. There's no minutia in that impression.
It could be that direct exposure sunlight is evaporating the fingerprint and most of your fingerprint is ninety five to ninety nine percent water, depending on this person and a lot of other variables. So if that's in direct exposure to the sun, which in this case it was, that could also destroy fingerprints. It's too hot, the person is sweating, they're touching areas, they're leaving just pools of moisture behind that they're not leaving readable fingerprints. It's too cold, you're
not perspiring at all. You're touching things and there's not much transfer there. Wiping things down hand coverings are certainly possibility, but just the act of touching something that's been touched over and over again, then you have superimposed fingerprints, so the door, handles of the car, the steering wheel, it's another option. You know, you're touching areas that you touch over and over again. You don't have readable fingerprints because
you have all this overlapping. And then most importantly is you got to think what are the conducive surfaces that are being touched. Is the surface good for fingerprints? You know, so something that's smooth and shiny, non porous is your best option. So on the vehicle, sure, the body, the glass, those are great, but inside the fabric materials, the texture
to something. If it's not smooth, you touch something and it has like a surface that isn't smooth, there's nowhere for those fingerprints to go flat onto and you don't have wheedled fingerprints.
In many cases, we go process.
A suspects car or a victim's car and it happens where you just don't get fingerprints, and someone who doesn't understand how it works can misinterpret that as being wiped down.
In this case, though police do recover prints, seven of them from windows. Whoever abandoned the suv in the woods left all five windows down, exposing the interior to wind and snow, but inadvertently protecting fingerprints on glass. Quick note, the Forerunner is surprisingly clean, no caked mud, no paw prints, a minimal amount of dirt, just some pine needles. It's parked in a tight cluster of trees, protected in part by towering Ponderosa pines. Police have to call in two
trucks to extricate it. Snow starts falling as drivers load it onto a flatbed. On the trip back to Scottsdale, wind rips apart a protective tarp. Crime scene technical find shredded pieces of it in the suv, but apparently remove them before photographing it. No tart pieces are visible in official images. Conclusions the Forerunner is not wiped clean. Given the circumstances, it's not at all surprising that crime scene technicians didn't recover more fingerprints. In fact, it's impressive they
recovered even seven. Who do these seven belong to? I don't know, but if any belonged to Robert, police would be able to id them. His prints are on file from his time in the Navy. Chapter three blood investigators find no confirmed trace of blood in the Forerunner, remarkable considering the violent nature of the murders. The killer cleaned up perfectly before escaping. They do, however, get a single,
inconclusive luminol reaction on the front passenger floor mat. Luminol is a chemical that glows blue in the presence of blood. To decipher this, I call Karen elliet It. Karen is a bloodstain expert formerly with the Utah Bureau of Forensic Services. She's now a private consultant and volunteer for the nonprofit Cold Case Foundation. The problem with luminol and bluestar, another chemical reagent, is.
That they both react sometimes to things other.
Than blood, including copper, cobalt, iron, and some chemicals like bleach. Would luminol react to animal blood? Yes, so Scott Steele gets a luminol reaction on the floor mat, but that doesn't tell us much. I send a photo of the reaction to Karen.
It has very defined lines, and that leads me to believe that if it were in fact blood, that it might have been transferred from potentially a weapon or some kind of an item that was transferred. The lines are very very defined. It does not look like a drop of blood. It looks like almost like a transfer. But in addition, it could be just some kind of a metal shaving or something that transfer off of a piece of metal that would have caused that kind of a defined line there or defined shape.
If the match still exists today, Karen says there.
Might be a potential for DNA conclusion.
We don't know what caused the aluminal reaction human blood, animal blood, metal, bleach, but modern testing could tell us more. Chapter four DNA, a hat, a cigarette, butt, a shoe. Investigators recover DNA from all three. The hat, specifically the Oakland Raiders ball cap, Robert Fisher wore the night of April ninth, two thousand and one. Police find it in Mary's for runner. They pull from it a partial DNA profile that appears to match Robert the cigarette butt. Robert
doesn't smoke cigarettes. He chews tobacco. I don't know where police find the cigarette butt, but they recover from it a complete DNA profile that belongs to an unknown male. The shoe Police retrieve a pair of white rebox sneakers from Roberts worklocker at the Mayo Clinic Hospital in Phoenix. They collect DNA from a heel and a blood stain. The heel DNA is a mix from an unknown female and an unknown male. It doesn't tell us anything. It
could have come from anyone doctors, nurses, patients. The blood stain, though, is intriguing. I decide to fly to New York City to consult Lisa Desire. You might recognize the name Desire in season two Missing on nine to eleven. We interviewed Mark Desire with the New York City Office of the Chief Medical Examiner or OCME. Lisa Desire Mark Desire. I know people are going to wonder, are you guys related.
Yeah, he's my brother, lies my much older brother.
I no, we are married.
The desires are perhaps America's most dynamic DNA duo. A brilliant wife, a brilliant husband, kind, empathetic, hilarious, somewhat make a sitcom. Weird things come out of our mouth where it's like blood seam and saliva just roll right off of our tongue, which is bizarre for other people, and often it happens at dinner, So try not to in front of the kids.
But that's a different story.
Lisa used to work for the OCME. She now runs a company called Prime Suspect. I asked her to review Fisher case files, including DNA records. Here's what's weird about the blood stain on the shoe.
Whoever left this?
If this is from a single female, looks like that single female could be a close relative of Jan Howell's. Jan Howell is Robert Fisher's mom. Conclusions One, the ballcap DNA tells us nothing. It likely belongs to Robert. Two the cigarette DNA gives us a complete profile of an unknown male, which could theoretically be run through CODIS, the National DNA database. Three blood on a sneaker in Robert's worklocker apparently belongs to a close female relative, someone related
to his mom, but not his dad. I don't know what to make of this. Maybe it's important, maybe not. It could be something as simple as a lab error. If accurate, though, why did Robert have a shoe with a relative's blood in his locker? I raise the issue with law enforcement, but they don't seem to think it's relevant. However, one investigator tells me that police were highly suspicious that someone went into Robert's worklocker after the murders, but before
they obtained a search warrant. Chapter five Feces and a tissue. A scott Stale detective sees a pile of excrement and a piece of tissue in the woods just west of Mary's forerunner. It's unclear if either is collected for testing. Chapter six unknown fibers. Police locate numerous dark fibers in the forerunner. It's unclear what they are or where they came from. They still haven't been identified. Chapter seven the keys In the rubble of the house, investigators find two
keys to a safety deposit box. It's unclear if the Fishers had a safety deposit box at the time of the murders, and if they did, whether or not it was searched. Chapter eight security footage tracing the Fisher's final steps. There are no security cameras at Supi Middle School, Scottsdale Baptist Church, or popular outdoor outfitters. No neighbors have them either. The Mayo Clinic does, but police apparently never obtained the footage.
Chapter nine. The cell phone and the pager. At least one of the Fishers has a cell phone, probably Robert. It powers down at one thirty am on April tenth, two thousand and one, around the time of the murders, and never turns back on. It isn't found at the house, though the fire could have destroyed it. Quest Cellular, a now defunct company, can't tell police where it last pinged at the time that information was stored for only twenty four hours. Robert also apparently has a work pager. That's
all I know. Chapter ten electronic mail. Sometime between the late nineties and two thousand and one, the Fishers bought a computer. They apparently shared one personal email address, az Fischer four at aol dot com. Mary and Brittany used it, but Bobby didn't, and neither did Robert. Police find nothing of note on the AOL account on Robert's work account, though they find emails between Robert and quote previously unknown females. I don't know if these names panned out into any
actionable leads. Chapter eleven, the fire. I'm going to divide this into four segments. The accelerant, the trigger, the timeline, and the gunshots. The official story is that someone disconnected a gas line from a furnace Dow's the house and liquid accelerant, set a delayed trigger, and a few hours later boom. In search of a fire guru, I turned.
To Matthew Reaganton.
Matt had a twenty two year career with ATF, mostly in Pittsburgh, but also on the bureau's National Response Team.
I began my career as an ATF agent on August the twenty seventh, two thousand and one, two weeks before nine to eleven. When nine to eleven happened, I was here in Pittsburgh and my office was tasked with going to the crash site in Shanksville to assist the FBI and the scene investigation.
He's now an assistant professor with Duquane University's Forensic Science and Law Master's program. I give him Fisher case files and ask for his opinion.
One of the compelling pieces of evidence was that gasline. You had evidence of an intentionally disconnected gas line, and you had an explosion, and you had a large fire. Those are data points you can't ignore when you start considering other accidental causes.
To the fire.
Matt's saying, this was clearly a deliberate act, not a freak accident. But still it's good to triple check everything to doubt yourself.
If you really organize your investigation and your hypothesis testing around disproving your own hypothesis. I have three dead bodies with their throats cut, I have an intentionally disconnected gas line. I have an explosion. Wow, there's all this really overwhelming data to show that a crime happened here. You're on solid ground if you do everything you can to disprove that, to find an accidental cause, to give the benefit of the doubt to the other side.
I completely agree. If there are holes in the narrative, you want to find them now, not at trial. In this case, no one disputes that the gas line was purposely disconnected and the fire intentionally triggered still bill, it's vital to dig deeper the accelerant. This is the most critical and contentious detail. Police and the media have said repeatedly that there were quote poor patterns pour patterns in the Fisher house, that someone spread liquid accelerant to help
fuel the fire. When you look at photos of charred floors and diagrams of damage, this makes intuitive sense. If true, it would be a key piece of evidence indicating advanced planning. The poor patterns cover almost half the interior of the house. That's a ton of accelerant. But arsen dogs and lab testing fail to find any evidence of hydrocarbon fuels like gasoline. Instead, investigators speculate that Fisher used clean burning alcohol he stole
from work, proving premeditation. The problem is they're basing this again on poor patterns, outdated junk science. Many things can cause burn or poor patterns on floors.
One example, we're in a room right now with carpet and fairly new carpet. But let's say this carpet had been installed for the last twenty years, and the area where people walked most often were right in the middle of this area to the door and back to the couch and back and wear patterns, so you have differences in the carpeting and the padding below it. Wear patterns in a fire might cause patterns that could be mistaken for poor patterns.
What about the theory that Fisher used alcohol as an accelerant.
If you've ever put any sort of rubbing alcohol in a different area and try to light it, it burns
off really quickly. The thing about petroleum based fuels is that they have sustained burning, and that's important for the development of a fire because it gets other fuels involved, it continues to burn, and then there's a certain point in the development of a fire where it doesn't matter that there is or was accelerant there, because all the fuels in the room, the couches, the clothes, the desks, anything that's plastic is now fully going and that's what's driving the fire.
For a second opinion, I tracked down David Smith. Not only is David a Certified Fire Investigator or CFI, but he's the CFI who investigated the Fisher fire on site for both the gas company and the Scottsdale Police Department. David, did you see any indication liquid accelerant was used?
I saw zero evidence of that.
What about quote poor patterns?
The poor patterns were caused by vent elesh. These patternsers sitting on the floor are natural and result from air movement carrying hot gases and not from something on the floor. Often, more inexperienced fire investigators find poor patterns in quotes at doorways and under windows and things like this. And at the doorways they were always talking about, well, obviously they were pouring gasoline and walked out of the door backwards, lge ended around and aluminum threshold is melted, so only
a gasoline can do that. So what happens is we have a well involved fire taking place, and we all know that heat rises and heat will typically hit an obstruction called a ceiling, and that obstruction then causes that flame and heat to move laterally and then it finds a place to escape, and that's a window or a doorway, and so that hot gases escaping. Well, when that hot gas is escaping, what does that fire need at that particular point for growth, And that's oxygen. So it's pulling
oxygen in at the lower levels. So we're having air movements and we're having hot gases that are circulating and so that's where we're getting these patterns. Now, you mentioned walking and things like that. Absolutely, I had numerous examples
of that. I had a very large fire in a tower type building in law offices, and there were poor patterns down all the hallways, and it was quite disturbing because they knew, under the circumstances we did not have a nite of a liquid, but we have well defined in quotes or patterns down those hallways and so forth.
And so I got the building people, because they were very cooperative as one could imagine, I got them to go to the next suite on the next floor down and pull up the carpet, and there they were the same identical patterns were already on that floor from the foam rubber cut foam rubber pad that had been breaking away and that tiny particles being pushed down into the concrete, which is quite porous. We don't think of it that way,
but it's quite porous. And so when we then had that and then fire, those particles burn up and cause those patterns. And so the four patterns are typically right down the center where people walk and.
Not on the sides.
So you didn't see any indication that there was a liquid accelerant used in the Fisher fire.
No, and they did bring a dog in and that dog failed to alert.
David conveys his findings to law enforcement.
I never argued with Scottsdale about this because that wasn't my place. But there was no reason to suspect ignitable liquids in this home.
David is the most qualified person on the planet to comment on the Fisher fire. Not only did he investigate it on site for the gas company and the police, but he also helped write NFPA nine twenty one, the Fire Investigation Bible. He's even a former cop who began his career in Tucson in nineteen sixty eight. If you listen to season one, Missican Alaska, you might be muttering Tucson nineteen sixty eight. Jerry Paisley.
Jerry Paisley is a person that I had arrested for hamsaid, you arrested Paisley. Yeah, and Paisley was convicted of on side.
Wow.
So David has direct ties to two of our three seasons. David, I'm granting you honored status in the Missing Cinematic Universe. The Trigger investigators never determined definitively what triggered the explosion, but the likeliest culprit is a candle or candles. They find the remains of at least three in the house, one in Britney's bedroom and two in the hall. They also find a burnt firecracker in the master bedroom. This
is abnormal because again Robert was a neat freak. Even more bizarre, they locate some kind of quote device in a metal trash can in Britney's room, a battery attached to wire and metal foil. The timeline April ninth, ten forty two pm. Roberts at the atm April tenth, eight forty two am. The house explodes, so Robert flees sometime
in the intervening ten hours. That's the old narrative, but we located two new witnesses, Peter, the neighbor and Bud Wolf, the newspaper delivery man who tightened the t timeline dramatically. Peter sees both fisher vehicles at three thirty AM. Bud sees both vehicles at five thirty but Mary's suv is gone by seven thirty. Civil Twilight begins at five thirty seven, meaning there's light in the sky and the sun rises at six zh three. So my best guess is that
Robert flees between five thirty and six am. What can forensics tell us about the timeline? Can we estimate, for example, how long it takes gas to fill the house before it explodes? Here again is David Smith.
My best recollection is three hours.
David's estimate based on science, fits my theory based on witness statements, the rising sun and common sense. The gunshots the morning of the fire. Two men who live near the Fishers, but on different streets a short distance away. Here's something that remains unexplained to this day. Their names are Timothy Kinney and Michael Kakuza. They speak to a Scottsdale police officer less than twelve hours after the housees. Here's the recreation of a police memo I obtained.
Between zero eight thirty and zero nine hundred hours. This morning, he Timothy Kenney, was sitting on his back porch, which faces south, when he heard two gunshots coming from southeast of his residence. There were approximately two to three seconds apart from each other, and they sounded like a nine millimeter or three fifty seven magnum. Kenny knows weapons, as he is a former Maricopa County Sheriff's deputy. Approximately ten minutes later, he heard a loud explosion coming from the
same area. The explosion was loud enough to shake the ground and vibrate the windows. He looked to the southeast and saw smoke and a helicopter was hovering in the area. He cannot narrow the time of the gunshots down any further, and he did not call the police this morning because he heard sirens and figure that neighbors would have already called. It was not until he saw the news coverage this afternoon that he decided to call the police.
Next Michael Cakuza.
At zero eight fifteen hours this morning, his clock chimed, indicating that it was a quarter past the hour. He realized he was late for work, so he walked out outside to his car. He then heard two gunshots, approximately three to four seconds apart from each other. He was standing under his car port, so he is not sure which direction they came from, but they sounded like a very large caliber weapon, such as a forty four magnum or a shotgun. He then got into his car and
went to work. He did not hear anything after that. He called the police after seeing the evening news about the explosion.
Kenny lives three hundred and sixty feet from the Fishers, one street over. Kakuza lives five hundred and thirty feet from the Fishers, on a different street in a different direction. Both men hear two loud gunshots, Kenny around eight Thirtykkuza sometime after eight fifteen. Both say the gunshots came from the direction of the Fisher House about ten to twenty minutes before the explosion. Both speak to police less than twelve hours after the house blew up. Their memories are fresh,
their stories consistent. So what's the deal here? This was a quiet Tuesday morning in a safe suburb. Gunshots were, to say the least, unusual. There were no other crimes reported in the area at that time. It's unlikely a neighbor was firing in the air and no one was hunting. Maybe they heard not gunshots, but I don't know, firecrackers. It's possible, I guess, But Kinny is a former cop,
not a novice, so gunshots. Maybe a fire was already burning at the Fisher House and set off exactly two bullets. I doubt it. The explosion and fire were instantaneous. As soon as something ignited, the gas boomed. Finally, if you're wondering whether or not they heard someone shoot Mary, that's also unlikely. Mary was shot only once with a quieter, smaller caliber bullet. Robert was already gone, and by all indications,
Mary had been dead for hours. Conclusions One, someone disconnected a gas line and set up something, likely a candle, to trigger an explosion. Two, there's no proof liquid accelerant was used. Three. David Smith, the fire investigator, estimates that the Fisher house filled with gas for about three hours before it exploded, meaning someone disconnected the gas line around five forty two am, which lines up with my separate estimate that Fisher fled between five thirty and six am.
Four.
The gunshots remain unexplained, as does the battery device in Brittany's trash can and the burnt firecracker in the master bedroom. Now there's one final question, why, if you're Robert Fisher, why rig the house to explode? Police say Fisher wanted to destroy evidence, but evidence of what. Look at his job history, He handled fuel for the US Navy, was a firefighter and EMT, and worked as a medical technician
for the Mayo Clinic hospital in Phoenix. I doubt he was stupid enough to believe the fire would erase all evidence of the murders, so he could just waltzon later and say, by golly g what happened here. Also, had the house not exploded, he could have bought himself more time, maybe four to twelve hours, a bigger leap on law enforcement. So why blow it up? You could say, well, maybe
he wasn't thinking rationally. Perhaps, but that would mean he pulled off a near perfect crime in the throes of irrationality. If you like this show, please download our first two seasons, Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven. For updates, visit meon thirty three dot com or follow me on Twitter at John waalzac Jo n Wa l Czak. Thanks
for listening. Chapter twelve. Alternate Suspects. Working on this story, I heard wild theories about who could have killed the Fishers, if not Robert, the most prevalent is perhaps a drug cartel. I get why this makes sense slit throats and explosion. It's dramatic, something out of Breaking Bad. But Robert is no Walter White. He seems to have been addicted to painkillers, but otherwise, there's no evidence he used or sold illegal drugs.
I promise you I did seriously consider other suspects, but I immediately rolled them out with one exception, the nosy neighbor, her husband and their adult son. When I ask everyone if the Fishers had enemies, they all say the same thing, no, except the next door neighbors. The nosy neighbor is the woman who heard Robert and Mary fighting the Knight of the murders. She and Robert had a long running feud.
To give you an idea of their dynamic, one time, while spraying his house with a hose, he got water on her house and she called the police. She and her family hated Robert and he them. They saw him as an arrogant jerk, and to their credit, he was By the way, why am I using the nosy neighbor nickname? One, I'm hiding her identity. Two she said she read personal notes and diaries found in the Fisher's trash. Here's why the nosy neighbor, her husband, and their adult son raised
red flags. One motive there was bad blood. Two opportunity they lived next door. Three the husband's profession. He was an electrical engineer. In an online memorial after he died in twenty sixteen, a friend wrote that on a trip they took years earlier, the electrical engineer quote brought a home built battery operated device that made me feel like James Bond. Reading this, I thought of the Fisher fire
and the battery device found in Britney's trash can. The electrical engineer even filed a patent for a disconnect unit for mechanical and electrical systems, so he was clearly smart. He was home when the Fisher house exploded, and he immediately told police that Robert probably died by suicide, an odd thing to say when the likely explanation at that moment before the bodies were found would have been an
accidental gas explosion. For the odd son, the nosy neighbor's son was in his early thirties, and two thousand and one years later he played a key role in the case. He traveled to Canada to help idea man police thought might be Robert Fisher. He swore it was Fisher. Police took the man's fingerprints it was not Fisher. So yes, these three, the nosy neighbor, the electrical engineer, and the
odd son raised red flags. I tried to interview the nosy neighbor, but she never responded to letters, emails, or phone calls, and she didn't answer the door when I twice visited her house. I also tried to interview the odd son. He sent me three emails with some bombshell information. You're going to hear them now, with occasional bleeps. I'm redacting personal information and a few things I don't want to share just yet, but I will in later episodes.
Email number one, I ask the odds Son for an interview. His response, I.
Am not interested in speaking about.
Him, Robert Fisher, or even.
Giving any future mental bandwidth to him. I prefer to move on from anything related to that. Good luck.
Email number two, I ask the odds son if he was at his parents' house on April ninth or April tenth, two thousand and one.
His response, not sure what you want to know. I worked and lived nearby and saw my folks a lot, especially when that went down. They the Fishers, more specifically, she screamed at him daily. He never really yelled. What many consider a one off relationship fight was their day to day. That crap went on for like fourteen years. Never once did you see their kids smile or be kids. The day they moved in, I met him first. I actually told mom and dad we needed to move. He
was crazy and would explode. Someday. Mom and dad saw more than they stopped live next door. Dad died in twenty sixteen. Mom is, we don't really speak much these days. Hearing things they saw secondhand not ideal. I would rather not think about that guy all the.
Best Email number three, I respond quote when you say they screamed at him, who do you mean by they Mary screaming at Robert? Who else screamed at Robert? What made you think from day one, literally the first day, that Robert was crazy and would explode? Were you at your parents' house on April ninth, two thousand and one and the morning of April tenth, two thousand and one, The only people anyone cited the Fishers as feuding with was your family.
Why.
I'd very much like to interview your mom, I reached out. Do you think she'd speak to me? Thanks?
John, I will not respond again after this email. Mary screamed at Robert. You could hear it clearly in the house's next door and outside, calling him worthless, saying she could have done better over a decade of that crowd, and the kids heard it their entire life growing up like top of your lungs, screamed, he was slow, Our interactions were bizarre. He was what today I would easily call a trumper type. I was washing my car, listening to the sex pistols. His first words to me were, boy,
that ain't country music. I responded, no, it's not. It just got weirder from there. Who the fuck calls a stranger boy, some redneck psycho, That's who. I don't remember much. The day before it was a day like any other to me. The day of and many days after that neighborhood was a fucking media and curiosity seeker circus. It was a pain in the ass to even get there to see my parents. You had to show id that you lived there to even access the cul de sac.
The cops had little control and were idiots to residents and not listening to what they were telling the officers and detectives. Ask my mom. She worked both days, came home the night before and saw and Fisher fiddling with the gas line into the house, heard the gun shot that killed Mary. She was not home. The next day at around eight am when the house blew up and caught fire. Dad was home alone. Then day after she saw there's much more talk to her if she will speak.
She planned on writing a book about it now that she's retired. I don't know. We do not speak anymore since Dad passed away, and the bullshit, criminals and thefts and other stuff. Post his death, he Robert Fisher fucking terrified pretty much everyone in that cul de sac save his best friend down the street, the idiot. He speaks to no one anymore. I don't know if he's still alive. Fisher shot guns in his backyard until the police got involved. In his early years, he shot guns with children down
the street. When the guy shot and waved around his guns a lot. The cops were called on that house many many times due to the fight over the years. It wasn't the first time he made the local news. Redneck motherfucker, mister America type whose go to method was intimidation and guns in people's faces. He pulled guns on neighbors and waved them in their face when people tried to resolve problems with them. As a neighbor. The people who lived there at the time were of a different generation.
They don't talk shit about crazy folk they live with, when he may have crazy friends and family too. They back then, unlike today, and people with their echo chambers, had to learn how to live together and get along. Everyone in that cul de sac and nearby knew one another well. It was a community that saw him as whoa crazy. Most were concerned and very outraged by the media mess and lies and bullshit from the parents and reports on TV attempting to make up some other narrative
than the truth. Didn't want to get involved with that crap. Tended to have an attitude. If you have nothing nice to say, don't say it, as it may come back to haunt you. I will not respond again about this, and I do not give you permission to use my name in anything you may quote from me that shows up publicly. I despise talking about this or even thinking about it, and will never respond to you again about more questions.
And true to his word, I never hear from him again. There's a lot to unpack here. The fights. The odd Son said he and his parents repeatedly heard Mary and Robert fighting. Two other neighbors told me the same thing. Peter, who lived on the cul de Sac from nineteen ninety eight to two thousand and two, said everyone heard it.
Yeah, it was loud. That was two houses away and.
I heard it.
Another neighbor, Paul, lived on the street from nineteen eighty seven to ninety five. When you would hear these fights, how intense were they? Were they the kind of fights that if you live, let's say in an apartment sometimes to hear your neighbors arguing or were they pretty intense?
I mean at the level of the yelling. I would say, yes, you got to be pretty upset to real take your voice to that level. When they would be screaming at each other, you could kind of feel like there was some tension in the air. They were venting something, and Bob was usually the one doing most of the screaming. Mary would retort back or just kind of defend herself.
But again, you know, I never really wanted to like hear about what they were talking about, but you could definitely hear that there was some angry words being exchanged.
Well, at that point it's impossible to escape if you're that close.
Yes, exactly.
You know.
I looked at Google maps before this and your house was a little over one hundred feet from there.
And then it called a sext so it's like we're almost like facing each other.
Yeah, And I mean it takes a lot for that kind of yelling to carry even if the windows were open, I still think you have to project that's yeow, Like that's still one hundred hundred and thirty feet yea, the closest to get to your house.
Yeah.
Yeah the police. Neighbors say police were called to the Fisher house multiple times, but the Scottscale Police Department can't locate any record of the except one, which I'll discuss in a later episode. The gunshot. The odd Son told me his mom, the nosy neighbor, heard the gunshot that killed Mary, a shocking claim. If true, why didn't she call the police? If false, why would he say that? The gas line? The odd Son said his mom saw quote Fisher fiddling with the gas line into the house.
That's never been reported before. I found a similar allegation and a police record I.
Obtained female resident from saw the adult male resident of twenty two to twenty three North seventy fourth Place, Robert Fisher on the afternoon of four to nine oh one, he was kneeling near the bushes on the south side of the residence and appeared to be placing a cord near the base of the house.
So whether it was a gas line unlikely or a cord likely, or the nosy neighbor allegedly saw Robert fiddling with something in his yard the afternoon of April ninth. My first question is, obviously what was he doing? My second is when did she see this? Did Fisher go home on his lunch break or was it after work? When I ask investigators about the nosy neighbor, the electrical engineer, and the odd son, the response I get is more or less an eye roll and some version of they're
kind of crazy. But that doesn't mean we should ignore their statements. In fact, police have repeatedly referenced one publicly that the nosy neighbor heard Mary and Robert fighting on April ninth. We either believe her or we don't. We shouldn't cherry picks statements to suit a favored narrative. If we do believe her, What the heck is going on here? I try to avoid crazy rabbit holes, but this one I had to go down. Did the odd son kill
the Fishers. Did his parents cover up the murders? I know how insane this sounds, but given the facts, bad blood, opportunity, the husband's profession, the odd son, I had to at least consider it briefly. But I want to make this emphatically clear. I found no evidence these neighbors were involved in the murders or the explosion. Neither did the police. They were never considered official suspects. Let me say it again, I believe Robert Fisher killed his family. I believe his
actions were premeditated. Don't mistake my open mindedness for naivete. While there's no forensic evidence proving Robert committed these crimes, there's plenty of circumstantial evidence that would likely hold up in court, and let's use common sense. The idea that someone else got into the Fisher house to kill Mary, Brittany and Bobby in their sleep is doubtful. There's no evidence anyone broke into the house, and where would Robert
have been during all of this. The killer would have had to take him out first, without waking his wife and kids, because there is no way an innocent Robert would let someone murder his family without fighting back. I guess you could say a killer waited for him to leave, killed his family, then ambushed him when he got home on a tiny cul de sac. I don't think so. Also, who would leave Robert's dog Blue alive other than Robert. Robert probably put Blue in the backyard or a vehicle
during the murders. Blues barking didn't wake Mary or the kids, and he had no blood on him when he was found in the woods. If someone else killed the family, Blue likely would have been in the house during the murders. So what then the killer gave him a shower? Consider too, the ball cap Robert wore it at the ATM. Police found it in the Forerunner. Finally, pay attention to where the killer abandoned the Forerunner. This was a spot Robert Fisher knew well. In fact, he was supposed to go
camping there three days later. If you think anyone else committed the murders, how would they have known to dump the Forerunner at this exact spot. I could go on and on, but honestly, it's a waste of time. I report without fear or favor. If I thought anyone else committed these crimes, I'd tell you what a twist, but the likeliest culprit by far is Robert Fisher. Search for Robert Fisher and you're liable to find blues collar. So
we found Mary Fisher's Forerunner. It's still on the road, it's still in Arizona, and we're about a half mile away from its current address, which we have to track down the person who owns it. Now, we're going to leave that person a letter and just basically ask if we could talk to them take a look at the Forerunner. One of the things that we really want is a copy of the key, which is kind of crazy, like, Hello, I'm a stranger, I'm a journalist.
I would like a copy of your car key.
But it would mean that if a key was ever found in the wilderness or with remains or something like that, that you could match it up to see if it fit the Forerunner key. Want to see if it has the original owner's manual maintenance records A long shot, but maybe there's like timestamped diagnostics data.
Swored on board. So there is a purpose for this.
But I cannot imagine this man getting a letter from us, Like we're kind of vague. We don't specifically say hello, you have Mary Fisher's Forerunner. But okay, so we are point one mile away, I don't see Okay, it's not here, So somebody has it out.
So I've seen it on Google. Okay, So left him the letter and we're off.
We wait and wait, and never hear back. We do, however, establish a full chain of ownership. One Mary Fisher, two, Mary's sister Myrna three the current owner. After technicians processed the Forerunner in two thousand and one, they gave it back to Mary's family. Her sister sold it to the current owner in twenty eighteen. We try to reach him via letter and email to no avail. Our producer Chris then dials a long list of possible numbers. At one point,
an older woman answers the current owner's mother. She tells Chris that her son is friends with Mary's family. We didn't know that. We thought he was just some random guy. She says. Her son even visited the Fisher's cul de sac the day the house blew up to comfort grieving loved ones. The address we drove by where we left the letter is her house, she says, not his. The Forerunner is now in Tucson, not Scottsdale. She tells Chris she'll speak to her son and if he wants to call,
he will. He never does. She also says, quote, the Lord's not done with Robert Fisher, and then she says this a few years ago, while changing tires on the Forerunner, her son and his wife found quote the dog's collar. They gave it to Mary's sister, Myrna, the dog's collar. There's no way I can confirm this yet, since we didn't hear back from the current owner or Mary's sister. But I believe they found blues collar. If true, that's a big deal. It means the police missed the caller
while processing the Forerunner. It also means that all these years later, we might have found a new piece of physical evidence. Let's say that someone located a new piece of physical evidence in the car twenty two years later. Could it be tested at this point?
Yeah?
Absolutely, Matt Steiner, the NYPD crime scene expert.
In my career, there are tons of cases where we look back at old scenes and are still able to collect evidence.
It's valuable.
I had a case with my partner. We had a clandestine grave in a backyard discovered forty years later and still there was enough evidence there forty years later to solve that case. The company that created blue Star did a cool test where they went to Gettysburg and there's a I guess it's a house there, and in the attic of this house there's like a famous battle where sniper is killed in this attic, And they processed that area with blue Star hundreds of years later and still
got a reaction. So it's powerful stuff. The variables are, what's the condition that's evidence been living in. Has it been stored properly? Has it been in direct exposure to sunlight and UV which would destroy DNA and fingerprints and everything else. Depends on the condition that it's been its location and the environment's been in for the last twenty years, But certainly possible.
Let's say that this isn't theoretical. Let's say that I tracked down the forerunner and the current owners found the dog's collar hidden kind of in a wheel well for the last twenty years. What do you think you could recover from that?
Yeah?
So, I mean, if it's been stored properly, you're talking DNA simply just from skin cells from whoever was handling it from the dog, plus hair and fiber evidence from things that touch the collar the dog, and other things that might have been contact with that collar. So yeah, that would be good. You know, if the tags are on it, maybe fingerprints on it. If it's a smooth, non porous surface, would be a good one for fingerprints. So there's a lot of stuff you could do with it.
For a second opinion, I turn again to Karen Elliott. If you're looking at a dog collar that fell off eye into a wheel well or something, or where the spare tire is and almost twenty years later it's recovered, what kind of testing could be done? What could we in theory learn from that because it would have been pretty protected. Could we test for blood for DNA? What else could we do with that collar?
Yes to all of that DNA for sure. I think that would be a really good surface because there's nooks and cranies on a collar, and especially with someone who is under the probably the kind of stress that Robert would have been under at the time probably left a ton of DNA on that collar. If he touched the dog during that time. His DNA on that collar wouldn't mean a whole lot because it's his dog. Her blood
on the collar would be huge. And yes, since it's been out of the element, since it's been protected, there's a really good possibility that you could find blood on that.
The question that I have, and I know anyone listening to this is going to have, is even twenty plus years later.
Yes, I've worked cases that were fifty years old that we actually used a blood enhancement chemical on and were able to recover bloodstains that were that old.
Finding Robert or Mary's DNA would mean nothing. Blue was their dog, but finding Robert or Mary's blood or DNA from say an accomplice, could be critical evidence. We covered a lot in this episode. Here's the bottom line. There's no forensic evidence proving Robert Fisher committed these crimes, but he is by far the likeliest suspect. Here are the
myths we busted. That the killer used extreme force when slitting Mary, Brittany and Bobby's throats, that Mary's fore runner was wiped clean, that the killer used liquid accelerant to help burn down the house. And here are the key questions we raised. Which caliber bullet was used to shoot Mary A twenty five as indicated in a police report or a thirty eight, matching Robert's missing revolver. Who do the seven fingerprints found in the fore Run belong to?
If they're still unidentified, law enforcement should run them again. What caused the luminol reaction on the Forerunner floor mat Police should re examine it. If they find blood, they should try to recover a DNA profile, then run it through codis. Where was the cigarette butt found and whose DNA is on it? Police should run it through codis. Whose blood is on the sneaker found in Robert's war clocker. If it belongs to a close female relative, who exactly
and why is it there? Did police recover the feces and tissue near the Forerunner? If so, they should examine both for clues like DNA. What are the unknown dark fibers recovered from the Forerunner? Police should consult outside experts and reanalyze them using new technology. Did the Fishers have a safety deposit box? If so, did the police search it? If not, what happened to it? Do police still have the Fisher's computer? If so, what shape is it in?
Can they reanalyze the hard drive using new technology? What's the deal with the burnt firecracker in the master bedroom and the battery device in Britney's trash can. What were the quote gunshots two neighbors heard ten to twenty minutes before the house exploded. Police should consult outside experts. What did the nosy neighbors see the afternoon of April ninth when she spotted Robert fiddling with something in front of his house. Did the nosy neighbor actually hear the gunshot
that killed Mary? If so, why didn't she call police? If not, why did her son say that? Finally, did the current owner of the Forerunner find blues collar? If so, law enforcement should retrieve and test it immediately. Next time, I'm missing in Arizona.
He is alive.
We know he was seen yesterday morning at eleven by the witness and that he's on the move. You can reach us by phone at one eight three three new tips that's one eight three three six three nine eight four seven seven, by email at tips at iHeartMedia dot com, tips at iHeartMedia dot com, online at neon thirty three dot com, or on Twitter at John wallzac j O n w A. L Czak. Paul Duckan is our executive producer.
Chris Brown is our supervising producer. Hannah Rose Snyder is our producer, Paul Gemperlin is our researcher, Ben Bollen is a consulting producer, and I'm Your host and executive producer John Wallzac Recreation is voiced by Ben Bollen and Rob Lamb. Special thanks to Dave Wilkins. Cover art by Pam Peacock, Neon thirty three logo designed by Derek Rudy. Our intro
song is Utopia by Ruby Cube. Please download the first two seasons of our show, Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven, and if you're so inclined, give us a five star rating. Missing in Arizona is a co production of iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three