Mishu Hilmy (00:03.232)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big bold
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focuses on themes of heartache, longing, eros, and pathos. is a four-time New City Film 50 honoree, where he's been recognized alongside iconic names like Dick Wolf, the Wachowskis, and Steve James of Hoop Dreams fame. His short film Pretty Pickle screened at over 35 festivals and has won multiple awards, including the best short narrative at Chicago Underground Film Festival. His upcoming projects, a neo-noir limited series Argus, co-created with Lili Park and with WarnerMedia 150,
and the feature adaptation of the queer body horror novella Waste will begin production this year. Also, Jim is a friend of mine and it's always nice getting to see him and talk to him. And yeah, we go back. So in the episode, Jim and I, we get into it, we chat about the existential tug of war between making art, making work and surviving capitalism, the slow churn of passion projects and why not every idea deserves a 12 hour shoot. We also talked about navigating burnout.
voice memos as a creative lifeline and the difference between making something because you must versus just because you can. So if those are things you're interested in, definitely stick around. You can follow Jim at Jim bendyola on Instagram, as well as check out his site at www.jimbendyola.com and I'll add his blue sky handles as well as his Vimeo in the show notes. So here it is me and Jim. Hope you enjoyed the conversation.
Jim Vendiola (02:17.646)
Just the larger more existential questions like in light of like, you know, the dumpster fire of 2025. Are we going to get to keep doing what we're doing? And is there even like a trajectory? Just all those like larger existential questions. I don't know if that's what you were actually asking.
No, I think so. think so. I think it's I think it's helpful like I think about my own shame and anxiety a lot around like the sometimes the creative act feels like very small when compared to you know, the onslaught of global atrocities and local political atrocities that are like, you know jam-packed in in my head all the time. So like yeah, it's an interesting like ambivalence or concern of like will I be able to do this? Should I even be doing this right now? Sometimes my judgment is like, I'm so selfish. I'm like
worrying about a script I should be writing versus like how am I contributing to mutual aid.
Right, yes, no, exactly. think you sort of succinctly captured, you know, my ongoing concerns in that realm. And, you know, I also, you know, I don't know about you. I know a lot of people feel this way that like, you know, our creation is in...
away its own form of activism or it can be. And I certainly think of some of my, at least some of my work in that regard. And so I do think, you know, I do feel, you know, still this sense of calling and purpose to continue doing what I'm doing. But yeah, I think it just gets harder and harder to feel motivated and empowered to keep doing it. So.
Mishu Hilmy (03:53.836)
Yeah, yeah, there's, there's, it's, especially also with like AI too, it's like not even just like the political scene, but the technological scene. It's like I, even today, like nary 30 minutes ago eating lunch, I was just thinking like, when is it going to be like that movies are just like, all right, in five, 10 years, you just punch in what you want. And then here's your 90 minutes of custom tailored vision making and emotion making.
Yeah, mean, that's like that, you know, apropos, you know, this week that like news of the terrifying meta tool that will basically just like spit out your ad campaign. I don't know if you heard about that, but that's yeah. So it's just kind of like, OK, well, you know, that they're going straight for like ad agencies, you know, obviously, like, you know, the argument can be made.
that this is helpful for smaller independent agencies or at least advertising folks that don't have the budget to make these grandiose things. also, I think that's part of where their ingenuity would come from rather than just throwing something into AI and just spitting out more of that slop.
Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't do have you spent a lot of time in this for the ad world like producing or making things for agencies or advertising or in general you avoid it
I know very little about it. I edited some content for like independent advertisers like years ago when I thought that I was going to try and make a living being an editor. But yeah, I have not. I have not fucked with that that world in a minute. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (05:38.87)
Yeah, I think for me as well, it's a way to make money, I don't know. I have no qualms of people who are doing it, because you can also get your reps in, but I don't know. think I'm very particular, and the idea of a client work is just not satisfying. I'd rather slum away at a shitty day job than try and use my skills to make content for McDonald's or toothpaste.
I think you and I have spoken to similar ends before about how we would rather have these jobs that we have, which are similar and similarly removed from the industry. So we could just kind of like walk away from them. But yeah, I think also I just as someone who largely is in this for, you know, producing.
you know, things that are my own ideas or collaborations with others. just in terms of the ad world, like you said, like nothing against people who do that. But I just I can't I don't think I can fucking handle like people telling me that my edit of their campaign is not good enough. Like that is just that's.
the last thing I want to be doing even though I have no ownership over that, you know, I just the rounds and rounds of notes and you know, absurd takes on something that I would be doing with other other people's content is, you know, even though I like to like not have an ego about it, I don't think that's something that like would satisfy me in any way.
Yeah, I think it's also like a matter of scale because at the indie level we're not, I don't know, you know, not necessarily dealing with a lot of distributors because like a distributor is going to act as an agency to a degree. They're going to like, if you got X million dollar budgets, you're still going to get notes from neon or a 24 Sony or whatever. But I think there's probably a different degree of a relationship rather than like we need to sell more cars. It's like, well, we were worried that this might be alienating to a general.
Jim Vendiola (07:31.138)
I think that's where the ownership piece comes in for me that if it's mine and you know, it's not like you're gonna get these notes about your own projects like always in good faith, but I think, you know, it's part of the process and I think it's understood even at our indie level that, you know, if we're getting notes from even like an indie producer and not a big studio that it's the sort of thing where I mean, it's just one of the
you know, infinite ways that we have to pivot to get something made and seen without compromising actually what, you know, we want to do or say.
Yeah, so like have you been finding consistency in terms of like your creative work on the writing side or the producing side or the directing side? Like given that there might be some ambivalence with just the macro economics and politics of the world, are you still creating space lately or has it been kind of just a quiet meditative like soul searching position you've been in?
It's, it's been a little bit of both. would say, in terms of productivity and the constant churn, or at least as one would perceive our workflows to be like as an outsider, it's been a little slow. My life's just been sort of chaotic with life things and day job things. And I, you know, have carved out.
a little bit of like time here and there to just like, I've been leaving myself for probably like the past year and a half, like a lot of random voice notes. And it's one of those things where I've always not been a disciplined creator. And I feel like I'm not like super prolific as a result, but it's, you know, part of my process is like, I'll just like,
Jim Vendiola (09:22.282)
word vomit a bunch of things like if I'm like stoned in the middle of the night, you know, just like leaving like voice memos or something or like, you know, first thing in the morning, like,
you know, jotting down or leaving some stream of consciousness about like a dream I've had. Like I typically don't move to expand on any of those things unless I can't get them out of my head. It's nice to like keep a record of them. So just in that regard, it's not too dissimilar from, you know, like my historic workflow of like, I really don't like move forward on something unless I can't get it out of my head. And I just have to like, I just have to like.
birth it into the world somehow. But at the same time, you know, it's not like I haven't been doing anything. A lot of it has been like the boring, and like business work of trying to get like bigger projects off the ground.
Yeah, so yeah, I mean there's like the yeah, there's like the admin careerist approach and then there's just the general creative approach Are you like comfortable with maybe that approach of it's a little inconsistent But you're still at least documenting and jotting down the ideas when they pass But it seems like you're more trusting of well, this is a thing that just can't leave my heart or my head So maybe that's a sign I need to commit to it given like six nine twelve months every few days or week i'm just you know thinking about it even if it's even if you're still like doing voice memos and Outputting a bunch of random ideas
you're more trusting of like doing that one thing. Is that something that's been like working for you for the most part?
Jim Vendiola (10:49.9)
I think historically it has. don't think it like yields. Like I said, like it does not make me a very prolific creator because I do tend to really only key in on things that like I can't get out of my head, but you know, without, without sounding like negative or, you know, throwing shade or anything I do, I do think that it is like,
kind of a quality versus quantity approach. And I do think a lot of indie filmmakers, you know, again, not calling anyone specifically out, but I just think we as indie filmmakers, sometimes, you know, people should just be fucking making fewer things. And I say that because like, you know what, like you want to like,
test your, you know, test things out, exercise demons, just sort of like create and constantly create. Like I'm all for that. I am like the last person to tell someone to like not like follow their dreams or their creative heart in that regard. But like, I think if anyone's ever been like a programmer at a film festival, like, and have seen the amount of like, I don't know.
Things that feel like half-baked ideas that have been like, you know, birthed into the world through actual labor on the backs of like crews who are probably working for next to nothing. Yeah, I could say that like, you know, you know, maybe indie filmmakers like could stand to just like, I don't know, sometimes think about is an idea worth making.
Right. That's like a challenging thought because it's like there's some folks who just want to do like expression for expression sake, regardless of quality. And also there's some folks who I think are unmanned by enthusiasm where it's like, am so enthusiastic about making this thing at all costs, even though the question of like, does this need to be made? this do there need to be like five, 12 hour days for this teen nine aspect ratio project that's like not being edited, not being graded. And it's just like, what was this? But yeah, it's yeah, there's
Mishu Hilmy (12:53.523)
variety level of quality out there.
It's not for me to say. It's not for me to say what you should and shouldn't make because, you know, lot of like fledgling and, you know, early career filmmakers do approach me and I do feel like, you know, one of my strengths as like someone who has been doing this for as long as I have and has like, you know, experienced, you know, a small level of like attention in various circles. do think it's, you know, partially my duty to like impart.
wisdom and like, you know, failures and successes to people who, you know, are really, you know, zealous about doing what we do. But yeah, what was I going to say to that? I had a thought that I lost. But I think the other side to that as, as a neurodivergent person, I think I can say with confidence that a lot of it is just like, so many of us are just like,
so fucking ADHD that like we get an idea and we have to like get it out there and I think sometimes it's just like you know maybe sit with it and see what else it might turn into and you know maybe I'm just projecting my own you know met needs or like the way my brain works onto like other creators yeah I you know I guess I guess I've just never been the type of person who like you know wants to make
a short every weekend, hell or high water and you know, yeah, like exploit my friend's labor for that. Like, I guess, you know, and it might be a confidence thing too. Maybe I don't believe in my stuff, you know, enough to corral, you know, the gang of collaborators.
Mishu Hilmy (14:34.894)
Yeah, we've talked about it before and I think I relate to it in that like maybe it's just where we're at sort of taste wise or career wise where I don't think we're at the place where we just want to grind out reps of of a volatile quality because we know what the price of that is versus someone who's like in college or fresh out of college and they have a crew of like underemployed friends who are down to just like meet up every weekend and you know shoot something even if it's like vertical for you know, Tik Tok or Instagram or narrative and kind of
But I just don't think like we're at that place where we have friends to burn
Totally, totally. it's, I think it's one of those things too. I kind of liken it to like asking your friends to move. Like at one point, like you hit a certain age where you're like, I just can't ask my friends to help me move anymore. I'm too old and like, I'm sure they do it, but like, you know, they quietly hate you when you can really just like pay someone who's in the business of moving your boxes to, you know, in fact, move your boxes. But yeah, also I do think, you know, it,
Part of it is the question of what your end game is. Because yeah, mean, the difference between me and someone who's a TikTok content creator, yeah, they're gonna just be hammering those things out all the time. But that's the opposite of what I've ever wanted to do in this industry. I will sort of take my time and I think spend years developing something. If I feel like it accurately
you know, says something that I want to say and contributes something that I think is meaningful or at least unique or interesting or like asks interesting questions about, you know, the ongoing dialogue that is, you know, making cinema.
Mishu Hilmy (16:23.138)
Whether it is creating cinematic works for a large public, whether it's that or even a TikTok, I think it's just like a different end game and a different goal, you know, like something that you can sort of revisit and repeat and rewatch that isn't, you know, just a one minute thing that's delightful in the moment. I think there's a certain challenge there. And I think it's also what gets your jollies off as someone who likes to express things. Some people just like to express things like churn and burn real fast, but for you, it seems like
the taste you've developed is like creating something that's more personal or maybe that requires a little bit more depth and time.
I like to think so. And I think as like a consumer of movies and just like an avid fan, think, you know, a lot of times I'm not only watching movies to be entertained, but I'm sort of looking for things that like may not be said or may be said in a different way and how I could maybe sort of like engage with that material by making my own thing that is like similar or, you know.
around disagreement of that or, you know, an addendum to that idea.
Yeah, and do find like that, you're, you've been exploring that lately or are there a couple of projects that you've been coming back to or things that are you thinking on? Like I know you mentioned you might be, you know, in the midst of developing something if you do want to share anything, but I'm just curious, like what's been, what's been the approach lately at least.
Jim Vendiola (17:50.638)
Yeah, the approach I think, you know, I have been thinking a lot about inspiration and where where we get our ideas from and how that relates to genre from
a historical perspective and the idea of combining genre. I think like none of these concepts are new. But in terms of having a lot of downtime where I'm not like making a lot of work right now and rather just kind of like developing these longer standing things that do take a lot more, I guess, like thought and development in terms of like their plot and their execution.
I've been thinking about that a lot because I think, you know, especially with TikTok and sort of, God, I'm going to sound like a boomer because I'm like losing my words and I don't remember what, what even they're called, but we, know, it's like a fan edit or, know, do you know what these things are? it's just, so, you know, we put everything in a blender and I feel like, you know, more than ever, like it's almost like.
.
Jim Vendiola (19:03.576)
this post postmodern idea of like, like the memeification of everything. So everything will, you know, everything that gets made with the intention of being something like cinematically will eventually like become a meme or a fan edit or, you know, just a joke on the internet. And so it is just like this post post post post modernization of all like our creative media and our content. so like, I think
In some regard, that's something I've been thinking about, but I've also been thinking about the way in which cinema now is so self-aware in a way that is also getting sickening to me. not to be snobby or obnoxious, just think, for example, the horror genre, which I love so much and as you know is like...
largely my bread and butter. has become so self-aware. you think about like how groundbreaking Scream was in like 1996 or whatever. And that's like, Jesus, that was like 30 years ago. Right. And the way that like horror movies are so self-referential now, it's just like, can we just like, I don't know, step back and maybe not do that, or at least like do it in a way that like doesn't have to be.
I don't know. In a way, it feels like this like indirect cinematic universe of self-reference, like everything has to be aware of everything else, you know? And so I have been thinking about in my own work, how I could do something that is not that. And not only is not that, but has some kind of like, I don't know, value that it doesn't seem so like hyper fixated on like.
the genre that it's in, you know, that can just exist alongside other works and, you know, like not to sound like a traditionalist because I do, I do love subverting genre and combining genre, but I think there's a way to do it that doesn't, I don't know, it doesn't feel so like, I don't know, YouTube or TikTok inspired.
Mishu Hilmy (21:11.17)
Just taste-wise, I've generally, I don't know, for whatever reason, just don't like those nods, winks, or like the meta-ness of things. The one that's just like self-aware. Especially, you know, the projection is like, is this not a security to kind of like get a laugh? It does like erode stakes and like makes it kind of porous and like destroys the emotional logic of something if you are too like meta or winking. Especially for something like a horror where I imagine you want that tension. Yeah, it's a taste thing. And I remember maybe like 10 years ago reading about
I don't think this word is relevant anymore, but the sentiment of like transmedia marketing, is like the trying to make the lines between what's marketing and what's consumed porous, you know, like, you're going to call this phone number and get to talk to Heath Ledger's, the Joker or something like that. Like, so then you have like a more connected experience of all these ways to, you know, relate to the media you're about to consume. So it's like this per, I think it's all a marketing or commerce ploy of like to pervade into your life.
where it's no longer a self-contained experience, but rather like you can consume every iteration of this thing. And like, yeah, I think that's like a future state and already is a future state experience of storytelling, but I just, for whatever reason, I'm not drawn to it. I'd rather have like the art object be it in it of itself.
Yeah, yeah. mean, feels it. Well, it feels and is literally, you know, capitalistic. It is just like, you know, filmmaking as capitalism and as a as commodity. You know, I'm not like some, you know, DIY dorm room dipshit who doesn't understand, you know, the the correlation between, you know.
capitalism and filmmaking and how, you know, we cannot produce movies of any kind of scale without said capital, you know, like that's obvious. But yeah, I think what you're talking about is more like this like...
Jim Vendiola (23:08.234)
franchise forward idea of filmmaking as well as like, you know, one of the like buzzwords. I don't even know if it's still like an industry buzzword because these things like are, you know, cycle themselves out every like, you know, six to eight weeks. But like, what were they calling it like a year or two ago, like big world.
You know, big world ideas, can we expand it into a show or, you know, a podcast spinoff? like, that's one of the things that I thought was cool and is cool conceptually about like, you know.
In light of like recent things, think like the Sinners deal, Sinners as an original idea is cool, not only because of like the landmark sort of deal Ryan Coogler made and what that means in terms of, you know, black ownership.
and the way that the movie speaks about it. But also I love the idea that like he was essentially like, no, this is not going to be a fucking franchise because I made this movie to stop making franchise movies. But it's still a big movie. It's still an expensive movie and like it's making a ton of money.
Yeah, and even that when I walked away I'm like, this is a big world like you can you know do a prequel in Ireland in the late 18s you know, but yeah whether he is you know honest about not expanding it that'd be great but it's also like there's a lot there is a whole world to this and it's very rich like how do you like how do you feel about the idea of world building or do you even think about that when you're like creating something like this this could expand into a multiverse of ideas are you pretty much just dedicated
Mishu Hilmy (24:43.434)
on the story at hand.
Yeah, I, you know, maybe this is not wise of me, but I tend to, you know, in terms of wanting an ongoing career, I think outside of like water bottle tours, I do not think about my own material as as franchises or as big world things. Of course, when you're in rooms, you do want to, you know, either lie through your through your teeth or at least
try to play ball and say, yes, you know, I would be amenable to having a potential discussion down the line of expanding this into something if, you know, you know, if you're going to make sure I could keep my lights on kind of thing. The sustainability of having these conversations like at studios, of course, you want to be open to that. But in terms of like creatively, does it like, you know, fill my cup to think about like, you know,
a bigger world for my own things. Not really. I think what maybe is sort of the ancillary thing that interests me a lot more is not just, not a big world of the same world, but just being able to make thematically similar things. Just sort of like in the old like, auteur idea of like, you know, we're all kind of like essentially remaking the same movie. You know?
Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like, like Osgood Perkins seems like someone who's really capitalized on that thematic element of like creating a vibe and even a marketing scheme that's like, you know, don't want to say self-referential, but of the horror directors, I think he's recently tapped into something that I haven't seen in a minute.
Jim Vendiola (26:32.546)
Yeah, and you know, I think that that's a little different, right? Because he is not making like these cinematic horror universes for which I'm grateful, but I think the direction he's moving in is a direction that I also sort of strive for in my own work where I think he's sort of hitting a lot of like older school references of the genre and he seems like...
a student of the genre and of other genres that aren't directly related to horror that he's just kind of incorporating. And, you know, I even see that right down to obviously he's not designing these posters, but I see it right down to the marketing of his movies that like, you know, it's it's cool to have like, you know, retro, like 70s, like designs in his movie posters. Like, I see that. I'm like, I'd much rather, you know, see something like that than.
the way that a lot of like indie filmmakers and you know even studios like I mean they're they're all just like people don't want to see the movie unless we have like the entire cast unless we have like 50 faces on this fucking poster you know so yeah
Gosh, I keep talking about this book published in 2003 by Arthur Devaney, Hollywood Economics. And it's just like a savage takedown of like all conventional wisdom of like studios and like actors have no sway on the economics of how much money a movie can make. Marketing has no sway. The only thing that can really make a movie, you know, have legs is like, is it good? And do people, people ought to see it. Like demand cannot be determined until it exists and it's out there in the audience. So it's like the idea of like,
well, we need to have like five faces on this, because that'll definitely make money. It's such a random, decentered industry, like theatrical distribution, that there's virtually nothing that adds, can be made certain. It's all just randomness. yeah, it's frustrating, because at the artistic level, we only have so much sway if we are going theatrical, depending on the distributor around marketing, unless it's a little bit indie.
Mishu Hilmy (28:39.618)
But when it comes to you at least, you mentioned being a student of films. How have you actively maintained either the student mindset, especially if we can't direct on set every week or every month, how are you keeping your skills sharp as that student mindset?
I think the easiest and probably most frequent way I have been doing that is just yeah, just watching old movies and revisiting
movies in particular, like lately revisiting movies that I thought were really great when I was younger and seeing them with like the eyes and you know, the life experience of a middle aged man because yeah, I feel like those kinds of things are can be pretty revelatory and they can be educational, you know, most importantly, like personally educational, I think like I see things.
that I used to like and it's just like, well, who was I like 20 years ago or who was I when I was a teenager and why do I dislike this or love this now or feel the same way about it? So yeah, no, I think that's an interesting thing to do. think, you know, always trying to catch up on the backlog of like, you know, canon that, you know, you've never seen or even things that like.
people really love that aren't necessarily like Canon, but are a beloved film. And to go back and see that like past all the hype and just be like, why, why do people hate this? know, because a lot of it is anticipation, right? Like, literally, I was thinking about this last night because I wanted to revisit Veronica Mars, the TV series. And, you know, back in the day when, you know,
Jim Vendiola (30:24.366)
Kristen Bell and the creators of that show crowd-sourced or crowd-funded the movie version. I guess like everybody seemed to hate the movie, you know? And I watched this show and the movie and like, you know, the fourth season that Hulu produced for the first time during the pandemic. And I thought all of it was great. And I was just like, because I did not have like this anticipation that this
I had zero idea what this Veronica Mars movie was going to be like. And yeah, think it let a lot of people down. And I'm like, well, I had literally no stake in this.
To me that speaks to still that uncertainty of like everything's created in the zeitgeist of its moment and like people's expectations are going to and they're all Decentered like all these expectations are decentered and a certain fandom can create like a narrative and a narrative is gonna add a degree of like, you know probability mass to the folks experience of it, but like when you
remove it from that initial zeitgeist or that context, you can see it with like fresh eyes and maybe a degree of objectivity, especially for you, like you have no stakes in it, but it's just like those types of things can, you know, kill something. Like I felt like the movie First Man, I think that was maybe a Damien Chazelle movie with Ryan Gosling like being, you know, the first man on the moon was just not right for the moment, but it's like probably one of the best biopics I've ever seen.
Yeah, no, I certainly relate to that idea when you see things sort of in the context that they're in, but also out of the context. you know, it does change a thing. You know, I think about that a lot as well when we start getting these like buzz films from festivals and I forget who talked about it and who maybe formalized it into
Jim Vendiola (32:14.016)
like a psychological effect, but there is this idea where you're so pumped on the fact that like you're the first person to see something that maybe you love it or hate it more than it deserves, which usually people love it more. And that creates festival buzz. And I feel like as someone who doesn't get to see many films, like in that context, like I'm rarely the person that gets to be at.
a big festival to see this movie for the first time with an audience and be like, everybody has to see this and like feel like a tastemaker because like I got to see it first. like oftentimes I feel like as the person that gets to see it, like upon theatrical release or on streaming, I'm usually like, this is what fucking people were going shit over. Like, you know, and I don't know what that phenomenon is. And again, I feel like, you know, in so many regards during.
this like recording I come off as a hater. I'm truly not. just, you know, these are questions I ask myself if only to be considerate to an audience and not like deliver like the same drivel that like, I feel like we're getting served, you know, on the regular.
I relate to that because I think there's a degree of like bias and elitism right like I think if especially if you're like a pro letterbox user you're at Sundance or Ken or wherever like if half of the cast is on stage in you know the best clothes you've ever seen like it's gonna be hard to like shit on a work I mean you have to have a real degree of integrity to see something go like this is absolute garbage when the whole cast and crew are giving the backstory of the experience that you're getting like
a secret window into because you're at the brick and mortar, you know, premiere level festival. And then after X number of months, when it finally gets to us, you know, poor wretched masses, we're like, I don't get it. I don't get it. So I do wonder like the degree of, you know, starfuckery bias and also I think elitism, which is heavy in this industry, especially with like the institutional structures of the film festival route. like
Mishu Hilmy (34:19.469)
I mean, I have my own resentments around all that stuff, but like, how do you deal with what is, you know, a traditionalist route, right? Like, could be, potentially be very traditionalist, very institutionalist, like, make my thing and pray I get some, you know, A-tier festival buzz. So like, how do you at least fight against that well-worn path that can easily seduce you into like, I gotta make something that gets into like a prestige horror fest or a prestige film fest to make waves.
Yeah, no, I think I think that's a really good question because, you know, as much as I am probably coming off some type of way, also do feel like I spend a lot of time advising filmmakers on festival strategy. A lot of people like.
reach out to me and they're like, Hey, you got into this festival, you premiered at this festival. Can you give me pointers and can you look at like, you know, what my rough cut looks like, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I, I, am no pioneer.
How are you dealing with the awareness that you can easily go the traditionalist route, the elitist route, the institutionalist route by really thinking about the film festivals? How are you actively competing against that impulse to solely rely on using the festival as the way you break?
Yeah, yeah, no, I, well, I think in terms of actually getting into festivals, I think, you know, it's sort of like I'm of two minds about it, right? Because if you're shooting a film specifically to get a lot of festival play, I think if, if you do it with solely that intent, which is to say that you think you have a concept.
Jim Vendiola (36:18.796)
that would be very interesting at festivals. You execute it with all the parameters of being like a festival ready film. I think you will probably get into a lot of festivals, whether or not it will be like so obviously soulless and not from the heart. think, I think that's also true. I
Yeah, I think it's gotta be a combination of both. I do have a lot of people ask, what pointers do you have? Because you played at this festival, you premiered at this festival, I just submitted, what do you think I should do with this edit? And I think there are things that make sense, which is just like, the shorter your piece, the better. And that goes for features or shorts, kill your darlings.
cut out as much of the fat as possible, especially with shorts programs, right? Because they want the most bang for their bucks. The shorter your film is, the more that they can program into that block. But I also do think that we always have to have like...
whether or not it exists and you you can run with it or it doesn't exist and you have to find a way to like, you know, make yourself believe, you know, the hype about yourself. I do think we, you know, as creators have to trust like that we do have something interesting to say. That's not always, that's not always the case. So when this is like, goes back to what I was saying where it's like, I'm not making like a short like.
I'm just not making a ton of shorts because I just don't feel like I have that many unique things to say. then like, you know, and then when I get obsessed with an idea, I'll be like, okay, yeah, this is like appropriate for me to like spend not only so much of my time, but like other people's time. And then the time of the audience to like show them this and be like, Hey, like, I hope this gives you nightmares, you know, in a good way. Yeah. And in a retaining way. Yeah. Thanks. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (38:21.26)
Yeah, I mean, it's pretty difficult, you know?
That's the highest compliment like I think anyone can give me is that like, you know, they remain haunted by that imagery as am I like sometimes I'll like scroll past or like my iPhone will remind me of like the BTS and I'm just like, Jesus Christ, what is wrong with me? And, and yeah, I think that's the thing. Like we have to like, you know, find, find the courage to say like, yes, I have like,
something to say and I'm going to like, I'm going to make this thing and I'm going to put it out there and maybe, you know, you know, every, I feel like most things have already been said, but like, you know, if you can say it like in a fresh way that like sticks in people's heads, like that's, know, that first and foremost is the thing that you should like, you know, should motivate you. But I also think it never hurts to like understand what festival programmers are also looking for in terms of like runtime and theme and you know, what might be.
historically what they program in terms of genre and theme. Like, you know, a lot of people just like blast film freeway with a bunch of submissions and spend so much of their money that like they probably don't have submitting to every festival because they think their film is so great and your film might be amazing. But like you also like could stand to do the research and like just look at like, you know, the historical programming of a festival that's like readily available for free on their website to see like.
do they program films like mine, you know?
Mishu Hilmy (39:52.182)
Yeah, yeah, it's like doing the homework and no, also it's like, yeah, it's like these, these curators at these sort of institutions, whether they are elitist curators, they also have their own point of view of what kind of taste they're trying to make. And if they're generous, they want an audience to have a great experience. But you know, some curators programmers might not be, they might be just trying to like flex, flex their esoteric desires for what an audience should suffer through and all that's out of your control. I think, you know, it's kind of that thing of like people making a lot of stuff.
I think there's something about volume when it comes to learning the mechanics of the craft that is great to do. I think maybe because I have a long theater background, especially with improvising of putting up thousands of scenes, I've been able to at least get that volume while for like a filmmaking, it's much harder to get the volume to like learn the technique of the craft. But just because you're learning technique doesn't mean you have a perspective or a point of view. To me, much more.
higher impact if you are taking, you know, three, six, 12, 24 months to really hone in on like, what is the perspective that's uniquely yours without irony or self consciousness. Because that's, that's it rather than just blasting out a dozen shorts that are like, you know, I don't want to say soulless, but are lacking in point of view other than the sexy mechanics that they were captured in, you know, on an Ari or on a great, great tools.
No, absolutely. Yeah. And I, you know, I get like the, you know, the inclination to do that, you know, but I, find myself saying this more often than I would like, but I'm also just like, for a lot of shorts, it's like, what, you know, I come away and I'm like, why that
that short just took place in an apartment. Why is it shot in anamorphic? Like, you know, what, what, is the value of framing these people against these bare walls in this aspect ratio? And that's the thing. It's like.
Mishu Hilmy (41:51.63)
I'm a fur.
Yeah, like I'd rather you shoot it on an iPhone and be like, like fuck it. Like I made this with heart and like gorilla style rather than with like fancy gear that I didn't know what to do with, you know.
Do you think it's a matter of ethics or integrity? Because I guess I'm curious around like how deeply are you thinking about your point of view, your perspective, the piece's kind of conscious point of view, subconscious point of view, and like how do you think about the audience in relation to that? So like, how are you thinking about your point of view? How are you thinking about your piece's, know, witting or unwitting point of view and like what the audience should experience? Are you thinking about that when you're writing or you're directing?
Absolutely. mean, I really try to, and I try to sort of like be driven and motivated by those things. And I think maybe that goes back to sort of like me not running with every semi interesting to me idea that I might have spat into a voice note is if I feel like it doesn't.
sort of like, I don't know, like if it doesn't fall into my specific creative brand and something that I feel like I can tell from like my unique perspective, then that's another reason why I probably like don't pursue it at least until I can justify it in those.
Jim Vendiola (43:11.15)
regards like, oh yeah, this is, you my wheelhouse for these reasons, because like, I make movies about like X, Y, and Z, or I make movies, like, as a queer person, or like, I make movies as like, the child of like, immigrants, you know, or, you know, as an Asian person. And, you know, and it's not even like, always an identity thing. It's like an experience thing. It's like, you know,
partially the right what you know thing, like can I even like tell this story from a unique perspective and a perspective that isn't like wildly out of sync with like maybe the community I'm like, you know, trying to like depict. So there's, know, that question of like,
cultural ethics and responsibility, as well as like, I think, yeah, the artistic integrity of like, do I have like an interesting approach to this? Or is it just gonna be sort of like, I don't know, a copy of something I like that someone else made?
I mean the fact that you're thinking about it does show like a degree of integrity versus like some people probably are just fine like they just want to get the bag or they want the approbation and it's like this is just a straight up straight up copy and I don't think we hang out with a lot of folks who are approaching it that or if we see them around I just don't think they're like with our vibe yeah so like when it comes to like writing and directing like do you find that you'd prefer to write more or you're happy being a bit of a mercenary hired gun like do you would you prefer
Because I know you've directed stuff you haven't written, so where are you at in terms of the balance of writing the majority of your projects or directing things that excite you?
Jim Vendiola (44:46.594)
I do like to have some sort of personal stake in the material or the story that has been generated prior to me getting to direct something. so whether or not that's having a story by credit and, you know, having my co-writer sort of like take the reins on most things with me having, you know, sort of second credit co-writer status of just like,
these are the ideas that I think should be put into this. definitely, yeah, mean, it's hard for me to get into directing material that, even if I didn't have some involvement in the writing process, it's difficult for me that, I mean, I think a lot of directors are like this, that if I just don't have some sort of personal connection or personal way into the material, yeah, I don't.
particularly feel confident directing it, at least right off the bat. mean, you know, it might take me a little while to like find my way into the material. Yeah, I mean, I think that's also why I tend to be more drawn towards genres that like I would, you know, continue to create in as well, you know, like the horror thriller sort of like that, that type of, you know, face.
I don't know if that answers your question.
Yeah, no, I think so. I relate because it's like, I think I am very picky and it's because I write so much that like it's hard for me to see something that meets the caliber of like revision and writing that would get me even excited to like be a bit of a hired gun in directing it. And, you know, maybe down the line, I'm not opposed to it, but where I'm at right now, I just, it's a struggle to see someone who's like willing to commit to the word or the revising that's, you know, I don't even think for me it's like perfectionism. It's more of like
Mishu Hilmy (46:42.274)
just my weird idiosyncratic taste that it's hard for me to want to direct something unless there's the writer would need to be like comfortable going like, let's, let's, you know, co-writer story by just to massage this a bit.
Yeah, massage a bit or even, you know, like, Hey, writer, do you trust me injecting this whole sort of like, don't know, experiential metaphor that maybe was not on your mind, but I could really bring to life, you know, like visually and, you know, performatively, you know, and through other aspects of like the directing process, you know,
Yeah, and then for you to get like a preference around like pre-production, production, post-production, Alicia Inka or releasing. Do you have something that's kind of preferential in terms of like the experience, the craft of doing it?
Well, I think pre-production sucks. I think it's so hard and I think it's like so, it can be so discouraging. And I'm saying that in worst case scenario, but you know, there's always a point in pre-production that is like grueling. Cause it could also be super exciting. You know, and sometimes it's both things at the same time. I love production. I know a lot of people don't say that.
but I love being on set. I love having fun on set. Even when things don't go well, is deeply rewarding to sort of work through those problems and arrive at something that may not be like your original vision. you know.
Jim Vendiola (48:14.484)
working at the budgets we work at, you know, I think we're never executing our original vision, but, you know, doing the thing that, that we can, not only that we can live with, but that feels good in terms of like, you know, we made the most of it and we captured like, you know, potentially something special. And if we didn't do that in, in production post for that, which I also enjoy. So I would say that like, I like production maybe first and foremost and post production can be.
pretty fun too, at least once the footage starts shaping up. The assemblies can be pretty grueling.
You were talking earlier about the elements of identity, right? When it comes to identity and those elements, how do you deal with the self-consciousness or the ethics of, oh, am I exploiting this? Am I exploiting my community? Are these identity markers? Or am I trying to create something honest? How often do you inject that or take it? Yeah, how do you just navigate that? I'm curious.
That's a really good question because I think now more than ever I feel like people rely on their personal identities somewhat too heavily in terms of how the weight it carries with the piece, right? Like I think identity should serve the narrative and the sort of the tone and the symbolism of
of the piece, but I don't think it should necessarily simply be about the identity itself, you know? And so, you know, when I was submitting Pretty Pickle, a lot of, you know, I was paying attention to how little or how much certain fests embraced those identity markers. And I would adjust my cover letter and director statement.
Jim Vendiola (50:07.776)
accordingly. And you know, I'm not gonna lie, I feel like sometimes I got into festivals because I am a queer brown person. And I will say that like sometimes I literally did not get into festivals because I am a queer brown person. And I said my film was like,
you know, about Eurocentrism and white feminism and all these things that are not necessarily apparent in Pretty Pickle, which you've seen, but like, you know, the whole idea of, you know, without spoiling the movie, the whole idea about like, like an Asian guy getting to like, you know, bang the hot white girl and then like discovering something really horrific about her metaphorically, like, yeah.
metaphorically, that could be about white feminism. Like you're aligned with someone who like is in like a position of power and access societally that maybe you're not privy to. And also like, you know, there's the stereotype of like Asian men being like the least desirable on dating apps and all these things. And so when you start to sort of like unpack the movie in that way, like
Those things by design are not readily apparent because I did not want to make a horror movie about identity. I wanted it to be this ancillary thing that people could pick up on and people have picked up on it. But it's I don't think it's like super obvious. But, you know, I'm going to say right now, I don't think like, you know, the genre boys club, like, you know, the southern genre fest circuit like took kindly to that feel like.
My film played everywhere and was like eagerly anticipated everywhere except for that territory suspiciously. And, you know, going back to Festival Strategy, I feel like I should have been more careful, you know, if I wanted to play there, if my goal was to play down there, which it was, I probably should have been more careful and not as finger pointy, you know, maybe about those kinds of things in my director's statements and press kit and cover letter.
Jim Vendiola (52:11.948)
So yeah, that's just a long way of saying that like, yeah, I do think it's important in terms of like your unique perspective as a director. think we should all feel emboldened to approach any story or any piece, whether or not it's like our original work or like, you know, a gun for hire thing, like with like our unique perspective. But I don't think like, you know, sometimes stories like.
There's not enough there to basically just, you know, be like, hey, this piece is about my unique perspective.
Yeah, because I do think it's like perspective require point of view and perspective require like thought and deconstruction and like putting things back together. The sheer nature of having an identity is like the least interesting thing about anyone. Like, but it's how you have experienced the world and then create the point of view that might have been, you know, a real result of that identity because anyone can have an identity and have the trashiest, most basic, most vile point of view, regardless of like
what what markers you have so i don't think having an identity in and of itself is um there and i think there's a form of erasure by just like plug and play of like oh yeah the there's nothing textually contextually or subtextually that speaks to identity we're just like you know this is a an asian family this is a black family this is a queer family but the the elements of the story have nothing to do with it which is like a form of erasure but i think it takes work to go through your lived experience within whatever identity and create a perspective
that some folks either just don't want to see or don't get. But yeah, by the sheer virtue of just having it in the, I don't think that's enough.
Jim Vendiola (53:53.674)
It isn't. No, it definitely isn't. And I think that's where sometimes people confuse, you know, at least in, you know, how I see it, you know, people confuse what their what their value is in that regard, the value of their identity, because, you know, to approach something.
that feels authentic to your values and identity, yeah, doesn't have to be blatant or apparent, and the piece doesn't have to be about who you are, but I feel like there's a sincere way to do something, and there is a less sincere way to do it. And yeah, if you're comfortable doing that, yeah, if I was hired to direct something that like, you know, I...
could not find my way into emotionally or, you know, based on my identity, I'd probably still do it, but like, I would definitely be phoning it in versus something that like, I was personally passionate about.
Thanksgiving, uncertain and volatile the industry is. How have you stayed like motivated and connected to it and, know, to stay with it or stick with it.
To varying degrees of success and failure, definitely. Like, no, I definitely like, think a lot about not doing it and how much easier in a lot of regards my life would be if I just fucking gave it up and didn't do it because like, you know, to quote the great Miyazaki filmmaking is suffering. But yeah, but then I see it and I see like...
Jim Vendiola (55:24.512)
other dipshits doing it and I'm like, well, if they're doing it, like then I have to fucking keep doing it because who else is going to like, who else is going to provide the, you know, the response piece to this like garbage out there. And again, like I think I'm coming off as like, I said, like I'm coming off as a huge hater, but like also like, I feel like the reason a lot of like indie filmmakers like
should be doing what they're doing is like, you know, a lot of us do have antidotes to the drivel out there, you know, and I, I don't like, yeah, I don't want to come off as combative either, but I do think definitely like, you know, when, it's, just, it's so gratifying when you make something and you bleed for something and you pull it to the finish line and then you show it and then someone like, thanks you for it and is inspired by it and tells you that like,
I never would have expected your movie ended that way or I don't like this kind of movie but by the time your movie ended I was like okay maybe I do like this kind of movie so yeah I mean the potential of showing someone or an audience like something different that they haven't seen before or having them like experience something that like they weren't expecting that they're gonna like take with them I mean that
that I guess like what pulls me out of the like muck of like, you know, maybe I should just have like an easy life, you know.
Yeah, yeah, I relate. Well, yeah, thank you so much for sharing and
Jim Vendiola (56:53.662)
Likewise, man. Yeah.
you
Mishu Hilmy (57:01.358)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation. Okay, for those sticking around creative...
prompt, this is a little voice memo vault for the next week or for one week, record a 30 second voice memo every day, capturing a creative idea, image, emotional fragment, anything, just 30 seconds, do a little voice memo, don't judge it, archive it, and then at the end of seven days or the end of the week, review it and label the ones that still feel sticky or haunt you or get you thinking about it. this is kind of grounded in cognitive offloading and spaced reflection, which,
cognitive offloading is practicing getting your thoughts out of your head and into a trusted space like a journal, a notebook, a voice memo. So your brain doesn't have to juggle everything at once. And I think this is written a lot by a psychologist, Daniel Levitan, and that productivity expert, David Allen, of getting things done. So a fun way to just practice offloading some of the thoughts. And space reflection is a nice way to find meaning and returning to an idea after some time has passed.
and reveal what's actually important to you, what sticks, what matters. So I believe this is backed up by Ben Nick Carey on how we learn showing that letting time pass helps sort out the meaningful from the momentary. So give it a shot, do the voice memo vault one week, 30 seconds of voice memos and see how that works for you. All right, thanks for listening this far and have a great day.
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