Madison Cunningham

It was originally a nineteenth century parlor game where players would ask each other thirty five questions aimed at revealing the other player's true nature. It's just the scientific method really. In asking different people the same set of questions, you can make observations about which truths appeared to me universal.

I love this discipline, and it made me wonder, what if these questions were just the jumping off point, what greater depths would be revealed if I ask these questions as conversation starters with thought leaders and trailblazers across all these different disciplines. So I adapted prus questionnaire and I wrote my own seven questions that I personally think a pertinent to a person's story. They are, when and where were you happiest? What is the quality you like least

about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you? What question would you most like answered? What person, place, or experience has shaped you the most? What would be your last meal? And can you tell me something in your life that's grown out of a personal disaster? And I've gathered a group of really remarkable people, ones that I am honored and humbled to have had the chance to engage with. You may not hear their answers to

all seven of these questions. We've whittled it down to which questions closest to their experience or the most surprising, or created the most fertile ground to connect. My guest today is musician and songwriter Madison Cunningham at She is one of the youngest guests I've had on my show, but you wouldn't know it from the wisdom and sort of old soulness that radiates not only through the lyrics

she writes, but also in the way she speaks. Whether she's performing solo or sharing the stage with some of folk music's biggest names. Madison's musical talents are really not to be missed. I love hearing a songwriter describe the world in their own words, and it was delightful hearing Madison's perspective on my questions. I've really hope you enjoy our lovely conversation. What person, place, or experience most altered your life? I would say music has been the thing.

I think touring the country and the world was the thing that very much challenged my worldview and my line of thinking because I was immediately met with or I should say, my opinions were met with experiences, and that changes everything. You can have thoughts about the way you think life should be or the way you've known it to be with them. When you like actually experienced life and open yourself up to other people's experiences, your opinions

on things drastically changed. And I remember the first tour I ever did. I was opening for Chris Thealy and the Punch Brothers, and we both had a really similar background, like both grew up in the church. We were both homeschooled the whole way through, and I don't know many people who had a similar story like that. We just were talking on the bus and I just was asking questions and I just will never forget one thing that

he said to me. He's like, you're twenty one now, and I was like yeah, and he was like, yeah, things are going to change for you. And he wasn't arrogant or like condescending or anything. It just was like he was coming from a place of sincerely sympathizing with me and going or empathizing maybe and being like, I know exactly what you're saying, and I understand it completely and why you're asking these things, but also like it's

going to change for you. I just know it. And he was right like and I don't even remember exactly what I asked him, but I remember the place that it was coming from. And I was very just fearful. I just I just was nervous and scared, and I felt I was experiencing impostor syndrome too. So I always say music in a way saved my life, and I think made me the person that I am because it just immediately challenged me and caused me to open my

eyes and touch the world in a different way. Did you write different music before music became your I don't want to use the word escape, but maybe your evolution out of that that first part of your life. Did you write music while you were still within it? And then did you write your way out of it? Yes? And yes? And what was that music like? Like? Do you have recordings of it? Like? What was it like? I feel like I'm still very much that person. Always

had a curiosity of like breaking musical rules. I really really enjoyed that and just had a curiosity around that. But in terms of like writing, my lyrics were very stale and they didn't show anything. They just told everything. I have a bit of embarrassment around that phase of writing that. There was a whole record that I did that had all of the songs on it, which has since been taken down, and again, like, musically I'm very proud of that record, but thematically and lyrically, I just

felt that I was showing my age. I think I wrote my way out of it. Like I had a friend who had sent me a book. Have you ever read the book Writing Better Lyrics by Pat Pattinson? No, Yeah you should. It's within the first three chapters you get his point and like that's just enough to change you and to inspire you, and the rest of the books great too. But he goes on this whole tangent about object writing and sort of how to write from your senses, and that really teaches you how to write

in metaphor and to incorporate imagery and that phase. I was probably eighteen when I read that book, and I just remember that my writing started to take a turn because I would think about those exercises and his whole thing is like, you write on an object using your senses. You write every day, but it can only be for ten minutes, so when the timer goes off, you have to be done. It doesn't matter if your thought was finished or not. But it's all about teaching the brain

to dive deeper in a shorter amount of time. So just when I did that and kind of went full force with that exercise, I really feel like that's when I started to write songs that I was proud of and could like get behind. Now, Great, that's really cool. I want to check that book out. It's incredible. I mean from the first page or like just reading the way that a writer writes, it's so inspiring. I think you totally dig it. What question would you most like answered?

I think this is really on the nose, but I would love to know if there was an afterlife or not. Like, I don't know if everybody feels that way, but for me, it's like that would maybe help things in terms of like the way that we grieve. It's like, well, we see that person again. I don't know. Did you have a spiritual upbringing? I totally did. I did. Yeah, And so much of my young adult life has been shedding all of that but also coming back to it in

different ways that I can't sort of help. Like, I guess that question was planted in me as a kid, but there was always an answer for it. There was always like, yes, there is there is the hope of that. And now I still have that question, but don't feel like I have an answer. And there's a mystery to that. There's a mystery that I've become totally comfortable with. But I would like to know. Yeah, I would too, I

would too. I mean, I think it's really tricky because my when you're a kid and you ask questions, like regardless of whether when came from a spiritual household or not, you ask questions, and I know as a parent, you endeavor to answer that question no matter what it is. You try and find an answer yeah, I'm so aware of how little I've gone. I don't know, Like I felt like it was such a cop out and wanted

to offer something up that. I think it's really interesting that kids in a way have to share the certainty of their parents answers, and maybe those questions go back to being questions and you don't have an answer for them totally. It's such a funny thing, Like things I thought I was sure about, I realized it was just my parents gave me that answer because they were my parents.

I feel like all these big questions happened late at night, it's like dark outside and things start to feel a little bit scarier, and you ask these questions that are going to be in your head, you know, or in your dreams or whatever to your parents, And I'm like, how much of it was them putting on a brave face and filling the silence and wanting to be a pillar for me and say, yeah, this is this is the answer to this, probably, you know, like being an

adult now and knowing how much I'd say I don't know. That was also their way of loving me. They wanted to give an answer to help me probably just be able to rest my head and go to bed false asleep, like when you see a little child's face going, what happens when you die? Oh? Like you really? You know, I've leaned pretty hard into clouds in heaven. I'm not gonna lie. I did a lot of that face with this little face staring up from the dinosaur duve. Oh

my god, it happens when you die. Mom, Oh darling, Oh, it's lovely. Don't worry. It's so lovely, you know. And he never questioned me, And then like obviously now you know we have these conversations. It's really it's interesting. But I want to know that too. Also feel like maybe there's a reason that we just don't because life wouldn't resonate in the way that it did if we were like, it'll be fine, and I give a funk, it's fine.

There's so many people that I grew up with who act like that because of the certitude and what they think and know to be true, where it's like, what, there is a heaven and the afterlife is where it's at, and that don't sweat it in this life if it's not going your way. Yeah. The way that they treat people as a result of that it's like to me or the earth or whatever it is, it's like, how

is this okay to you? Seeing that? Observing that that started to just make me kind of like question, you know, it's like, we are existing now, Why are we pretending like we understand that it's going to be taken care of later, or that we shouldn't be thoughtful about these issues that are happening now, or that we shouldn't be attentive to our neighbors or whatever. It's like, I just felt like such an oxymoron to me to like claim to be a Christian and to then move through the

world that way. But you know, that's a whole other conversation. But I feel now like in my life, when the words I don't know come out of my mouth, I feel a sense of relief. It's like releasing this pressure that I have to maybe feel like I need the answers for everything, and to just be like, actually, that's not for me to decide, it's not for me to say, and that's okay. Yeah, it's it's liberating. Do you find

that with songwriting? I found that a little bit. What if I was stuck and I genuinely didn't know what that verse was, or what that chorus or what was supposed to be doing. I would say out loud, I don't know, and then I will go and do something else.

And it was invariably, necessarily always, but I would say about nine at the time in doing that other thing, whether it was going for a walk, going for stuff, going to the supermarket, that the idea or the link the bridge would come, or the idea of the lyrics.

I think there's massive freedom and I don't know. It's the key maybe, and there's sometimes answers like you can't guarantee that, but like in the action of saying I don't know and then going for a surf or going on a walk, some of those say they're like as simple as lyrical questions sort themselves out where you're like, oh, that's the end of the verse. All of my favorite

writers have such strict regiments. They don't only prioritize writing, they prioritize not writing as well, And that them is like a part of it, you know, Yeah, that's brilliant, and that is so true. And I think even like with writing anything, or maybe even with challenges as a whole, the idea of leave it alone, like step away from that and allow the sort of now of discover rate as opposed to just staying in the certainty of I don't know. I think it can actually be incredibly liberating.

That's really interesting. It's in the other stuff. The creativity is in the other stuff, as well as the sitting there with the guitar or at the piano exactly yet. To use an audio example, it's like some of the biggest sounds are made from the lightest touch. You can use that in writing. It's like we want to put our heavy hand on it because we want product, we want things to be finished an instant, when it's like sometimes we just have to like lighten up on our

touch of the song and let it just grow. I feel like songs are like living things that if you give it the right amount of water and sunlight and attention, they will they will grow. I was writing over the Pandemic with Gary light Body, who's a really old friend of mine and a beautiful songwriter, and we were sending each other you know, so he literally did he just sit there with the guitar and like he'd figure something out.

Then he sent it to me and then I play it, and then I change some of the lyrics and I'd send it back to him, but it's like each time, and then maybe we'd have like voice notes in between where he'd be like, I don't know about that? What did you mean by that lyric? Like what did you mean about that? Linking us back into the thing. And it was so funny being in his I don't know and then like playing around in that and then vice versa.

It was so beautiful because that it was an exchange of I don't know what this is, or I think it might be this, but I'm not attached to it, so you can change it. And we wrote like that, and there's something really cool about that because it doesn't have to be anything. And you're right, it does create itself. It's the statue inside the block of marble, the Michael and the idea. It reveals itself. You just sort of chip away. Yeah, I mean it sounds like also in

the exercise. What's so beautiful about that when you're writing with someone else is like, you can't afford to be too precious or egotistical about when your ideas are questioned. It's really actually just a question of wanting to understand. It's not like someone put it once, it was like, I try not to take criticism personal because it's not

me that they're criticizing. It's just an idea, which is like we don't do a good job, or at least I don't of separating myself from an idea because if someone doesn't like it, I'm like, then I can't produce anything else. It's I'm the problem. And it's like, that's not true. You're just the conduit for an idea and don't like let yourself become too like entangled with it.

But I think what's so beautiful about that exercises like you guys were allowing yourself to ask like I don't know what this means, and you could either be like, oh it means this, or you could return it with it. I don't know, but it's malluable. Yeah. Also practicing having that thrown at you like I don't like that and it's your idea and I have to go that that doesn't feel okay, and then you have to go through that process of going, well, so what if that were true?

So so now if I look at this song or this piece of rising from the point of view of this person that I love and value they don't like this thing, okay, so what is that and then like going and examining it and going, oh, maybe I was just attached to it because it was the only idea that I had, and I wanted to send him something back to show that I can do this, like at the same level as you, which is ridiculous because he's been writing songs and many more songs than I ever have.

It was interesting, like interrogating the ego of someone I respect doesn't like my idea, and then you couldn't take it personally because they weren't there. You just have to kind of figure it out and write another idea and then go, okay, well that also works and is maybe beautiful totally. I think it's cool writing in lots of different ways, and it also creates an opportunity for you

to respond in two different ways. Either you like are offended by it and you shut down and then no ideas come, or you allowed to be this like moment of faith where you're like, oh, I can do more, I can do better, and I will exactly and maybe it will be better. Or maybe it's also just like there's there are loads of ideas. It's cool you don't just have one idea. I always get very attached to that same where and when were you happiest? I loved this question because it was a little bit sad to me.

That took me so long to think about it. It's like, oh, yeah, am I not happy on a day to day basis? I don't know, but I think it's kind of a two part answer, if that's cool. During the pandemic, some of our best friends and I and my husband, we all drove up to Montana and there's just one moment where we drove up to Glacier and we we blew up all these inner tubes and we started at this stream head and just floated down the stream and there's this one section where the water was so blue and

so deep you couldn't see the bottom. And I remember just like instinctively grabbing onto a rock, throwing my inner tube, and then just diving as far as I could, And I like, I never do that. I rarely have a fear of water, but I just like I felt fearless and happy, and also like literally in that moment, no one could reach me, no one could ask me questions.

It just I felt completely liberated and I felt like just a person, and like all the other things that you sort of let make up who you are felt unimportant in that moment, just from being in nature and from shutting off my phone. Things as simple as that that made me feel truly happy. God, I so can imagine that. I mean, I'm sitting here in London and I dream of the water in all forms, particularly the ocean, all the time, and I just so saw that pool

of what I love a physical trigger of happiness. It's often other people that around the circumstances, like just in asking this question that trigger happiness, yeah, or moments from childhood. But I love that idea of nature triggering real, true happiness because I feel that is absolutely my happiest place in the world is out in the ocean, surfing, being able to see my son on the beach totally and

it's so innocent. It's like the moments where it just feels so uncomplicated for a second, they're like, Oh, all that matters right now is just like the way the water feels and catching this wave or whatever. You know. It's like, I don't sadly go to those moments often enough, or I don't make space for them because there's just so much you know day to day. My friend calls them techno realities, which are just these little things that you get lost in that sometimes cause you to forget

what's important and what you love about your life. It's so weird because I was just having this conversation with my boyfriend the other day. I was like, what is this charis in between the self awareness of things that will make our lives better and the actual doing of them. You know how that feels. I know how that feels, and yet actually going and seeking it out. It's almost like we slump into that techno reality, or we slump into it going wow, this is just life. This is

just what it is. I've got to sit in front of my computer for five hours and answer emails or do this thing. I think we've got to fight harder to carve out that other space because I know, we know that's where the creativity and the freedom comes from. Well, and the people that I think who display that the most are like in sort of business terms, are always deemed as like flaky or just like non responsive, but they're actually the most tapped in. And that's not the

case for every flakey person. Quote unquote. But those creatives that don't answer emails or don't it's like I know that they're somewhere creating, or they're on a walk, or they're doing the things that matter, and it's like who cares about the rest? I know emails matter, Like if I didn't answer my email, this wouldn't have happened today. So that's important to me, you know. But also it's just like I think you're right. Instinctively, we know where

to return to, but we don't. It's always like last resort or something. Yeah, I think again. It is just like insisting on drawing the lines of engagement with life, you know, of going okay, well it's going to be this for this amount of time. But I'm just talking from my I suppose from my own perspective, which is one gets lazy and then you don't realize that you've sort of been bludgeoned by all of the social contracts and all of the stuff. But it doesn't really take much.

That's what's great. Like I can just walk up to the park from where I live in London, and that's where my mother used to say, that's where the city breeds. And it's true, like you go there and these ancient trees and it's pretty wonderful, but you have to go do it right. You have to do it. No one is going to tell you that you need that break

except for yourself. Like I've I've learned that a lot where it's like, you know, if it weren't for me at times putting my foot down, I don't think anyone would tell me, hey, you should stop, or like you should take a break. Like it's like there's a machine that's running and no one really wants to shut it down. Yeah, yeah, it's true, particularly if you're generating income for them. I've also found that it's like, you know, it's like yeah, no, I'm you're right, I got to do that too. Yeah.

I mean it's also attached to morals to where I'm like, oh my god, all these people are relying on me. I wouldn't do anyone wrong that way. And then it's like there is a certain point of honesty that you reach where you're like, but the way that I feel now isn't helping anyone really, you know, like I have to have to succumb to something in your life. Can you tell me about something that has grown out of

a personal disaster. M This is another one of those questions that I thought about for a couple of days. I did my research, and I went and listened to this podcast beforehand, and that one got me because I thought, I'm twenty five at the moment, and there's the potential that some of my worst personal disasters are ahead of me. Oh you're so not wrong, which is like dark Now, it's great, It's really true. You can confirm you're coming at me from literally years older than you. Oh my god, No,

it's gonna be great. It's gonna be great because she's going to grow out of it. But unfortunately, this is the gift that keeps on giving, like you don't stop having personal disasters, like it's just you know, you start keeping a tally. It's a relief to me in a certain way, though, because the more that I've talked to people who are older than me or have just lived more life, the idea of like, oh it just kind of stays hard makes me feel like there's nothing more

that I should be doing to make it easier. It's like, oh, okay, good that this isn't on me. This is just life coming at me. But I would say the most recent thing that I can name it was the experience of making the album that just came out on September nine. It was so deeply difficult for me, I think because I just felt so disconnected from myself and from the process. I just was like paralyzed, I think from pressure. And again, so much of it, I think was I was responsible

for so much of the pressure. Was I was putting on myself unduly, you know, But from my label and from from management to it was just like, this has to be like really remarkable work. Otherwise who knows in this fragile place that the industry was in, And it's like the one time that I felt like everybody who was on the inside couldn't speak for how it would look or what it would be. All they could say was it just has to be amazing. And again that's

that's not me faulting anyone. It's just I was also making this, writing this in so it was already a disaster. Yeah, I think that was the scariest thing to me. I felt like I was like a little foodsball on a foods table that like anything that anyone said could have

like just shot me in the other direction. So I feel like my compass was gone so the whole time, to me, that felt like a disaster, and trying to make music from that place, I just I like rerecorded songs so many times because it just didn't feel right. I just felt like it was reaching all that to say as that was kind of happening. My grandma died, who I was really close to, and you know, grief tends to do that thing, which I learned because that was the first person who I was ever close to

that I lost. Grief as this thing that gives you this hyperclarity, even if it's just for a short time, where you're like, oh, literally, only these two things matter,

that's all I can give importance to. And for me, it was like family and love and loving people well, and that was it, and like music being out of the equation, there just was a relief for a minute because I was like, I've been putting so much pressure on this and on myself and it's turned into this thing that I'm so afraid to look at in the eye.

And what was so beautiful about that is there was a song that I wrote about her, It's called Life according to Rachel, that came out of that and it felt like that sort of purity of thought, love and

family sort of came through the music. And what was so cool about is like I released it thinking this is such a specific song about my grandmother and losing her, Like I think it's just going to be for me, and so many people have been able to attach their story in their life through that song, which has just

been like so overwhelming and mind blowing to me. And again, it's like one of those things that I think it was really just because there was like no ego around a song like that, There was no room to try and be impressive in the music. It was just like confessional. It talks about the guilt that you feel when you lose someone that you didn't do it enough or be

all those things that you deal with. So yeah, I think and obviously the record is finished and I'm proud of it, but that was one of those moments where I was like, how do I avoid going through that again in my life, even though I see such good that that came out of it. But you know, sometimes you come across these situations where you're like there is literally nowhere around this but through, and so you just kind of strap in and hope for the best. That's

so amazing, and I'm so glad that you. I'm not glad you lost your grandmother, But to experience the clarity and the clarifying nature of grief is it's an extraordinary privilege, and it is a really beautiful, strange moment in a person's life. And to be able to be creative, to be able to use that and harness that because that, really, to me is what that is, is harnessing that energy

and turning it into something else. But I'll tell you something that my dad said to me when I was heartbroken over this guy that I loved so much, and really, I mean, I'm actually must have been your age, and I thought that I was going to marry him and I loved him, and he just broken up with me.

And I stood up all night and I've been smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee, and I was sitting outside our house and my dad was going through this phase of I think I've told the story before, but I'm going

to tell that again because it's pertinent. And my dad went through this phase where he would go out jogging in the morning and it lasted for like three weeks, but it was during this time, he came out with his towel around his neck and he was sort of jogging and he had his toweling head band on and he was like he was like, oh, have you been up all night? And I was like, yeah, and I'm so unhappy. I'm so sad. You've been up all night just crying and smoking and drinking coffee. And he was like,

over a chap, is it? And I was like, yes, it's the love of my life. And my dad was like, do you want me to tell you something that you're not going to want to hear? And I was like, well, I mean not really, but and he was like, you're going to feel this way about someone else. So I will say to you, Madison, you were going to feel this way about other records. How however, you're also going to feel that it's easy and beautiful and simple and the way that maybe you love your husband you have

that relationship. It's all of it, and it will be all of it if we're lucky, hundreds of times over. But I understand the brutality of being in that moment where it's just so painful and the process has just been really, really difficult, And even though you're proud of the thing that comes out at the end it's Gnarlie, and then you know they'll be that experience again. I'm sure you're going to write so many more records and you're I'm sure have it for maybe other different reasons.

You know, you'll have kids running around and you won't be all of fucking focus and it'll be like, I'm losing my mind and I've got to finish this record. Yeah, totally. This goes back again to kind of what we said at the beginning. It's like, you know, noticing when it's hard and taking steps to kind of alleviate that, and sometimes you can't and you just have to go through

it being hard. Someone said to me during that time, and a similar thing that your dad said, but she kind of was like, you know, the beauty of the is she goes, it's just gonna get harder, and I was like, I don't see beauty in that, but she was saying, like the reality is and where you can find beauty also is that you're going to lose more people that you love. This is the beginning, but it's also the beginning of more clarity and love in your life,

and that can feel morbid, like a morbid idea. But grief is such a human thing. It's such a human idea, and it's it's things that we don't love to talk about, but I find it so important, whether that be you know, grieving the loss of a relationship or like actually loving losing someone. That all has a place, and it's sadly inevitable. Like I guess sometimes I'm like, there's no romantic way to really view this. It's just sad, that's it. Yeah,

but that's also okay. Yeah, it's also okay. Exactly. Sometimes it is it is just sad and it is just hard, and that's okay, and like we get through it, you get back to the glacier and the inner tube. Yes. So what quality do you like, at least about yourself? Oh? Man, probably how non confrontational I am. I I run from it at every corner, and I think there's this desire in me to be diplomatic and a peacemaker, and that's

a good quality. But the unhealth of it is when it's like avoiding things purely because they're hard and uncomfortable, not because they're bad, if that makes sense. It's like some confrontation is necessary and good, and I hate to see the way that like my non confrontational side will possibly hurt somebody. So I work. I work on that, I try to. I'm not good with the hard confrontations.

There's also this deep fear in myself that I have that I don't know how to articulate something well, especially when nervous. It's weird. I mean, I'm a I'm a songwriter. I deal with lyrics, love lyrics, but I have time to sort through that. But when I'm face to face with someone and there's conflict or something, and I always feel this immense pressure that I don't have what it takes to actually like solve it at the moment. I

don't know where that comes from. I don't know if like there's something in my childhood or I know my dad is very non confrontational. Not to blame him for my own qualities, but you know it's like sometimes you inherit those those traits from your parents. Yeah you do. It's what's it cool? It's called epigenetics. Is I want the emotional stuff that you inherit. I didn't know that name. That's helpful. Yeah, yeah, blame dad, I said one time to a friend. I was like, how long can I

blame my parents for things? And they're like, I don't know, maybe maybe don't blame them for things. Just maybe take responsibility for as much as you can. And then it's like a really delicate balance. I know it is. I'm always asking my son. I'm like, is this damaging you? Is the stamaging you? How about this is the sdamaging you? What about this? Wait? Hold on, let me just stop crying. Is the damaging you? The poor kid? But honestly, I've just like, listen, I will be able to recommend you

a good therapist. I think our parents do. They gave us all these things that are wonderful and all these things that are terrible, because that's also the gift. I guess, yeah, right, I guess so. I mean the gift of being able to question yourself and everything. You know, I love that gift. But like that must be hard as a parent, and turned to tow then like to go, I know There's gonna be a point in time where I'm going to hurt you. Is that now? Like? Have I done it yet?

You know? That must be like you're holding your breath exactly, And unfortunately it's unavoidable, like you are going to do that. And again, it does seem to come around to self awareness that, like as with anything, the minute, won't can identify that you've done something that is difficult for another person to metabolize calling it out and saying I, oh, I did this and I'm really sorry, or I did this and this because of this or whatever it is.

I do think that kind of mitigation helps. Interesting that you're a songwriter and that you I mean, I think that's really I think it's really cool. I wonder if that's just like, in addition to the sort of being rarely creative, it's also where of being able to work through that and deal with it and go, no, you know, I'm gonna I can write about it, and I can articulate it. I can articulate it actually really really well

and put it to music. Right. Well, yeah, I guess, I guess those fears are always at the beginning of writing songs too. Yeah. I always have this hesitation or this worry that I'm going to forget how to do it or not going to be able to do it in a way that will mean anything to anyone, or that anyone can understand, you know, because I think I love ambiguity. It's I find it very sexy, and I love people who are very mysterious. And there's the part of me that just wants that to be what my

music is. And then there's another half of me that's like, but I really want to be understood. Yeah, Like I want people to know where I'm coming from and to get the picture of me so they can hear me when I speak. You know, it's a funny balance. That's so funny. I always really wanted to be mysterious, but like, nah, that ship sailed. I think that's a whole other lifetime. But I know, I know exactly what you mean about. I think it's really good to be able to articulate stuff.

I think that's also speaks to the creative process with everything anyone who's creative, Like the minute you when you're beginning something, we just have absolutely no idea how you're going to do it again, Like how are you going to do this? How is it going to happen? How is this song going to be written, this book going to be written, this play, movie, TV show be made? Like it's mysterious, that is mysterious. Yeah, one. The actual

art of songwriting will forever be mysterious. It's like it's unattainable. If we all knew where it began and where it ended, we would just stay in those places, but we don't exactly. It's constantly moving. So what relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you? I feel like the people in my life who have defined love for me are the ones who have loved me through every phase of my life. Um, and he liked me even And I would say, my sister,

I'm the oldest of five girls. Yeah, I know, it's it's sometimes I don't realize how crazy that is until I see a picture of all five of us together and I'm like, this is a lot of kids. But my younger sister and I we've always been inseparable since I saw her when I was two years old and she was just born, like we always have had a bond. And she's just one of those people where it's like I always kind of test her and bring things that I think this is too ugly for anyone to hear.

I'm just gonna tell you. And she never bats and I she's always just like, oh yeah, I have those same thoughts, and I feel like she has shown me love in ways that so many of my friendships and people that I've leaned on have failed to. And maybe it's a blood related thing, but I don't know. She's just kind of one of those people for me that I lean on and know that I'll be seen I kind of no matter what. My husband is also that

person for me. He this is such a rare thing and not everybody's story, but I've known him since I was thirteen. We met then, and you know, it was never romantic. We were always just really really good friends, and he was always one of those people for me that I thought, it doesn't get better than Austin as far as character goes. He's the coolest person I know, or the best person I know. I don't know if I thought he was the coolest at the time that

became apparent later. He just was kind of one of those people that was just sort of a lynch pin in my life, someone who just saw me from age thirteen to now, which is a long span of time and how many turns a person can sort of take. We ended up dating when he was a junior in college. I was a couple of years younger than him. I didn't go to college, but I moved to l A and decided to pursue music, and the endeavor of that

was so much more intense than I expected. And it's definitely tested me in so many ways as a person, for better and for worse. And I think he's kind of been there and seeing all of it, but still has like just been there to kind of scoop me up, to hold me kind of at the end of the day, and has never like his love hasn't wavered in the midst of all of that. So do you think that being seen because you said that about your sister and this and about your husband, Like, is that really important?

I mean, obviously it's really important. That's not what I meant, I actually meant. Do you think that that is sort of extends into the part of the crux of why you do what you do? Is that notion of reflection and visibility? Maybe in a subconscious way it is, like it's funny. As a songwriter, I've always said like, I don't know if I have anything to say, and then sometimes that will change where you're like, oh I do, Actually there's a song here, there's a statement that I

want to make. But I go in and out of phases and feeling like I want to be seen in that way, in a public way, and times where I really really want to hide. And that probably fluctuates with the level of hardship that comes with it. You know. It's like the more responsibility you have, the more you crave the denial of it. That's at least been my experience. But I think just in my in my personal life, yeah,

being seen is the most important thing to me. Even if that means someone is seeing the worst parts of me, I want them in on that. I want them to know that that's really cool. I like that. Madison, thank you so much. It's been so great. I really appreciate your time and all your thoughts. Thank you so much. Thank you many. This was just the honor of lifetime. So thanks for having me. You're very, very welcome. You can find Madison's album Revealer out now wherever you get

your chance, and give the song life. According to Rachel, the song she told us about today, the one about her grandmother. An extra spin Many Questions is hosted and written by me Mini Driver supervising producer Aaron Kauffman, Producer Morgan Levoy, Research Assistant Marissa Brown. Original music Sorry Baby by a Mini Driver, Additional music by Aaron Kaufman. Executive

produced by Me Mini Driver. Special thanks to Jim Nikolay, Will Pearson, Addison No Day, Lisa Castella and Nick Oppenheim at w kPr, de La Pescador, Kate Driver and Jason Weinberg, and for constantly solicited tech support Henry Driver,