Hi, how are you? This is Dr. Damaris, Maria Grossman and this is the mindfully integrative Show. Today, we have an amazing guest for our mindful chat, Rob crate check. And I might have said it wrong, but he's an IT specialist and also it integrating with mindfulness. And I know he has a lot more to discuss with you about that. He was just kind of touching base with me about it prior to us going on air. And I can't wait for you guys to meet him and kind of learn more about
his story. So thanks so much for having the time and taking the time for us.
Oh, thank you to Maris really appreciate the opportunity and grateful to be here
today. Awesome. So you know, kind of tell a little bit, as I say to people, a little fun fact something that people don't know about you.
Something people don't know about me. In my first, in my first job out of college, one of the first I had a six month review, and one of the first things that they brought up in my six month review was that they didn't like that I was drinking milk out of a half jug half gallon jug. So I kind of thought that that was funny that I just thought well, I couldn't you brought it up sooner. I don't know.
That's kind of weird. That just kind of randomly happened that they just said, Hey, yeah, we wanted you to find a cup.
Yes. Yeah. And I understand now I you know, there was clients that could come into the office occasionally. So I get it, but it just, you know, just that it cut. Uh, it wasn't something that young Rob was thinking about or mindful of?
Oh, yeah. I mean, at that time, you're probably like, Oh, this is just more convenient.
Right? It's more efficient. Like now I don't get a cup dirty. I don't have to go to the kitchen, you know.
But now you're like, okay, yeah, I probably could have gotten cut. Yeah. That's cool. So um, so tell us a little bit about kind of where you are in this. I call it an integrative health space. But where are you? I guess you're intertwining it and mindfulness. So obviously, the
technology in that area. And just what brought you to this, because you were saying to me a little bit about a four day workweek, which, you know, I think most people should be in a four day workweek, if not less, you know?
Yeah. I mean, there's, there's so much background to it. But basically, the way I would describe myself is I'm a technology mindfulness expert, that helps the guides companies to a four day workweek. And the way I define technology, mindfulness is allowing humans to use technology in a way that serves us instead of us being enslaved to it. And so what I think is pretty unique about my approach, and kind of the way I'm looking at things is, I've combined studies in five different areas.
So it's the combination of technology, biology, sociology, neurology, and psychology all combined together. And what I'm trying to do and our mission here at humans first, that's named my company humans first, our mission is to help humanity understand how technology is impacting mental health, relationships and productivity
at work. And so I am very confident that if the 4.2 billion people that are connected to the internet today knew what I know about how technology is affecting those three areas of our life, the entire world would be a totally different place. And that's why I'm really excited to share this information with people and help bring some awareness or help them bring awareness, I guess, for themselves of some of the ways that, you know, they might be using technology that doesn't
serve them well. And then they can decide what they want to do about it.
Are you on the camp of against technology? Or is it just a matter of learning how to use it in your with work? You're Is it both?
Yeah, so the way I describe it is, I'm not anti technology, I'm pro humanity. And I say that because I'm a nerd at heart. I was one of those kids. In middle school, I built my first desktop computer, my friends, and I would compare you to it. Great. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and so and like, my friends, and I would talk about our computer specifications at the lunch table in high school, you know, so like, that was the kind of nerd I was right. And so
I love I love technology. But you know, what has happened over the last 40 years is we went from a time where in the 80s, let's say when, you know, most technology was personal technology, let's say was, was first introduced, then all technology was good. And it basically all did great things for humanity. And it really helped us. But we've now eclipsed the point where all technology is good. It's not all good anymore. And, again, it's not that the vast majority is
good. But there's certain things that we're doing and certain ways that we're using it that aren't serving us. And so I just want to, you know, help people, you know, be aware of those things. Because I do think it is, you know, the average person in America. This is a this is a crazy statistic, the average person in America is in front of screens in media, 12 hours and 21 minutes per day. In other words, we're spending three quarters of our waking life in
front of screens in media. And that statistic, by the way, was from before COVID So you can't say, oh, I COVID I do believe it. Yeah, and so, so humans aren't first in our world anymore. Technology is first based on how we're spending our time. And so that's why the name of my company is humans. First, it's a reminder to people that we are here on this planet to connect with the hearts and souls of other people, that gives us the most meaning the most happiness, the most joy.
And it really is, you know, the best moments of our life are made up of us spending time with other humans. And I really hope that we can get, you know, get back to doing more of those kinds of things with each other.
I think it I think it's so necessary because the connection is there, you know, it's needed. I, I think like you said, there could be a positive with the technology if it's, you know, done well, but if you're sitting and you know, your body doesn't isn't connecting and doing things, you know, there must be you know, you're doing yourself a
disservice. What kind of got you into this strange, you know, I wouldn't call it strange but what changed or that was like this perfectly, you know, thing that was like a turning point for you. Yeah, I'm doing this. Yeah, maybe
I can, I can describe my briefly describe my career because it kind of builds up to transfer. So I used to be a sell side equity analyst and I analyze healthcare stocks for a living so I researched medical device and pharmaceutical
companies. And so I, that helped me understand the business world, the stock market, how to ask good questions to CEOs and CFOs, things like that, making financial models all those things, but I didn't and I really liked the firm I was working at, but I just didn't feel like I was helping people enough. And so I left that. So while I was doing that, that 60 hour week day job I opened up my first business which was an Anytime Fitness health club. It
was a franchise. And so once that how do you find fitness? That's yeah, yeah, yeah, I was a franchisee, and I was a franchisee and the franchisor Yeah, but still, there's still a lot. Yeah, it was it was until I ended up. You know, once that business was profitable enough, I quit my day job. I traveled around the world to Central America, South America and Europe for a little bit. Then I came back to the States, I ended up buying two more of those Anytime Fitness health clubs.
And then once I saw that, that business was kind of past its prime, I sold those and invested in for you break I fix cell phone repair stores. So I kind of joke. Yeah, there as well. And I guess I kind of joke that I have career add, right. So my, if you look at my career, it's finance, lash business, and then health and fitness, and then technology. But the thing that I really think is cool as humans first is a Collette kind of a collaboration of all three of
those things. I'm helping people with technology, mindfulness, and applying it to business and their personal life, really. And so. Um, so you know, that's, again, like my, I think that's why my perspective is kind of unique, because I have this very diverse set of background experiences, and you know, business ownership, but understanding the, you know, the health and fitness side on the psychology side, and, you know, that kind of led me to where I am today.
Wow, that sounds like a lot in a nutshell there. Yeah. Wow. So I, I really want you to kind of dive more into this conversation of it and mindfulness. So you know, what it's, tell me a little bit more, you know, I want you to kind of go into that for me.
Yeah. So and, you know, like I was saying earlier, I've combined studying five different areas. And over the last four years, I've read over 100 books and 2000 articles and studies to truly understand this problem. And I'm still think I have a lot a long way to go. But if I had to summarize the you know, all that research in a couple of sentences, it would be
this. I believe that technology is simultaneously increasing the day to day and sometimes minute to minute stress that we experience, which also puts us in a negative emotional state, while at the same time, degrading our ability to deal with that stress, because it is degrading our social support systems, relationships and communities. It's degrading the
bonds between humans. And so we have this equation where both sides of the equation are actually going in the wrong direction, more stress, less connection or less ability to deal with it. And I think this is the root cause of much of the mental health crisis we have today. It's because we're using something for three quarters of the waking hours of our day, that is causing stress. And then we don't we're not recharging ourselves anymore by being with people and socializing and having a Karen
go nature connecting outside doing things
that were meant to do, right, like humans weren't meant, you know, in the long term for humanity, if if humans do something over the long term, it has to serve us in one of two ways either has to help us survive, or it has to help us reproduce. Otherwise, over the long term, it would not you know, we humans would not do that thing. And technology doesn't inherently do either of those things. It can help us with those somewhat but it doesn't any It doesn't inherently help us survive or
reproduce. And so I just don't see the amount of technology and how we're using it to be a long term sustainable, you know, situation for humanity?
Do you find it? Well, obviously a loss of connection? Do you think that there is a medium? Or is it gone past the medium? Of there's no chance chance of turning back?
Oh, no, I definitely so. And I wouldn't, you know, certain technologies, for instance, and I do like to pick on social media a little bit, because it's the most addictive technology by far. And it's also used the most per day.
But I as an example, I think, in a social media as the cigarette of the 21st century, I think, in 10 years from now, we're going to be saying, What the hell are we thinking giving 12 year olds, this insanely addictive technology, that's, you know, super convenient, and in their pocket all the time, and then, you know, expecting them to use it responsibly when their brain isn't fully developed, and they don't have good decision making ability or good, you know,
executive function. And so, you know, so I think, you know, in 10 years, and I think that the tide has actually turned for social media, I think the movie, the social dilemma came out in late 2019. And that, to me was a tipping point, that was the first time that humanity actually, like a significant number of people realize, oh, shit, this might not be good for us. And now I see more. And so you know, that thought has taken a little while for people to understand. But it's it's now
permeating our population. And I think it's, you know, people are getting it now. But it's still not as mainstream as I would hope it would be that
I could see that because I can see like, Well, I mean, I put technology or in this conversation, technology is a consumption of anything, right? So whether it's you're consuming excess sugar, you're consuming excess technology. When you overdo anything. I feel like your body doesn't need it. Right. So it's like here, but the problem is, it's so addicting. So it's an addiction. Right. And, and I can I could not agree more. I mean, I think in some way all of us are addicted to it because of
it. It's the feelings that you get, it has that same response. I mean, you probably have read the deck not that I've definitely read this research on that and the properties
of it. It's it's incredible. So not so what what the research shows is that at least specifically with social media, the same circuitry in your brain that is lit up when you take illegal drugs like cocaine when you when you use social media. And so think about this, would we give a 12 year old a bag of cocaine that was unlimited and say, Hey, I just want you to use this, take a little bit of cocaine and use it responsibly. And I'm gonna keep on giving you an unlimited
amount. But don't get addicted to it like we ever do that, that would be totally insane. But that's exactly what we're doing with a digital device. When we give them a cell phone with social media on it. It's exactly the same.
Unfortunately, wish it was because I've been having like now that I'm growing up a little ones, and I am in that fear of what too much what's too little. And then I'm like, I don't even know if I want to do a phone later on. You know, I hear you, I can totally understand where you're coming from. Where so we're now at this point, you're working a lot with companies, right? Because you're saying the technology, the mindfulness, and then transitioning that into a four
day workweek. I love that idea. How did that come out for you? I mean, I think it's the best makes sense to me. But you know,
yeah. So yeah, I work with not only coal companies, but also teams and individuals. And, you know, with regardless of what type of group I'm working with, it's basically the same material, because what I'm essentially doing is helping people understand how, especially from a productivity standpoint, they're using technology that that again, isn't serving them well or is damaging their focus or their ability to get their job done.
And so my goal when I work with a company is to help each person at that company, do their job better, and be less stressed and less burned out so that they can do their job better, have more time for themselves and go home one day a week. And it's also for the executives, not just the employees, every person at the company could have a full day
off. I could explain a little bit about kind of what I see in terms of how you know how people are working, that might not be helpful if that it would be useful for the listeners?
Sure. I mean, do you find that it's just that people are squirrel like so for a regular workday? Is it technology in the sense of scrolling on social media? Or is it technology in the sense of not knowing how to use all of these new parts that are included in the work?
Yeah, so the way I would say it is, it's it's, we are distracting ourselves every day almost. Well, it's a for a lot of People were doing it so much that we don't even realize it. And it's ridiculously damaging to how much we can accomplish. And as an example, I thought I was super productive or like I, you know, I'm not sure if you've heard of that book Four Hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss. Yeah. I mean, everyone's heard of that. I love that book. And that was like my
Bible for a long time. And so I read that book, and I did all these productivity hacks. And I was like, I thought to myself, I'm super productive. But about four years ago, when I started researching this, I said to myself, ah, you know, I would get to the end of the day, and I would say, I feel like I did a lot like, I feel like I was in my email inbox and doing a bunch
of things. But if I had to write down a list of what I actually accomplished today, it really wouldn't be that long, it really wasn't that much good, high quality work. And so I said, Well, I don't get it, I thought I was productive. But I'm not really getting a lot done, what's going on here. And so what then what I did over the last four years is I ran hundreds, hundreds and hundreds of experiments on myself to do different things and see what was effective in terms of using
my technology. And an interesting thing that your listeners will probably appreciate is that I also have ADHD. So I am much more apt to be distracted than the average person. So the thing is, I have, you know, now, amassed a set of techniques that, even for someone like me with ADHD are ridiculously effective in helping me, you know, guide me to be productive. And that's what I want to share with people. And I've found that, you know, using these techniques, you can get exponentially more
done in a day. It's not even like linear. It's like, if you do these things, I've been getting like five to 10x, more done than I used to in a full day.
Did you read a book? Do you need one? Well, what's
interesting is helping some, you know, helping people with these techniques. I had one client, for instance, she took this survey is just 15 minutes, that, you know, that I give my new clients. And then I worked with her for two hours. And during that two hours, I suggested a bunch of ways that she could change her technology use. And so after two hours of working with me, we checked her phone screen time a couple of weeks later, and she saved over 40 hours of time per week on her
phone. She saved an entire work week of time, every week.
Wow. So like, amazing. How is that?
It's incredible. Yeah, it's like, so that is what's possible. If if you're open minded, and are open to doing things a little differently.
Wow. Yeah, I mean, it. It's not only that we're obsessed with it, or people use it differently. I mean, I think that challenge, too. I know for someone on in business, now that you have to use it right, you have to have some sort of connection to it to build a business or build some sort of, but then I also find myself trying to disconnect from it too. Because I mean, World of integrative health, you're trying to disconnect from some of that. But you know, you go back and forth of what's the
right time. But yeah, that guess it is a mindfulness and it is an awareness of what's and I said I'm surprised I I even tried to put like, a lot of do not disturb some my after certain times or before the day begins before I start my day. So I have like a don't turn on don't turn off and like blue light screens. And just that alone, I found that was helpful. Right. But I I bet I could I bet you for just me alone, I'm probably even have
a lot. And I probably use less technology than some but I use a lot for my business. I have to
totally Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying that people shouldn't use technology, because it does so many good things for us. But you know, it's also, you know, doing things that, you know, like I give the example of this, what a lot of people will do is for instance, this is such a simple example. But there's millions of people around the world doing this every day. Let's say you have your email on your phone, and you check your email right
before you go to bed. So what and then let's pretend you get an email from your boss that says a bunch of stuff. And then you get stressed out about it, or it amps up your sympathetic nervous system, right? This fight or flight system that you know is helps you identify threats and keeps you alive. Well, now you've activated the
system. And not only are you stressed out by the email, but unless you're gonna go to your computer and act on all that information, which nobody is right, you're just you're trying to get to bed. Now it actually feels even more helpless for you. Because you know this information, it's that you perceive it as a threat, but then you can't act on it. And so you feel like you're out of control. And there and that even adds more to the feeling of
threat. And so if you do this right before you go to bed, this, you know, not only reduces your ability to get to bed right away, but also probably dramatically impacts the sleep quality that you have. And so just doing that one simple, seemingly simple thing. checking your email right before bed can totally crush your next day because it crushes your night of sleep. And so like no one is thinking about these things,
right? They're just like, Oh yeah, I'm just going to scroll my email and check get read before bed. And it really doesn't serve us well to do that.
I wouldn't recommend it. I mean, but I think I think it's that awareness. You know, I'm pretty big about trying to not have it at least a half hour before bed for myself. But that took time to change. Because like you said, a habit, you know, there are there. I would love for those to kind of connect with you again. But would you like to leave the audience a little bit mindful tip, as I say, for mindful way for them today before?
Yeah, of course, to Maris. One of the things that I just want people to be aware of is, for every hour that you use your smartphone, you could cut that time in half if you were doing the same thing on a computer. And so what we don't realize is using a smartphone is way, way, way less productive than a computer be cut for two main reasons. The first one is when you're inputting information when you're typing, you know, for almost everyone typing with your fingers is way slower than typing on a
keyboard, not surprisingly. But then the other reason is, you're even if you have a huge phone, like a seven inch screen, that's still way way smaller than a laptop, screen, or for sure a desktop monitor. And so that extra monitor size allows you to see more things multitask, do
other stuff. And And so basically, if you're using your phone and running your business from your phone, or you're, you know, doing a lot of things from your phone, if you can just be mindful of not, you know, setting aside some time where you're instead you can go to your desktop and do those exact same things. It literally cuts the amount of time you're spending in half
an hour. Wow. That's good to know. I think you don't even think about that. You think, oh, I can get it done on my phone?
No. And so the way I kind of describe it is that it you know, people have to decide, right? The trade off that you're making, when you're using your phone is you're trading off convenience for productivity. So when you use your phone, you're essentially saying, I really care about convenience. And I want to make and I'm you know, using my phone to be convenient, but it's at the cost of productivity. It's at the cost of taking twice as long.
Interesting. So yeah, so it's in a one way it's it's pulling one one side or the other. Yeah, it makes sense. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I can imagine how much people are doing that.
There's billions and billions of dollars of productivity loss every day from from doing that kind of stuff.
Oh my gosh, how can how can those, like reach you? Because I love that your name humans first because I feel one that could be in so many aspects. I mean, I know you're just talking, we're just talking with the technology. But I feel that connection in itself is missing. You probably have many avenues in your business, because I feel like we don't talk enough. I mean, you know, here I am talking you through
technology, right? And that at least is a connection, but the connection of like face to face, that doesn't happen as much as it used to.
No, it doesn't. And my my vision for humans first isn't that it's just a company, that it's a social movement that people will, you know, get behind this and say to themselves, like, yeah, I want to be a connector, I want to connect and talk to other people in person and, you know, be with people because that brings me joy, I do agree that we've kind of lost our way as a, you know,
as a society. And if people want to, you know, want to learn more information, they can go to my website, which is humans first.us. Another thing that I'd like to offer your listeners is a free 30 minute consultation with me. And so all they would need to do to redeem that is just email me and my email address is rob our OB at humans
first.us. And what they can do is saying, yeah, and then just just say that just mentioned this podcast and your subject line, and that you want the 30 minute call, and then we'll set something up. And I'd love to connect with the listeners and help them with their technology, mindfulness.
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for you know, coming on and taking your time. I know your time is very precious. And it's really great. So thanks again. And I appreciate you being on the show.
Yeah, thank you so much, Tamara. It's really grateful to be here. Thank you.
And thank you guys for tuning in and taking your time. So thanks again for chatting with us and being part of the mindfully integrative show and as I say each one of you find a mindful way each and every day. Thanks