39. CA Conrad: Poetry, Ritual, and Creativity

CA Conrad "Poetry, Ritual, & Creativity" [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host David Devine. And it's a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions -- Naropa is the birthplace of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] [00:00:44.21] DAVID DEVINE: Hello, today I'd like to welcome a very special guest to the podcast and the Naropa community. CA Conrad. Conrad is a writer, a poet, an author and a teacher. And they are here at Naropa teaching in the Jack Kerouac School for the Summer Writing Program. So welcome to the podcast. [00:01:03.04] CA CONRAD: Thank you so much for having me. [00:01:04.22] DAVID DEVINE: Yeah, no problem. So, I heard that you wanted to start with a poem? And I love that idea so -- [00:01:12.02] CA CONRAD: I'm going to read from this new collection. And maybe I could talk a little bit about where the poems come from. [00:01:18.23] DAVID DEVINE: Yeah, please. [00:01:20.15] CA CONRAD: So, the first poem is called, "Camisado". "Camisado" is a military term that means killing your enemies in their sleep and I was introduced to this word in junior high school history when the teacher was talking about the -- most famous American camisado which is when George Washington crossed the Delaware with his soldiers to kill British soldiers in their sleep. The reason I remember this is because he used the word brave. He said it was a very brave decision and I thought that was an odd choice as a young child. Even I was like - I don't think that's brave to kill these young British soldiers while they are dreaming of you know the Cliffs of Dover and eating fish and chips or whatever they're dreaming. I mean it�s terrible - strategic, but not brave. "Camisado" after breaking in the wolf calmed the hens so he could take his time with them twists them open until the right amount of memory fits into the song another high price for belonging poetry is the opposite of escape but makes this world endurable how the smallest puddle reflects the entire sky a return to every dream our minds talked us out of trusting our math of the star your hand around my shoulder poet astronaut you know I love you I have no sense of failure when I am with you everything matters because everything hurts someone somewhere as it is mattering we became all we carried into the mast migratory patterns given to the love again a way to end this secrecy of suffering cut a door in the wolf so we can retrieve our dead for a world that matters [00:03:12.23] CA CONRAD: So, here's the second poem. [00:03:14.18] DAVID DEVINE: Ok, what's this one called? [00:03:15.21] CA CONRAD: "On All Fours I Am a Seat for the Wind" Most of my family's international travel is being sent to the war If we judge love we can kill of anything Dragged by our hair across the days until they make their way inside our dreams where we get to evict them I want to thank the one who invented knocking on the door but no one remembers their name to tattoo across my knuckles I asked an archaeologist about first time she stuck a shovel in the ground her answer had some restorative powers as the grave diggers when we die we can no longer wipe the muck off Just lie there becoming shit of the world Eat a chip of your own dried blood Join me in the cannibal sunshine fully persuaded by the world through song Each morning a blue jay screams at the edge of the clear cut forest I scream with her at the bleeding stumps Scream inside something borrowed like ocean, like skin I want to see before I die a mink wearing a human scarf Skin from a handsome harry leg Meow [00:04:34.12] CA CONRAD: So, actually the part about the blue jay screaming -- that's real. Those poems are from a very large ritual that I am doing across the United States with extinct animals. So, I am in my 50s. And in my lifetime, the planet has seen a 60% loss of all the wildlife. 60 percent loss. And, we've recently found out that we've lost 50% in my lifetime of the coral reefs. Europe has lost -- this is from a recent article in "The Guardian" from London -- Europe lost 75% of its flying insects. And it�s an avalanche of species that are going along with it now. So, what I was trying to do is think about eco-poetics as not just a focus on degraded soil, air and water, but vibrational absence. When a species leaves the planet, they take everything with them. Their heart beat, their flutter, their foot falls, their hooves. [00:05:31.06] DAVID DEVINE: The metaphysical properties of the insects and not just like the material properties. [00:05:36.04] CA CONRAD: Right. [00:05:36.19] DAVID DEVINE: I like that. [00:05:37.21] CA CONRAD: But, anyway I've been saturating my body with their sounds wherever I go and there are a bunch of other ingredients to this ritual. I am including writing index cards with messages for strangers and a little drawing of the creature and leave them in shopping malls and bibles in hotel rooms all over the place. And people start writing back. [00:05:58.23] DAVID DEVINE: Oh nice. [00:05:58.23] CA CONRAD: And then I write back and say you know I am the dusky sea sparrow, and these are the insects I used to eat and then I -- here is a SoundCloud recording that this nice ornithologist made. And then eventually I say oh in 1988 my entire family, my friends, my neighbors we were all destroyed and wiped off the face of the planet. We don't exist anymore. Thanks a lot. Then it becomes antagonistic. But we really are living in - I don't want to get into all of that. I am trying to focus now on the ritual and this is the ritual that I am working on right now. [00:06:30.08] DAVID DEVINE: Would you say the ritual is you going on tour and kind of writing these notecards for people and having them reach out to you in such a ways that you are responding to them as the insect itself or does the ritual go a little bit deeper than that? [00:06:44.18] CA CONRAD: Well, I write - I have index cards. And I write on the index cards a message with a drawing and an email and I leave them in shopping centers, laundry mats - randomly -- subways and people start writing back. Does that make sense? [00:07:00.12] DAVID DEVINE: Yeah. Totally. [00:07:02.02] CA CONRAD: And then there is an activist element where I am trying to get legislators to put money aside for land bridges that we have only just a couple -- and it�s a literal graveyard across this country. Millions of animals every single day are trying to cross these highways and they cannot. And we've cut off migratory patterns of all kinds. The thing that we need to think about is what will happen if Trump gets that law made? What about all those creatures that have to go back and forth? The birds can do it, of course, but -- yeah, so anyway, I've been here all week at Naropa teaching rituals. Not this one, but we were building our own. [00:07:41.09] DAVID DEVINE: Would you say a lot of your poetry revolves around ritual? Revolves around a deep intention and it�s not necessarily just like your mind is thinking of something -- you write it down. You're thinking like you're experiencing a lot of things from the world and then you integrate ritual and then write or -- ? [00:07:55.10] CA CONRAD: No, I started doing these rituals because I grew up in a factory town. All my family are factory workers. And, I didn't want anything to do with the factory. Its detrimental to the human experience in every possible way imaginable. It just turns people into drug addicts and alcoholics. At least that's my experience. And it just runs their bodies, their spirits -- everything. They become broken. But I thought that had escaped the factory back in the 80s when I ran away to be a writer. To be poet, not a writer. I got to make that clear. And, what I found out in 2005 -- decades later that that factory was in me. And it was visible on my desk and it was a crisis and I stopped writing. And eventually, I woke up you know a better part of a month went by with me deliberately not writing. And I started making a list of problems with the factory and one of the - - this is very Naropa I would think. One of the lines was the inability to be present. And, I feel like we're living in this time period where everybody is talking about being present and I feel like a lot of people are talking about it in a way almost like a weapon. You know like oh I am present. You know but you are not. What people don't understand is that some people don't have the ability and especially if you're the majority of your waking hours are spent being an extension of the machine in a factory you're either going to be depressed about the past or anxious about the future. You're not going to want to be present and then when you leave work you don't know how to shut it off after years. [00:09:34.09] So, its -- we're living in a culture designed to prevent us from being present. So that's where these rituals come from. I immediately started making rituals to create a place of extreme present. That's the purpose of what I do. And, when I am doing these rituals -- translate into all art forms. I teach regularly in Amsterdam at the Sandberg Art Institute every October. I have the incoming body of students -- the grad students and I sit down with them as a group and we create rituals so that they can see later in life -- when they have many more routines after school. When they are busy with families and careers and the art work starts to slip away. That they can find space wherever they are at no matter what they are doing. [00:10:24.02] DAVID DEVINE: I really like that idea about creating rituals and creating something that will bring you into the present moment for something that like is sustainable to your soul and your heart and who you are and who you are becoming. I really enjoy that. So, you're talking about being present and being aware while writing -- how do bring presentness in writing? Like, is there anything that you do personally or -- ?? [00:10:50.04] CA CONRAD: Look, the only thing that matters is the writing. So, the -- and I mean I am talking about the act of writing. I don't mean the finished product. So -- [00:10:59.03] DAVID DEVINE: Like the physical act of writing? [00:11:01.03] CA CONRAD: Like I was saying my rituals create a space of extreme present. Meaning when I am doing them I can't think about anything except what I am doing or where I am at. It�s not this type of old kind of writing that I used to do that everybody does where you become inspired and then you write. And, sometimes you get nostalgic - I don't want any of that. I feel like it�s not something I am interested in my writing. I have -- no time for that. Nostalgia is pointless frankly. I mean it�s useful for people who are having a very hard time I suppose, but I think to live in nostalgia, which I think many people do -- just creates a terrible space politically, socially, creatively -- because nostalgia isn't present. [00:11:53.03] DAVID DEVINE: Yeah. [00:11:53.16] CA CONRAD: So, anyway I have hundreds of these rituals that I have been doing. My books are all the rituals and then the resulting poems. So, this new book is called, "While Standing in Line for Death." The opening ritual - I believe that these rituals could do more than just produce poems. I had a boyfriend who was brutally tortured, raped, covered in gasoline and set on fire in Tennessee. The documentary about my life called, "The Book of Conrad," -- the filmmakers went back down to Tennessee with me to try to figure this murder out. The police covered it up. The police to this day are covering up -- of course, it�s just impossible to have your ankles and wrists tied together behind you hog tied and gagged with your pants and underwear down to your ankles covered in gasoline and burned alive and there is no empty gasoline containers on site. And this is in a remote cave in Tennessee. It�s not near a gas station. You know so it�s just ridiculous. A 4 year old literally could tell you this is a homicide. [00:12:52.06] But that's a whole other part of the story. The ritual isn't about that. The ritual is about dealing with the suffering that I was going through. Especially dealing with the police who were brutal. They brutalized me physically eventually and emotionally. Continuously. I was very athletic before his murder and then I gained a lot of weight. It�s funny it�s like I've became vegetarian instead of vegan and I would eat like terrible food, but I did a ritual to overcome the depression and it worked. And it made me -- I was macrobiotic actually right up to the point with his murder. Because he and I we were in Act Up. And, Queer Nation in the 80s and 90s and we had scores of friends die. And, we were kind of burnt out at this point. And we were taking it easy and starting to really enjoy our lives again and then he's murdered brutally. [00:13:46.19] When I actually believed that I was getting my life together - it actually was the worst part was about to come and I didn't know it. But the poetry is what dragged me back to the light. [00:13:59.09] DAVID DEVINE: I am so sorry to hear about all of that. [00:14:02.01] CA CONRAD: It happens every day in America. And we're faced right now with hundreds of anti-LGBTQ laws for this November. I am not an optimist, but I think November is going to be fantastic. We have a record number of -- I think it�s like 300 lesbian, transgender people running for Congress. Many, many women. People of color. We're going to get a hold of the steering wheel I think this year. [00:14:28.17] DAVID DEVINE: I am on board with that. I am like ready for this -- [00:14:30.17] CA CONRAD: I am not an optimist, but I think it is going to happen. [00:14:33.07] DAVID DEVINE: Yeah, you are not the only one on the podcast that has said the shift is happening. And I totally agree with you and we are part of that. [00:14:41.09] CA CONRAD: But it also has political action rituals. Dealing with these anti - because you know I would always be the oldest person at these protests. And there'd be these young 18, 19, 20 year old protesters who were queer. Very brave young people but broken. Suicidal. The suicide rate and the violence against gay and lesbians in this country has spiked dramatically in the past year. 70% of us like are queer people of color. But anyway, I have a ritual in the book where I was blowing bubbles in Ashville, North Carolina -- the HB2 law -- the bathroom law -- which was a very violent law in many ways. And it�s nothing compared to the ones that are coming up in November by the way. The one in Massachusetts is going to -- if the referendum goes through -- it could allow hotel owners and restaurant owners to once again just evict gay and lesbian people legally. [00:15:31.00] DAVID DEVINE: Really? [00:15:31.00] CA CONRAD: Oh, there are already these laws now in the past couple years that are existing -- everywhere. And, there are laws in Georgia and Kansas -- to protect Christian adoption agencies so they don't have to have gay people adopt children -- things like this. [00:15:49.20] DAVID DEVINE: So, would you say your poetry is a form of healing -- about healing and or its the microphone - it�s a message. Its - it sounds like you use it in so many different ways, not just to see the light, but also to show others the light as well. [00:16:04.15] CA CONRAD: Sure. My main concern is that everybody understand that they are creative. [00:16:11.10] DAVID DEVINE: Yeah, I love that. [00:16:12.09] CA CONRAD: Well, we need creativity. There is absolutely no way that we're going to figure our way out of these problems that are facing us without creative solutions. Creative people are the survivors. [00:16:24.01] DAVID DEVINE: Yes! Why do you think creativity does that and or can hold space to do such things like that? [00:16:29.16] CA CONRAD: Well, creativity is this vital organ that we have and that's the -- is necessary to being able to figure out the new solutions. I mean when Einstein said that imagination is more important than knowledge -- what he was telling us was that its far more useful for us to be creating new ideas rather than living in the old paradigms. The old paradigms are clearly not working. [00:16:53.16] DAVID DEVINE: Cleary, yes. [00:16:54.02] CA CONRAD: So, we need -- and there are a lot of people. A lot of creative -- and when I say creative people I mean all kinds of creative people. Scientists are creative. There are a lot of scientists right now who are using their creative abilities to come up with solutions. There is a toilet being designed by grad students in Denver -- that is going to turn human solid waste into bio char for the first time. Which is unheard of especially for the United States because we have the most toxic diet the planet has ever seen. We have chemical companies that invent chemicals and dyes just to make money in the food industry. There is no need for any of it, but -- when people eat the standard American diet their solid waste is literally a toxic waste site now. So, these toilets -- these creative young people are inventing - I want to say creative scientists is going to just change everything because it�s going to turn the solid waste into these pellets that will be able to be used for fertilizer and fuel. That's what I am talking about. We've got some brilliant people everywhere! [00:18:04.03] CA CONRAD: Yeah, there is a lot of different creative things coming -- it�s kind of weird because the situations that we're in the ocean being thrown - stuff just being thrown away in the ocean just randomly it all kind of congregates in this one spot, but people are figuring out ways to clean it up with the imaginations -- like these ideas. They have this creativity. It�s kind of weird to think that some of the ideas that come up wouldn't exist if the problems didn't exist themselves. So, it�s like our creativity is also being transformed by the problems that arise within the situations that we're living in. So, it�s like our creativity is almost being challenged in such a way where I would love to see our creativity used in more of a -- that's what I want to do way and not that's what I have to go clean up sort of way. [00:18:51.16] CA CONRAD: I agree. And, creativity is also for activism. When I went to Occupy Wall Street almost everybody I met was an art student or creative writing student. It takes creative minds to figure out how to get around these barriers the police will put up. I've watched them do it over and over again. There would be a barrier - they'd huddle together and come up with a solution. It was a great school. It was a tremendous school. And I am talking about creativity for surviving. I am talking about the poet, Robert Desnos in Auschwitz and Treblinka as a prisoner writing poems. And, the Nazi's -- you know they come, and they round him and it�s the prisoners are up, and they are going to take them to the gas chamber and kill them all, but because he is the poet - because he is the creative mind in the group -- he gets off the truck first and he's a palm reader. He reads palms -- so he is a early you know 20th century surrealist poet -- they were into the occult you know. So, he starts reading all the other prisoners palms like you have a very long life line and he is doing it in German. Exuberantly. And, he's dying of typhoid. And he hasn't eaten a solid meal in months. And he is drudging the sincerity and this exuberance, and the guards are so angry and confused and he keeps doing it -- he won't stop and then they become despondent because he keeps focusing on the life line. You madam are going to live a very long life and have grandchildren you know retire -- and so they load them all back on the trucks and send them back. And a few weeks later the Allied Forces liberate the camp. And, we've been hearing for over half a century these stories from the survivors about a poet who figured out how to save all of these lives without a single bullet. That's what I am talking about creativity. That's the main reason I am talking about creativities necessity. And so, when I am here at Naropa teaching my main goal -- yeah, I mean I love looking at the student's poems. It�s not that I don't want to look at their work -- but my only care is that at the end of my time teaching with them -- that they understand that when life takes over -- and you know they get all these responsibilities, jobs, children, whatever happens to them -- that they can always find a way to write. Because 98% of everybody stops doing their art. Almost everybody. Hands down. [00:21:21.08] I know for a fact when I was a teenager in Philadelphia I had a few hundred peers of artists of all kinds. By the time we were in our late 20s about half of everybody was finished and now that I am in my 50s its extremely rare for me to find anybody my age who is still doing their work. But it doesn't have to be that way. [00:21:41.23] DAVID DEVINE: Yeah, I love this idea of creativity - because before speaking with you I thought of creativity as this extracurricular activity thing that you would do when you have some free time. And what I am loving about hearing what you are saying is creativity is inherently always with you and to nurture it. It�s like a garden. You need to water it. You need to plant some seeds. You need to understand that this is a viable thing in your life that does create this energetic flow within you. And I am just like really feeling inspired to hear you talk about creativity in such a way like this. [00:22:17.16] CA CONRAD: Well, good. When I do talks I always -- make sure that I say that I believe creativity is a vital organ. And I do mean that. We are only on this planet for a short period of time. Yes, I believe we do come back -- whether we do or not, we have a responsibility right now as humans to deal with all of the corruption we've done to the surface of the planet. As Elizabeth Culvert says, who wrote the book about the sixth mass extinction we are currently in. She says, yes, there are a lot of -- actually let me just read the quote. [00:22:54.05] DAVID DEVINE: Yes, please. [00:22:54.16] CA CONRAD: There are a lot of things that we could do to minimize what we are doing but we're not getting back those frogs that I saw that no longer exist. We've lost 60% of all of wildlife. There is a -- there is a beautiful called the golden toad that uh just a handful of years ago was wiped out. January of this year -- the eastern puma on the eastern United States was completely wiped out finally. There are so many species -- and when I was a child in the 70s -- there were 25 thousand white rhinos on the plains of Africa. In 2018, there are zero in the wild and there are three left and they are all in separate zoos. That's what we're talking about here. It�s a major avalanche of life leaving the planet right now. And that's why we need to be creative. We need to figure it out. There are so many people in Europe right now in particular coming up with these solutions to -- one use plastic. We've got to stop using plastic. [00:23:56.21] DAVID DEVINE: I love -- I just love your passion about all this. It seems like you have such a clear message and I love how you insert the creativity into this message as well. [00:24:07.11] CA CONRAD: And, I think the students here at Naropa especially at like Jack Kerouac School Summer Writing Program -- this is I think my 8th year teaching 7th or 8th -- they are always my favorite students to teach because they have a - a political body that's visible. You know I think everybody does, but I feel like a lot of people are more reserved about their politics. Naropa encourages this. I feel like what Anne Walden and Jeffery and Swainey and everybody doing here is nurturing something that is going to sustain not only this community here, but it�s going to send people out to help change the direction we are headed in. And we are headed in a very grime direction. There is no doubt about it, but I am not a dark green. You know the green - the environmental movement. Many of the environmentalists are dark green and they are like it�s over. There is nothing left. There are people right now who are saying we have just a handful of years before things get really dark and awful. I believe that that's not true. And I am not an optimist. I simply believe that our collective genius can figure the problems out. We have this opportunity right now to stave off this hemorrhaging that is currently underway. And, I think we need to actually start with the 7 wars were in. The so called Western world has not seen one of its nations invade 7 nations since Nazi Germany. The United States is killing people - our drones have killed over a thousand civilians in Pakistan alone - almost 300 of that number were little kids under the age of 5. And that was mostly under the Obama administration. I voted for that man twice, but it was difficult the second time. Seeing all these people being brutalized. What we're doing in the middle east will never be forgiven in our lifetimes. But, we need to end these wars. We've got to stop killing people for these resources and we've got to find a new way of living without those resources. Because those wars are all about the oil and the gas and we've got to stop it. [00:26:13.18] Because if we don't stop consuming these fossil fuels we're going to have to keep engineering new wars. You know I can't believe that I am living in this time when I've seen the gay and lesbian community co-opted by the military industrial complex. The so called human rights campaign -- the equal sign that everybody loves so much. I don't. As somebody who is from the 80s whose -- in Act Up and Queer Nation -- I never trusted HRC. [00:26:37.19] And, when you look at their drop down menu for the corporations they're supposed to be working for -- Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Monsanto, Wells Fargo. Like institutional racism and terrorism on every -- from like ecology to actual war mechanisms. I am not going to vote -- work for Lockheed Martin and build bombs. When I think about the people that -- I met Marsha P. Johnson who started the Stonewall Riot in 1969. I met her in 1990 at a private event in New York City in Topkin Square Park. She was standing there with a sign that said Stonewall was her riot not a trademark. And first of all, I was like are you Marsha P. Johnson and she is like yes, I am. And I said, you know, I was like I am so honored to meet you. I think you are probably the coolest person I've ever met. And she said, well of course I am. And we started talking and I was like tell me about your sign. And she is like this is all a mistake. Everything -- and this is somebody who didn't just have a riot and fight the police. But also, then march in the streets for against the war for labor rights. For tenant rights. I mean that's what the gay and lesbian community used to be. [00:27:51.15] This like intense revolutionary -- it was like a new American revolution. And, I feel like we've lost our way. Because we assimilated to the darkest possible regions of this nation. Our job was to convince the dominate culture to join us. But instead we -- thought that the idea was to join them. I think the problem is that most of the most radical creative people of my generation died of AIDS. And it just wiped out this whole voice -- around us and so we were stuck with these sort of like white young rich Republicans who want everybody to get married and vote Republican and you know I am just -- its almost like - I can't constantly live in this state of disbelief. I have to just accept where we're at. I am actually on the verge of doing a new ingredient to this ritual with the extinct animal�s work. I want to appreciate cement. I want to appreciate plastic. I want to appreciate gasoline and coal. I know that sounds insane, but this is the planet that I live on. [00:28:54.02] And this is what we've done to it. I don't want to just go off into the woods and pretend that all of that doesn't exist. I want to remind myself everyday -- my hair is very long. I have it up right now, but I am doing a very long ritual every morning -- this is a very long -- this poem is over 5000 pages long -- and every morning I look at the latest body count and I measure from the very tips of the hair -- all the war dead and I just let it grow with these wars. So, I -- every morning when I wake up I am looking at the latest body counts in these countries. The drone reports, etc. [00:29:27.03] And I know when I leave wherever I am at -- I am not going to meet a single person in the United States who is talking about these wars. And when I go to Europe everybody is talking about them. Everybody I meet wants to say like why is your country in all these wars? Nobody talks about it over here. And the media doesn't even talk about it over here. [00:29:48.12] DAVID DEVINE: Yeah, I think a lot of people don't even know we're in a lot of wars. [00:29:51.18] CA CONRAD: I don't know how they can't know but I guess you are right. [00:29:54.20] DAVID DEVINE: Well, it�s their filtering systems where they get their information. Where they find what's going on -- it�s not the outlets that want you to know what's going on. [00:30:04.11] CA CONRAD: War is absolutely evil. And there is no other nation on this planet currently waging this much war than the United States -- hands down. If you think I am wrong show me. Because I don't think it�s true. Lockheed Martin unleashed a couple years ago the F-35 Jet. There has never been anything like this on the planet. This jet is so sophisticated there will never be a dog fight with it. Because -- there - nobody has anything that even remotely close to what this is capable of doing. And they are considering it the last fighter jet because we're only working with drones now. As a matter of fact, the Spider Jet is almost a drone. Some of the drone operators are here in Denver, Colorado. And I mean the drone operators that are killing kids in Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan -- you know -- this is more about creativity. There artist in Pakistan right now -- it�s very easy to be in the United States with this isolationist mentality we have and watch TV and Netflix -- whatever you want to do and just forget that we're murdering people everyday, but the people in Pakistan don't have that luxury. [00:31:12.23] And the artists over there don't have that luxury. And what they found out was the artists that the drone operators in Denver can't see facial recognition on those drones and it�s to protect the drone operators from PTSD. So, oh its ok for the people in Pakistan to have PTSD -- but just not our precious soldiers here. So, you know what they have done? They have taken the photographs of faces of kids that we've murdered, and they've blown them to the size of fields - acres. So that when those drones come in they can't not see them. I think that is brilliant. Maybe that will give us more Chelsea Manning�s. We need more Chelsea Manning�s. [00:31:50.14] DAVID DEVINE: It�s like humanizing the actual outty of what war is to the people who are trying to not see it. But they are involved in it. They are trying to like make it seem like it�s not this thing that they are doing, but they are participating in something that their soul doesn't agree with. Some heavy stuff. [00:32:08.10] CA CONRAD: It is heavy. But it is the reality of the country we are living in. And, every tax dollar you know that we pay a portion of that goes to this -- the Pentagon and the war machine. Trump gave them an 800 billion dollar raise. That's insane. [00:32:26.14] DAVID DEVINE: That's insane. [00:32:27.11] CA CONRAD: People need medical attention. We have a huge homeless population right now. When I travel across the United States part of my ritual involves me sleeping in my car in Walmart parking lots. And then -- because Walmart is to me the ultimate -- reesults of manifest destiny. The genocide of the native people and wiping out many, many wild species to build Walmart�s. And there are 9000 of them in the lower 48 states. And they have about a half a million items in each one. And I listen when I wake up in the morning in my car - I go into the Walmart. I listen to the extinct animals on headphones. I walk around the store into a spiral and then in the middle of the spiral I kneel down and write notes. But the thing that I didn't realize was going to happen is that in doing this -- every single Walmart parking lot I visit -- there are cars with homeless families. With signs in the windshield we need baby formula. We need diapers. There is something about this nation that's just so easy for some reason to not see the poor. And we create entire neighborhoods so that you don't have to see them. And highway systems. [00:33:42.12] But they are there, and they are there by the droves. [00:33:46.03] DAVID DEVINE: So, many things that take on -- whoa. You know it�s like writing is this thing we all learn how to do in school, but then there is -- this inserting of meaning within writing and within poetry and within the words you write. The way you write it. I really appreciate and acknowledge the fact that there are some powerful wordsmiths out there that are really shifting people's thoughts about how they should move through the world and it seems - this is something that you've taken on too. And this is not no easy task. You seem like you're holding so much in your heart, so much in your soul that it�s like your whole life has turned into a ritual. [00:34:32.16] [00:34:33.03] CA CONRAD: Well it its. Every day -- I mean this is something that it has done for me. That -- my life is always present. I am not interested in dwelling on the past. I've dwelled on the past a little bit to cure my depression, but after that was over I am like I got to go forward, and I eat massive amounts of garlic every morning. I know that is terrible because you are probably annoyed by that right now. In this little room. [00:34:57.15] DAVID DEVINE: I love garlic. [00:34:58.11] CA CONRAD: Ok, well it�s a good thing. Uh -- LAUGHS. But you know the thing is about this writing program here at Naropa -- I mean -- I've been here for a few weeks like sitting and listening to panels -- this school is not like any other school in the United States. There are brilliant creative people. There was a panel yesterday with Dawn Lundy Martin and Rodrigo Toscano and Thurston Moore and it was so good. It was such a good panel. And, solutions for what we're supposed to do with this culture as it falls apart. Because it is falling apart. But it�s the best thing is that the part that needs to fall apart is crumbling right now. I think it�s beautiful. And, I think that Naropa is like if I meet people who are like maybe I should go to writing school - I say well I think you should go to Naropa because -- there is space there that you are not going to find elsewhere. [00:35:50.16] DAVID DEVINE: Yeah, we have the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied and Poetics here during the normal school session and then during the summer which you are here for is the Summer Writing Program. And, this is what you are speaking to is like this program that kids get to come to and its either you get to come for one week or you can come for all three weeks and every day we have panels. We have lectures. We have guest speakers and it�s just this entourage of intellectual knowledge and just meaning and ritual and just beautiful like-minded individuals who are doing good work. [00:36:22.13] CA CONRAD: Very good work. People who are going to help push the cultural forward. [00:36:27.13] DAVID DEVINE: Yes. [00:36:28.03] CA CONRAD: This sort of deviance that can do that. You know you need - you need a certain amount of deviance to be deviance meaning nothing more than outside the acceptable, respectable world you know because if you maintain your footing in the acceptable world you're going to wind up not being able to change anything. [00:36:44.18] DAVID DEVINE: So, to speak more about SWP -- you've been teaching here for -- you say 8 or 9 -- [00:36:49.23] CA CONRAD: Seven or eight years. [00:36:52.01] DAVID DEVINE: Seven or eight years yeah and I have worked in Naropa for a while and I remember I've seen many of your panels, many of your lectures and I was just always so blown away about your just openness and your just -- your style of writing and I am curious like how do you define you style of writing? Like do you have a style or do you kind of just make it up as you go. Is there something - like a bigger narrative has just been taking place over the years of writing? [00:37:17.21] CA CONRAD: Well, I feel very fortunate to have just been continuously writing for many -- I mean I started writing in 1975. So, I'm writing. I've never stopped writing. And, it�s just part of me now. It�s like I don't even think about it. I create these rituals. I do the rituals. I take the notes inside the ritual. They are not documentary notes. They are notes that are beyond my thinking. I write with the speed to get ahead of my -- editor within. Once I get a head of that editor the magical language appears. [00:37:50.12] DAVID DEVINE: Interesting. [00:37:51.07] CA CONRAD: And then the poems get shaped through those notes. I might use 2% of the words I write down. [00:37:57.21] DAVID DEVINE: Huh? [00:37:59.07] CA CONRAD: Almost all the words are thrown out. [00:38:00.22] DAVID DEVINE: You go back through that and you choose what you want -- is that how that works? [00:38:04.20] CA CONRAD: Yeah, I type them all up after they are hand written and its pages and pages of notes and then -- it�s just a tiny fraction. [00:38:13.11] DAVID DEVINE: What makes it compared to what doesn't? How do you decide? [00:38:17.19] CA CONRAD: I don't know it�s always different. [00:38:19.12] DAVID DEVINE: Ok. [00:38:19.23] CA CONRAD: And, yeah, I am not sure how to explain that any further. [00:38:24.07] DAVID DEVINE: The process -- it just sounds like its happened and over the years you've been doing this you've kind of developed your own. And it�s really interesting to -- so would you say you've probably constantly always have a note pad in -- always have a pen. Are you a fan of more writing it down or like do you put it in your notes on your phone? [00:38:43.01] CA CONRAD: No, I always write it down. And then I type it up. And, after its typed up then -- and it�s just this word splurge. It doesn't make any sense. But that's fine. The more it looks like it doesn't make sense I know the better it�s going to be. Once your mind starts to follow a trail -- or a thread or a full sentence that's the problem. [00:39:03.15] DAVID DEVINE: Interesting. [00:39:04.10] CA CONRAD: When you maintain that within yourself and just go with that -- you're not finding the real magical language inside of you. You have to be willing to get ahead of that. You have to be willing to let go of that editor. That editor is invaluable when you are shaping the poem. We've been grooming these editors since we were infants. You know like communicating for milk or the shiny earring or whatever. And we just keep accumulating these tools on how to communicate. And these editors of course eventually learn what syntax is and punctuation and that's all well. That's fine. But it gets in the way of the wrong notes. So, I -- it�s a task that's -- that's not always that easy. [00:39:46.19] You get caught in mind loops and I have tools for getting out of those. [00:39:51.20] DAVID DEVINE: Yeah, it�s like a jazz free style artist compared to someone just reading sheet music and just playing the notes. [00:39:57.17] CA CONRAD: Absolutely. Yeah. That sounds right. [00:40:00.05] DAVID DEVINE: I like that. Very cool. Do you notice a difference between - because it sounds like you teach at a couple different places. So, when you come to Naropa is there like a difference in the writing students here compared to other places? Or would you say writing students in general kind of have this uh -- way about them that they have a collective message they usually want to speak about? [00:40:21.16] CA CONRAD: I am excited to visit anybody who is learning to write. That's for sure. And, but -- I think the difference isn't the students so much it�s the institutions. And this institution here fosters a wider variety of ideas for being in the world than I can find anywhere else. [00:40:41.21] DAVID DEVINE: I like that idea. So, it�s like the - necessarily the students aren't the people that are different coming to the different universities - it�s the university that is allowing the flow of information that you're allowed to kind of like explore and or discuss amongst other people. [00:40:59.18] CA CONRAD: Well, I am particularly talking about politics. I mean this is the capital of seeing this time. Right, so it�s all about confronting - I mean every year there is a theme that centers around like the destruction of ecology, politics, racism, misogyny, homophobia -- these things we talk about these things here. I am not saying these things are not being talked about elsewhere. I am not saying that. I am just saying that there is something here at Naropa that is magical and special. That when you get here the land itself -- lends a particular edge to give students the leverage to just really open and be themselves. [00:41:42.00] DAVID DEVINE: Yeah, diving into topics that aren't necessarily ultimately explored. [00:41:45.20] CA CONRAD: Oh, I see them flourish. They are -- first of all they are brilliant, and they really want to be creative. They want community. They want to be -- they are very concerned about these problems. And they want to actually do something about it. That's what I find here at Naropa. I don't find students that are just wanting to talk about it. They want to do something about it. [00:42:06.20] DAVID DEVINE: Yes, I love that. Thank you. So, we have -- we just have like a couple minutes left. And, I just want to kind of highlight you a bit. I know that you have written a bunch of books. I am just kind of curious do you want to share how people can find your writings. How they can find your poetry. Maybe a website or a blog that you do. Anything like that so that people can just follow who you are. [00:42:26.14] CA CONRAD: Well, if you go on my website -- which is caconrad -- just put that into Google. It will come up. CA Conrad dot blogspot dot com. All of my books are there. My new book just won the Land of Literary Award, which I am very excited about. [00:42:40.15] DAVID DEVINE: Congrats. [00:42:41.10] CA CONRAD: Thank you. And, I have -- my book - the Book of Frank is probably -- well, I wrote a book about Elvis that is very popular, but the book I wrote called the Book of Frank is probably my best selling book I would say. It�s been translated into 9 languages. It�s being translated into Polish now. The Danish translation came out a couple months ago and I just got this great review and I am very excited about my translator Lina Kallmayer and I are very excited - Ovo Press published the book because it was a full page review with a photograph of me and raving about the book and it�s in their biggest newspaper - it�s like the New York Times of Denmark. I am not actually -- the festival isn't in Copenhagen -- its outside of Copenhagen. So, I am going to get to be reading with Lina from this translation. I am very excited about. [00:43:28.15] DAVID DEVINE: Awesome. So, I really appreciate you coming in and speaking with me. There is just like this passion that you have. There is this knowledge -- this insight. I love how you incorporate ritual into everything you do. It seems like -- there is so many rituals that I can be implementing in my life that I am hyper sensitive and aware to the world's state in which I live in and to also ignite other people to invite themselves to like kind of show in a more meaningful way and I just love your perspective on everything and just thank you for speaking with me today. [00:44:05.14] CA CONRAD: Thank you. Do you mind if I read one tiny little new poem in the new book? [00:44:08.17] DAVID DEVINE: I would love it. [00:44:09.20] CA CONRAD: As a goodbye. [00:44:10.14] DAVID DEVINE: Please read another one. [00:44:11.08] CA CONRAD: This is from -- a ritual that I did in Martha, Texas. Where I did 36 rituals a day for 36 days. It was quite exciting. [00:44:19.06] DAVID DEVINE: This is like a ritual upon a ritual. [00:44:21.14] CA CONRAD: It was great. I loved every minute of it. [00:44:23.07] DAVID DEVINE: An intention. [00:44:23.22] CA CONRAD: "Saturn.1" butterfly on a tissue box not a real one a painting a monarch one more sign for anguish poured and poured a choice to feel or stack bricks between I was sad when my talented friend started designing television commercials he told me to grow up but the rocks in the desert I touch signal an endless new place something without money saying �never tire of demanding love for the world� [00:44:54.23] DAVID DEVINE: Thank you so much for sharing all that. [00:44:56.12] CA CONRAD: Thank you for having me. [00:44:59.04] DAVID DEVINE: So, that was CA Conrad on the podcast. CA is a writer, a poet, an author and a teacher. And is teaching at the Summer Writing Program this semester at Naropa. So, thanks again. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]