24. Barbara Catbagan: Creating Resilient Teachers for a Crazy World

Barbara �Creating Resilient Teachers for a crazy World� [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host David Devine. And it's a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions -- Naropa is the birthplace of the modern mindfulness movement. [00:00:46] DAVID: Hello. Today I'd like to welcome Barbara Catbagan. She is the chair of the Contemplative Education Department program and an associate professor at Naropa University. And I'd like to thank you for speaking with us today. [00:00:57] BARBARA: Thank you, David for having me on the podcast. [00:00:59] DAVID: Yeah. So, is there anything else interesting or fun you'd like to share with us about yourself? [00:01:06] BARBARA: Well let's see how far do you want it to be? I mean you know... I'm just fantastic. I've been in education for a really long time and I've done a lot of different things in education from educating community members as the Director of the Human Rights Office for the city of Fort Collins. I did that for five years. I was a junior high school, middle school, high school teacher for a number -- number of years. I consult with a lot of different universities and school districts on culturally responsive teaching and mindfulness and I love life. [00:01:45] DAVID: Wow, that is beautiful. You sound like you've been in education for a long time. It's quite the career path. [00:01:52] BARBARA: I think that it gives me an opportunity to see it from a lot of different viewpoints. [00:01:58] DAVID: Yeah you seem very insightful about the topic and I'm really interested to explore it. [00:02:02] BARBARA: Thank you. [00:02:03] DAVID: You were also a teacher of mine. [00:02:05] BARBARA: Yes, I was. [00:02:06] DAVID: That was fun! Like I was telling you earlier you made me cry in your class. [00:02:11] BARBARA: Well uh... [00:02:11] DAVID: It was a good cry everyone. I promise. [00:02:14] BARBARA: It was a good cry. You know I think that's probably one of the most beautiful things about being able to be in a place like Naropa -- is that one of the things that we ask of our students is to reach down inside themselves and find out who they are. And I think that's really important for pre- service teachers. [00:02:34] DAVID: Yeah. So, thank you. [00:02:35] BARBARA: Yeah. [00:02:36] DAVID: All right. So, let's start with our topic. We're going to talk about contemplative education. How that shows up and just like I got a bunch of fun questions I want to ask you. So, if you just want to go ahead and start. [00:02:47] BARBARA: All right. Contemplative education. Hmmm. Well, how is it different than anything else? I mean, so I'm the chair of this department and we have recently launched this program in elementary education. So, one thing I know is that students could go just about any direction in the state and get teacher licensure. So, I come to Naropa, right? What makes us different and what makes us different is the approach of contemplative education. The approach of having our students look from so many different perspectives. The aspect of bringing contemplative pedagogies into what they are doing from the very first time they enter class. And because this pedagogy is actually happening in all their other classes, whatever those might be, whether they're the core classes, the general education classes they have to take or environmental science or whatever it is. [00:04:01] DAVID: Something 101. [00:04:03] BARBARA: Right. Something, something 101. Or 307 or whatever it is. The faculty here hold a presence. And you know we call this contemplative teaching in a crazy world. [00:04:19] DAVID: So, we're calling it "creating resilient teachers for a crazy world." [00:04:22] BARBARA: So "resilient teachers in a crazy world" and I've been in the classroom and I go into classrooms and all you have to do is just read the newspaper and you see how crazy things are out there. And, so what does it mean to be a contemplative in a classroom? What does it mean to be resilient? [00:04:41] DAVID: Yeah, interesting. When I hear the word resilient -- when it comes to the teaching kind of a model -- I hear something that deals with longevity, sustainability, being able to feed yourself energy because it sounds mildly draining. There's a lot of energy giving/ taking. So how does a contemplative teacher's self-love and love the students and love the curriculum and the teachings and this- that is kind of what I feel like the contemplative model does. It gives the teacher tools and also the student tools to empower themselves to dig deep. [00:05:16] BARBARA: I think you know that from uh where you've been here at Naropa, but you're absolutely right. And resiliency, how does contemplative education do that when we have practiced how to love ourselves enough to stand in our own --what I'm going to call business...LAUGHS... then we can be more empathetic to the context from which our students come. So, if I'm in a class and I have 27 students and one of them is having a particularly hard day or hard week or a hard life -- then it makes it possible for me to resource my patience and my sense of humor if that's called on to help that student remain focused. To help that student to create for themselves within themselves. Tools that help them get through the day. And, no matter what age you are if your life circumstances are in your way it's really hard to get through the day. [00:06:34] DAVID: Yeah and there's this availability to show up as is because sometimes you're going to feel like crap. And sometimes you're going to feel amazing. It just depends on what's going on in the moment. The contemplative model the sort of classrooms I was in -- that was the first classroom that they'd be like, "how are you feeling today?" What? Hold on -- is that... I didn't I didn't see that in the curriculum. To talk about how I feel today. All right. Well, I feel like crap. This is how I feel. It's amazing how that can inform how we retain information and education. [00:07:07] BARBARA: It does. I know in the class that we had together. I did that every class we started with a check in. What does that do for the instructor as well? That gives me a sense of what's in the room. That doesn't take away from the content because the content is still there. The content is still valuable but. it informs me and the rest of the class about how that content might be heard. And so, what it does is it opens the door for a richer conversation. [00:07:38] DAVID: Yeah, it's the forecast of how the information will be disseminated. [00:07:41] BARBARA: Yeah, it could be. [00:07:43] DAVID: It's like you go bring your umbrella today or is it snowing outside? Very cool. Wow, I can see how this is like so powerful. And there's also a sense of uh all the other students know how everyone else feels and even the teacher shows up and says something like, "this is how I'm feeling today." You know? And, that's very powerful. I really enjoy this. [00:08:04] BARBARA: Yeah. Yeah. That is. That is a powerful piece of it. And, while it might not be a possibility to do that if you're a third grade teacher and you have 30 kids -- it might be? It might be able -- you might be able to do that in different ways. And so, we take the contemplative tools and we use them appropriately within the classroom. Sometimes I think that especially in K12 teaching -- a teacher is using a contemplative tool and the students never know it. I think that also happens here at the university. We talk about things like... how we listen. Just the idea of listening. How is it different? And there is a difference in holding yourself in a what we here call presence which means you're realizing if a judgment comes up and you're letting it go away so you can actually hear what the other person is saying. It's not that you never have judgments it would be impossible for us to think that we could be judgment less. But, you know there is that -- [00:09:19] DAVID: It might be impossible to not judge, but it is good to be skillful with how you judge and to also know that maybe your heart isn't the judge -- and it's your ego. So, when judgment does come to light that's ego -- that's over there. That's not like my true center. So, to label it as that. [00:09:42] BARBARA: And that takes practice... and that takes practice. And so, that's the other thing I think that makes our program different than other education programs. And that is that students get to practice those skills and the lessons that they create just for our classes and then in the lessons that they create as they work in their practicum and internships. They get to practice them with each other and then they get to practice some on a day to day basis in their own communications because it's this, "I'm gonna call it a quiet demand" and maybe my colleagues might object to that. But, we ask people to show up in that way. You know the contemplative teaching that we so often talk about is researching in the third person and writing in the first and the second and the third person. And so, if we are asking people to show up in all those different ways it's rigorous -- in that it asks you to interact with the current theory with the current knowledge that's out there. And that's the third person. And it asks, you to reflect and it asks you to also in that reflection personalize it for how you will apply it. I have had students come from other programs and it's just different. I don't -- I wouldn't diss any other program, but what I would say is that the difference is that students say, well, why do you want me to think about it in that way? And the answer to that that I have is because if you don't think about it in that way, that way meaning how does that impact you? How do you think you�re thinking is going to impact the students that your gonna work with? And you don't think about it that way -- then you're impacting people without any thought. [00:11:46] DAVID: Yeah. It's a nice way to look at it and to think about it. [00:11:50] BARBARA: Yeah. [00:11:51] DAVID: Yeah, so we're talking about this program -- the licensure program that we have here. Can you say more about that -- that like the actual program? [00:12:00] BARBARA: Yeah, the licensure program. It's a program very much like -- and very much unlike other teacher licensure programs throughout the state of Colorado. So, it has the Colorado Department of Education approval. It has the approval of the State Board of Education. It has the approval of the Department of Higher Education. It has the approval of the Higher Learning Commission. So, in order for us to even begin this program there was two and a half years of work of putting the entire program together to look at it. [00:12:42] DAVID: Yeah, dad we name everyone? Is everyone here? [00:12:44] BARBARA: I think we named every -- well it also had to go through our own curriculum committee. So, it's vetted that way. But it also -- so that means that it meets all of the standards that the state is looking for and that higher learning is looking for. That school districts are looking for. But it also means that it is a contemplative program that Naropa thinks is worthwhile. [00:13:12] DAVID: What sparks someone to want to be a teacher to be that person in front of a class? Kind of like take on these responsibilities to mold minds? Like what is it inside someone? [00:13:26] BARBARA: That's a great question that has probably as many answers as there are people who want to teach. But I can hit on a few things, so I can just say from my personal point of view that there's something magical that happens in the classroom. And it doesn't happen in every classroom and it doesn't happen every class and I'll be the first to admit that. But you can probably think back and I'll -- I will ask -- [00:13:56] DAVID: Do you have to? [00:13:57] BARBARA: No, but I'll ask all your listeners to think back to who was that teacher? There is usually some teacher out there that made you go really? Or, I never thought about it that way. Or that was in some ways so supportive of you that you knew education was important. And so that's one reason people teach because education is important. For me it's been about the excitement that I feel. So yeah, it's my own ego. The excitement that I feel when I see the light bulb go on and you know it doesn't matter if it's a kindergartner or a third grader or a middle school or high schooler or my current university students. When the concept because of something that we have figured out how to do, lights up their brain and their eyes and their heart is beating faster, and they just have to say something about it. That's why I'm in the classroom. [00:15:04] DAVID: Do you think somebody -- somebody walks into this program knowing they're like -- I'm going to be a teacher? Or do you feel like they try it on to see if they want to be a teacher. Do you think people know right away or do you feel like they discover it? [00:15:20] DAVID: Well I have some students who say I always wanted to be a teacher. I always knew I wanted to be a teacher. I have some students who say I'm going to take a couple of these education classes and see if this is really what I want to do. I have other students who say I'm not sure, but I think I want to be a teacher. [00:15:42] And so, what do we do? We get them out in the schools as soon as possible. Our students began within their first year in public and private schools in this area. And they watch master teachers and they get to ask questions and they bring their reflections back to class and we talk about those. You know it's like when you're a kid and you think you want to ride a bike, but you don't know if you can and you get on and you fall off a couple of times. But then once you get going and you realize wow the wind is in my face and I'm doing this on my own. It's that same kind of exhilaration when you're in the classroom. [00:16:32] DAVID: Yeah things I haven't ever experienced. I've never taught in front of people I've had like a student here and there teaching music but never in front of a classroom captivating young minds or old minds or just old souls, young souls. This captivating people with information. [00:16:50] BARBARA: Right? I think the beautiful part about it is that once a person sets a tone in a classroom. And that's again where two things -- contemplative pedagogies and culturally responsive teaching come together. Once you put those things together and you set a tone in a classroom where people are unafraid to ask questions and to experiment with learning and with asking questions -- then you're not what has been known in the past as the sage on the stage. You're really a facilitator of learning. You're really more like that guide on the side who is helping students to find their own way through material here. And it's not like there's this free for all except maybe in somebody's mind that beautiful free fall that happens in your mind when you have so many questions about a topic that you know you're a little bit crazy about it and then you have someone helps you get focused. But you know I think that's that's a piece of her right there. [00:18:04] DAVID: Yeah. Thanks for talking about the culturally -- integrating the education in all of that. So, my next question kind of has a little bit of that involved. So, when it comes to being culturally responsible and teaching where is the intersection when you mend mindfulness to that and how do you show up with multiple people in a classroom like that? How do you hold space? [00:18:28] BARBARA: Right. So, the intersection between mindful teaching and cultural responsiveness. First just let me say that I have talked about these before as sisters from different mothers. [00:18:47] DAVID: I like that. [00:18:47] BARBARA: Because what they have in common is that we're never fully culturally responsive or never fully mindfully present. But we're always working at it. And so, what that means is that at least for me is that we're going to make mistakes as teachers. We're going to make mistakes as people, but if we are mindful and culturally responsive teacher there's room in our classroom for ourselves and our students to make mistakes. And for that to become a part of the learning. So that the teacher is always learning with the students and the students are always learning with each other and with the teacher. And that creates a dynamism, a synergy in the classroom that works for students who have disabilities -- learning disabilities or physical disabilities or mental disabilities. That works for students who are English Language Learners. That works for students who are the top STEM students. That works for all students because we're learning from each other. [00:20:07] DAVID: I really like that. When I was K through 12 -- like as you said in my learning journey I was actually in the special education program because I had a problem learning. You know I had this thing that they labeled but what I realized is I learned differently. I didn't learn the same way that the material was being talked about. So, it kind of like made me feel weird about myself a little bit like oh I'm I learned different like what's going on? But that's like my edge. I have something like pretty special actually you like the way I can remember things. I found out that memory can be recalled through melody. So, I learned how to sing information and when it comes to music I remember everything. Like I hear and know -- I'm like oh that's Jimi Hendrix. I know that. There's different ways of learning and it's just how our brains work. Like where did you store that. Because our brains don't forget anything. [00:20:58] BARBARA: Yeah, that's really true that there are so many different ways of learning. I mean you know Gardner jumped into that one a while back and talked about all the different kinds of learning styles. And so that's what I mean too about the content in the classes. I mean it's important for us to understand that we're going to have all those different kinds of learners. No matter what level we're working with. Right? We're going to have a lot of different kinds of learners and so one of the things that we do is we look at how do we create lessons that are available to someone who sings, someone who -- for whom melody is the thing. Right? For someone who is a visual learner, for someone who has a -- is a kinesthetic learner and he has to write it or has to feel it. So, we have to know those things as teachers. That's part of also being a culturally responsive teacher. That's also part of being a mindful teacher. [00:22:06] DAVID: Not just giving people the information but giving the information in such a way that is retainable to the individual and unique. Looking at the spectrum of how everyone learns because everyone is going to be different within the classroom. And that's pretty -- it's pretty amazing to be able -- the energy readers, mind readers -- tapping into that [00:22:30] BARBARA: Tapping into that. I don't know if we're mind readers but certainly were energy readers I think. And, you know I mean I've been teaching probably as long or longer than you've been alive, David. But even today I spend a lot of time putting together lessons so that I can consider how is this going to land? And so, I expect that when students go from being the pre-service teachers that they are here -- to the teachers in the classrooms out everywhere in the world that they're going to do the same because they know -- they know how important that is. How important it is to -- to reach out to that student, and that student, and that student. [00:23:26] DAVID: And, that one over there too [00:23:28] BARBARA: Right. Yeah, I see you, exactly. So, teaching is a beautiful complicated hard and wonderful thing. And so, you know there's this whole bad bad thing out there about something that there was this bad -- I shouldn't even say it but I'm saying anyway -- this bad thing that was out there about if you can't do -- teach or something like that. I don't remember what it was, but it was a real denigration to teachers. And when you think about it teachers are the people who set up every other vocation and profession, you know. So yeah. So, I would say if you have the guts come be a teacher. Because that's what it takes -- you know it takes somebody who is really willing to let themselves be known. Somebody who's really willing to dig into some interesting stuff and let their students explore. [00:24:41] DAVID: Yeah, it's fun to think about that a teacher can show to a classroom -- having that thought playing -- playing that within their mind thinking these students are going to be the future -- they're -- they're going to be so many different occupations and career choices within this one room this one year of me serving the students. [00:25:02] BARBARA: I mean we don't even know today what those students will be doing, right? [00:25:07] DAVID: Not at all. [00:25:07] BARBARA: When I was teaching way back -- back in the day, as they say, when I was teaching then -- I had no idea really what students were going to do. But then later you know I would run into them or I would run into their parents and I'd say you know how's Jennifer doing? Or how's Tom doing -- or whatever. I once had a parent say you know she went into international law. Like whoa really? I mean I could picture this eighth grader. right? And she always said it was because you know she always had so many ways to think about it. And so, and I could remember that student that particular student -- I could remember her being really angry about the ads in magazines. And this was like back in the 80s. Right? And getting all charged up about that. I remembered her in another class getting all charged up about treaties and how the United States had broken every treaty they ever made with Native Americans. You know -- I get to see. --so, it made perfect sense to me that you went into international studies and international law, right? [00:26:23] DAVID: Wow. Wow seeing the beginning of this -- the start of careers -- the blooming. Yeah you get to foster all that. Sounds beautiful. [00:26:34] BARBARA: It's a -- its wonderful. I don't know why anybody wouldn't want to teach. [00:26:39] DAVID: Yeah. I mean there are some drawbacks. You know like if you teach in a public school it's really hard to get away from your classroom and go to the bathroom. But well you know you learn how to live with that. [00:26:50] DAVID: Yeah. Real life issues [00:26:52] BARBARA: Right? [00:26:54] DAVID: So, we have about a minute left. Is there anything that you just want to say coming from your heart as anyone who might be thinking about becoming a teacher. Maybe there is -- you can like help them make that decision. What helped you make that decision? Inspire us. [00:27:11] BARBARA: I don't know about that. Let me think for just a moment. [00:27:14] DAVID: No problem. [00:27:14] BARBARA: I think no matter what we do in this world we have the opportunity to be a leader and some of the work I do we have this saying that -- and this comes from the National Coalition for Equity and Education. And it is that -- leadership is taking responsibility for what matters to you. And if there is a particular area that matters to you whether it be science, whether it be mathematics, whether it be literature whether it be robotics or something that I can't name because I don't know about. Think about teaching because it's in your heart and it's -- it's a part of who you are. And is there a better way to share that than to be able to teach it and share it to young people? [00:28:14] DAVID: Yes. Thank you so much. [00:28:17] BARBARA: Thank you. [00:28:19] DAVID: So, I would like to thank Barbara Catbagan and just say thank you to her. She is the chair of the Contemplative Education Department and an associate professor here at Naropa. Thanks for speaking with us. [00:28:31] BARBARA: Thank you. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]