Relationship Dynamics: Relationship Anarchy

Hi! Hello! Welcome back to Mindful Poly. This is going to be a fun, different episode because you may notice that Nova's voice sounds a little different this time. Very different. Actually, it's not Nova at all. This is Elliot. Is he going to be our co-host for today, Elliot? Hello, I'm Elliot. I'm partnered with Nova. Sure. Yeah. We invited you just because we thought it would be fun, and this was the topic you were most interested in talking about.

Yeah, for sure. So, relationship anarchy, which we'll quickly define as a style of inter-reliance

built on choice rather than social expectations and externally imposed obligations. What I take from that is it's about being intentional and specifically choosing each element of your relationships that you want to have. Yeah, relationship anarchy is like when you start to dig into it, you realize it is a lot of work, and it's probably work we should have been doing in our relationships all along. Yeah, right? It's a lot of removing assumption.

Yeah, because you've talked about them, and you've negotiated a relationship with each individual that you're in a relationship with, and guess what? You're in a relationship with literally everyone you know. Oh my gosh. This will be a great spot. Do you have that quote

from the book? So, I think we should name the book. It's called Relationship Anarchy, Occupy Intimacy by Juan Carlos Perez Cortez, and he says, when we don't position some relationships as higher than others in terms of status, we don't need to allow ourselves to have several relationships. We already do. And so, what he's saying is, you know, I think that came from a specific part of the book where he was kind of critiquing polyamory as an answer

and a response to monogamy, which was, oh, I get to have multiple relationships. And, you know, the author saying, guess what? You already are in multiple relationships. You're in a relationship with your mom and your dad and your brother and your sister and your siblings and all of your friends and all of your workers, coworkers, you know, all of

it. Everyone in your life. Yeah. By definition, almost you can't have hierarchy because you're in each new relationship when you're having your negotiation or discussion about the kind of arrangement you want. It's brand new from scratch with that person, right? It's as if there aren't other ones that also exist. I think that's, and I think that is the wrong interpretation of what relationship anarchy is. That's the interpretation that I kind

of went into it with initially. It was like, well, I can make this relationship whatever I want, but guess what? I have a child who has a mother who I live with, both of those people and I have obligations to them. So even though I want to say I'm not hierarchical, that does not mean that, you know, one relationship is immediately equal to a new one. So like the relationship I have that is 10 years in the making is absolutely more impactful to

my life and more meaningful than the person I just met that I think is cute, right? And so I have to, the complex, the complexity of it comes in where it's like, if it's, if you've never met anyone in your life and you meet someone, you can negotiate whatever kind

of relationship you want with them. But once you start making those connections and once you start having obligations and commitments to those individuals, and I don't think relationship anarchy says you shouldn't have obligations and commitments to the people you love, right? Once you have that, they become part of the equation of any new negotiation by definition. Now they may not be directly involved, but you can't just sweep them away and be like,

well, I'm super in love with this person now, so I'm going to move to Las Vegas. You know? Well, I mean, you could. You could, right? Yes. The people in your life may or may not feel very good about that. Exactly. I honestly don't think you can have a hierarchy without some kind of privileged structure that really relationship anarchy would seek to dismantle.

So while I think that you can have labels and I think labels can be useful, I think relationship anarchy would say hierarchies are never a good thing because they necessarily mean there's a power structure there that we're seeking to eliminate. Wow. Yeah. I like the way you put that. Well, in that case, do you think that the word priorities might be a little bit more helpful of a term when you're trying to describe the, like you

said, like you have a child with a partner. So that child and that partner, your kind of enmeshment with that partner to take care of that child is a priority for you. And like, so that doesn't necessarily mean that you've imposed a hierarchy with that partner on all your other partners. Right. Right. But that we can for sure have priorities because that's just how you organize where you put your effort.

That's part of that discussion too, because again, some of these things can, can sneak in the baggage and the preconceptions. They sneak in if you're not careful because we are steeped in our culture. Like, like we're a cup of water and a bag of tea has been dropped into us. Right. And we've that, that bag of tea is sat there our entire life, just turning us into tea. Right. If we're all born water, we, we end up tea and relationship anarchy

is saying you don't have to stay that kind of tea, right? You can do a different kind of tea or you could be coffee or whatever it is. Um, but if you're not careful, that tea flavor, that taste is going to remain no matter what you do, it's always going to be there because you're just steeped in it. And so when you're talking about priorities, other people, I suspect might just hijack that and call that hierarchy. And so you still

have to have a conversation around it, but I think you're right. I think priorities are the right way to look at it. Again, it just has to be talked about. Sure. Like just because I started using a different word doesn't now mean I'm no longer imposing hierarchy. Yeah. Yeah. We can go around saying that we're non-hierarchical,

but we have to be non-hierarchical and practice, not just stating it. Right. And so you have to like, what are the power imbalances if you and I have been married for 20 years and we open our relationship with every intent to be non-hierarchical and I meet someone and that person picks up on this thing that no one's talking about that. And that thing being you and I and our 20 year shared history clearly have this shared history and you clearly

exert power on my relationship with this other person and no one's talking about it. Like a physical body having gravity. Yeah, sure. And though we can't really control gravity yet, we can control the ways that our power imbalances impact other people around us even just by calling them out and recognizing them. Sure. Acknowledging them. Not always, but sometimes it's enough. Yeah. Name the beast. Yeah. Like point out the elephant

in the room. Well, maybe that third person is actually okay with that and we've made assumptions that they're not or that they're being negatively impacted and like, Oh yeah, I know. I saw that and I don't care because I'm over here doing my thing and you made assumptions about me based on the tea in the room. That's excellent. I love it. Like, and because you talked about it, you found out that there was no problem. Yeah. Like I guess if you could distill relationship

anarchy down into basic concepts, self-determination, community building, and self-determination doesn't mean I as an individual necessarily as much as it means self as in a group of people are not ruled over by a king or a governor or legislature. They decide their own laws

and their own rules in political anarchy. And so then in relationship anarchy, you have a group of people, a community of people that you intentionally build and they all work together to have a symbiosis, I guess is the word peaceful coexistence. Yeah, sure. Exactly. And the conditions to thrive because it's not just about surviving. Yes. So what we're talking about is an intentional

rejection of harmful imposed paradigms. Relationship anarchy is like, nah, which it seems like relationship anarchy is saying most of what society has produced as a culture, at least in Western culture is harmful in a way. I find it hard to argue with. Yeah. Well, there's all of these subtle power dynamics at play anywhere from our government to religion to our economic structure and all these influences on us that are all just

kind of fading into the background. Like, you know, the radiation snapshot of the creation of the universe, you don't see it, but it's sitting there in the background impacting your life every day. And so relationship anarchy really challenges you to think about that at every step. I really appreciate that part of it. It is

a good thing to act and live with more intention and honest intention. Yeah. So the dominant paradigm is very romance and sexual exclusivity are the hierarchical most important, most valid relationships. Relationship anarchy would say they are not more important than your platonic friend, than all the rest of relationships in your life.

And what is a platonic friend anyway? We're kind of getting into labels, but you know, all of those labels have baggage like, oh, a platonic friend is someone that I shouldn't have romantic feelings for someone I shouldn't have sex with. Well, I mean, if you take the word should out, it's just my platonic partner, I do not have physical connection with. Yeah. It's hard though to use words when you're challenged to think about all of the things, all the baggage that comes with all of those

words. Right. That goes back to what you were saying earlier about it just being a lot of work. Yeah. Like in a lot of people just kind of, I would rather not think about every single word choice and every single choice in my life. Right. It kind of makes me think, I'm also an atheist. And so it kind of makes me think how it might have felt like 400 years ago to be an atheist, right? Where you just can't really, you're in this world where you just

can't talk about it. Now, back then, like I can go around and be like, I'm a relationship anarchist and no one's going to like burn me at the stake. Right. So maybe, you know, it's not even that bad, but even the fact that no one's going to kill me for coming out as a relationship right now, at least not in America, no one's going to kill me for that is still hard. It's still a hard thing. And Juan Carlos talks about this liminal

space where when you're trying to do this new thing that bucks the system, you end up feeling very alone. Like an alien, a stranger in a strange land. I feel like with you, I could, you know, talk about that. You and I have a friendship, an existing relationship that's pretty cordial. And that's something I could be like, wait a second, let's talk about that. And you'd be like, yeah, let's talk about that. But then other people might

be like, dude, I'm just sitting next to you at the bar. Stop pestering me. I just asked for you to pass the peanuts. What do you mean by pass? So, you know, like it's like, it's a hard win. You want to do a thing and no one else is doing it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I've had that big, big relating energy right there. Actually, that's kind of how this podcast started. It's just Nova and I recognize that we were both the types

that wanted to go, yeah, let's talk about that. Right. It's a good idea. I'm glad you guys came together on that. And I'm glad that you guys are including me in that journey. Yeah. Hell yeah. So I think we talked a lot about what relationship anarchy is, and now

it will be helpful. I mean, we have mentioned some misconceptions and some kind of assumptions about relationship anarchy, but let's intentionally jump to what relationship anarchy is not. The very first time I heard the term relationship anarchy, your mind immediately jumps to like a riot in the street because you're thinking of political anarchy as chaos, right? Which is actually not even true. And that's not true either. But that's the cartoon version

of it, right? So relationship anarchy you picture is relational chaos. It's like no rules, every no holds barred. Everything's like messy and like does everyone just does whatever they want. So, so anarchy literally means without a ruler or no ruler. Right. And so political anarchy says, yeah, right. Everyone in a community organizes together

and makes decisions together. And that's really hard to do. But a lot of people assume because you've grown up, we've grown up in a world where, you know, even in a representative democracy, we have people who are in charge. We have abdicated the responsibility to making, you know, important cultural and societal decisions to the small handful of people. What if they go away? What will happen? It will be anarchy. Yeah, literally will be anarchy,

but it can be chaos if you don't stand up and organize and take the reins, right? As a community. Right. That idea of it being chaos is kind of like if you're not telling people what to do, then they'll be mean and behave poorly and in bad faith. Yeah. And relationship anarchy is like, we all have the capacity to work for our own and collective wellbeing. If we work together in good faith, in honesty and, you know, transparency, then

it's not chaos. Then it is, it's just self-management. We're just taking care of ourselves any other. And I think people, individuals acting in bad faith in an anarchy context will quickly be found out. I don't know if you're aware of the, the quote by J.R.R. Tolkien about anarchy, political anarchy. But I just, I wanted to read it because I really enjoy it

because some of his humor in there. My political opinions lean more and more to anarchy philosophically understood meaning abolition of control, not whiskered men with bombs or to unconstitutional monarchy. So he's even kind of calling out this, you know, idea that like people think anarchy is just people running around throwing bombs and causing chaos. And that's not, that's

not what it was. And that's not really what it ever has been. I think there can be what you mentioned is not chaos, but there can be relationship chaos and you can act in a way that is chaotic. Sure. And it's, it totally relies on your skill at negotiating and navigating relationship complexity. It is not simple. Yeah, I would say like, and the more relationships

you have, the more complex it can get. The more connections, the more conversation. So another and we kind of touched on this already before, but an assumption that people might have about a relationship anarchist. And I think again, this mainly comes up in the dating scene is that they're selfish, that they're completely self-obsessed, self-focused at the, you know, the detriment of anyone else in their life. Like they're not going to

take care of the other people in their relationships. And I think that's a pretty easy one to challenge. I mean, it sounds like you defined like a narcissist or something. Sure. I mean, I think that's a person. That's the stigma. I think, Oh, that like, if you're a relationship anarchist, you must be some kind of narcissist. You must only care about yourself. Yeah. Well, that's the chaos version of anarchy. Yeah. About the not caring about the consequences.

Every person for themselves get what's good for me at the expense of others. So I think

it might be fun. What we kind of often do in this podcast is relate it to something from our lives. So I'll talk just briefly about how I realized relationship anarchy was something that in a lot of ways does apply to me and the way I do live my life. You know, I was going into a period where I was like, okay, I'm going to start dating. I got on the apps and when I was trying to describe how my life worked and how it appeared, that

would be helpful for other people to understand. I came across the term relationship anarchy. And I even think that, I mean, this was not that long ago. The first few times I tried describing it would sound a lot more like the what relationship anarchy is not part of our discussion versus what it actually is. So that was before I had done a whole lot of research and reading on it. But a lot of things did inherently line up for me. It's

not like I now had a guidebook because I found the right word. It was more that it felt validating to me that the direction I had been kind of trending towards of, you know, being more intentional and examining my motives and examining the baggage that comes with certain terms. A lot of the stuff that you've been talking about, those things just, I was doing them

and didn't even realize there was a whole word for it, you know? And we, I'm kind of glossing over the fact that like I do have a family that a lot of people would consider and that looks like kitchen table probably because I'm very enmeshed with you and Nova and Sunny and Stevie and we kind of have this family, you know, polycule unit, you know?

And I would still challenge people to be open to the possibility that I can be part of a kitchen table situation and a solo polyamorous relationship anarchist by day and part of the family man by night. Like I think those things aren't mutually exclusive and I mean that's a whole nother episode in itself. But I do really like that I didn't find out the term and then try to model myself after it. I just realized that I was already doing it.

Yeah that's interesting and you threw a lot of terms. You know, I hear Reed, a lot of people talk about I'm solo poly, I'm kitchen table poly, I'm parallel poly. What is all that? I think relationship anarchy would challenge you to look at all of those labels and say you can be all of those or none of those. And by the way let's even define those because I think a lot of people, I've ever even heard debates about kitchen table poly where it's

like I have to be best friends with my metamora for kitchen table and it's like what? Part of that says that and maybe that's your definition but that's not my definition. Talking about labels I think in the framework or the value structure of relationship anarchy they would just say yeah just be upfront about that and talk about that. But you can also hang around the kitchen table with those people. Exactly. Like I think relationship anarchy would totally

be cool with me becoming more or less enmeshed like as we both decide is good for us. Yeah I think you're exhibiting the values of relationship anarchy fairly well. It's interesting we talk about what is relationship anarchy but it really, I don't even know, I thought of the word framework and I don't even know if it's a framework but it is, I like the idea of

like a value structure or a value proposition. Like these are the things that relationship anarchists value but there aren't any like injunctions to do certain things or behave in a certain way beyond examine the power structures in your life and break down the assumptions about labels and make a community that is you know non-hierarchical and all

works together. Have no ruler in your relationship. Power to the people. Yeah exactly. Because you can totally be polyamorous and be on relationship escalators and do all these other things that the current culture and social structure is totally fine with. You might even adopt them out of self-defense. Being like see we're not too weird. Yeah oh that's an interesting point. I'm glad you brought that up. Kind of raising your hand up and being like hey

I want the thing that I do to be totally normal in relationship anarchy. He's like no no no you should walk away from all of that and build a new thing from scratch. And when you do that you end up in that liminal space where you feel like an outcast and you feel like you have no home and you feel it's demoralizing. Yeah it can be tough to struggle against that. Yeah but that's good. So when you have already have kind of a community like you said you

do that's a good place to start. If you can get the people in your pre-existing community on board then you're in that space together and that's always it's always easier to face that kind of unknown with friends. When you're a kid and you go down into the dark basement it's better to take a friend down there with you. If you go down there by yourself there's

like ghosts or something and you run back upstairs. I do find personal fulfillment in the resistance by existing of the like finding that going down that dark scary path because it's worth you know being an example of the thing that feels right to me. It's not the you know the socially acceptable path really but it feels more authentic. Yeah and I think Relationship Anarchy does hold a lot of space and a lot of welcome energy for that kind

of thing. And on that note. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us Elliot. You're welcome thanks for having me. I had a fantastic conversation with you today. Me too. And hopefully we'll hear from you again soon. I hope so too. Well I'm not gonna just sit here like this I'm gonna feel like I'm in class. And the teacher's not calling on you.