Rebekah Simon-Peter: Believe Like Jesus

Music. Of the things Jesus believed was in his unity with God, his partnership with God.

And so we are called to have that understanding that at the depth, we are one with God. There is no separation. There is no separation. And out of that deep, intimate interconnectedness, the Trinitarian dance, if you will, of which we are part again and again, we're part of that. If we would actually believe that and live like that, we would have the move of God with us all the time.

I'm not saying God's just going to do our will. I'm saying we would be operating with God to accomplish much greater things than we think we can do. Music.

Let me welcome you to Mindful Leader. This is Dennis Shaw, and I am the host of this particular podcast. I'm a retired elder in the Mountain Sky Conference of the United Methodist Church, and our focus here is leadership development. You don't have to be a Methodist, and you don't have to be a member of the Mountain Sky Conference to hopefully find some nuggets, some kernels of information that you could use here. It's focused on both laity and clergy.

My guest today is Rebecca Simon-Peter. She is also an elder in the Mountain Sky Conference of the United Methodist Church. And we're going to discuss a book from her scheduled for release on November the 4th, 2024. The title of it is Believe Like Jesus. I'll have some information about it for you in the show notes. Our coming shows include Ryan Cannaday, who is going to talk to us about his ministry in Highlands Ranch, Colorado, called Free Recovery.

That will be scheduled for release on November the 18th. And then on December the 2nd, I'm going to talk to Al Strauss, the pastor, Pastor Al Strauss, Reverend Al Strauss. And I'm going to talk to him about his remarks at annual conference last June, where he gave a little going away speech and he wants to talk a little bit about some of the things that were embedded in that.

If you have some ideas for what might be included in a potential future Mindful Leader broadcast, podcast, don't hesitate to send me a note. Dennis, D-E-N-N-I-S, at Mantuan, M-A-N-T-U-A-N dot org. I'll have that shown also in the show notes. Rebecca Simon-Peter is in ministry through Rebecca Simon-Peter Coaching and Consulting, Incorporated. The primary two things that I'm aware of that she does through that is a program

for helping churches called Creating a Culture of Renewal. It's a three-year program where she tries to help transform local churches. She's also a noted author, and I'll get into some of those books when we sit down and talk with her. I have included some outtakes, some startovers again at the end. So after I say goodbye to Rebecca, you may hear a little bit of silence, and then you'll hear some music, and then you'll hear some of the outtakes if you want to listen to them.

When the music stops, the outtakes are done. Again, this is Dennis Shaw. This is Mindful Leader. And thank you for being here with us today. God bless you. Music.

Let me welcome you back again. This is Mindful Leader. This is Dennis Shaw, and I didn't go anywhere. And I would like to welcome now more formally, here present with me, looking at me on Zoom, is my friend Rebecca Simon-Peter. Good morning, Rebecca. Good to see you. Good to see you, Dennis. Thanks so much for the opportunity to be here. I am looking forward to this with great anticipation. I think it's a God moment you're here.

Rebecca is an elder in the Mountain Sky Conference of the United Methodist Church, and her ministry is both this contributing to the written material that we understand, how we understand Jesus, and I teased her earlier about her sort of her Monday through Friday, 365 a day, year ministry, is creating a culture of renewal, which is focusing on both laity and clergy at the local church, renewing them. Rebecca has experience at the local church.

She has been a pastor of the local church, so she doesn't talk to this stuff in some kind of abstraction. She's talking at times from her grounded experience. She's the author of seven books. This is number seven we're going to talk about here, which is Believing Like Jesus, and they include a Green Church, which includes a workbook and seven steps about how to grow a Green Church, that you named Jesus, which is the one I'm personally most familiar with.

Dream Like Jesus, Forging a New Path, and this most recent one, Believe Like Jesus. Did I forget anything there, Rebecca? That's pretty good. Okay. Anything I forgot in the intro that you wish I'd said? Well, I did serve for 12 years, and I got burned out, and I asked God for a new call.

Because I knew I didn't call myself into the ministry, so I didn't feel comfortable calling myself out of the ministry. That's a great line. Yeah, God gave me a new call, which was to help shape larger conversations in the church. So for the last 19 years now, that's what I've been doing. We're going to talk about your new book that's going to come out, which is Believe Like Jesus. And I have put in my order with Amazon, and it's going to get here at some point.

And I want to talk a little bit about that book specifically. I guess where I want to start with that is books often start with some kind of aha moment or some level of inspiration that you, that particularly books like this, which are about leadership, which you say, I think I want to share something here with other people besides just this being isolated to myself and a small community. So what was the inspiration for this book for you? Such a great question, Dennis. Thank you.

Well, two inspirations. One, it's really designed to be a sequel for Dream Like Jesus, which came out in 2019. And then I was starting on the next book in 2020, I started, and then this little thing called The Pandemic came along. And so I wrote Forging a New Path, which was really about how to move forward post-pandemic. So then it was time to come back to this church, excuse me, this book. I still call my office the church. I tell my husband, hey, I'm going to the

church. He's like, really? No, I'm going to the office. Well, I can relate. I'm a musician. And to me, right now, church for me is Monday night when I go to rehearsals with the choir I'm in. That's church. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Well, the book is called Believe Like Jesus, Rising from Faith in Jesus to the Faith of Jesus. And it's really an exploration of,

advancing from discipleship to apostleship. So it's not just for leaders, it's for anybody who calls themselves a Christian or thinks of themselves as a Christian. And when I really trace it all the way back, where did this book come from?

It came from my days as a single pastor. Dennis, I've been married for a couple of years and divorced and then got this call from Jesus and entered into the church. And as a single pastor, I went on a certain number of dates. And I got to tell you, they were weird. They were weird, Dennis. I got, you know, one guy wanted to ask me. I hope none of your dates are listening to this podcast. So, yeah. Well, one of them asked me, you know, how do I get back with my old girlfriend?

One just wanted to talk about a Bible study. One blah, blah, blah. But this one guy I went on a date with said to me, do you think I'm an apostle? That's a good question. I mean, what a question, especially on a date. And I'm thinking, do I think you're an apostle? I was still honestly pretty new to the faith. I wasn't even 100% sure what an apostle was. Plus, the guy was Catholic, and he was a postman. He was just a regular guy. He wasn't a pastor or anything.

And I really had to wrestle with that question, do I think you're an apostle? And so it really got me diving deep. What is an apostle? What is a disciple, really? And I've been on this journey of discovery for about 24, 5 years since that guy, a long time ago. In Rollins, Wyoming asked me that question. And yeah. And you know what I really, so that's what got it started. And I, and I really, you know, I had, I had to supply an answer in the moment.

I was like, I'm not really sure, but he was somebody that when I really looked at his life, I thought, you know, I think this guy is an apostle because he was always not, I mean, he was a postman. So he was carrying messages, right. He was a letter carrier, but he carried a message of real hope and inspiration because he was a guy who had gotten off drugs and alcohol after many, many years. And he carried the message of hope, of recovery to other people. And he was a real light to people.

And so he helped people see something within themselves they could not see before. And I think about the apostles of old, they performed miracles, right? They helped spread the word, they performed miracles. And I've watched this guy over the years because I now happen to live with him. We are married. Oh, wonderful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. I didn't know that was his story. I've met him 10, 15 times, a delightful soul.

Delightful soul. And he was the guy that first introduced me to the word apostle. So that's, you know, what I've been thinking about ever since is, what is apostleship? Who is it for? And so that's what this book is about. So basically, it's a culmination of 25 years of thinking about it.

25 years, yes. And actually living with, I've come to the conclusion, yes, My husband, Jerry Gonzalez, is an apostle, so I've been living with one for 25 years, and that's helped my study of the Bible and to just really think about what does that mean. So I have a lot of thoughts about it, which is what the book is about.

I have not read the book, I confess, but I saw the indicators of why I might want to buy this book, and I have bought the book, but it looked like to me there was a shaping of the outside on the themes that related to sort of global topics of war, poverty. Those kinds of things. But I have the perception that there is a more localized impact to this. So how did those global themes help shape the message that you were felt called to talk about?

Well, I think for Christians, it's always important to not only look within to the spirit within and to our faith, however personal and dynamic it is, that we have to look at the world we live in because we're living in this world. We are human beings. We're spiritual beings having a human experience. Right. I love that. Yeah. And we're in the world. So like, what do we do with our faith? It's not really enough just to like go to church.

It doesn't, you know, I've learned over the years that low impact exercise is good, but it's really the high impact exercise that helps ward off the big things like osteoporosis and disease and things like that. So we have to have high impact faith, not just low impact faith, and actually exercise our faith because we are so much more. Imbued with faith, then we really know. And I think that's what Jesus was saying to his people, his people who he called as apostles.

The first step of the journey was to be disciples, to follow him for one purpose, not just to follow him, but so they could learn from him so he could teach them how to do the very things he did. He wanted to duplicate himself in them. And he tells us that in the scriptures over and over and over. And he even says, look, greater things than I'm doing shall you do. So he talked with them about their faith. He said, it's not big enough. It's not strong enough. It's not persistent enough.

It's not hardy enough. I'm telling you, if you guys really dig in and you really commit to these beliefs, you can do the equivalent of moving mountains. You can pull up mulberry trees and cast them into the sea. All this stuff that looks immovable to the outside world, all this stuff that looks immovable, bigger than we are, nothing we can do about it, you can have an impact on anything and everything if you will but deepen your faith and have it be almost immovable, unstoppable.

You're going to be able to move things that look immovable around you.

As you're saying that, I think back to the movie with Amazing Grace, which is really the story of William Wilberforce and how he was able over about a 10-12 year period to eliminate slavery in the United Kingdom. He started off with the idea of everybody thinking he was crazy and nuts and he wouldn't be able to get there from here. And by the time he got to the end, he had successfully done it. Every great thing that happens in the world is done by humans. Yeah.

And with the move of God, and what I write about in Believe Like Jesus is that we're actually, I write about the five beliefs of Jesus, five of his beliefs, and how we can believe like that, not just believe in him, but believe like him. And one of the things Jesus believed was in his unity with God, his partnership with God. And so we are called to have that understanding that at the depth, we are one with God. There is no separation.

There is no separation. And out of that deep, intimate interconnectedness, the Trinitarian dance, if you will, of which we are part again and again, we're part of that. If we would actually believe that and live like that, we would have the move of God with us all the time. I'm not saying God's just going to do our will. I'm saying we would be operating with God to accomplish much greater things than we think we can do.

Well, as you say that, you're reminding me of the words of the communion, Great Thanksgiving, which is that very last section before we go to the Lord's Prayer, where we talk about this idea of being one with the Spirit, one with each other. It's an ode to unity. It's very much of an ode to unity. And I wonder how many people, as we as pastors or as pastors lead that, I wonder what's going through their mind as we say that, as we offer those words.

I've come to the belief that we're not separate from God and that humanity and divinity are inseparable. In Jesus, they were inseparable and fully human, fully divine. And I've come to this seemingly heretical, but not actually, conclusion that we too are that. The soul within us is actually bigger than the body that houses the soul. I've actually come to see the soul as housing the body rather than the body housing the soul.

Okay, that's two I'm going to steal. You know, I got low impact versus high impact, and this body's housed within the soul. I like that. Yeah, and so we are fully both, but we only tend to recognize the humanity in us. And through its imperfections, think something is wrong with us, or that God is not pleased with us, or that we're not loved, or there's some separation, like I got to get God in my heart.

Well, I see that we are actually in God, because if there is no place we can go that God is not, as the Psalms tell us, as far as the East is from, if there's no place we can go that God is not, we are immersed in God. I think it's a willingness to open up to the God consciousness within us. And all of this I found in the Bible. It sort of sounds like it's not Christian, is it? It may not be taught, but that's because we don't really talk about apostleship.

And this book is inviting us to advance from discipleship into apostleship because Jesus only called disciples in order for them to become apostles. As you were saying that, I was listening and my mind was going to that passage. I think it's out of 1 John, which is, that which is in you is greater than that which is in the world. to me that's reinforcement of what you were saying which is the fact that there's something of God inside of us and if God is infinitely large.

Then you can't. We're not bigger than God. Yeah, we're not bigger than God. And by the way, what's inside of us is infinitely large as well, because it's by definition infinite. So, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. This is rich. Yeah, I've come to see that inseparability of humanity and divinity. And so it's really about retuning our senses. And so my premise is that as we pay attention to what Jesus believed and begin to believe like that, we will expand our God consciousness.

Now, why believe like Jesus? I'll tell you. Well, thank you for asking, Dennis. I'll tell you why I think that. Because if the apostles, disciples slash apostles, did the things that Jesus did, and we have the evidence that they did in the scriptures, you know, we find out that they cast out demons. In fact, He sent them out, go ahead of me, cast out demons, preach the kingdom, etc., etc. So these were miraculous things in his day.

There's no way they could have done those things, far from Jesus, simply by believing in Jesus. They actually had to believe like Jesus. And we see instances of Jesus teaching them, now here's the proper way to deepen the faith. Here's the proper way to approach things. This one only comes out by prayer. He was teaching. He was correcting. Sometimes the disciples come off as doofuses, but I think they were anything but.

I think that they were apostles in the making. He was teaching them not only to sort of go where he went, but to believe like he believed so they could do like he did. Would it be a fair—I mean, going back to your husband's question and what you're dealing with now—would it be a fair statement that moving from discipleship to apostleship is moving from being a student to being a person in action to being sent out? Is that a fair? Very fair.

Very fair. Yeah, it's going from being a follower or an apprentice or a student, somebody sort of trailing behind, taking good notes, but trailing behind, then being willing and that discipulus, student, to being an apostle, which comes from the Greek. Discipulus comes from the Latin. Apostolos comes from the Greek. They sound alike, but they're different. And the apostle is then one who is sent. So they're sent on behalf. So here's news.

Everybody who is sent on behalf of another, an ambassador, is an apostle. So who falls into that category? Well, let's see, district superintendents represent the bishop, okay? So they are, in a sense, apostles of the bishop. Those who are to carry out the work of in the name of someone else, but with freedom and creativity to carry out that work, those are apostles. In fact, every time we pray in Jesus's name, Dennis. Here's a new thought I had. Every time we pray in Jesus's name,

we are declaring ourselves to be apostles because we're doing it in his name. We're doing it, right? We're doing the prayer, we're doing the actions, but we're doing it in his name. That's apostolic. Well, in the book, I identified the five A's of apostleship. So there's the five beliefs of Jesus, but then there are the five A's of apostleship. And these are sort of the qualities that apostles have, and apostles are anointed. They are appointed, that does not mean by a bishop, by the way,

or a district superintendent. They are authorized, they are accountable, and they are ambassadors of the kingdom. And all of those imply agency. So we're a disciple sort of waiting on the nod from the teacher. Okay, go ahead. You know, here, I hope you got this in your notes. The apostle is one who has been anointed, is appointed to the work, is authorized to go and do, and is accountable. And not just accountable like, oh, the buck stops with me, I'm responsible.

But accountable for developing their own greatness and the greatness of those around them, just as Jesus did. And then ambassadors, people who are speaking on behalf of representing in the world, one who sent them. I like those five. No, Dream Like Jesus is all about accountability. In that book, I'm writing about how, you know, we're really good at stewarding buildings. This is Lena. Do you like? we're good at stewarding buildings. We're really good at stewarding budgets.

But we have forgotten that what we're primarily called to steward is Jesus's big dream, which is thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And so there's an invitation for us to dream like Jesus. And if we were dreaming like that, if we really saw ourselves as accountable to his dream and not these artifacts, budgets, buildings, etc., then I don't think the church would be in decline.

It's interesting you say that about the buildings. I mean, you had a larger thing that you mentioned, but Al Strauss is going to be my next guest. It's unusual that I have the next guest already recorded before this one, but he's going to talk a little bit about the stewardship of buildings and how in our stewardship of buildings, we've lost our way. We were a little overly focused on buildings and not enough focused on the mission of go make, baptize, teach.

And he's a... Well, frankly, buildings are easier than Jesus's big dream. They require less risk. Ooh, ooh, ooh, a tidbit, another tidbit. Well, and it is. I'm not saying it's easy to afford buildings, but it's tangible. It's easy. Everybody understands upkeep of a building. But when we have to dream like Jesus, when we're called to that, there's risk involved with that.

But studies show the reason churches are in decline is that they lack a vision, a big, bold, Jesus-like dream. So what I realized in writing that book is, all right, well, in order to actually feel that we have the authority to dream like that, we actually have to advance from discipleship to apostleship. That's why this book is a seat. And of course, you and I have had a bishop stand over us and say, take the authority. Take thou authority.

Right. Yeah. And I think one of the things we as pastors and lay leaders need to do is to encourage people to take the authority that they've got. Sounds like to me that after I get through reading Believe Like Jesus, I need to get on there and order Dreamlike, Dreamlike Jesus. Yes. Yeah, I think you'll really enjoy it. Sounds good. We're Wesleyans. You and I are followers of this guy who lived a long time ago named John Wesley.

Yeah. And one of the things that Wesley believed in was this fact of the church is not the church unless the church is taking its mission out into the world. Mm-hmm.

Making contact i mean i think one of the things i try to remember about wesley is is that two or three times a month he would visit the insane asylums and in urban and rural england i can't imagine and the miners and he was everywhere can't imagine what that was like you know wow I'm uncomfortable it must have made him but he went, you know what I like about Wesley was so authentic and he was so gutsy and he was so bold he didn't just say okay you people ought to go do this

that and the other he did it and people wanted to follow what he was doing yeah I'm retired military and one of the things that we're coached and trying to do is as developmental leaders in the military is that you should be very cautious about trying to ask people to do something you won't do yourself so totally it's imperative it's imperative. Rebecca, this has been delightful. This has been absolutely delightful.

Is there anything in our conversation that I didn't cover that I should have covered? Or is there a question I didn't ask that you wish I had asked? Any of that? Just a few more things. It's my program, Creating a Culture of Renewal. Absolutely. Community of fellow learner leaders learning together. And we take them through three big steps. And the third step is advancing from discipleship to apostleship.

And what they come to find is that when they have that mindset, they can do things they did not think they could do. And it's been so exciting to be part of over 500 new visions being launched into the world because people got a glimpse of what it means to be an apostle. And so I'm just stoked about the reality of what it looks like when people actually live this way. And I just want to tell people it's not out of reach. It's not out of reach. Jesus never would have called us to do it.

And the scriptures would not have recorded it if it was not something for us to step into. Before Rebecca and I started, we talked a little bit about inviting her back, and I'm going to do that. I'm going to invite her back sometime over the winter, and we'll talk a little bit about creating a culture of renewal. You can understand what she's doing and how she's doing it and why she's doing it.

How they can take tidbits and apply it themselves in their churches. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Rebecca, this has been very, very stimulating. And for those of you, I didn't tell everybody in the group this, but I had Rebecca's name on my list to call and talk to her about potentially being a guest on Mindful Leader. And all of a sudden I get this note from Rebecca talking about her book, and we had this chit-chat back and forth.

And this podcast today is a result of that dialogue, and I consider this to be a God moment. So I'm glad you responded to God's call to reach out and talk to me. And I certainly enjoyed talking to you. So thank you very, very much. Thank you, Dennis. It's been such a pleasure. This is Dennis Shaw. You've been listening to Mindful Leader. And this is our hope that the information and things we discussed here are applicable and helpful to you in being an apostle for Jesus Christ in the world.

Peace truly be with you. Thank you very much. Music. Last Wednesday, eight days ago, I was in Chattanooga, Tennessee, at a Museum of Modern Art conversation. It was Graffiti as Art, was what it was. And I had on my Celtic cross. And it was amazing the number of people that came over and wanted to talk to me about that cross. And what was I doing? What did I do? And I saw that as apostolic moments.

It was a statement of where my having been sent out, I was sort of saying to people, i've been sent out and they want to come over and talk to me they want to come over and talk to me about it and i i the one quote that was interesting because i used a quote i can't remember the source of it but it had to do with solitude loneliness that solitude is the richness of self loneliness is the poverty of self and and i think i think there's a fine line

between being poor and being rich yeah i think part of how is an attitude how you look at it and that was what i ended up talking about with a number of people mainly after i did it the first time it was at their invitation, and i mean this one guy works at volkswagen there in chattanooga he called me over and said come tell my come tell my co-worker what you said of blah blah blah and i've and i just thought those were apostolic moments as it goes to

the center yeah in fact oh no you go ahead you go ahead. Music. Opinion for whatever it's worth. I think to some extent, laity and clergy, we've lost the handle on accountability. We've lost that handle. And I perceive at times nobody wants to be accountable. And that's not a gospel I necessarily recognize. I think there is accountability embedded in the gospel.

So yeah, for whatever that's worth. Music.

One is going to follow you as al strauss and al is going to talk my next podcast whenever that is sometime in november it's going to be about that what you were phasing to discussing there that we we do we do a darn good job of trying to steward our buildings and we lose we lose focus of what our real mission is which isn't the building it's about making the reign of god a little larger in the world so yeah did i lose you oh my god yep did i lose you yeah apparently yeah but

i heard about al strauss is going to be your next guest yeah we will we'll see uh that that's excellent Let me start over again. Okay. Music.

One of those things I'm going to have to edit out, I had a great follow-on thought, and I can't think of what it is. It'll come to you. Oh, I know what it was. Okay. Music.