S2E71 KELLI MARRUFO and LINDA PEVAC (aka Emma Stevens)

Hey there, it's Melissa Brunetti. And welcome to the. Mind your own Karma podcast. Hey. There Karma crew, thanks for joining me on another episode of Mind Your Own, Karma, The Adoption Chronicles. Today I have two guests for you to adopt these. One is a return guest. She is an. Author and been on. Mind your own karma a few times already, but first we are going to hear from Kelly Marufo. Kelly was the product of a prearranged adoption through a local church and her biological

mother's doctor. Her adoptive parents waited for notification of her birth and brought her home at 3 days. Old she had a happy. Life and she says her adoptive mom was the absolute best woman ever. Unfortunately, since her adoptive mother's death, she no longer has a relationship with her adoptive father. And at this time. Does not have any communication with him. She says she does have an amazing relationship with her biological father and his side

of the family. Not so much with her biological mother, who after a rocky reunion she has no contact with. Now, as many of us adoptees can relate, Kelly has a celebrity adoptee for a cousin that joins us later in the episode. Everyone in the adoptee community knows her as Emma Stevens and now Linda Pivak. She is the author of The Gathering Place and Adoptee Story and a Fire is Coming.

Emma discusses why she decided to recently reveal her real name Linda Peavak and why she used a pseudonym in the 1st place. Here is my interview with Kelly Marufo and Emma Stevens AKA Linda Peavak. So we are welcoming Kelly to the show today. Hi, Kelly. Thanks for being a guest today. Hi, thanks for having me. Yeah. So I like to jump right into the story and tell us what you know about why you. Were put up for adoption. My biological mother was 17,

junior in high school. My biological dad was 18, getting ready to go to Vietnam, just graduating. So it was the typical 1968 send mom to aunt's house, hide her away and put the baby up for adoption. That's what happened. So there was no talk of those two getting married or? Anything like that, I was. The biological dad actually drove her to Mexico and to be married before he left, and she decided she didn't want to do that. That wasn't her path in life.

So why did your adoptive parents decide to adopt? My mother couldn't have children for some reason. She was a very private lady when it came to personal things, very oldfashioned, so she never did explain to me why she. Couldn't have children. But she couldn't, and so they set out for adoption in 1966. They went through the church and the met the doctor and were on the list.

And then in 19. 67 A boy was born and were going to be born, and they thought about doing that, and then they chose not to, and their best friends were also on the adoption list. So they took the boy and waited for another year, to 1968, and chose to go with my biological mother's child, whatever it may be. I guess in those days they probably didn't know if it was a boy or a girl.

But they chose to wait for until 1968 and then when my biological mother became pregnant, they went basically through the pregnancy, through the church, through the hospital, the whole 9 yards. The doctors made sure everything was good and brought me home at three days old. So they knew your biological mother. They had married. They did. It was. My first name. My first name. They never knew last names, either one, but they knew first names.

Came to find out years later that my biological mother always knew where I was and made my mother very nervous at times where she would show up and they knew each other from facial, you know, recognition. And she would show up and make my mother very nervous. So did you guys live in the same town then? We did. Oh, wow. Yeah, we were all in Laguna Niguel. So your your biological mom would just show up at random places or to your house or what? Not at the house, but in Laguna Niguel.

In Laguna Beach there's like Festival the arts and the Sawdust Festival, big festivals and she would randomly show up at those places when she. Knew that they were going to be there somehow. So pop in different places. My mom never really knew how she knew, but she knew. Wow. Yeah, that would be a little unnerving. So did you always know you were adopted? I found out when I was 8 years old I had asked my mom. How babies were born.

When all that subject came up and she explained to me at that point in time, she figured I was old enough to know that I was adopted and that she didn't birth me, but I was her daughter, no ifs, ands or buts. So I found out I was adopted, which I think at 8:00 I kind of just blew off. I didn't really, I don't know, it didn't really affect me. I didn't really understand it. But as I got older, unfortunately used it against my mom.

In mean ways at times, you know, you're not my mom, you're not this, you're not that, Which was horrible and I regretted for a long time, but I don't. Other than that, I don't think it really ever sank in. Until I was older, when my biological mom sent my dad, my adopted dad was a police officer in Laguna Beach and then became a police officer in Grover Beach. So we moved in Pismo Beach area.

Moved and she always somehow knew where we were and she sent a letter when I was 18 and wanted to meet me. And at that time when my parents asked me if I wanted to meet her and let me read her letter, I said no. Because by that time I felt really horrible about all the times I had used her against my mom and said no, no no, no. I have my I have my family. My mom then talked me into meeting her and said it's okay. So they were very supportive of

the whole introduction thing. She actually came up to Grover Beach to meet me. We met, We were talked for hours. I went to visit her in Laguna. At one point in time I was going to move to Laguna to live with her. It was a good relationship in the beginning. And then she chose, right before I was getting ready to move in with her that she decided she didn't want to do that and called my parents and told them

to tell me that I couldn't come. And so after that it's just always been a strained relationship since then and I was 19 I think at that time, so. Yeah. So how did that feel? Just like another rejection all over again, like. Yeah, another abandonment. Yeah. So, which is something that I struggle with for sure, you know, over the years, is fear of abandonment. Sure. Is a big one. Yeah. So how was it with your adoptive parents growing up? Did you have a great experience with that?

I did, I did. They were great parents, you know. I just have no complaints about my childhood. They were just awesome. They absolutely wanted me, cherish me, never treated me like I was adopted. They were always, you know, my parents for sure. My mom passed away about 18 years ago and my dad remarried and that. Broke our relationship and unfortunately so we no longer communicate. And he has said things to my relatives that I'm adopted. I'm not his anyway, so I don't

know if he always felt that way. I didn't feel that he felt that way, but he feels that way. So sadly, my mother never you know felt that way. I have a stepson and she treated my stepson like he. That was her grandchild as well, you know. She was never the person who treated anyone differently for being adopted or, you know, step or half or anything. She was always very welcoming to everyone. Yeah. That had to be tough, yeah. Do you have any?

Did you have any siblings growing up in the adoptive family? None my I had no siblings in my adopted family. I have no siblings in my DNA family. The good thing that happened with my biological mom was I met my biological father through her and my dad. My adopted dad actually had to call him and say it's okay to meet her because he said no, he didn't want to do that. They gave us up for adopt or gave me up for adoption and and he didn't want to intrude.

So my dad actually called him and talked him into coming and meeting me and it's been just an amazing relationship. His whole family they have. Become our family, you know? Never. It feels like we were never without them, really, or I was never without them. They're just amazing, amazing people. So. Do they live by you? They live in Laguna. And they never had any kids. No, so my biological mother. I think personality wise probably chose not to have children.

She married a man who was older than her, very wealthy. My biological dad when he was in Vietnam was injured severely with shrapnel and and I had malaria and so he actually with his marriage, first marriage ended because they couldn't have children and he never went and got tested because he thought I have a child, it's not me. And he finally went and got tested and they said that the malaria made him sterile, so he was unable to have children after Vietnam. So it's just me. Wow.

So what was it like growing up knowing you're adopted, looking back to you see, besides, like, what you were talking about your mom and how you kind of, you know, used your adoption with her? Did you see any other ways that adoption is affected you growing up even as like a teenager and then even into adulthood? How do you see adoption affecting you? You know, I think it's just really the common things that all of us adoptees feel.

You know, strangely enough, I looked like my adoptive dad enough to where people just thought I look like him. We have the brown eyes and the brown hair, and it's very odd because. Him and my biological dad resemble each other. It's kind of eerie, but they do resemble each other. So I didn't have that. But my mom was tiny. She was 4 foot 11. I'm 5 foot eight. She was blonde, green eyed. We look nothing alike, you know? And so it was odd, you know, people. It was just clear that she

obviously wasn't my mom. We had no similarities whatsoever. Our personality is nothing. She was amazing, but we were nothing alike. So just the common, I think, adoptee stuff of I don't look like anybody. We don't have the same interests, you know? I wanted to be this outgoing kid and my parents were very much homebodies. We traveled once a year to Kansas to visit family. But they didn't, you know, we weren't bike riders, We weren't

sports players. And I so badly wanted to be that person, but that just wasn't in their DNA. And it's very much in my DNA. Our family's very active, very outgoing, not shy into sports, you know, So it was that was different, you know, doing, being that person that was so different from her parents. Was it interesting to see that mirroring in certain ways that you had no idea like where you got this or that from, or even personality traits?

And even because I noticed with my reunions that, like with my sisters, even I talk kind of the same. Some of our mannerisms are the same. Those kind of things were kind of shocking to see. How did you feel? Did you see any of that mirroring with your biological? My biological dad and I are. It's just identical, really. The mannerisms more than anything. We are very much alike, which is so odd because we didn't grow up, you know, I didn't grow up with him. I met him when I was 1819.

And and even now we get together, our sense of humor is alike. Our everything that we do, we look alike. You know, we all have the nose. Everybody has the nose. It's just very. It's it's very cool now to get with my cousins and be like oh I do that you know, I mean it's been many, many years now so but in the beginning it was just it was really cool to learn things and know things and get to know everyone.

And I was fortunate enough to get to know my grandma Denny who is my biological dad's mom and I got to stay with her while she was ill stay the night with her and. Really get to know her and you know it's just and we were a lot alike. We have the same fingers and same fingernails and and that was really cool. So it's been a really great journey with the biological father's side. So there's.

It's funny how you see, I think biological families take those little things for granted, but we're like looking for all those little things, those little, you know, like you were saying the fingernails and stuff. We like, notice those things right away. Yeah. So how did you find your biological dad? So my biological mom came to find me and then she got in touch with him and said she wants to meet you.

And so it's an odd story. I mean, it starts way back when the Doctor Who delivered me was my doctor, a pediatrician, and his name was Doctor Roper, and he was just. Such a great doctor, but his nurse was my grandma, Denny, my biological grandma. So she got to watch me grow up. She knew who I was from the records. She knew who I was and she couldn't say anything. She told one of my aunts, the oldest aunt, as I was growing up. So she got to watch me.

She got to see me have my shots and grow up and all my checkups and everything. So she knew what I look like and how I grew up, and then my. Biological dad, oddly enough, was a police officer as well, and he went to work for Laguna Beach Police Department right before my adopted dad became the chief and Grover before we moved. And my adopted dad actually sat on the oral board while my biological dad was being interviewed, not knowing who the

other one was. So he had become a police officer in Laguna and the police chief. It was my adoptive dad's best friend and I called him uncle the whole time I was growing up. When my adoptive dad called my biological dad, I don't know if this is getting confusing. Called my biological dad, said she wants to meet you. He said give me some time and he went to the police chief, my uncle, and said I have this issue. I don't know what to do. I need to speak with somebody.

And so he started to explain, you know, in 1968, we gave up a little girl. Now she wants to meet me. She lives up north. And my uncle stopped him and said you're Kelly Brown's dad, because we look so much alike. He just knew who he was talking about. And so he helped to talk him into, you know, getting to know me, which is, you know, such a blessing because it's been such

a great relationship. So it's just there's a lot of ins and outs, I guess because we were in a small town, there was a lot of small town coincidences, you know, a lot of things that happened that brought us all together. So that was really nice. You you you told me in an e-mail that we have a lot in common in our stories. And I have to tell you my biological father was a police officer too. Isn't that funny that? Is crazy. Yeah. Usually there were differences too, but there were

similarities. You know, I just, as I listened to your story, I was like, oh, yeah, yeah. Crazy. So let's talk about the fog for a minute. Do you ever, do you use that word? Were you ever in the fog? Are you still in it? I think you're out. You know, I've never really used it. I've learned that from. Emma's books and your story and listening to more adoptee stuff. So I've never used the word, but I completely understand it. I was definitely in it for many,

many years. I'm not in it anymore. I just. I am me. I am who I am. I, you know, I'm who I want to be without any hesitation. So it's definitely something I understand. For sure. How did that show up? How did what did the fog look like for you? I don't know. I think in all the same ways it does for everybody else, you know, that's adopted. It's just such a common thread that we all share, you know, in life.

I think you know it's. It's funny too because the closest friends I've had, I've again not like your story. I didn't have a lot of. Friends. I was kind of a loner, kind of, you know, doing my own thing. The, the very two close friends I have were both adopted. And we didn't become friends because we were adopted. I think that it's just something that you gravitate towards.

And I think that the three of us being friends since we were like 15 years old has helped all three of us understand, you know, life and the fog and, you know, getting out of it and being your own person and coming to light. Definitely, yeah. So you happen to be related to kind of a celebrity of sorts in the adoptee community? I do. And she's been on the podcast before. And her author name is Emma Stevens. And she's written two books, A Gathering Place and A Fire is Coming.

Both books are great books. And Emma is here with us as well today. So let's welcome Emma to the show. Hi, Emma. Hey. How have you been? I've been. Really good. And I'm just so good to see Kelly here and see you, Melissa. I know. Thanks for hooking us up and coming on with us. And so when you were on, Mind Your own Carmen the Past. You didn't use your real name for quite a while. I knew you was Emma.

And I remember you telling me that I couldn't use your picture in the promos and don't use any videos, you know for anything. But recently you've made a few changes, so why don't you tell us why you chose to use a pseudo name in the 1st place and what's? Changed recently and why? Well, I'm and this just all came about last week, so it's very timely. OK. That I was able. I was honored to be on fireside

adoptees. And Greg Gentry was my host and he interviewed me and I kind of laid it all out there of why I used a pseudonym and why I feel like now it's time to come clean and let everyone know that Emma is a part of me and she will

write again. But. She's is part of Linda Campbell P Vac and that's my real name and I'm trying to get the integration happening to where people will understand that and I know it's been confusing and I have to thank hosts like you that for two years now have been trying to trip over. Calling me by the right name and in fact I've outed myself by saying Linda on a podcast and they finally gone back in and edited out.

And Kelly will get a kick out of this because we share a cousin by the name of Stephanie. And she was forever trying to say to me, everything's OK, Linda, I'm not going to tag you on social media, but if a picture would come up, I would be calling her saying you've got to remove that immediately. He's always gracious and did it. But it was important to me to use a pseudonym because my family, my adoptive family, were of the attitude that it was a taboo subject.

We never speak about me being adopted at any time that would happen. They felt like it took away from them and made them feel inferior and that I would be selfish and ungrateful to even think about wanting to meet a biological family. But also my parents have recently passed and the the reason to use a pseudonym has kind of dissolved. So for my psychological, my mental health, I felt like it was really important to not use a fictitious name anymore and to be myself.

You know, my own birth mother used a fictitious name, and I would have been unable to ever find her because I have a fake name on my birth certificate. And as you know, I went through extreme measures to find her real name. But I thought it ironic that this theme of using fake names went throughout my life. And so I finally thought, our secrets only make us sick and I need to come clean and it feels so good. I have to tell you, I'm so I. Bet, I bet. So what kind of triggered that?

Just over time, you just kind of had that feeling that this needs to be different. Well, in my second book, the fire is coming. I allude to it in this almost the last chapter where I tell my reader that, you know, ironically, I'm using a pseudonym and I have started to attribute my writing ability to my pseudonym. And so it kind of became a tricky thing of my psyche being split. And so for my mental health, I had to say, now, wait a minute. Emma's a part of Linda and

Linda's poor self. We all have a lot of parts in us, you know. I'm not trying to say they're real severe, but it was important to me to no longer. It kind of became a fantasy and I was attributing my abilities to something outside myself, which that's not the case. It's all within me. Yeah. So you talked a little bit about having your parents pass, and that kind of gives you that freedom to.

To open up, you know, some of those doors that you've locked because you're trying not to hurt everybody. Talk about that a little bit. I mean, did you feel, you know, how did you feel about that? Did you feel kind of, like angry at? Them that you couldn't. Be free. I was very censored and if I were to have used my voice, any. In with my own name and let them know that I'm going to tell my story. There would just be there was no repair of the relationship at

the stage of the game. There would never be enough time for them to forgive. And you know, want me to be the person that I am implies that was kind of outside the capacity of them to do it was their nature. And so I used a pseudonym so I could use my voice and not wait for people to pass. And I know a lot of people writing their memoirs do that. They wait till the parents pass to not hurt them. But I decided that I could use a pseudonym and and do it now. Yeah, and still.

Get your truth out there. And still get my truth out there. So were they still alive when you wrote, when your books came out? Yes, they were both alive during the gathering place. And actually, no. My mother had passed last summer, about this time last summer, and a fire is coming. Came out in February of 2023. Did they read the books? Oh no, they had no idea I wrote anything. Oh wow, They. Had no idea. Oh wow, that was a big. Thing it works. I was. I was completely Incognito.

Wow, no wonder you freaked out when your cousin put that picture up there. Yes, yes. Holy moly. So let's bring Kelly back into the mix here. So how did you guys meet? Are you biologically related then or adoptive family related? Biologically. Oh, wow. Biologically. So she's on my biological father's mother's side, My biological grandmother's paternal grandmother's side is where she's at.

Isn't there? So we just recently met in person, but we've, you know, Facebooked for a long time and messaged and. But we just finally got to meet in person and it was a big group gathering. So we didn't get a lot of one-on-one time, but that'll come next. Next time we go to visit, we'll take off and you know, do a little. Private time? Or maybe with Stephanie? So was it DNA? Through DNA you guys found each

other or? It was through DNA and I first found my cousin Stephanie, who confirmed that my suspicion of my birth father was correct. And so that would be. I I was on the paternal side and they told me about Kelly and her fantastical adoption story. So, well, first of all, my daughter did her DNA, but it was really just to find out those quirky things that they'll say, you know, you have, I don't know, short fingers or you, you're more likely to get eczema. I don't know.

And she said, but mom, the weirdest thing is that there are relatives showing up on my report and I don't know who they are. And I just dropped dead in my tracks and I was just like, what? And at that point, I didn't know if they were my relatives or her father's side. And when I started looking at the list of the people and I immediately reverted to my investigative skills that I had back in the 80s when I found my birth parents and was able to start making a family tree out

of names. And then there was the surname. That Kelly's familiar with of Newman And I thought, what are the chances? And I happen to know that from my past. It's a long story, but Newman was supposedly my biological father, or possibly. And so then I confirmed that. And then once I did meet the family of my paternal side, they said, well, your story's great, but you've got to hear Kelly's because she's got a doozy. So. There's a lot, a lot of ins and outs, yeah. So were you.

Did she show up as a first cousin on Ancestry or your DNA tests or? I don't believe Kelly had actually done the 23 Andme ancestry. I did. Ancestry. And at that time I wouldn't have even known your name, especially with your married last name. It was. Well, and I think that I did it after. I think it was after I knew. That's right.

But I was able to confirm Kelly because of the cousin of mine that I did test very high with, and then she was able to tell me about Kelly. I feel like we tested like third or fourth, something like that. I feel like I can't remember for sure, but I think that. My first cousin once removed. Right. But I don't think they tested it as we as you did with Steph for some reason maybe, I don't know. Yeah. I'll have to Kelly's biological father is my cousin, my first. Cousin.

OK, got it. Now I got it. Yeah. So how are you guys? Like are you, you're both adopted, So do you guys have those conversations and like have that kind of linked to each other and that little bond of adoption? We're just beginning, really. Because it's been I live far away and I've been to California twice but have only met Kelly

once. And like Kelly said, we had a lot of family member there members there and it didn't didn't lend us the opportunity to get, you know, off by ourselves, but especially after this podcast, I know we will. Yes, absolutely, absolutely. We chatted. We chatted the other night for a few minutes and we have. A lot of stuff in common, for sure. We could probably talk for hours and hours and hours about it, I'm sure. That's what happens.

That's definitely what happened. So let's have a little bit of adoptee conversation. Just I love because I used to do kind of group offer YouTube and stuff and I like, love having the group here to kind of get things talking. So do you think you can heal from the primal wounds? And if you think yes, how did you do that? You want to go, Emma? Sure, I don't think you could ever get rid of it. The primal wound, because it is a part of us, it can heal over. Just like with any wound you get

a scab. And and it really depends how you know. Here you have this, now what are you going to do with it? And I've decided for myself that I've wanted to take away all the erroneous things. I've always thought about myself of being an unwanted baby, a bad baby. You know, all of those that I'll always be abandoned, that kind of thing. Those are implicit memories that I have, that I developed with, but I've challenged them now to say those aren't true.

I have the choice to believe him or not, and I've chosen for myself, that I've befriended my primal wound and it's going to be my kind of superpower now. It's always going to be with me, but I am choosing to kind of step out of a broken story, into the story I want it to be. Yeah, I wish more adoptees would kind of make that correlation where. It can be your superpower and you can help so many people through your story and how you've healed and how you have

found your authentic self. Because I think that's a big deal in the adopted community is trying to conform to the family that you're in and you know you're the expectations they have of you and all those things. So you don't feel that rejection and abandonment again. But I just wish people would embrace. Their essence, you know, and realize that they were put here in this position to actually help other people.

And I have a saying up here. It says my big biggest breakthrough moments happen when I finally admit that I'm tired of my own shit. And that's kind of what happened to me, you know, is you kind of have to be sick and tired of being sick and tired before you can kind of come around and just start looking and trying to find yourself, you know? That's so huge, I think, in the adopted community. What about you, Kelly? What do you think about the primal lound? I just.

I think that I just relate it to trauma these days. It's just something, you know, I I lost a grandchild at 18 months old, and it taught me a lot about trauma. I've had to learn a lot about trauma. His older brother, my first grandson, has definitely got some lingering trauma from it. And I think that at the older I get, the more I relate it to that type of feeling. It's like a trauma. There are things that trigger it and things that bring it out more than other things.

You know, it's something I think you just have to. I think it's just so much easier as you get older. Because you come into your own, I think it's tougher when you're young because you're trying to do everything for everybody else. And when you finally get to that age where you go, I don't care what anybody else wants. I'm going to do what I want to do. I'm going to say what I want to say. I want to be who I want to be. It gets a little bit easier.

But I think it is definitely a triggering type of thing, a trauma thing throughout your life. You know, there are certain things that are just going to bring it up and trigger it, you know?

I do think that we are making a difference though, you know, getting out there and telling our stories and writing books and all those things I'm seeing in the younger adoptee community that they're coming around a lot sooner than we did, you know, And I think that we are making a difference there, which is so huge, and I think that's great. So to end, I just like to ask the question, what would you like struggling adoptees to know? I would just say it's going to

be okay. It's going to be okay. You're going to be okay. Get out there and get the information younger like what you said, you know, get get out there and research it. Get. I mean, I didn't realize how much was out there until Emma came along. I mean it's just craziness. There's so much there's just, it's just everywhere and I didn't realize that. And so there's so much information and so much help and.

You know, just get out there while you're young and figure it out and get over it and move on and live your life. You know it's not who you are. You're an adoptee. You know you're an adoptee, but it's not who you are. And I would just springboard right off of what Kelly said, is that to realize that we have choice and that we need to give, adoptees need to give their own selves permission. To step into their authenticity, into their lives and realize

that life wants life. I say that I think in the first book of it kind of dispels that whole idea of oh, I'm unwanted, Well, really because you're here, you're having this human experience here on earth. So it's up to you. You have the choice whether you want to own it or or do anything else with it. So I would just be encouraging to. Yeah, just make those choices for yourself. What's right for you? Yeah. You gave me chills. I know I said that in my last podcast episode where I didn't

know I had a choice. I didn't know I could be who I wanted to be, who I needed to be. I I know I didn't know. And and it sounds so crazy to me saying that now, you know, looking back, I'm like. Why did I not know? That, but I just felt like I had to do whatever was supposed to be done next. What was ever expected? Just like. I didn't know all of this was out here until about 6 years ago and started uncovering one thing led to another, to another, to

another. And I think that we're studying path. Even the people. There were people in the 60s, Betty Jean Lifton and Nancy Verrier. They've paid a path that's made it a little easier for us and now our next people will be a little easier for them. Definitely. I think it's our mission, really. It's a it's a for me, it's something I have to do, and I didn't like you until I got into the community. I had no idea I had a, you know, great adoption experience.

I still had the primal wound, but I didn't. It didn't affect me as much as a lot of people. And then when I got out there and saw so much pain and hurt and all the things, I was just blown away. And immediately change the focus of my podcast, I was just like, I have to do something. I have to, you know, I have to do my part. I just felt that pull to do that. So yeah, I think that's kind of all our responsibilities as adoptees to help. So Linda, tell us about. Any links Social media?

Pages, Websites. How do we get a hold of you? How do we get your books? Well, I. Am on the socials and it would just be at Emma Stevens, writer. I am on Amazon and Audible for the books. That's on, you know, Paperback, Kindle and then also on Audible if you prefer that. Awesome. We'll have all those links in the show notes so people can

find you. Thank you, ladies, for coming on Mind your own karma today and discussing your adoption stories with me again, Emma. And nice to meet you, Kelly. I want to thank Emma and Kelly for coming on the show today. It does feel strange to me to call Emma Linda because I've known her as Emma since the beginning, so I'm not sure what

I'm going to end up calling her. But it makes me so happy when I see adoptees breaking out of that mold of what I'm supposed to do. And who am I hurting by telling my truth? And oh, I can't say that because this person might hear it. But these are the things that adoptees struggle with every day, trying to juggle adoptive family, biological family, and then our own truth.

But we're just so terrified that we're going to hurt someone, that they're going to leave us again, that they're going to abandon us again, that we hold in our truth until we feel safe enough to tell it. And a lot of times, it's not until people have passed that we feel like we have the freedom to do that. And I know a lot of listeners are probably not wanting to tell their story on a podcast for that exact same reason. And I just want to say I totally

understand you. And I hope that at some point you feel free enough to be able to tell your truth. Because there is an adoptee out there that has a wound in the exact same shape as your story, and they need to hear your story. They need to hear that they're not alone. And that's the whole point of this podcast, not only educating the world, but helping other adoptees feel that there is some community and some validation

out there. So thank you, Emma, for showing us adoptees that it's okay to peel off another layer of that onion and show your truth. I'd like to remind everyone that Emma's been on the podcast a couple of times before. So if you go back to episodes 44 and 52, we talk specifically about her Story and her two books, A Gathering Place and A Fire Is Coming. If you are looking for another adoptee Story, A Gathering Place is a great book.

One of my favorite parts is when she talks about the lengths that she had to go through. To get her adopted information, it is unbelievable what she had to do. So if you get the book just to read that part, it's totally worth it. A Fire is Coming is a thriller and you will read that in one setting because you will not want to put it down. It is for everyone because anyone can fall prey to a doctor, a psychologist, anyone

in authority. When you are vulnerable, whenever I tell anyone about the fire is coming, I always say that it could be a movie. It would be The Fatal Attraction of therapists. And again, you can find the links to these two great books in the show notes. Thanks for joining me today for this episode and if you need to get a hold of me, all my links are in the show notes. As always, take what you need and leave what you don't and always remember to mind your own karma. I'll see you next time.