S2E62 INTERVIEW WITH THERAPIST TERANCE DAWKINS

Hey there. It's Melissa. Brunetti and welcome to the mind your own Karma podcast. Either Karma crew. Welcome to another episode of mind your own Karma. I have a special guest today. Terrence Dawkins, he is a counselor and we talked about attachment theories, adoptive parents, and what they can do to help their child. Adjust, we talk about the fog.

We talk about reunions, all kinds of things that were covering in today's episode, but let me tell you a little bit about Tara, Points Terrence Dawkins is a South Carolina licensed independent social worker clinical practice. He is also licensed as a licensed clinical.

Social worker in North Carolina, Terrence received his undergraduate and master's degree in social work from Winthrop University. He is also the owner of his own private practice, entitled, missing pieces, Counseling Services, which is located in the community where he grew up.

He currently works in the Counseling Center at University as well Terrance has completed training and dialectical behavioral therapy cognitive behavioral therapy eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing and internal family systems therapy. He likes to use an Eclectic approach when providing services to his clients through his own

childhood experiences. And the experiences from his clients, he has discovered the importance of the different beliefs and lessons that are learned through family interactions and daily interactions. This is led to his interest in trans generational trauma and the impact it has made throughout many generations. Terrence seeks to utilize his skills to destigmatize mental health, especially in the African-American Community.

He believes mental health is for everyone and has a hope to reduce the self-imposed barriers, which prevents clients from utilizing Mental Health Services. Here is my interview with Terrence Dawkins Alright, we are welcoming Terrence Dawkins to the show today. Hi Terrance. Hey, how are you? I am great. I'm going to have you start by telling us a little bit about yourself. Okay. So my name is Terrence Dawkins. I'm a licensed clinical social worker.

I'm from Spartanburg South Carolina where I do work at a local University here, but I also have my own private practice and title of missing pieces, Housing Services. And I went to school at Winthrop Varsity, which is located in Rock, Hill, South Carolina, and their undergrad and master's degree in social work and decided. I wanted to move back home and got licensed clinical social

worker. So I can provide Therapy Services and do different workshops as well as public speaking engagements on brand new topics. Awesome. So, let's just jump right in. We had talked an email back and forth a little bit about attachment Theory. Can you define that for us?

Yes, so Attachment theory was developed by John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth. And ultimately wasn't that is saying is our bonds that we develop early on in childhood impacts how we interact with the world and interact with other people and they describe you attachment Styles or attachment categories. One of those things secure attachment and secure attachment is where we feel like you have all. Our needs and all our wants met and that way we can anticipate others to give us what we need

to give us what we want. So we can depend on carriers working in on other people in the world. So we have a secure attachment. Another attachment is anxious attachment and this one's a little bit different because but this one is more of like a developed from inconsistent parenting patterns. And it's, I guess you can say sometimes the parents supporter of sometimes they're unresponsive and that could be emotionally specifically and what happens with anxious and passionate is the child.

Doesn't know what they're going to get. So they become anxious around. Do I am going to have what I need met. Our grandparents from respond and that could lead to low self-esteem of the self, but they still have high hopes for others to give them what they Why need another one would be voided attachment and this one is more of people that are not emotionally there or emotionally

available. And so the child, or the adult later can be highly independent and they don't necessarily want or need relationships because they feel like they're not going to get what they want. Then I'm going to get what they need. So they really avoid those type of Actions and avoid those different types of bonds. And the last one would be disorganized where the child is

inconsistent when unpredictable. So it's similar to anxious attachment, and also assembly to avoided, but with the disorganized, they seek and they want this relationship, they want those Bond, but they're so confused. Are so fearful of what they might get that. They're so they're disorganized. And this one has a negative view of their self. You need a real others. Yeah, I see a lot of adoptees I think with disorganized and because I think it's like what they want the most.

They fear the most as well. Yeah. And you know attachment Theory can go a lot deeper than my brief explanation that is just a brief overview of these attachments. So can you explain kind of what happens when that mother-child bond is broken at Birth or soon after birth? Yes. So, There is this day, I studied intergenerational trauma that ties directly to attachment Theory. I do believe, but intergenerational trauma is ultimately the traumas that are passed along to us.

From our caregivers are not parents and interactions, we have with them and part of that, is what they call epigenetics. Have you ever heard of that before? Yeah, but I don't know much about it. So, epigenetics is the expression of genes. Intimately. So when a mother is carrying a child, the experiences that she might having whether it's a stressful environment or anything like that, that can

directly impacts to a child. So at Birth, when that child is born able to respond to different things in the world, as it were, as if they were still in the, the fetus in the womb. So it really just depends on how the environment that was in and out, actually child, but My mother is separated from a child. The biggest in this is very dependent on the age, I think.

So when a mother separated that bond is broken so the child can then develop one of these of different attachment Styles aside from secure because that attachment with a mother is broken. So they could feel anxious about. Well, I'm going with the stranger. I don't know of a stranger's going to give you a avoided as far as I don't know. I'm going to avoid different interactions or different attachments because I don't know what I'm going to get or

disorganize has. I'm confused as a whole as far as it depending on what exactly happened to Chocolate be separated. So there was my and abuse that was in the home. That child is fearful of the person. They're supposed to be giving them the care they need. So I don't know whether they're going to do something harm me. I don't know whether they were do something. You know what I mean?

So that's what I confusion comes into play and that's how it's different from the other attachment Styles. So when the mother is separated at Birth or separate illiterate women childhood back early on attachment is broken. So do you believe as we talked a lot about how the outside world outside of the adoption Community? Talk about well, you don't remember it. So how, you know, how does that affect you later in life and it's something that you cognitively don't.

Ember and we talked about, you know, how it's stored in ourselves. Yes, yes, I think that's exactly what I was about to bring. So, what's trauma is really stored in the body, really? Think about because that energy has to go somewhere. So just because I don't remember specific event happening whether I'm a doctor or not doesn't mean it's not going to impact me. But ultimately what's going to happen is your body is going to respond as if it's in that

situation. So if I don't remember, No, the separation. Remember when I was taken from a family, but in a way, when I get older, I'm placed placed in a situation where someone that I truly care about leads or I lose that person. My bicycle respond the same way as if I was being taken or same way as if I was being removed from the home this correspondingly because it's something that your body is familiar to.

So what are some ways that an infant might be able to act out, because We're nonverbal and we can't run away. And so what are some things that you might see in an infant that has attachment disorder. Okay. So there was this study Done by Mary Ainsworth called The Strange situation and was that she ultimately put mother child and with stranger in a room and there were different stages to this experiment and in some of those States was mother was in

their child is engaging playing. Then they brought Stranger hand with the mother and a child. Then the mother left, the left the child with the Stranger Than The Mother reunified. It came back and what they found was, if a child had a secure attachment, when Mom left the child to be stressed out very distressed because the person that I look for, to get my wants and needs met his gone. And then, when they were with the stranger, there was real avoided and along with the

stranger. But what they saw was, my mother came I'm back. The child was interacting with both the stranger and the mother because the person, they felt secure with it and failsafe those back in the room. So I know that that person is not going to allow anything to harm me or hurt me. So I'm going to interact with this stranger. So there was a positively computation are in. Mom is that safe base. So with anxious attachment, again, mom left, it was still

that I'm real distressed. I'm not anxious. I want her to come back. And so, do you see this sense of distress response? But then when Mom comes back, the child wasn't necessarily go straight. To her is more of a avoided kind of fear and resistant to go back to it because you left me. Hmm, the person that I felt safe with, especially when I was here with the stranger, the stranger.

I really, I was fearful of a stranger when you left and you and when you came back, I don't know, what do you want to leave or not. So, I get anxious with that, and I kind of pushed him away and you'll see that that child will be positively more. But then with a avoidant attachment, when Mom leaves surprisingly, guess what? There was no distress at all. Well, so you can leave and I'm still going to be okay because I can't rely on.

We want to realize myself you. So I Skyped with since I'm relying myself, if I'm there with the stranger I'm gonna go play with that stranger as if that was my kid. They deliver because I regulate myself, you don't regulate me and someone mom returns that child will still show a little interest to mom when she returns because again, I don't know what you going to do. So I don't really trust you that

much. So mother and the stranger, they kind of retreat was in a way, you can see some of those things in children, whether they cry a lot, the killer believes, how they interact with the caregiver because there was to come back. I'm so different things like that because the behaviors that we see in the children as well, how they communicate and that's crying that's reaching for the parent, as, you know, pushing them away turning their back to them.

So, it's all about paying teachers to go small. Behaviors to see exactly how they respond. Yeah. So, what are some ways that an adoptive parent can navigate that when they notice those things in their child? Yeah, so I think along with intergenerational trauma Um so it is to the aspect of I'm a adoptive parent. I need to be aware of what I'm bringing into this new relationship with this adoptee.

So that means those traumas that I probably experienced or the teaching and beliefs that I've experienced, I need to be aware that first to understand, how I'm going to react to a child if they were to display some of these behaviors. I think that's one important date because just because you bring a new child in does it mean They want to be perfect. There might have some painters debate this way. And how are you reacting to those display Behavior?

So I think Versa, what about the pair we need to do is be aware of their own stuff that they're bringing into it, but then also to have patience with this new member of the family because they have things that are being brought into this relationship as well. Again, that can be through genetics that can do through their experiences. So being patient with them in China, to learn how to work together. But the key thing is to try to get that secure attachment so that they know the hate.

I know that you probably had some things that happen to you before. But I'm here, I'm going to protect you. I'm going to give you what you want and so, being more aware of what they're bringing in, also being patient with what that child's experience to try to

help transition that attach. Yeah, I'm kind of hoping the narrative is changed since I was adopted in the late 60s because Is Ben, it was kind of, you know, integrate the child as much as possible and make it as normal as possible which meant don't talk about adoption at all. Like, you know, don't or not. You're part of our family now and how lucky you are and we chose you and, you know, the

whole narrative. When so you get that Vibe like I can't talk about it. I can't talk about my feelings about it. I feel abnormal that I'm having these feelings because they're telling me I shouldn't have these feelings. Yeah, so it's a huge thing. I'm hoping it's changing right now.

I Don't know if you know anything about if that's changing or not, like, in the production but just hearing you speak about that part of what happens when you're trying to develop these different attachments.

As being very remote, be emotionally available to the child and that could be. If I had a child that wanted to talk about the biological parents and I avoided it, that's not really being emotionally available there showing that, well, this is something that we just can't talk about. So, the The child's going to have feelings about that and that could then lead them to that pinches attachment. That could lead them to that avoidant attachment because

guess what? I my feelings the seem valid. So I don't know what I'm going to get from you. So I hope it is changed as well because that could lead to some of these different attachment disorders and things like that. I know for me when you were talking about, I guess it would be the avoidance where it's I can take care of myself. I'm very A very much that way. Like, I don't want to ask for

help. I can do everything on my own you know it takes a lot for me to ask for help and be that vulnerable to see if someone's going to follow through. It's really difficult for me and even if they do, follow through, you still having your mind that this won't last. Yeah, this isn't forever. This is only temporary. So yes this happened this time but I'll make some Pub never happen. So that doesn't change the way you still here. First, you know, he followed

through that once. Yeah. And that's a clear indication of hey, I'm avoiding this type of interaction with you our relationship.

Yeah. The other thing is, a lot of us went to foster care in between, I was in foster care for two and a half months part of that was because my birth mother hadn't didn't want to sign the papers yet, but a lot of us were just put there even though there were parents waiting and And I recently learned from another adoptee that they did that as kind of a test period to see how the baby was going to react well. Okay. So then you've just taken away from their mother put him in

foster care. So now they're attaching to the foster parent and then you're moving them again. And for me, when I was in foster care because my mom hadn't signed papers yet, she would come see me. So I would see her for an hour or two and then she would leave again and then she would come back and I don't know, like I just wonder how I felt as Baby having her come and go like that

and then getting adopted. And it's, you know, I think that's probably where I adopted that attachment disorder. Yeah, yeah, and that's difficult as a baby boy. Won't child to have a caregiver come in and out in, and out and did not understand exactly what's going on. You just know that they're there for a short amount of time, and then I'm here with these other people, he didn't.

Even if I do develop an attachment to these other people, they The new thing is that just reinforcing the fact that I can't develop close relationships because they're going to get disrupted. So, what is the point anyway? Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of adoptees that feel that way and I think they don't realize why they're doing it, you know.

Yeah, the other thing that I wanted to bring up was transracial adoptions because that mirroring for any of us, but especially transracial, adoptees is huge. And so many of us don't get to experience our biological culture, you know, they, the families we come into, we kind of just blend in with that. And partially, because as adoptive families, want us to feel like part of their family, they don't want us to feel different, but we do feel different. Yep, we do.

And so that needs to be looked at. So why is mirroring so important to children? I think marrying is so important because As product from what I've experienced. A lot of people will come to therapy for me personally because they say, I want someone that looks like, right? So they feel like I share a lot of different experiences. They might share that. I might have a different understanding that someone else and if some aspects, that is true.

So I think mirroring in reference to adoption is, is very important because it gives that person something to hang On to as far as I can relate to you, that means I would be easier to attach to you instead of feeling. I like them different and that I always have to be on the offense so I have to always be on guard. No matter how much you tell me that, you know, I'm a part of the family and how much you tell me that, you know, you love me in my mind.

Some of the small things you might do shows me that different and again that goes back to the topic that I like to study. It's called intergenerational. Trauma, you have these Families that do have these, you know, the transformational. Have you said it was transformational? Yes, transracial adoptions. They're bringing in certain things and certain boutiques that they might have interactions that they have against North specific race or

specific culture. And sometimes that's how they respond to them and the perceptions that they have about different races and different cultures might impact exactly how they interact with a child. And yeah, I think it was also important. And I really think about why am I adopted a child in the first place? Huge. What is my intention to adopt a child? And sometimes is you know, bad intentions. I will say, you know, I want to I want to take this child away from and be the superhero for

this child. But is that really benefiting child, boys? That benefiting you so that you can feel like you've done something good for the environment of the world. So I think really understanding what you're bringing into this. Like I said before, bringing it into the adoption is very important. Yeah, the other thing is infertility. Is huge. A big reason and a lot of people adopt without getting therapy for that issue ahead of time.

You know, like grieving that you can't have your own child or whatever needs to happen. I don't even know. But a lot of times they don't look at those issues before they adopt and then they try and Slap that bandaid on there and a lot of times it doesn't work because that's still not your biological

child. And no. So it's difficult, I think, if you don't get that therapy ahead of time, exactly because like I said that child's going to bring in different behaviors that, you know, you were not anticipating and that might not even be the child's fault. And, like I said, could be due to genetics could be direct interaction and experiences and they're going to bring in stuff that you might not be ready for. So, how are you going to react

that child teen asleep? Does these disruptive behaviors and disrupt the family that you created and how are the attitudes that you didn't create from those beliefs wouldn't interact? How you are emotionally there for their child? Yeah. And you know, a lot of these kids act out there was talk about the compliant adoptee and then there's the one that acts out and I was a compliant adoptee, but a lot of that act out or just waiting for you to reject them.

They're like, what are you doing now? What are you going to do now? Are you going to stay? Are you know what's, you know? And so it's a testing thing. I think a lot of adoptive parents are not ready for that and they don't know why this is happening and then they react like you were saying earlier because they don't understand that it's part of their relinquishment.

And it's so much you said I was a compliant that people I would even post a question of why were you or any other adoptees so compliant? What was the reasoning behind that? It's not just that I want to follow the rules or shows like that. It could be two things. One I feel like what happened. He was my fault so I need to be compliant so it doesn't happen again. Exactly what man, I can be compliant and then we would love me. You check me on my knees would be met.

So again that's the part that anxious attachment style try to do everything that I can then you're not going to leave me. That kind of leads into behaviors. That can happen with adulthood. Yeah, yeah. So kind of getting back to the mirroring for a second. I think that's another thing that Parents need to look at because like I said they want to make you feel so much a part of the family that they ignore your biology and your culture.

And it's so important to celebrate that and that's a gift really because if you bring another child from a different biology and culture into your family celebrated take, take them to cultural events. Yeah. Bring your family to these cultural events cook the food. Like exactly. Celebrate that I think that is so much better than trying to ignore it and pretend that they are part of you, you know, exam. So you mentioned, adults attachment Theory, how that plays out as an adult.

What would you see? Okay, so you talked about a little bit but yeah I haven't really talked a lot about secure attachment that's because again if I'm secure I don't have any worries or concerns. Is Michael in really displaying type of negative behaviors or anything like that. And you will have a fulfilling and fulfilling relationships.

So but when you look at something like anxious attachment, then that would look like, I'm always afraid that someone's going to leave or I do something wrong. So whenever I whatever something seems wrong and it does again this my perception doesn't mean necessarily mean very hungry. When I see that, something's wrong or feel. Nothing's wrong. I'm going to get hyper-vigilant, I'm going to get real anxious and so that means I need to do whatever I can to make sure that this person state.

So what that looks like is, for example, if I feel like I'm in a relationship or friendship and that person might have had something going on and they own personal life with someone else. But then they're not talking and I get real high position because I did something for them not to talk to me and I got to fix it, so I continue to ask them. What's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? Because I want to know what can I do to fix it?

And then they get aggravated with me and a lot of people might see that I've been cleaning up. But it's really that. I'm trying to call my own nervous system down so that I make sure everything's okay or you have someone with the avoidant attachment. And what that looks like is I don't really like intimate or fiscal touch or I want y'all want to keep you at a distance and I'm not really emotionally available for you and and things

like that. So that person's real distant and relationship and if you have somebody that's real distant in a relationship but then you have someone who's very anxious in a relationship. They want to clash mix and you know because that person was anxious person could be seen as cleaning the void and person can be seen as distant.

And even though something is not necessarily wrong with the person with the what is attachment anxious person who's going to feel like your needs and then on the try to do whatever they can to make sure that this is okay. And that's probably going to get on the avoiding person's nerves. And now you guess what? The relationship probably ended.

So, what is it when because I see this An adoptee Community too clingy at first, but then, when that person starts to be clingy back is when they're like, I'm done, I'm out. Yeah. When you have first, and then, let's say the person starts to get clean you because that's it. They have that distrust their so that could be a part of anxious and avoidance. Ohh with these attachments, you don't necessarily have to fit in a one category you can move through these different categories.

So I can have an anxious attachment and I can want these relationships and I try to do whatever I can, but then once I get it, I didn't remember. Hang on, wait a minute, we're not had this before. That person left for that person would give me what I need. So, let me back myself off a little bit. So they went from one to the other and that's not normal at all. Okay. Yeah. So I want to talk about adoption fog for a minute. I know it a lot of adoptees hate the term, but it's just kind of

a blanket term. It's easier to say the fog and we all know what it means. So the fog describes the way it up. These feel think operate and relate before they come out of the denial that they're feeling and conditioning and ignorance that cloaks, the impacts of adoption. So how to adopt these get in the fog and the first place, why do we have that screen? I know you explain that to me a little bit before a little bit more in-depth. Pinkie Pie one more time because

I tell you just a little bit. Yeah, so the fog is basically kind of a Evil mode. And we don't even realize that we're doing it. And then usually what happens is, there's some kind of event that kind of wakes us up where those rose-colored glasses are off and we're like, oh my gosh, I have this attachment disorder. This is why I'm, you know, so angry, this is why I can't have relationships because of those attachments and things in it's because I was adopted.

We're told so often. Like I said earlier not to have these feelings because In a great family and you're lucky and, you know, you have parents. And so as a kid we get told that our feelings are normal. So we put up this fog around us to kind of help us cope. But then we come out of it and we're like, whoa! He said defense I really I think it's worlds, couple things one, I feel like it's a defense mechanism to. I think is like you said the

point. Imagine the worst survival is so way for me to be able to survive because as humans, we We want to be able to survive. We want to make sure their needs are met and we want to have the filling relationships. I think that's true for everybody. But when we have things that happen to us, we put up this fog or put on this mask to wear. I have to protect myself.

So if I can protect myself that certain things aren't true or I can protect myself to prevent something from happening than I ultimately don't feel those negative emotions or negative feelings that I don't want to. Sakura, his is definitely a defensive event that you said something happens that kind of wakes you up and you realize that it is true. And I think that is so important because you cannot begin to heal until you acknowledge some of the things that are bothering

you to you. Now sin, they seriously that you had an impact and has me and also that you acknowledge the vicar behaviors that they come from that. So I think it's very important to come out of that falls to take off that mask to realize that these things. Things did have an impact on the end but just because they had it impact doesn't have to have it. So that's two different things,

right? So if it had, it means is already happened and impact, but it doesn't have to have impact for me to move forward with my life. What do you think about? Because some people never say that they were ever in the fog. You know, there's adoptees that are just fine throughout their entire lives and it doesn't bother them. And then other ones it feels like you know, when they come out of the fog it literally

feels like they're dying. They're hurting so badly is that kind of related to attachment Styles. Why do you think there's such a problem? Because what happens is as long as you continue to be in the fall To go for the body keeps the score. That's a trauma book as well. So the by the scores, to the longer I stay in there, I'm ultimately sitting in that

trauma. And if I continue to sit in a trauma, you could teams to have this negative impact on, which is why the longer I stay in it. When I finally do come out, I have this greater response to it as negatively and I think that's why a lot of people feel like about you used to turning that they're dying because they sat with his so long On that when they probably do realizing that, it's just overwhelming for. Why do some adoptees? Never feel like they have any

Trauma from adoption? Because if I have to acknowledge it or I have to admit that mean that makes you real. Hmm. So I want so badly to think that the experiences that I've had but trauma that I've had before is not true, it didn't happen anymore that I want to just forget it. Because if I can forget it, but I will be okay. But that's not necessarily the case all the time. And I feel like we don't acknowledge the, the trauma that you've had.

You can't begin to truly heal and we wonder why these different relationships that you have with their friendships, whether their intimate relationships aren't working out. Why are you respond to different circumstances? The way that you do or situations though that you do and so truly trying to understand yourself You have to admit that these things had a impact. And what that impact was the truly figure out? Okay, well, these babies are working anymore like to try something different.

And if you don't acknowledge those things, that's happened in the past and continue the same things over and over and you ultimately our aim away. We traumatizing yourself, hmm. I think it helps the way that you're raised to like, like we were talking earlier about, if the adoptive parent really talks about their culture and it allows them to speak about adoption and get their feelings out early. I think that is huge to, with how much fog you're in.

Yeah, because everybody wants to feel safe and secure. I'm not going to open up if I don't feel safe and I don't feel secure. So when I'm adopted and there's not a safe and secure environment, you might get some things out of me, but you're not going to get everything out of, right. You might be aware of some of the things that are Impact in your body but you're not going to know what all. So, creating a safe and secure

environment. I think it's very important in that, even with the transracial adoptions could be the simple as bringing in the culture of that, you know, adopt D, so that I can feel safe and secure. So I have Outcast because they're different and though they look different. Yeah. So that's safe and secure environment is very important. Yeah, letting that child.

Be authentic. I think so many people especially with Adoption. They want them to just feel so much a part of them, but they're not. So let's just let's address the elephant in the room and let's do it embrace it. It's not a bad thing like we need to embrace. Yeah and the thing is if I don't get it from home I wanted you to come somewhere else.

Yeah and I think that's a lot of what happens with these different behaviors and why you might see some of the top teams have these negative behaviors be hanging out with you know the people will say the wrong crowd because Get in trouble or something like that because they make me feel safe and secure or these people that I'm interacting with now makes me safe and secure because they look like and then less, you bring that into the home they're going to find us.

Some real scenario, might not be the way. That that adoptive parents we wanted to beat, right? Let's talk about biological family reunions. This is like a big subject, obviously, in adoptee communities, and most of the time these reunions don't go Well, and mine was difficult only because the, you know, you have the honeymoon period. And everything's great looking like what you see on TV and everybody's happy and hugging

and everything. And then after that it's kind of like, well, I have a mom, so who are you to me now? And who, what am I going to call you? And it's just so complicated even? Yeah, my biological siblings. I didn't grow up with them. I want to feel that Bond because we have blood, but I don't. I love them. You know, and I love having a relationship with them but I don't have that sibling Bond. So why why is that? As far as the sibling Bond. Yeah. Just just in reunions in general. Like why?

I think a lot of times both sides maybe have expectations that aren't being met, you know, my birth mother, I believe the whole time Me growing up and she thought I looked a different way and would be just different like what she had in her mind was different. And so just kind of got Rocky and then you kind of feel like you can't have hard conversations with this person because it's supposed to be Happy and we're supposed to get along. And you know, you don't want to rock the boat is this.

So it's a huge, it's a huge thing, but I think that could be a combination of things, but you can go back to whatever attachment style that you're actually in at the moment because you still have that fear that watching it close to you. Because again you might need more, I can't do it bond with you because you never been really different so I don't know. Again, like you said,

expectations. I don't know what to expect so I can't really get as close to you as I want to and especially in throughout the reunification piece of it.

You want me to be a certain way or think I'm going to be a certainly but you respond to what you want me to be out to be responding to what I am. And I think that's very important and I'll also think it's important because some of the families that are being applied those parents or their siblings, Beings their begin, bringing them to stuff. That's a intergenerational trauma. Piece of it. They're bringing in stuff into these relationships that they still haven't really Shield, or

truly fully understand. And so just because you're not as the forthcoming or open to the relationship at first, they'll respond and give up quickly because that's probably how they evolved always done things for for. So then I really willing to be as patient with you. Not really be as open as they want you to be because they expected It was so quickly but when you have it these a reunification, especially for the major disruption things.

Don't happen quickly. Yeah. So I think that patients piece isn't there a lot of times? Yeah. And then just trying to figure out specially with the mother and biological mom and dad like I have parents, they're not you, but at the same time, you are my birth mother. So it's just kind of very confusing for the adoptee to figure out where these people fit into. Your life. Yeah, it's very confusing and that's I think that's something that we don't think about going into reunions.

We just want the reunions, and I think there needs to be some therapy before during, and after, yes, for sure Union. Because it's so complicated, and there's so many ups and downs, and you just don't know where it's going to end up. And then you end up with that second rejection from your birth mother, that is, you know, again like you said that just kind of nails. In those attachment theories, that you rejected me once and you're doing it again.

Like you want to hear wearable. And so I respond as if you did it the first time, but if not worse. Yeah. Yeah. It's horrible. There's so many stories out there. That's why I started doing this podcast because the education isn't out there and it needs to be, especially for adoptive parents because they're getting into something that they have. No, Clue.

Listen, like I said, I think being very clear about why you want to do it. Whether that's your opportunity, where that's what I want, I want to, you know, add to the family. Or I want to be the superhero to his child being real. Clear about how what state your intentions and then help you with navigating pound what interacting sponsors child. And I'm going to do what I feel is best for this child and

something I think. Very important to acknowledge is if especially if you already have children as an adoptive parent, you're not going to be able to parent that adopted like your parent. Your own children. Yeah. Can't do it. Yeah. Because you have to adjust to that child to Childhood, always going to adjust to you. If they do it just to you, they probably going to want to least different attachment styles that are aside from the secure attachment, right? So what are some key things?

What kind of talked about it a little bit but what are some key things to help adoptees? Adjust as children. We talked about integrating the culture and their biology we talked about listening to the child, letting them kind of be authentic, is there anything that we're missing? You can think of being specific. I think it was adopting to figure out exactly. You know, what are some of these behaviors? They are going on or what are some of these different how they are.

Acting with me because I think it'll be very specific to their adoptee because it's not really something I can say that you go over all do aside from those things that would help them adjust. But if you can figure out and educate yourself as far as the adoptive parent about the child's background that they that's going to be something that's very helpful, understanding what the child is one through. Whether that's different also placements, whether that's different abuse situations that

they've been through. Truly understanding what's going on. So you can educate yourself about how to respond to that child. If they are placed in a situation where they feel unsafe, they start to respond. I think that's going to be very important for the adoptive parents and but you ex about the adoptive child, but I think a lot of we touch on it already. In my opinion. What do you think about family therapy? Because when should that start?

Because I believe it should start really adoptive parents before they adopt, obviously we kind of talked about that. But integrating the child into that as things come up. Yep. Do they have that kind of therapy? What age did that start? I think that again, I agree with you.

I think that therapy should be before during and after because before especially when you're looking to adopt before when you're trying to figure out again, educating yourself about that, child that your particular about. So that they occur. It can help you work through some of your own stuff. So that that is an impact how you interact with a child. But I also think it's going to be important during but the key thing and I wrote this article,

not too long though. It talked about how some of the doctor children thought therapy, didn't help. Mainly because the therapists were most focus on the adoptive parents or the caseworker in their reports in what they're saying that they wanted their needs not the children's, not the Stay when I'm being, yeah. Empathetic to what the child needed or what about the child wanted at that time? So therapy was not working at all.

So I think if you were to do therapy before his place, the main concern is going to be adoptive. Parents during the main concern is going to be both the adoptive parents and the child but more. So the child and it actors kind of like wrapping everything up and watching, how the work that both the child and the as it did before, this kind of reflected now. When should the start for the child though? Like what age do you think? As soon as soon as I get to start Wilding,

Rooms there are? We've been in therapy before anyway? Yeah, a lot of people have and so I think is the soon as they are adopted but they should be automatically with the help with maybe whatever brought them into care. But also to help with the transition from the removal of the traumatic experience from the removal. And I used to work at a community based therapy service opportunity children as well as three years old. Other therapists that can help with babies. I'm not sure.

To be honest, I don't want to really tell you, and I'll be wrong, but I'm not necessarily sure. I haven't heard. I haven't heard of it, I just, but I think one is thinking out loud, when they're younger like

that. A lot of the work would be with the parents, not necessarily do child and then when the child 2 or 3 and R is more able to communicate or show some behaviors of them, being able to tell you what they want and need in a way that's when that there are people with the childhood begin, but a lot of the therapy especially are going on in childhoods. With their parents. Yeah, yeah, I've heard of adoptive parents telling their adoptees later on that. You didn't want to be held.

You didn't want to be hugged, you know, you could like push me away and so yeah, I guess that would be something that the parent would have to bring to the therapist and say, what should I do? You know, should I force that? Should I not? You know, and I don't even know what the answers to that would be. But yeah, I would be more, I guess the adoptive parents. Kind of, how are you going to handle that? Yeah, those situations. So complicated. So tell us how we can get a hold of you.

Do you have any social media or YouTube channels or yes? So my Facebook profile is called Missing pieces counseling services and my Instagram is missing pieces counseling. So the services is not on the end of the Instagram and my website is actually www.sec.gov sce's counseling, LLC a.com. And we will put all those in the show notes. In case, anyone wants to get a hold of, you do do counseling on YouTube. And I mean, I zoom license.

In South Carolina and I'm license in North Carolina, I do in-person sessions as well as Telehealth sessions. Yes ma'am. Good, awesome. Well, thanks for coming on the show today. No problem, thank you so much for having me. I really hope that as an adoptee, you got a little bit of validation from listening to Terrence today and I hope he got a little bit of insight inside of the adopting mind. I think more therapists need to hear what we have to say so that

they can help us heal. And I'm so glad that he's doing some of these non traditional therapies, you know, I'm big on that, but the EMDR and things like that, I think it's so great. To have a toolbox with all kinds of different therapies so that you can find the right combination for you. And it's so great. That Terrence offers many of these things in one spot with one counselor so that you don't have to go to multiple counselors because a lot of us adoptees have a hard time

trusting. So it's great that he has kind of a unique offering for all kinds of clients. Thanks so much Terrence for coming on the show. Show. Maybe we'll have him back on to discuss some of these other therapies and how they can help the constellation. Now I want to talk to you as a listener for just a moment. If you enjoy mind your own Karma, I have a little favor to ask it will only take two seconds. Can you please subscribe to mind your own Karma on your listening platform?

The karma crew has been doing such a great job of supporting this. Just so if you have not done that yet, that is one way that you can help this podcast, educate the world. If you would like to know more about me and this podcast, you can go to my website, mind your own Karma dot calm. Once again, thank you so much for listening today and as always, take what you need and leave, what you don't and always remember to mind your own Karma. I'll see you next time.