Hey there. It's Melissa. Brunetti and welcome to the mind your own Karma podcast. Hey, their karma crew. Thanks for joining me for another episode of mind. Your own Karma, the adoption Chronicles. Where we are educating the world one story at a time. And today, I have Greg Gentry on
the show. You may know him if you are out and about in the Facebook adoptee groups, I am honored to have him on the show today and let me tell you a little bit more about Greg. He was born in California in 1969 and placed in. A closed adoption as an infant after spending six weeks and foster care, which was a common practice with baby scoop era. Adoptions growing up, he sensed a certain ill fit with his family and found out about his adoption when he was 10 years old.
In 2006 at age, 37, he finally discovered and made contact with his biological maternal side and has experienced all the attendant ups and downs that so often accompany reunions, he was able to connect with his Eternal family and late 20, 21. And is currently navigating the landscape and complexities of those newly emerging relationships, since coming out of the fog in 2021, Greg has been an active member of the online and in-person adoptee communities.
Here is Greg Gentry's story. So, we're welcoming Craig Gentry to the show today. Hi Greg. Hi, Melissa. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So let's just jump right in. Why don't you tell Tell us what, you know about your adoption story. Yeah, that's a good question. So I will start out by saying growing up. I knew basically nothing about it and was never really talked to about it. So anything I found out was found out in pretty much around my mid-30s.
I didn't have any any clue about where I might have come from, I didn't have any information, I don't have any names and no discussion. My adoptive parents until I secure the services of a private investigator. When I was, yeah, I guess it was 36 or 37 at the time and so, I literally found out everything about my birth mother's side all at once. Pretty much in an information that call it a dump, but it wasn't a huge amount of
information. But when you haven't seen anything at all up to that point, it feels like a dump. Is it was an email that suddenly here's what we have found out and it was information on where she lived. It was mentioned that I had grandparents that were still living. Which was a shock to me because I was 37 at the time. I knew she was very young when I found that out. And it had, really no information about my father, other than his place of birth. It was a local. What year did you hire?
These detectives are investigator 2006. Okay, yeah. So and I had wanted for about a year. I think to look into it. Seriously. I considered it off and on a few times in adulthood, but I kept kind of talking myself out of it like you shouldn't really have Worried about that or you don't really want to know. And that was really more of, I think my parents narratives than anything currently.
So since there were no discussions about it, openly growing up and the few times I did bring it up, I got kind of an emotional response cheerful response from my mom. So I kind of came to feel like this isn't something we talk about so I didn't and I talked myself out of it and even with tell people, I'm not interested in finding out, but I was interested. Stood. Yeah, I just need to seriously engage in doing it until I was
yeah mid to late 30s. So you are on unraveling adoption with that's Iverson recently. And you had mentioned that in the baby scoop era. Many adoptees were put in foster care to see if they had any problems before placement. I had never heard that before and I know I was placed in foster care. Yeah. And I had health issues but they never revealed that to My adoptive parents. So can you talk about that a little bit?
I didn't know that was like I think I found that out somewhere online and I heard it in a couple different places and it basically was like a test run kind of how the baby the infant before they go to where they'll be placed. What is it going to be like? What might they manifest in the first several weeks? And so they were placed say they like it's someone else but yeah, placed into foster care for a number of weeks or days. For me, I originally had thought
it was about three months. Is it turned out to be about six weeks? I adopted mom finally told me have no details about what it was like, who they were. I'm not even sure they know barely and it was just kind of
weigh station or stopping point. But when I read more recently, that the intention of it was to see what was going to manifest in the child, that was being relinquished or had been relinquished to that point, and it was kind of sobering because it made you think what, what exactly did they think they were going to observe, right? So kind of like I do want to say Lab Rats but I mean That's kind of what it sounds like. Are you going to be okay enough to go through with this store?
Yeah. And then, what if they, if I wasn't exactly what if you weren't then? What we're would. Yeah. Where would you go then? At that point you go to some, I don't know. The more distressing thing I have found out about that was the tendency was for foster parents in that are not to really be encouraged to bond it all with the child. So I had assumed, okay, six weeks that's awful. Maybe it's better than three months. Least, I was being held and all
these things. And then I found out that they were not encouraged for a whole lot of contact and a lot of wow, because they were being told not to bond also because the child
was going somewhere else. So now I have absolutely no idea what the standard of care might be an interesting interview to interview, foster parent back in the late 60s, really would be just to see what they were told, you know, really would because I know, I was in foster care for 10 weeks, but I was told that it was because Is my mom was trying to figure out a way to keep me and so she kept putting off signing which she didn't sign until like a week or two before I was placed.
So that was partially true. But yeah. Yeah interesting I had not heard that before. Yeah, I'm trying to remember where exactly, I saw it go back and look at the look, it up a couple places where I might have seen that and then let you know for sure it would be interesting to hear somebody from that era, who was a foster parent, what was it like were you encouraged to do or not to do? Yeah. So, how was your experience growing up? I mean, were you ever told you
were adopted? Do you remember being told? Did you have any feelings around? Finding out? I guess they had told me never found out when they told me, but I found out consciously, when I was 10 when I asked and then was told ya, we did have this discussion with you, when you were younger that I never found out when younger or what? My response was at the time. But clearly I either couldn't process it. Or didn't, or it was traumatizing itself at the time
or I no idea what it meant. Because, right, it seems to have bumped around in my head for a number of years until in a friend, helped me realize. It's there was a reason you it precipitated in you, suddenly he saw something on TV and it triggered you. And he said, was I adopted tomb? That was what I asked my mom. She's been. Yes. And my friend said, the only reason that was in your head in the first place, it's probably some party remembered this prior.
And where maybe they did tell you about that and you just weren't at a place where you can understand what that meant or why that was significant and suddenly I was confronted with it on this episode of My Three Sons. I remember the anxiety around it. Wow suddenly I just yelled out mom was I adopted I think I asked it. As I wasn't adopted was I one of these - type questions about you know? Yeah. Wow. The answer was. Yes, he must have felt different
or an inkling that nothing was. Yeah, and I've thought a lot about that to what was it like, you asked? And so, even though I didn't have this clear sense of it until I asked at age 10. So I like I say I found out at 10:00 maybe I was told earlier. Yeah, but that's when it became something conscious to me and it was earth-shattering but life
growing up, it always been. We always got along really well and I never have felt anything but love and acceptance for my family doesn't mean I felt like I naturally Really was a fit though and I didn't always know why they were very industrious
people. They were always Off cleaning the yard doing all these physical things, making stuff and I was, I wasn't as into that and I interpreted that as being lazy and I think they interpreted that as being lazy or some people would say, oh, you were just a kid that's true. But my sister was also just a kid and she was a very hard worker. There was a difference in our personalities. I didn't know where it came
from. From. I remember fantasizing that I had different siblings than the ones, I grew up with which is kind of weird before you even remember that years ago right around that time. Yeah maybe I was 7 or 8 and I was starting to think about that. Certainly by the time I found out I almost imagined what would it be like actually to be
related to my siblings. So you had a sister just a sister or do you have more siblings and where they adopted or I have two older adoptive sisters, who are my parents? Tickle daughters and neither. One of them are obviously adopt. We didn't have it conversations about it. So you are the only one that was adopted. Yeah. In the family. I was the only one was because they wanted a boy, or how did that. Yeah. But he bluntly. It was a boy. How did you get along with your sisters growing up?
And now very well. In fact, overall not even does over almost entirely. My life was one of being very agreeable and compliant. Aunt and never in the way ever. Talk you back. Never getting in fights even when they would fight the sisters with each other. I wouldn't fight nobody yelled. They would yell because they were, they were Rivals. Yeah, but I was very gentle and Inward and I feel like there were big manifestations of the just the difference in temperament between all of us.
But I felt growing up that I Is exceptionally Meek will say, even in school, I did have friends, I had to buy a plenty of friends, I wasn't, I mean, I was painfully shy but I still connected with people and I've always even in adulthood in this kind of conciliatory and Mild sort of person and it was confusing to me why I would be so much. That way growing up. When I was like, in junior high, I remember being like I wouldn't stand up for myself or anything.
I'm sure I would probably Let someone pound me into the dirt and not even raise a hand. I didn't know why I would be that way. Yeah, I had super low self-esteem. I remember growing up and I was super quiet and just wanted to blend into the background and not be seen. Yeah, very much so and definitely never made waves anywhere. Look, I was never restricted or anything.
I didn't have any rebellious stage, I kind of view that now is sort of unnatural, but I realized it was, it was symptomatic of being a compliant adoptee. Yeah, That's what it was even though I didn't know where any of that came from. It's time for why I would be that way. It was just the plane out of kind of a primal Terror that I carried. She was that I have to get along. I have to get along. I have to go along.
What do I do to get along? And so, I did, I got along flawlessly with everybody in my life, and I still mostly do people even now and some of that can be an agreeable thing in my personality. And some of that I'm aware of is being really soft and kind. Kind of like wish I had the ability to be more assertive. Sometimes this doesn't come very naturally for me. Instead. What comes out is being this way of being really agreeable with the people? And yes, there was a lot of
people pleasing in it, for sure. Which I know is not not ideal but it's not uncommon either. Yeah, it's this get along thing and I had a hard time, I had a hard time forming my own opinions and thinking I knew what was going on. And so there was a lot of inward confusion on my part about how do I, how do I arrived it? A what I think of things and it took me a most of my life to realize I can have a voice to let me in the past couple of years.
I really didn't know where that that could be the case looking Do you see any habits or tendencies that growing up and even into adulthood that you could most likely linked back to being adopted? Staying out of the way for me which is stayed with me. And I called that somewhere else I called that being a zero footprint adoptee and I also gave the example of it happens. Even at like at a grocery store
I will steer clear. Anybody who'd even think they want to look right where I am. I'm out of the way. I will never be in the way of anybody. Any place. I will never insert myself front of somebody. How about in your relationships, With clothes, you know? Yeah. I found that let's say in my what I call my vital relationships with my wife at the time and my kids. As I got older, I started to manifest these kind of reactions that I didn't know where they came from either.
They were either from the result of being really depressed, or not understanding where bursts of anger would come from wanting to run away getting in the car and driving off. It was the flight response, activated and me and I kept doing it. I didn't ever know why it was there. And so what happened was put a lot of stress on my relationships because comes across is as being reactive. Yeah.
And it was, it was a reactive way to be and I couldn't every time I tried to address it, whether it was in a therapy session or doing self work, I didn't get very far with it. So it was never really addressing what was going on. I was just kind of trying to trying to make up for what I felt were deficiencies and how I was. So when you would Feel those things. Did you feel like you were justified in your feelings? Or were you feeling like, why am I feeling this?
Or why is this happening? I felt terrible. I still feel that because I can still do that. I still can run away sometimes. Yeah, and I feel a lot of Shame over that because anyone who's been in an activated state knows what happens, what your nervous system feels like suddenly, you're sort of compelled to go in a certain direction that you thought I didn't expect to be going this way. Again, why am I doing this again? What did I just do? Yeah.
So that that can be really harmful in relationships for sure. And the other part of it is it can lead to feeling like you have to keep elements of yourself to yourself because you're afraid. People might try to remove things from you that you really need to hold on to. So I had manifestations of that at times and that's not the healthiest thing either but I didn't realize where things came from. Yeah, I finally figured out but I kind of unfortunately.
Get out too late to save some of the most important relationships in my life at that point. Yeah, I was call that collateral damage. Yeah, let's talk about reunions for a minute. I know yours has had its ups and downs and so can you tell us how you found your biological family, how it went and where it's at now? Since 2006, I've been in reunions with my maternal side and that again was the result of getting the information from the
private investigator. Met my mother person for the first time in 2007, we had talked for about a year before that and we had all of the trepidation, all of the approaching each other really cautiously and then we went into it, really strongly. And we exchanged hundreds of emails, text messages, Just just this whole who would we were getting to know each other and we also were insecure about it
and thought, okay? Maybe maybe when we finally meet what is it going to be like, we had every reason to believe it was going to be really wonderful and it was when we connect it in person and my family was there, my wife and my kids were there at the time as well. They got to meet her to meet my aunt, and my sister and my grandmother. So it was it was a really nice time and when you mention it It going up and down, it really did.
There were a few times, it went really badly, really wrong and Brought up a lot of distress and each of us. And a lot of behaviors toward each other that were toxic. It was no way to navigate it in terms of we weren't equipped for it as I guess, what? I'm, yeah, I wasn't any manual on how to do it, so it went up and down in and out, and at times, it got really bad and at times it would sail along and be wonderful. And it went on like that back
and forth for for several years. And then, finally, in 2021, it kind of broke down towards our time. When we were moving to Florida from Massachusetts and it hasn't really been restored with her since then. But I've maintained that relationship with my sister. That's my half brother from from her side and also with her husband. So I stay in contact with them.
I had one chance to meet my uncle in person on her side and one of my cousin's, a couple of my cousins and have not had any real contact with them since then, which I felt as yearning for. Like, I really wanted to do that and to be more a part of their lives. Somehow, if I can manage to do that, But the couple times that I've tried I haven't just been kind of mild polite interest, maybe though that's you. Okay. But not a lot of. Yeah. Oh I'd like to know you or let's talk.
There hasn't been anything like that coming out of it. So what do you think went wrong with your mom? Like was it unmet expectations or it was definitely it was partly that she had a fantasy idea of what reunions would be like. Hmm. And sometimes it was that way in other times, it's felt and not as well received by People in my family, and it made her very, very uncomfortable and insecure. So she would react, which made me react to drove us apart. It would take a while to restore
that. I think she's always struggled with feeling worthy of being in my life and as felt like the other people in my life, maybe hadn't given her all the room she had, she had wanted. So the expectation kind of been that we would just sail off wonderfully. It always be really close seamlessly. Yeah, I had that too, right? I had this fantasy in my mind. Oh, I'll move to Texas and I'll live in the house. Three Doors Down from then and we'll see each other hundreds of
times. It'll be great. Yeah. And it was hard to disabuse myself of that but I think it a largely did have to do with expectation. I think it had to do with communication which I sometimes can struggle with yeah, being the neuro-diverse person but also somebody who's insecure. I don't always have the clearest communication with people and And even though I can talk to a roomful of people sometimes
interpersonally, it's tough. And there were times that manifested to and I think the whole thing overall, just led to the collapse of the reunions, unfortunately between us So you met a brother recently? Yeah so I how did that go was that the first time you had met him? I was first time meeting him in terms of my father's side because he was on my father's side. I hadn't connected with them until late 2021.
And so the space the number of years between the reunions with my birth mother and finally connecting with my late father's family was about 14 years and it took that long because I had carried Impressions from what I'd heard. Heard from her. And this thought that maybe he didn't really want me. Now, he had passed away in 1988 so I never had any chance to wow. So, how old was he? When he passed 33?
Wow. Yeah, I had thought, well, he was young, but what I found out, I couldn't find any details about it just that you died in San Diego 1988 when I would have been 19 and I thought, well, let me look around a little bit. I wasn't any good at searching, I don't know how to do it. I couldn't find anything. But it turned out that while I was thinking all I was probably his only child. He actually it had five more Sons. Wow, none of them knew about me. That was, oh my god.
Do you know about you? What was that? Did he know, did you yes? Okay. Yeah, he knew he was 16. When I was born. Mmm. Yeah, he remembered. And, as I've talked to members in his family, I'd say that sounds strange because they were members. My family, they would say things like, I remember your birth mother come into our house with her parents. The day, that that discussion took place was going to happen with you. She was pregnant with you.
I thought boy, that's really weird in heavy to hear something like that. So do you know what happened? During that discussion? Did they reveal? And I don't know, I do know the one thing which is it my mother's side? One of her brothers had wanted to adopt me to keep the family and either he was too young or something was determined to be unreasonable about that.
Yeah. And he didn't happen, I don't know much about this deliberation that would have taken place but I do know that it was obviously the I think the grandparents my grandparents who were the deciding factor there on my mother's side, that's part of the know they're both still alive. Other side, they both passed one of them. I'd always thought was my grandfather was part of this decision on my father's side and turns out he had actually passed away in 1968 year before.
I was born, I was another man, she was married to when I was relinquished. So he actually had something to do with the decision of where which was weird to realize that because I'd always thought it was my grandfather and it wasn't him. So what advice would you give somebody that's thinking about reuniting? I would always tell somebody who wants to do it that they should do it, if that's what they really want to do. I'm not a naysayer about reunions.
I don't counsel anybody to stay away from it. I will certainly let people know that it's complex. Its Dynamic and it's gut-wrenching, and if you thought it was hard enough, growing up as an adoptee, wait till you put your natural family into it.
And then the Collision of all these elements is Is just, there's just no way to be fully prepared for what that'll be like, you just can't imagine it. So you're actually in it and experiencing it and of course, it's different for every single one of us. So I would say that I encourage people to go ahead with it because there there may be other more than one reason they want to do it, right. Some people do want to do this for medical data and things like
this. I kind of talked myself about that a little bit and I realized no I really do want to form relationships with people that I think, is where People tend to give more advice and say don't have expectations. Don't this and don't that I'm not somebody that advises people not to have expectations because I'm not able to do that for myself, to say, I just won't have expectations that I can't do that. I always have expectations. I'm going to be honest about it so I couldn't really Council
somebody else. Not to, when I'm not able to do that, I would just say though to be aware that you'll need a lot of support from people who understand what this experience is like. So yeah, do what you can to be connected with people, who've gone through it, which means you do have to talk to other adoptees. If you've never done that. Hmm, you won't be able to find out through reading a book, what it's going to be like and you even forgot what it was like for them.
Sure. But you'll need the support people because there will be probably times it goes off the rails, like it did for me of the other times. It's just soaring the stratosphere and don't think it's the most amazing thing ever or or anything in between. Or it may never get off the ground at all. And that's its own particular type of grief. That's the give about these expectations so hard, not to have them. I just don't know how you can not have them. And there are doors slam.
There are so many things, but if you can find support from people in person, support is great. There's a way to do it to meet these people if not. Mhm, there are some great online resources here for people, but I think it's just important to talk to people that know what that experience is like and who can console you. And things might get really hard. Yeah, I think you know a couple of the key things is communication like you were saying feeling like you can communicate with them.
I felt like I couldn't you know really tell my birth mother, you know how I was feeling. In fact, she would kind of go behind my back and talk to my husband at the time and be like why is she doing this? Why is she? You know, and I was like oh I feel like I'm being normal like this is me sorry yes. Sorry it was very uncomfortable. Durable. But, but I felt like I couldn't be truthful with her and say some things as well, things back. Yeah, yeah, I have a thing.
I had didn't think about was after reunions then what's going to happen? That's the other thing is kind of in your mind, kind of thinking like is this person going to be in your life? If possible, all those type of things? Like I didn't even know I was like, okay what are my kids going to call her? They have a grandma and grandpa you know, what are we going to? How are you going to fit? Very confused.
That's really hard. And yeah, because we tend to think of families in these ways suddenly you have more family but they're a different kind of family. They're just like their indispensable or Dare dispensable. Hmm. You don't want to get rid of a kind of a fit. Well my siblings that was easy like you can have five thousand brothers and sisters you know that's easy. But as far as the parent role you know it was just kind of like whoa, I didn't think about this at all.
It's like hitting the brick wall. All, I found that with my told My adoptive parents about finding her boy that was uncomfortable and I became the person in the room that had to reassure them that I love them. And, you know, you know, the story goes I was yeah I remember that very clearly because my birth mother wanted me to have that conversation with them in order to continue our
relationship. So I have really kind of had no choice but to tell them and I did and it was very painful for them but You put me in a position. I don't think adoptees should fairly have to be in that position. Yeah, it's okay. I still love you that's hard. And yeah, because we know we know what this role of this burden and gratitude that we have we're not supposed to be there to assure a reassure, our
parents of their importance. That's that's kind of what put us in this situation to begin with. Yeah, for a lot of us anyway, was we were building a family for somebody who was in a state of loss because they couldn't do it. It and now they're going to feel all this insecurity and suddenly you have to step into the role of tell him, it's okay. Yeah. I still think of you this way and it's really not fair for us
to be in that situation. So your birth mother basically forced you to tell your adoptive parents. Otherwise she wasn't going to have a relationship with you that? Yes that's true. Wow that was she didn't do it on kindly but when I think about it now she didn't ask me whether I wanted to do it or not. It was just You really need to do this. Otherwise I don't feel comfortable continuing this by thinking. Now I would have probably had a different conversation with her about it.
Yeah. But I also it's this Incognito thing adoptees, too late. I don't want anybody my family to know I'm doing this. Yeah, which I hate, but I did it. I know. So, I wish nobody did. But I know many of us are trying not to hurt anyone, but at the same time, trying to and get answers and be true. To yourself too. And it's so difficult to juggle all of that, you put yourself in the back seat or in the farthest away. Roll and go, I'll put all of them upfront.
She wants me to tell them. I'll tell them. They want to know, they're still important. I'll tell them I'll sit in the back and see what happens and so that's how that went. So you're involved in a lot of adoptee groups. What made you seek out these groups in the first place? And what did you find there that helped you? I found them through Facebook which was a brand new thing for me back in. 321.
I originally had joined to look up some things that my wife said were important to my daughter and I thought to look up the top, these groups didn't know what I would find is I've never really talked to adopted people before he even though I'd grown up with. So and suddenly, I was in this really big group of people and they were talking about all these things and I was looking at it reading all of this stuff and thinking. What's that? What's that? What's that?
And within a very short amount of time, it led to me coming out of the fog kind of dramatically within weeks of being in this platform at all in the adoptee community. And once I hit that point, I thought these connections I'm making that they were just really fledgling connections than I had no idea. Anyone was I had no idea who I was. I decided to join a couple more in one of them was farsighted up, please.
We're friend, invited me into that group and it was still a small group at the time about 3035 people, maybe it it just started. Yeah, about a month of joining it was a whole different experience for me to do this sort of thing, but looking at you on a zoom screen and that's what I was suddenly doing with adoptees and I hadn't done that before and the exposure and the experience of talking than listening. I found was was something that was a really natural feel and fit.
For me, and I ended up facilitating in the group and then conducting interviews and group joining some other spaces and doing something similar. Yeah, and I found that one of the things I'm have a real affinity for as making connections, Reaching out to a lot of people and getting to know people and that is often been the result of seeing people in the calls and saying, I want you to feel comfortable after the call and I contact them and reach out see how they're doing.
How was it for you being in a call like this and experiencing this? Yeah, and leads to more depth of connection leads to other people, starting to become familiar with who you are. Yeah. And feeling more comfortable with you. And then you go into one group, you see them in there as well.
And And pretty soon there's this kind of this sort of collegial thing and I don't mean it like in the sense of like a club but it you start to get comfortable with the number of people that you see all over the place and it feels good because you know that you can depend on them for certain level of support. You can be there for them for certain level of support and for me that all started with with Facebook and and getting into the zoom calls and Fireside adoptees.
And eventually here was me In people in person and joining it, adoptees connect of Derry New Hampshire up here and getting to know, people even even more closely in real life and seeing how important that sort of connection is and how indispensable that really is. And all of that together has meant the experience for me, has been largely one of moderating facilitating and Connecting People. Yeah, because I like, I like to listen to people, I like Allow
them a chance to speak. Never thought I had anything deeply profound to say about being an adoptee. But I feel like one thing I do know how to do that. I think it's because of my career and how I've been on Zoom for all these years before this happened because I knew how to make people comfortable in situations like this where they had to talk. Yeah. Just to allow them a chance to be heard or seen and so that
that's really. I feel like the most I have to contribute at this point is just having people A comfortable in a space and to a degree safe. I'm not saying spaces are safe because I know some of them are not safe and oh, none of them. Can never really have one under percent me. Right. But you can't have people more comfortable in some spaces than another's. And if I can do something to to allow that to happen, then I feel like I'm doing the right thing.
So that's the importance for me of connecting with people online. Were you surprised at the level of trauma that you saw I saw coming into these groups. Or are you expecting that? No, did not excuse. You didn't know. I had it either. I didn't either. Yeah, that was crazy. I found out within weeks. I remember when I joined the first group, I was in and it was a big group, four, five, six, thousand people. So, I would see these
interactions. I remember trying to compose composed of post in sitting on it for about 3 days because I was so afraid. Somebody was going to come after me for it. Revising it and writing it and taking things out of it and toning it down. And finally going, okay, I'm just going to put it up there that it all had to do with the reactivity. Sometimes people have in spaces and sometimes the civility isn't there. Unfortunately and And I know,
you know, exactly, don't know. Most people have been through that, unfortunately, and it can make for a really uncomfortable experience for somebody who does want to connect. My did want to connect. I thought I can't say just anything. I have to really be conscientious of what I say that turned out serve me.
Well, because when I started working in the adoption trauma Network, I found I had to be very circumspect about what I would say and what I would watch other people say sometimes Times. They will say things, too, and if you're moderating or being an administrator in a certain rule, you can't have people saying certain things to each other too, because they'll also activate each other or other
members in space. Yeah. So the trauma manifestation that I saw was completely a shock to me. But I started to understand that I was having it too. I didn't know that before. I mean it was always there before but I didn't know what it was till I was suddenly seeing it confronted by it. So no, I was not prepared at all for what? It look like inside Space is like that.
Yeah. Is that kind of what, you know, made you so passionate about becoming leaders and a lot of these groups was seeing the pain and hurt and just wanting to help or like what is your why behind getting so involved? So that's an interesting question because I've never approached anyone about being a leader in a group. I've entered into the groups and I've had a natural fit with
people in the group. And there have been times where I had to reach out to people who led certain segments of the group and then they approached me about leading in the group. But we're Fireside. It was just, I went in and I was in the zoom calls and I was participating. And mandelbaum said he did just something that I really would like for you to do in this space. I have no idea. What I'm doing? I didn't know I was doing anything.
Yeah, so I started to do that but I wasn't I never could have imagined, that would happen. Yeah, the adoption trauma Network. I went in to talk to decide by a joint and I was talking to to the admins about something and we got conversation rolling over a number of weeks months. And it was finally, I'd like for you to consider doing this in this space for us. And I had to sit on that for a long time. So I didn't know. With her, I was equipped to do that and it takes a while to
learn to do that. Yeah. Yeah. I still don't feel like I'm great at some of these roles. I know, right? The involvement piece. I thought I was excited by the same thing happen with adoptees connect. I just went to join a group of people and found out that person I connected with who was running the group said, oh, I know you from Fireside. I'm looking to hand the group off. Would you like to run it? Wow. So again, it was just this thing that happened and I'm very appreciative of it.
Opportunities like that because I realize not everybody gets a chance to do that. Yeah. Where's the across multiple? Things like that? I know that doesn't happen very often. All right, I've never never taken that for granted. I've never felt worthy of that. And sometimes, sometimes I get kind of shy about talking about that because I feel like, oh, you're going to die. You're gonna tell them you do this 2 and this 2. And you can feel kind of awkward
sometimes. Like, why are you out there? I'm not. Trying to make a fuss in front of people at all. I just yeah. For some reason, I I've had these opportunities that I again, like I said, I really appreciate them but I don't always know how they come about. Yeah, yeah. So in your personal opinion, do you think it's possible to heal from the Primal wound or that you can totally come out of the fog? Or we always in the fog, a little bit. I think we're always in the fog
a little bit. I do think though there is a point like for me where you're on the other side of it and you're not going to go back into. It doesn't mean all of the vestiges of it are gone but for me it's like on one side of the line, then suddenly I was on the other and I knew I couldn't go backwards, didn't mean everything was gone and cleared up for me though, but I thought it was a thought, okay? This is all laid out here.
Not really didn't mean that was resolved, it just that I thought there's no more surprises. I know what's going on and then another friend of mine helped me see that know you're going to keep having these Revelations you're out of the fog but you're still in the fog. Yeah. Because you don't know fully what the reality was. So you can find yourself confronted with things that you didn't having to make new discoveries and Revelations are going to come to you about those things and they did.
So I feel like even though I definitely am out of the fog, I would say mean There's some things I would never go back to, and can't go back to my life for it. Because this anymore, I still am finding that I make these discoveries that I had no idea. We're going to be there. Yeah, I find having the podcast, like, you know, like, oh, I had this great Revelation. I'm going to bring to everybody and then Karma's, like, well, you didn't, you don't totally
have it down. So here, let's give you this too and you know, it's like I go through it again. And yeah that's what's frustrating for me is I'm like I thought I was over this. I thought I was over this. The narratives again so frustrating. Sometimes I find that it's like facilitating, Zoom calls and things like this. I'm listening intently because those moments come along all the time, and my eyes will get big. And I think. Wow.
I hadn't thought of that. I hadn't experienced that part of this before, or come to that realization. Yeah, so that's always happening right? In terms of the Primal wound question? No, I don't think we heal from that. I think we can. Twist and adjust to some things and desensitized parts of it because it's not just the somatic wound, doesn't just go away with things. People might find that that are helpful certainly it should be done because I mentioned this somatically the body
experiences, this right? You can lessen the impact of that. For sure what happens though is even when that has been addressed as well as it can be. You're still confronted with the loss, the reality of the loss to of your other identity of your heritage family. Yeah, that isn't resolved by by your feelings, getting better or your body and your nervous system not reacting. As much doesn't restore, the things that you really lost that
you need to grieve. Hmm. And also, we talked a lot about pre verbal aspect of this. The self didn't really exist before the trauma. So that there's no healing back to a self before that because there wasn't any such self. Yeah. So all you really in my estimation can do is say this is always going to hurt to a degree and I'm always going to feel this loss. What can I build on top of this?
Now that allows me to go forward but be honest about the fact that these for me, I'm always going to be aware of what I don't have and should have had and I we can talk about well but that life didn't really ever East. Yeah yeah I can talk about that but in an existential way the way it confronts you as a person you do have to Grapple with the fact that your identity is really contingent, meaning it could have been very much the case you ended up being somebody
else. You don't home with another family. Yeah. You be a different person for a kept person. That's not really the reality because there was no question. They were going to go home with that family for us. If somebody else said, I hate to say this cruelly Signed up for a child line above our parents. We would have gone somewhere else. Yeah. And become different people. So our identity is always been a question mark what are we going to turn out to be?
So I think to say oh yeah but those are things you can't really worry about I think you need to confront those at some point out. How arbitrary your identity formation really is an adoptee because it just might have been the case. Would have been the case that you could have ended up being adopted by people. Two doors down. Yeah, and you wouldn't be the same person, you are now. Yeah, did you ever growing up?
Look around? Like, I always would think, you know, when I was dating somebody like, I could be related to you, and I don't know that. You know, that was always like in the back of my mind, like, what if I found out you were related to me? I remember thinking that is the adulthood. I didn't think about it so much growing up, but I remember in adulthood seen this person at work. I can sort of been like 19, 1997, or so. Something.
So way before I 10 years before I found my family and thinking I actually asked her, I said, is there any chance that I'm related to you? Honey that wasn't any romantic thing or anything, which is typed saw this resemblance. I thought, and I've never done that before. Ask somebody and know it didn't turn out.
We were as far as we know, but that's the only time I had experienced that but I hear often about people talking about And the real reality about especially depending on the proximity of the geographic proximity to where your birth family really was that people could end up in that situation, you know, it does happen. Yeah. Those are things people don't think about that.
We think about you know yeah but the doctor you definitely so so in closing, if you could give any advice to adopt these that are struggling with adoption and coming out of the fog, what would that be? I think there's a lot of resources. I'm sure Community has been the resource for me. I know people have had varying degrees of success with the community, because there are times when it's when it can be tough.
Same thing with the therapy, I'm not an expert on therapy, and I've gone in and out of it, and I've found it helpful in to varying degrees, but I'm not, I'm not somebody that can speak authoritatively on it, but I know it's helped a lot of people. So I would say that if you are
going to do that, it's best. If you can to find An adoptee trauma-informed therapist just adoption trauma-informed, but if you can find an adoptee was actually trauma-informed and it's probably the best case they're in that sense. Yeah. The community again like I said, can be very beneficial for people when they don't have any sounding boards they haven't had any any way of talking about any of this, and I think there's a generational thing here.
Meaning if you think back in, this is going to sound kind of strange dialogue. Looking at this ancient Greek sense of Hectic of talking back and forth with people was a way of figuring things out. Now we say, well if it's online, you're not going to figure it out the right way because you can't read people fully and they won't be disclosing things to you and it still can be the best vehicle you may have at your
disposal. Not everybody's going to have the ability to go find a therapist or do something in person. So the groups can be very effective if you know how to approach them and navigate them and learn how to be cautious yourself about how you feel in those. This is so I would say to have the greatest support that you can coming from the therapy if that's if it works well for you and you're able to do that because it can be a privilege to do that.
To like I said, not everybody, unfortunately has access to that but also the community can be great. If that's what you have at your disposal, then I would encourage people to Avail themselves of that as well. And the in-person groups like adoptees connect have been really helpful for me. So I would, I would say those things are most helpful along with the of course. All the Memoirs that have come out of the great things that adoptees are saying speaking about their stories.
Yeah. And their perspective and the ones that are in the clinical therapeutic spaces that are writing and giving presentations, I would definitely lean on them as well. Yeah, well thanks for coming on today. I know it seems that the male adoptee population aren't as open to telling their stories it seems like so I totally appreciate you doing that today. Thank you. I noticed that as well. Yeah, so thanks for coming on. Thank you so much, Melissa.
Thanks Greg for coming on the show today, and making such a huge difference in the adoptee community. I always find it. Interesting how similar, but different, all our stories are so much in common, but in different ways and if you are an adoptee listening today, wondering how you can help because there are a lot of ways that you can do that. You can contact me at mind, your own Karma, at gmail.com, and come.
Come on the show and tell your story another way to make an impact is only going to take you one minute. Go on your listening platform and rate and review this podcast. When you do that, it helps the algorithms. It helps get the word out and it helps mind your own Karma. Come up in searches in Google and such places. The Third Way, is get involved. Get in those groups on Facebook connect with people in your
area. As We adoptees join together, even with the constellation, our voices, get louder. So those are just a few ways that you can make a difference. If you would like to know more about mind your own Karma, you can go to my website, mind your own Karma.com, there you will find a little bit more about me and what I'm trying to do with this podcast, some exciting things coming up on the 29th of April, I am being joined by Danielle got debt.
Healing Tree and larae Gerald. The chameleon, they have both been on the show and we are doing an event bright where we will be talking about different healing modalities such as somatic, mindful guided imagery mind-body, practices breathwork, and more. We will be sampling, some of these modalities and also have Q&A. So come join us. You can find the information on my mind, your own Karma, Facebook page, hope to see See
you there as always. Take what you need and leave what you don't and always remember to mind your own Karma. I'll see you next time.