S6 Ep.5: What Don't We Know?

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It's October 27, 1983. You know, every single thing that could be searched was being searched. On Old Harbor Road in Anchorage, Alaska, the family home of Robert Hansen is being ripped apart by Detective Maxine Farrell. and the Alaska State Troopers. They're searching for anything that can connect Hansen to the murders of two dancers, Sherry Morrow and Paula Goulding.

I was just in the front room there, and I think I went into the bedroom, and I looked around in the bedroom, searched under the bed, anything in the walls, to see if we can find anything. We know we're looking for jewelry. And they're looking for a weapon. I'm Dr. Michelle Ward, and this is Mind of a Monster, The Butcher Baker, Episode 5, What Don't We Know?

Troopers were dividing the floor space up by areas so they could search for floors, for fibers, for hair samples, for stuff like that. You're hearing patrol cop... Greg Baker. He'd already searched Hansen's house once before while investigating the rape and kidnapping of 17-year-old sex worker Cindy Paulson four months earlier. But that first search was very different from this one.

It was led by Greg Superior, who believed Hansen's story of a money dispute with a prostitute. I remembered seeing a mini-14, which is a... a Ruger semi-automatic .223. That wasn't pursued at the time. This weapon Greg thinks he saw back then, the Mini-14 .223 rifle, It's since become crucial. 223 casings have been found in the graves of the two murdered dancers. I want to know what author Leland Hale, who wrote the book Butcher Baker, can tell us about this search.

So Leland, they're looking for the .223 rifle because that ties Hansen to the murders, but are they looking for anything else? They knew one of the cases of the dancers, Sherry Morrow, that she always had a particular necklace, and that necklace was not in the graveside. It was not there. So that gives the possibility that he may have kept it.

as well as mementos. Oh, this is the same necklace that Sherry's boyfriend told Maxine Farrell about. That's right. And they do find some stuff that's interesting. They find some flight maps. But they don't take much of those flight maps. They just think, oh. It's got all these X's on it. These are where he goes hunting. Makes sense. He's got a plane marked a great hunting spot so you can return to them later on. And they certainly found a cache of weapons, but they didn't find...

either of the weapons they were looking for. So that's really troubling. While investigators are over at the house, four miles away at headquarters, Hansen himself is being interviewed by task force leader Glenn Flothie.

and Sergeant Darrell Gallion. Here, too, frustration is beginning to mount. We're talking about a lot of people over a long period of time. Now, you're telling me every one of these girls have lied just to get you in trouble, and they all... in their own minds made up the same story? I did. No, I understand that. It's five hours in, and they've led Hansen through his colorful past.

And let me just remind you of the highlights now. An arrest for rape and kidnapping of a young sex worker in 1971. Assault with a deadly weapon on a real estate secretary that same year. two other possible kidnapping and rapes between 1972 and 1975, and the kidnapping of Black dancer Christy Hayes in 1979. So Leland, they've taken him through quite the rap sheet, huh?

It was masterful because they wanted to lead him up to the present moment. And each time he's given them the same old story, money dispute with the sex worker. Two things worth noting about this interview. One, they kind of knew that... You know, Hansen had this tendency to want to be cooperative and helpful. And so he voluntarily said, I'll talk about it. Okay. Then the second thing was they had their hands somewhat tied behind their back.

because Hansen had an attorney for the Cindy Paulson case. So they couldn't talk about the Cindy Paulson case without going through as an attorney. So that most recent case where they have the most evidence, they can't pin him down? Right. Glenn Flothie, the lead investigator, has rarely talked about this case in the last 40 years.

But we have transcripts of an interview he did behind closed doors in 1984 that's never been heard in public before. And what he says gives us so much insight into how he felt at key points during this case. Here we've used an actor to voice his words as he talks about the restrictions placed on the interview with Robert Hansen. We weren't allowed to talk about it at all because he had got an attorney for the Paulson case.

We'd have to go to that attorney first. So during the whole interview, that was the link between the present and the past. And we were not allowed to discuss that link. I mean, we couldn't look at him right in the face and say, we know you're the killer. Tell me the truth. I think there's a problem. Well, you know, what I... Like I said, I'm not going to go back.

and try to to prosecute an old case from back in 1971 i simply trying to understand both sides of the story here and uh here if you're lying to me it's going to put a real real wall between us When I was listening to this interview, Leland, it's interesting because it kind of reaches this like stalemate. Daryl, who at the beginning is just nice as pie. He's getting Hanson to open up about his childhood and trying to pretend he's on his side.

But then toward the end, he's just totally changed. He's hammering him. And Hanson's getting quieter and quieter. But they can't. make that next leap. They felt like they were interviewing him with one hand tied behind their back. That's what it all boils down to. You're treating me like I'm some kind of a moron sitting here. And I'd like to think that I'm smarter than that. I'm not saying you're a mom. You're saying that... Did I believe what those girls said? Uh, sir, I think...

I want to get clarified in my mind. I think I'd better, because this is serious as hell. Sure it is. I think I would like to talk to an attorney and get him to tell me. It's all right to talk to you about some back-passing. Sure. I did do that. We shall see. Okay, the time is now 1.56. Just continue the tape, folks, of the interview. Mr. Henson has asked for an intern.

I didn't do that, Hansen says. We shall see, Daryl Gallion replies. Right after this tape stops, that's when Glenn Flothie arrests Hansen. It was an on-the-spot arrest. We got him on insurance fraud. Got him on 10 burglaries, filed on three, and we got him on all the Paulson charges. He was indicted on all those, but none of the murders. You heard right. At this point, they didn't charge him with murder.

And that's because it's 3 p.m. in the afternoon on the 27th of October, and they are still mid-search at Hansen's house, and they haven't found anything to incriminate him in the murders of Sherry Morrow and Paula Goulding.

So let's go back to Old Harbor Road. The light is starting to fade on this fall afternoon. We're going to pick up with an Alaska state trooper who's part of the search, a Lieutenant Pat Kasnik. Our team spoke with him in 2020. I came to the residence in the evening, probably around 6 o'clock, and the search had been being conducted pretty much all day and they hadn't found the...

key evidence that they were looking for. And the only place that had not been searched was the attic. This is the same attic Greg Baker saw a ladder next to during the Cindy Paulson search at the time. His superior wasn't interested. I actually asked the investigator if he wanted to climb up and look. I mean, an attic's a very common place to hide things, you know.

And he said, no, he says, Mr. Hanson's been cooperative enough. There's no sense to push him. But now, four months later, it's their last chance. I mean, that was our one shot. to get in there and see what we could find to make the connection between Hansen and these victims. It was so important. I mean, so there was a lot of pressure.

The attic runs the entire length of the house, 1800 square feet of ceiling beams and thick green insulation. It's not packed with stuff like many attics, but it's dusty and unpleasant. As you move through it, you're kicking out remnants of the insulation and the dust. As best I recall, I had gone down maybe 10 or 12 rows of the insulation where the ceiling joists were.

and they were just lying there. The Mini-14 was one of those rifles in there. There was also a .357 handgun. That weapon had been identified by Cindy Paulson. Bingo. But as of yet, no cigar. There's still the rest of the massive attic to search. We were getting close to being done with the search, and I was right around the... opening where you come up into the attic and pull back some of the insulation and there was a plastic bag there with jewelry in it.

And it kind of sent a chill up my spine because I knew immediately that this is going to be really important. One of them was an arrowhead necklace. Detective Maxine Farrell. He's shouting, I've got it. So everybody is rushing and we got the jewelry and we kind of glazed at it and yes, that's the jewelry. What's the feeling at the moment?

The main thing was a necklace. There's a necklace in there that, you know, that's what I was looking for. I was elated that this was the jewelry, this was the man. We have the right man.

Glenn Flothie sends the .223 Mini-14 rifle to the FBI for ballistics testing to see if the shells found in the graves of Sherry Morrow and Paula Goulding came from this weapon. So, Leland, there's a fantastic little snafu here, isn't there? The rifle actually gets lost in the mail for a while. You imagine that, right? This is the weapon that we need to target him.

Poor Glenn Flothy. This crucial piece of evidence tying Hanson to the murders is, surprise, surprise, lost to the United States Postal Service. Turns up it was on some shipping dock somewhere and they found it. And then they were able... To get the match. So they did match the casings from the graves to Hansen's rifle. Yes, they have his weapon and they have shell casings. But, you know, it's not like they don't have him.

If you're anything like me, you are screaming right now. What? How do they not have him? And I get you, but let's go into that for a second. Because Flothy still doesn't file. murder charges against Hansen. And here he explains why. Rather than gamble and throw in a murder and lose a murder case, because all we still had was a gun at that point. Just because he's got a gun doesn't make him a murderer.

There's always a chance he could have been flying with somebody else. So we knew we needed a little more. So what we're going to do was slowly piece together the jewelry we found in the house. We had to track that down, see if we could. get the victims to identify it. Glenn Flothie, the measured, professorial, non-cop-like cop. But his play here is genius for a number of reasons. One of which is that as soon as he charges Hansen with murder,

He then has to hand over all his evidence to the defense, and he doesn't want to hand over any with holes. On that note, I think it's time for you to meet Hansen's defense attorney. This is Joe Evans.

I've practiced law in Alaska and Washington State for 47 years now and very quickly got involved in practicing in the villages in northwest Alaska. And I, quite frankly, have found it very rewarding to work with the Yupik and Athabaskan people. Joe is a city attorney out in the native villages of Alaska.

And this is his passion. He spends weeks without internet connection trying to make things better for the community up there. Along with his colleague Fred Dewey, Joe met Hanson when he was originally arrested for the rape and kidnapping of Cindy Paulson in June 1983. I recall Fred coming in to me and talking about his first meeting with Robert Hansen and I asked Fred what do you think because you obviously you've got to make some credibility assessment.

for your client and Fred said, well, I think I believe him. He impressed me as a quiet, somewhat meek person, very well-spoken. His explanation was that it was a business transaction with a prostitute. He paid her X dollars and then she wanted more money and they had a fight about it. You know, I have to admit, I...

It sounded, the part to me that I didn't understand is why is she running naked down 4th, 5th Avenue near Merrill Field? But again, that's not my... job as a criminal defense attorney my job is to listen to my client do the best i can to present him in a light that will get law enforcement focus off of him

I guess I'm just really interested in the fact that you and Fred felt he was credible. Why do you think that was? Was it his demeanor or the fact that he had a family? It's really a mixture of all of those things. He ran a bake shop down on, I think it was H Street. I think he had, was it two children? A son and a daughter. He lived in a fairly modest home.

And, frankly, when you combined all of those things, it sure seemed to me that the sort of activities initially that they wanted to investigate him for seemed a little bit far-fetched. He seemed respectable to you. Yes. There is that word again, respectability. It's starting to feel like code for the assumption that someone is truthful because of their status.

But I'm not picking on Joe here. If we're all honest with ourselves, don't we all do this? Don't we all make this assumption? So then four months later in October, Hansen contacts you again. And this is after his house has been searched and after he's been arrested by Glenn Flothie. I actually heard from him that he had been arrested.

And as I recall, initially, because that's what the police were talking about, it was the Cindy Paulson matter. And then Fred, he said, I think there's more to it than that. And we really didn't know what the more to it was until I saw the return of the search warrant. The officers have to list what they seized during the search.

and of course they listed not only weapons but they listed maps pieces of jewelry newspaper clippings id cards It was clear that this is more than just the Cindy Paulson kidnapping and sexual assault. Was that the moment where you were like, whoa, this is a much bigger deal than I ever thought? I'm now involved with something incredibly complicated. This was certainly my first oh shit moment.

But my shut the fuck up moment came later. Remember that, because that shut the fuck up moment is right around the corner for us, too. In the meantime, Joe and Fred can only work with the charges Hansen is under, and as of yet, these don't include murder.

So as they wrestle with a defense against they're not sure what, lead investigator Glenn Flothie continues to build his case. Up until that time, it was go, go, go, a mile a minute, mile a minute, push, push, push. 12 hours a day, seven days a week, scamming the DAs, trying to do this, trying to do that, trying to pitch a hat and cane, song and dance, and the whole routine. And finally, I sat down with Pat.

That's Pat Dugan, the assistant DA who put together the search warrant with Flothie. They're sitting in Glenn's office going over the evidence from Hansen's house, and Flothie pulls out the flight maps. There's handwritten X's dotted across the surface. I think then is when it finally hit me. When I was sitting there talking to Pat, I sort of got a cold chill and it was very quiet. I started pulling cases.

And the first one I pulled that was up on the wall was this Joanna Messina. Joanna Messina was a woman who went missing in Seward in 1980. Her body was found in July of the same year. But Seward is a several hours drive from Anchorage, so there's no official connection between her case and the case of Sherry Morrow and Paula Goulding. But on Hansen's flight map, there's marks in and around Seward.

The investigator on that case was one Chuck Miller. I laid this map down on the table and I called the investigator over and I says, Chuck, why don't you show me where Joanna was buried? Because I didn't know. I mean, I knew generally the area, but I didn't know specifically the area. Chuck Miller walks over and looks at the map and he says, okay, now here's Seward and here's the railroad tracks and up here and oh, you've already got it marked.

There's an X right there. I told Chuck, I says, well, I didn't mark that, Chuck. Robert Hansen did. Because, you see, that's his map that we got out of his house. At that point, we realized that... We had an ex on there from Joanna Messina, Eklutna Annie, Sherry Morrow, and Paula Goulding. It was, oh my God, what has this man done? There are 22 X's on Hansen's map. The world is buzzing with AI tools, but instead of making things easier, they've made things overwhelming.

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You find the maps and you think, now there can't be 22 bodies out there. These are favorite hunting spots. You try to give yourself more reasons why it can't be than why it can. It just seems almost grotesque to think that these maps represent bodies. It's early 1984 in the Alaska State Trooper Office in Anchorage.

Lead investigator Glenn Flothie believes maps recovered from Robert Hansen's house show the location of up to 22 dead bodies, four of which have already been recovered. His voice here is read by an actor. We've got these X's, these bodies already found, and we feel that the bodies already found verify the map's authenticity as to gravesites. That's what they represent. So, at that point, we wanted to put more pressure on Hansen.

You see, when we first got the search warrant, the only guns we were allowed to seize was the Magnum used in the Paulson case, and a .223 used on Golding and Morrow. We didn't think we could... justify seizing all the weapons at his house. And he had like 30 something guns. It could be any one of those weapons that were used to kill any number of the victims over a 10 year period.

So we put together another search warrant, went to the judge. We told him the reason we wanted to search for the guns now is because Hanson could have called anybody else, go in the house and remove all the weapons, and come springtime, your honor. now we won't have these weapons to compare with the bodies we expect to find. We're telling the judge we have a serial murderer that's killed up to at least a minimum of 22 people. That's a pretty big supposition.

The judge approves the warrant. And I want to share something with you here that I think tells us so much about how high the stakes are at this point. We have a document from the Alaska State Troopers that is a dated sequence of events in this case. It's typed over 18 pages. And here, on January 13, 1984, the day Glenn Flothie goes to court, I can see it's already 1.40 p.m. when he approaches the DA's office to request a warrant.

They put it in front of the judge at 4.05 p.m. And at 7.28 p.m., the same night, Flothie and three of his colleagues served the warrant at Hanson's house. We went back. and sees all his ammunition, his ammunition reloading dies, his guns, rifles, and shotguns, and handguns and pistols, and sees all that stuff. Ready to go? And guess who got a copy of it the next day?

robert hansen did through his attorney he'd been advised that the search warrant had been served and now the police have the maps they know what they represent because right in the search warrant it spells out why they'd be doing it because they know there's bodies at each of those locations so i think that that was the turning point he realized that we weren't dummies that's my impression of when i think he truly believed that we meant business

that we had our shit together. As the pressure mounts on Hansen, the trial date for the rape and kidnapping of Cindy Paulson is set for just a month away. Well, now Hansen, this is going to be his first major trial. You realize, looking back, he'd never gone to trial on any of these cases. And we're ready. And then Cindy disappeared on us. Cindy Paulson.

Flothy hasn't yet filed murder charges. Instead, Hansen is going to trial for the kidnapping and rape of the 17-year-old sex worker just months before. But now... Flothie's key witness, the crucial piece of the puzzle for convicting Hansen, has gone AWOL overnight. The document from the Alaska State Troopers reads, 3rd of February, 1984.

Cindy Paulson moves out from Gentleman's Retreat Massage Parlor, doesn't advise Sergeant Flothy. Author Leland Hale. You know, they're getting reports that she's really strung out on cocaine and she's looking raggedy and she's lost weight. I remember Flothie talked about wanting to wean her off her pimp so that he became her support system. And I guess the question is, at this point, did he fail in doing that? So it's this...

very delicate, walked the line, and he knew he couldn't force her to do anything. And this is exactly how Glenn Flothie describes it. I could have gone and snatched her up, set her up, arrested her, and... You know, any number of things. I had to let her live her life, her lifestyle, and let her decide when the time was right. Because she trusted me. To call me to say, Glenn, I need your help. I've had enough.

The sparse words used on the Alaska State Troopers document belie a frantic week as Flothie and his colleagues attempt to find her. Quote, unable to locate Cindy Paulson, Cindy's whereabouts unknown. Witness Cindy Paulson's location is unknown, unquote. Then, with just two weeks to go until the trial, a call comes in. Part of his approach with Cindy...

Call me anytime. And she had his home phone number. And in fact, it wasn't just Glenn Flothy who was on the line. It was his wife. So his wife also... played a role and so you know ultimately she trusted him enough to say look you gotta come get me out of here so he remembers going there he's got backup

he takes her out and the pimp comes down and kind of looks at her and flothy says she's coming with me you know and off she goes and at this point now flothy He set up this sort of alternate living arrangement where she's living with a family. You know, and she's cooking and cleaning and all this stuff. Christian family. Turns out they go to the same church that Darla Hansen goes to. There's just no escape here. It's a small place, right?

We've got our witness off the street and ready to testify. And at that point, everything came to sort of a screeching halt. There was nothing from the defense. Up until that time, we... They're demanding to see the witness, demanding this and demanding that, trying to throw this out. And they're supposed to come over and view the evidence at the trooper office. And they schedule it twice. And both times they don't show up.

supposed to do the interview with Cindy Paulson, right? They've been harping about, and all of a sudden there's nothing from them wanting to do the interview. Joe, on the defense side, what's going on?

I believe Hansen contacted us the next week and said he wanted to speak to us, and we went out and spoke to him. Hansen, he's in jail this time. That's right. The only thing I remember is he wanted to clear the decks. or he wanted to explain things. Hansen asked you to get in touch with the DA's office to arrange a meeting. What do you think prompted Robert Hansen to do that? I think I told Robert to use an expression, the jig is up.

They have found in your home direct evidence of your involvement with at least four, if not five, women that had been murdered. So at this point, Robert, you were... ability to bargain is fairly limited but my concern and i expressed it to him i said Robert, I'm not sure that that's in your best interest now to go into an interview with the district attorney, because one, it's going to be very long.

And two, they're not your friends. They're looking to try and charge you with as many possible offenses, crimes, murders as possible. And that's not in your best interest. And he didn't get upset or angry with us. He just said, I understand that. I understand that this could not be in my best interest, but I want to do it. And we said, well, if you want to do it, you're the client.

So before we go on, you need to meet someone else. Until now, I've told you all about how Flothy is still building his case. And that's true. He is instrumental in this pretrial period. But he's not a lawyer.

So the guy who's brought in to prosecute for the state and work alongside Flothie is Assistant DA Frank Rothschild. The Mind of a Monster team spoke to Frank in 2020. The message to Robert Hansen was, you're not catching any break. He knew we found the map. He knew the guns we'd seized and what they were going to tell us. He knew that at some point we were going to...

go out into the wilderness where all these exes were with a team of dogs, and we were going to find more grave sites. He knew that the game was up. So now what? And the answer is the phone call that I get from his lawyer, Joe Evans, who says he wants to come in and talk with you folks. And he has certain rules and requirements in order to do this.

Hansen requests to be placed in a federal prison in the North, not the South. He wants everything dealt with in one court session rather than through protracted trials. He wants no tip-offs to newspapers. and he wants to come into the courtroom secretly, away from the press. So I discussed that with the higher-ups in the office, and we all realized, that's easy.

We can do all of that. That's going to save the state of Alaska years and years and years of prosecutions, of millions of dollars, of appeals, you name it. All of a sudden, boom. It's all going to be done. One, two, three. And Leland, this fits right in with his behavior, doesn't it? It does. Because we already know that when he was faced with the arson in Iowa in 1961, he copped a plea. In 1971, for the assault with a deadly weapon on the real estate secretary, he also copped a plea.

And in 1975, for the theft of a chainsaw, surprise, surprise, he copped a plea. There's this sense of him not wanting to get dragged. through a trial because a lot of evidence comes up at trial a lot of accusations come up at trial and i'm almost wondering if we're seeing that wimpy kid come out again

It reminds me of that intense embarrassment he would report feeling and he would go and hide and cry because he stuttered. It's almost an obsession with how he felt he was so made fun of as a teenager. He doesn't want to face anything. His stuttering and all that stuff is definitely a part of how he reacts to these criminal charges because there's a lot of embarrassment that's going to come out of that, of any of these cases.

Hansen uses the weekend before the interview to talk to his pastor. When the Mind of a Monster team spoke to this pastor in 2020, he said that Hansen asked him what kind of sins God forgives. The pastor replies, all manners of sins except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Hansen said, that's all I wanted to know. I think whatever your religion, just the thought of this.

That serial murder isn't as bad as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is challenging to say the least. But if Hansen is anything, he's consistent.

This has the distinct ring of copying the ultimate plea deal. It's the 22nd of February, 1984. The prosecution and the defense, along with Robert Hansen, Glenn Flothy, and Sergeant Lyle Hausman, file into a conference room at the DA's office. Are we on record? Yes, we are. This is Frank Rothschild. Sergeant, what time is it now? 8.50 a.m. I insisted that there be two tape recorders. We had two big reel-to-reel tape recorders because we didn't want to lose whatever it is he said to us.

Here in the District Attorney Conference Room, along with Mr. Robert Hansen, his counsel, Joe Evans, and Fred Dewey. Victor Crum, the District Attorney, is present, along with Sergeants Housman and Flothie. We wanted not only for confession, we wanted information where we could find bodies, how many bodies were there. We wanted to know what were they wearing? Did they say where they were from? Did you get any names?

There was a lot of information that we were seeking. I was the good cop. I was the guy who was going to just be friendly and nice, not be judgmental, get him to spill the beans, if you will. I'm wondering if Council had anything that you wanted to say before we began. I don't think so. I think we've had an opportunity in the last few days to meet with Mr. Hanson. So I believe at this point.

I need to go forward. All right. Well, why don't we start then with what will be freshest in mind, which is the cases that are pending now and from what happened in June of last year. Can you tell us how that all came about? You want me, sir, to start when I first met this Cindy Paulson, first time?

At this point, I want to make it clear to you that defense attorney Joe Evans, who we just heard there talking about his meetings with Hansen, he's expecting Hansen to admit to the Cindy Paulson kidnapping rape. He's also expecting Hansen to admit to the four murders they have evidence on. That is the unidentified body, Deb DeKlutna Annie, Joanna Messina from Seward, and the two Kinnick River bodies, Sherry Morrow and Paula Goulding.

And the prosecution is expecting the same, because from the search warrants and the legal documents around the case, there's an understanding between the two sides that there is enough evidence to prosecute those murders.

So they move on from Cindy Paulson to the case of Aklutna Annie. The first gal is a gal that I think was found by some power line employees. or something to this effect they found up here by Eklutna. Eklutna Annie is the unidentified woman recovered by Detective Maxine Farrell in 1980. And what you're about to hear is what happened to her, according to Hansen.

And let's be honest, his is the only side of the story anyone will ever hear. How was she killed? Tell me, tell me what happened with that. Gentlemen, I can't remember if I picked her up as a dancer or if she was a prostitute uptown. I just pointed down to her and said, now look, you do exactly what I tell you. And don't give me any problems whatsoever. But then Hansen's truck gets stuck. He tells this woman, the woman who will become a Clutna Annie, to get out and help him.

I told her to get out and so forth, and I tried to get the truck back a little bit further so I could get the hill out of there. And as I was starting to drive the truck back, she... starting walking down this way, you know, she started walking down the road and I remember I slammed the thing in gear there and shot out the key and ran. After and I caught up with her I grabbed her in a hair or whatever She had a big knife in her purse. I grabbed her her hands and And I tripped her down she was

She started screaming at me, you know, don't kill me, don't kill me. I said, I'm not going to kill you. Then thing just got out of hand. I can remember I was, she was laying face down. I just stuck her. Where? The back. I'm not trying to justify me. I'm totally wrong. But any girl that I was ever with like this is one. They ask if he remembers her name. Hansen doesn't. He doesn't remember most of their names.

Trying to maintain that calm and that non-reaction to horrific stories, that was hard. That was really hard. And he didn't have any emotion. I made clear that I wasn't expressing any emotion. It would be like... Oh, well, gee, Bob, now that you've told us about how you killed this woman and buried her, what was the next woman? And I would just be, you know, what was next? How'd the next one go, Bob? That's what it felt like.

Joe, you're Hansen's defense attorney. What was it like hearing him talk about the murders? The Moore became clear that the original story he had told us... He had left out a lot of detail. I mean, here's a guy who's sitting there and you've read the transcripts almost matter of factly talking about what he did to these women.

And whether they were prostitutes or... whatever makes no freaking difference but the way he talked about what he did to them was almost like the conversation you and i are having just an everyday conversation about what he did and how he planned it and so forth and so on After this first gal here, something about a clicking pom-pom horror line, you know, I found myself after a period of time back uptown looking again.

And I said, my God, Bob, it's... But God damn it, it's just like, I guess, like a monster's drawing a fire or whatever light, I'm back again. Hansen calmly and politely walks them through the four murders they can tie him to using evidence. He goes into great detail, but his story, his motivation remains the same, almost as if he's talking on repeat. This is him talking about Sherry Morrow, the young woman found with an ace bandage wrapped completely around her head and face.

I told her, you know, that she would not be hurt in any way, shape, or form if she would just go along with me. Then all of a sudden she just turned around and... trying to scratch me in the eyes and fight with me and so forth. And she started running, I caught her again. And I can't even remember how it happened, but somehow or other. I was sitting on my ass and she was just standing there screaming at me you know and I just pointed the gun up towards her and pulled the trigger.

He's trying to say it's all their fault. That's what he's saying. Don't blame me. They're the ones that brought this on to themselves. Well, forget that. That's ludicrous. He's abducting people. with the intention of having sex with them, whether they want to or not. And if they don't want to and they resist, his response is to kill them.

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On day one, we spent our time talking about the murders that we knew of and getting him to give the details of all of those. And then on the second day, on Thursday... That's when he told us, basically, that's it. That's all that I've done. There are no more. Nothing else to talk about. At the time he says, that's it. We knew that we had a map that was found in his headboard with over 20 X's on it. And we knew those weren't just random X's.

Those were places where he had left women in the wild. So I think that when he did that, I did a, oh, come on, Bob, kind of a thing. No, no, that's it. And on cue, Vic Crum, sitting next to me, he pulled out that prosecutorial finger. I think he stood up. Vic Crum, the district attorney and Frank's boss. We executed the agreement with you yesterday morning. That agreement was that you were to give us a full statement in your post cooperation.

convinced at this point that you've done that. So far, my impression that you've given us only the evidence on the two victims that we know for a fact are alive and that we're willing to come forward and testify. as well as the five victims that we found. But you need to understand that from your own flight charts that we got at your house, your flight charts... It has a little asterisk on it. Include the five places where we found bodies. Come springtime...

going to let this sit and we're going to go out there and we're going to be looking for some more graves. While that was happening, I was focused right on Hansen's face and I saw the hair on the back of his neck. stand up and I saw from all the way up all the way down what I could see the back of his neck turned really bright red and his face changed and At that moment, I saw not Bob the baker. I saw Bob the serial killer. I saw who the man was that had abducted and killed.

and tortured all of these women. There he was right across the table from me. Remember that shut the fuck up moment Joe Evans mentioned earlier? This is it. And I'm sitting here watching it because his... It's hard to describe, Michelle. I mean, the countenance on his face, I mean, it truly, it changed from almost this casual, everyday look to, I don't know, something out of...

a horror movie because his eyes got big, his voice changed. That was one of the first things that came to my mind is that this is The Exorcist. Can you talk to me a little bit about how you felt at that moment? I wasn't scared. I mean, I was scared for 13 months when I was in Vietnam. I mean, that was true fear. It didn't bring about fear. It did bring, my God, what don't we know?

Next time on Mind of a Monster, The Butcher Baker. I'm yelling at him. I'm saying, what? I mean, I'm using the F word. I said, what the fuck's going on? Mind of a Monster, The Butcher Baker is produced by Aeromedia for ID. The executive producer for ID is Jessica Lowther. Aeromedia's producer is Jess Leindivere. Editor, Millie Tappner.

Audio engineering by Mahoney Audio Post. Our line producer is Philippa Whittle. Our production manager is Alexandra Kelly. Our junior production manager is Jody Tanner-Wild. Our production coordinator is Shannon Tunicliffe. Our archive producer is Katia Lohm. And our assistant producer is Isabel Wilson, Glenn Flothie voiceover by Mike Bodie. Arrow Media's series producer is Gabrielle Nash, and executive producer is Stuart Pender.

I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Ward. You can follow this series wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you could take a minute to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts. It really makes a difference. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try it at progressive.com.

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