Hello folks, this is Princess. You are listening to the Millennial Mustard. Seed Podcast, thanks for listening. Don't forget to share with your friends. That's tough. We're in a very tough spot. I think that what we're doing right now is a great benefit and virtue because it's an end around between this whole corrupt informational system media system. We claim to believe in a God who spoke the universe into existence and literally raised
himself from the dead. And yet we're not going to believe that anything else exists in the spirit realm, even though his word tells us that they do. Their bodies weren't permitted to go to sleep like humans do, and they weren't permitted to go to heaven, so they wander the earth. You know, I've seen the. Eyes turn black to unknown tongues being spoken. These giants would love way up in the island, the young Braves.
The young men would hide up in the trees and wait for one of these 12 footers to come walking down the bath and they would jump on them and kill them, drag them back to the village, and the village would feast on the body freedom. Then people start to get weapons, they start to get armor, they start to build cities, they start to fortify their cities. Now God looks down and there's violence everywhere. The battle, this war that we are
at, is not against each other. It's against these principalities and these rulers and these archons in the high places. It's really worthwhile to read the Bible. Yourself. Fear is one of the primary drivers of mind control because we have to take every thought captive and resist fear. You're going to have a testimony that is a justice case against the Kingdom of darkness. Welcome back to the Millennium Mustard Seed. I'm the host, Rod. I got a cool episode in the store for you guys.
I'm joined by Doctor Max Botner. We have a fascinating conversation. He's a first time guest. We get into his testimony to start out and it progresses quickly into some strange questions that I have. We cover Christ's authority over the sea, and then we get into topics like spirits and ghosts and what does the Bible have to say about it. We get into some root words regarding language being used in the New and the Old Testament. There's some really fascinating connections.
Not anything brand new to the podcast, but it's just really cool to see a guy who has the heart posture like Doctor Max slow down and just thoroughly go through this stuff with us. Much of this information I've learned in personal studies over the years, just grabbing the word of God and diving in for myself. But it's really important to me
in humility and to be teachable. And, you know, the doctorates who went out before us to lay these foundations, you know, Doctor Max right now diving into this, not protecting anybody from the Bible. He says, let's see where the Scripture goes. And then also, how could I forget about legendary guys like the late Doctor Michael Heizer and especially the late Doctor Chuck Missler? These guys have really helped to not protect you from your Bible, to understand threads and language.
I found this to be a really fun, encouraging, strange and exciting episode. A part one with Doctor Max Looking forward to his return in the near future. But for right now I need you guys to like, share, subscribe. You can find details on the show notes. We are in a season of need. We do need you guys to help us by praying, by donating, by lifting us up. God is calling us. Things look uncertain right now as they have looked for quite some time.
But we are trusting and putting 1 foot in front of the other. You can find a link to my newest book. The words are saw in the details of the show notes as well. I play a song at the end of the episode by BHB it is called Where would I be? It is dope. You guys will definitely enjoy this one. I think it's about time to jump into this episode. I'm ready. Are you guys ready? Let's go, let's go. Everybody, welcome to the
Millennial Mustard Seed podcast. I am Doctor Max Botner, thrilled to be on today and to talk a little about my faith and just talk about Jesus and Scripture and what it means to follow Him. Doctor Max, it is an honor to be here with you, man. I really appreciate you taking the time. I can't wait to get into our conversation tonight. Yeah. Thanks, Rod.
It's great to be on with you. Yeah, so I stumbled across here on social media and what you were preaching on, I forget what the clip was, but there was an anointing on it. I want you to introduce yourself for my audience. They're they're probably not going to know who you are. Just making that assumption. I could be wrong. I think it's a fair assumption. Only a fair assumption. Just tell us a little bit about yourself share like that, you know 30,000 foot view of your testimony.
Tell us what exactly it is that you do. Yeah, great. So yeah, thanks again for having me on I so I didn't grow up in a Christian home. I was born into a secular Jewish Home in Canada, Montreal, Canada. Parents got divorced at a pretty early age and that's how they landed up back in the States
because my mom was AUS citizen. And so we just kind of, we moved actually from coast to coast, so Florida, and then this was back in the 90s after Hurricane Andrew, we moved across the country to California and ended up in the Sacramento area. And I, again, my parents were kind of into different sort of spirituality stuff. So I, I was exposed to a lot of, I guess you could call it kind of new age stuff.
I don't know if that's still a term people are using much today, but that's kind of what what they called it back in the 90s. But my mom had a Christian background. So that's sort of my was my first introduction to the church was just, I think the Lord really got a hold of her heart. And I saw a season of just God pouring out his love on her. And it changed her in certain ways. So that kind of made me curious as a kid because I saw a different side of my mom that I
hadn't seen before. And so eventually I was in a church service. Actually, our friends had invited us. I was 10 years old. And the only thing I really still remember about that night was just God's overwhelming love just sort of enfolded me. And I knew at that moment, man, Jesus is Lord, I want to give my life to Jesus. So that was sort of the start of it for me. I had no idea what I was doing, really, what I was getting into. And yeah, from there, just kind
of, it was difficult. I was really into sports, really into a lot of other stuff. So I bounced around a lot. We never really got rooted in church. Honestly, man, it wasn't until college and having a college pastor that really poured into me that I first started becoming really interested in my faith and scripture. And at that time, I was starting to see fruit of what God could do in your life if you really submitted to him, right?
If I said, OK, Jesus actually means what he says and he's Lord, His Spirit dwells within me. So, you know, what does that look like? And I began to make, you know, make changes in my life and see God working in my life. And that got me super excited about my faith. So that put me on the track of I, I transferred into a different college 'cause I wanted to take some Bible classes. It's actually the college that I now teach at as a professor, Jessup University in the Sacramento area.
And from there, I just, I kept going on with more school because I was so passionate about Scripture and I thought I was either going to be a pastor or maybe a professor, but I wasn't really sure. So I was kind of trying everything and the Lord sort of just confirmed each step along the way that I was. I think I'm more of a skill set for kind of a teaching ministry within an academic setting, Although I really do enjoy preaching in church and, and doing ministerial stuff here and there.
But kind of with the way I'm wired, I'm sort of wired for academia. I love the kind of heady stuff and that's just something I've enjoyed a lot. So right now that's what I do. I'm a, I'm a New Testament professor at a college. I've taught at a seminary before. I've studied and worked in the UK and Germany, various parts of the country. So yeah, it's, it's been quite the journey and I'm still enjoying it. There's the, you know, God is,
is, is infinite and unending. So there's always more to discover. And his word is so deep and so multifaceted that you can never really exhaust the study of Scripture either. So it gives me a lot to enjoy. It gives me a lot to do on a daily basis. Yeah. Wow, Very well said. Me and Doctor Laura Sanger actually talk about quite frequently that the word of God is inexhaustible. So I'd love to hear you say that.
Yeah. Now let's kind of jump in into a couple questions as as we warm up to, you know, some of the information I sent you, I wanted to talk with you about. You grew up having kind of like this understanding of like this fringe or Mystic stuff going on around you. Did that help with your faith or was that like a wrestling match? Like, no, these worlds don't collide. Could you help us understand that? A. Little bit, yeah, that's a great
question. I think that in some ways my background has made me a little bit more open minded to different things and comfortable with people having different perspectives than I do. Because, you know, Jewish family, very open kind of in terms of different beliefs, the whole kind of spirituality stuff that I was exposed to a lot of different stuff, a lot of stuff that none of my friends would
have, you know, experienced. So it, I think it did make me more open to certain facets, maybe even of Christianity. And I think it also helps me understand other people better too, and talk to people who maybe are coming from different parts of life. You know, I, I, I kind of get what it feels like to be in church and not be a Christian 'cause that was kind of my life experience.
So I, I, I sometimes find that in a weird way, I sometimes connect better with people who aren't Christians and who are depending on the context. So yeah, I think that's that's a little bit what I would say to that. It reminds me the late Doctor Michael Heiser, he said it was easier to go to a UFO conference and preach the gospel than it was to actually try to get Christians to understand the ancient cultural context of the Bible. Yeah, yeah, very much. And what?
Doctor, it's true. Yeah, Doctor Heiser did a great job connecting people, Christians who maybe haven't, you know, not for lack of want, but just haven't had the exposure to some of what you'd get in a academic setting, you know, where you're studying the Bible really intensely in its
historical context. He did such a great job of saying, you know, I'm kind of gonna go where the text is gonna go and, and, and showing people that it can actually make a difference for how you read the text too, that it's not just like, you know, just esoteric or, you know, kind of arbitrary stuff. But actually, hey, this could help you really understand the Bible better. Such a great job with that. So. Yeah. What exactly do you teach? What is your expertise, if you will?
Let's dive into that real quick. Sure. Yeah. So my dissertation, which is kind of what you write to get your PhD, it's it was published as a book. Now it's on the Gospel of Mark and Messianism. So the ideas of various Jewish messiahs and how Jesus sort of fits within that picture.
So that, that was really fascinating to me because I realized somewhere on in my master's degree that basically everything that is said about Jesus in the New Testament relates in one way or another to the Old Testament.
So if I want to understand what, what the authors are saying to us about Jesus, I really need to track along with the Old Testament. There's a, a great New Testament scholar by the name of Richard Bockham, who says something along the lines of, you know, there's nothing communicated about Jesus in the New Testament that it's, it's all what he calls like Jewish exegesis. So in other words, people don't write down like Jesus is God in this way. They show you how Jesus is like Yahweh, right?
It's a different way of doing it. But when I realized that, I just got so hooked and fascinated by the way the New Testament authors write about Jesus and that it's all really a kind of form of ancient Jewish interpretation of the of the Bible, what we call the Old Testament, that really got me hooked. And that's remained something that I'm really, really interested in. I do.
So I do stuff in gospels. I've done a little bit here and there with, with Paul, but I wouldn't say that's my like my, my expertise is been more gospel so far. Christology, messianism. I'm really interested in sacrifice. That's something that I've been exploring more recently and probably going to write a book on that coming up. So yeah, that's a little bit about about me, what I do. How many years have you been teaching? Let's see. Yeah, great question. So I am in, is it my 7th year?
I think I'm going into my 7th year full time teaching. I did some adjunct work before that, but I was at at a seminary, teaching at a seminary in Michigan. So it's like a school for pastors. People were training to be pastors, taught Greek, Greek exegesis courses there. And then I moved back to California two years ago and I've been teaching
undergraduates now. So I teach Bible, a lot of Bible interpretation classes, giving people the tools to read scripture well and then some, some other kind of upper division classes on different books within the Bible. So I'm in a, it's a Christian university, so all, all the students get a Bible minor. So I I work with a lot of students that are non Bible majors now.
The reason I asked you to come on here is I wanted to talk about Christ's authority over the darkness, right over the fiery arrows that get shot by day, over the demoniac. And you know, we're living in a day and age where fear is a tactic. A lot of people are engulfed in fear. We see a lot of panic decision making. And the Bible tells us do not be afraid. Do not fear. We go through this whole thing. You know, I had Doctor Mike
Davis on recently. We do the emotional intelligence, you know, we're talking about in the Old Testament where God is giving us this remedy. Do not let my law leave your mouth and I and you know, and he's saying to Joshua, I will be with you like I was with Moses. So we we have been going through the word and finding these connections where it's like this is for us.
This is for this generation to just to reiterate that Christ is who he says he is. But what I want you to hone in on and warm up as you see fit, Doctor Max. But I want to talk about Christ's authority and specifically he's rebuking a storm. He he calms the storm, He's walking on the water and wherever you'd like to go from there. I trust the flow of the Ruach, so take it from there. Sounds good. Yes, we'll let it go Yeah. And do feel free to jump in too to make sure that we're hitting
what you like. But I love what you said there and I I guess I would just start by saying I think it's so critical that we don't live in a fear based way. And I mean, more than just personal anxieties about uncertainties, which I think is a big deal. I mean, we're facing very uncertain time. There's a lot of upheaval currently going on, disruptions in various industries, which creates more of that just got
out of a global pandemic. So I mean, there's a lot of things that obviously have put that on our horizons. And in some ways the modern world has kind of inculcated us from that sense of death being ever present. And so when we get that, that taste of death being present, something that the ancients knew well, much more intimately than we do in many ways, that can lead to kind of fear. I think that one of the big challenges for us with fear is that it can lead to self preservation.
When I'm afraid, I, I, I look out for myself, you know, like I got to get my bag, I got to take care of myself, make sure my retirement account is set, make sure I have, you know, what I need to survive. And what's that mentality is basically antithetical to the life Jesus calls his disciples
into, right? So we can't, you, you can't follow Jesus with a fear based mentality, right 'cause if you're, you're making calculations in that way geared towards self preservation, it's basically antithetical to the way of the cross, right? So I think it's, it's important that we, that we discuss, you know, fear. And, and then the other thing I'll say before we get into the storm thing, 'cause you brought up the you, you referenced the spiritual warfare text in Ephesians 6.
And Ephesians is a book that I've actually been teaching quite a bit on. I've done some publications on it. It's a, it's probably, if not my favorite, one of my favorite letters of Paul because I think it just, it has such a beautiful holistic picture of the gospel. And one of the things that I that hit me with Ephesians as I was reading it through over and over as a whole letter.
I think it's not accidental that that spiritual warfare section comes at the end of the letter because I actually think the whole letter in a way is about spiritual warfare. Paul begins actually by this statement that Jesus has been raised up in the in the heavens and he's seated above the powers of rulers and principalities. We can get into those if you like, these entities, these dark entities. In some cases, you know, some of them are hostile.
So you have Christ in kind of like the victory seat to begin the letter. And then the letter is about God creating this unity in one new humanity of all these broken people who were formerly divided now being brought together in Christ. And that, he says, is a like, it's like a sign or a monument to the rulers, these principalities that Jesus has won the victory.
So it's it's interesting to me when I think about spiritual warfare now, one of the things that I always emphasize first is that it's actually a daily thing that we face as Christians and the primary terrain on which we fight. Spiritual warfare is just the daily battle of the mundane love loving one another well in Christ. That's the that's the main like kind of thing we, we, we do because the the enemy wants to tear us apart, wants to tear us
down. And the sign of Christ's victory is a flourishing people who are united in his name. So doing things that we don't often think of in terms of spiritual warfare, loving my neighbor as myself, watching the way I speak daily, seeking to edify others and use my gifts. Those are actually all part of what I think is what Paul sees as the daily kind of spiritual warfare battle. And then in that, in the spiritual warfare text in Ephesians 6, those are all plural commands.
So it's you stand kind of together as one. It's the picture of the body collective as an as the as the the Roman soldier, or I mean, he's using imagery from Roman infantry, but also from Isaiah. These are texts from Isaiah that he's drawing on. And it's like the body standing collectively together in this defensive posture. So spiritual warfare is also something we have to do
together. And I think one of the things that is challenging in our modern world is we're so we're so divided, we're so isolated that we often lose when we're individually fighting our battles and we don't have other people around us. So that's something I just wanted to emphasize because it's not always something that gets highlighted, you know, with with these conversations in terms of Jesus exercising his authority over the the sea.
That's a really pregnant text that we have in the Gospel tradition. There's there's a couple different texts where where Jesus exercises his authority over the sea. But we just look for example at the one in, in Mark chapter 4, right? It's like 431 through 35 or something like that. In that, that text, you have the sea coming up against the boat,
crashing up against the boat. It's narrated in such a way as to remind them that, you know, the sea is this kind of cosmic force that is the thing that God needs to sort of still to make life and flourishing possible for people. And that's the thing that's sort of crashing down on them while they're in the boat. And then there's this crisis moment where they realize Jesus is sleeping.
And so it's like, you know, we've all had those experiences in life, if we're being honest, I think where we maybe know intellectually that God, Jesus is all powerful, but we're like, where is it right now? Like, I don't see it right now. I am in desperate need. Like sort of like the psalmists, right? Like, where are you, right, Where are you? And so we have that kind of moment very similar to the Psalms, where the disciples cry out to Jesus. Don't you care about us?
And then he emerges and the text says he actually rebukes the wind and the waves. That's the same verb that's used for, you know, rebuking an evil spirit. So he silences this hostile force and everything is still. And then he turns to his disciples, which is in some ways he's also turning to us when we're hearing this text. And it's like, you know, where's your, you know, where's your faith kind of thing, or little faith. And so it's kind of there's this challenge right to us as
disciples as well. But it's, it's a powerful text, you know, and it's, it's in its original context. This is speaking to Christians who are facing harsh persecution, right? And they're thinking like, OK, you know, the empire is bearing down on us, you know, is, is how we believe Jesus is still in the throne. But like, where is he is he is the Son of man returning on the clouds. What's going to happen kind of thing. Those are the questions that
they're wrestling with. So you can imagine how Mark would be preached in a 1st century house church, you know, but it still reigns true for us today because we still have that, you know, those feelings of like the Lord of the universe. Where are you right now? Are you, are you still in control? I want to believe, help my unbelief, you know, all that kind of stuff. And, and the text just powerfully demonstrates to us that, yeah, Jesus is Lord over,
over the chaos. He has the power to, you know, to, to put that, put that down right. And yeah, there's, there's other things we could get into, but there's, there's really interesting, for example, allusions to some of the Psalm texts and to Jonah where, you know, you have people in the sea and it's the sea is whipped up and people are crying out to God. So it very powerfully demonstrates that Jesus is like the embodiment of the God of Israel there with the people on
the boat. Like that's the power that he's articulating. It's, it's the God of Israel's power over the over the sea. I think that's kind of the the gist of what's going. On very well said. The couple of the highlights there, like when you were setting up before going into depicting, you know, the sea crashing up against the boat, for example, you had talked about the spiritual warfare perspective and how we are to be, you know, everything's multi layered in my opinion.
Like the way that I see things, it's not so simple. So when spiritual warfare is being taught to us, the reality of the spiritual battle that all of us are involved in, whether we like to admit it or not, and the body being Christ's main goal is for the body. It's not denominational preference. It's not my building, your building, East Coast, West Coast. No, it's not. Jesus is looking at every member of the body on this rock that we call home.
And so when we start to have that unified way of thinking like the book of Acts, they said one likeness, one mind, one spirit and that they were working in such a way that there was an abundance. They were meeting each other's needs. I think that that is just I wanted to re highlight that again, just to plant another seed in the listener's ear of how important that was. And really you just got me excited and set up the rest of this, you know, idea that God is sometimes what appears to be
sleeping. And not to prescribe this text to somebody's situation, but the Bible's there for our teaching, for our reproof, our correction, right? And and so this is encouragement, but sometimes it can appear like God. Are you sleeping on the boat? And the the waves are crashing all around me. And it's beautiful to know that the refiners fire the testing. I believe everything is a test. Everything is a test. My listeners know that I hammered this idea home from the
simplicity of the guy next door. It's a test. Be careful, right walk the tight narrow and with what we had laid down in the beginning of this episode, mentioning this day of chaos that seems to be happening around us and some people do feel like God, I've been crying out to you.
Where are you? You know, I, I don't didn't really plan to mention this, but just for the sake of the relevancy of it, because this is something I believe we have to pay attention to Kanye West, one of the biggest quote UN quote, Christian converts of our day and age, you know, and now he's publicly coming out, people were celebrating, Oh, he's a Christian. Listen to his album. And in my spirit, I've been on record the whole time going something's off. I don't I don't know about this.
Something's off, right? So I would just watch. And now he's saying some really blast blasphemous things in the sense of I'm not going to re quote him, but for most people that are aware of what's going on out there, he's saying, I pray to God. God didn't answer me. So now I'm God. He's making crazy statements. And it's like the condition of Christianity.
How many, you know, how many millions and millions of people are going to hear what Kanye said versus thousands of people that are going to hear what me and you say. I think it's imperative that we actually take the position to be accurate to what the Bible has to teach us, just as you did with the boat scenario. So let's dive into just more of the authority on Christ and I want you to keep building on man you. We're really getting some
momentum. I was enjoying hearing you speak, you know, just about the authority that Christ has and, and, and how the Bible's connecting in other places about these entities. The principalities, powers rule as dominions. Take it from there, brother. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And, you know, just the one thing on, on, on Kanye too, or maybe two things. You know, it's I, I haven't
really paid. I, I'm fairly not entirely illiterate 'cause I mean, I have kids, but when it comes to pop culture, I'm fairly like removed these days, right? But I follow a little bit here and there. And my, my sense with him too, is I, I think, you know, when people are in the limelight and also struggling with mental health issues, that can be a really complicated, you know, scenario. And I'll just kind of leave it at that. But I, I sense that there's, there may be some of that going on.
And, and, and then the other thing I would just say too, and you know, I think you'd probably agree with this is part of the issue of our day and age is we're in the age of this, you know, the celebrity and the, it's we, we just idolize our celebrities, you know, it's called.
And that definitely seeps into the church as well, you know, and, you know, and so there's just, it's just always good for us to be mindful of what content we're taking in, who we're allowing to influence us. Just because somebody has a big platform or sounds really great doesn't necessarily mean that they're a great, you know, a great influence or a great teacher. We just have to be wise and discerning, you know? And Jesus says that in Matthew 7, you'll know them by their fruit.
So, and that, that's part of why we have to be connected to each other 'cause it's really hard to know the fruit of a person if you're not living with them daily or, or around them. You can, you can kind of miss that, but we, we have to do our best to be discerning. And yeah, so back to the, the
powers, right? So there's AI think there's a couple things going on, but Paul, Paul talks about, you know, rulers and authorities and powers and what he has in mind here are kind of cosmic, larger cosmic entities. He doesn't define them in detail. Like we sometimes think of like different archangels maybe having names or things like that. But there are some kind of perhaps like angelic beings or maybe vaguer terms you might want to use.
But he has this sense of these larger cosmic entities that are some of which are hostile against human beings that are desiring to basically to sow division among human beings, to oversee corrupt dealings. Even at like larger levels. You get this in, you know, this might may ring a bell depending on how much you listen to like Michael Heizer you you get this in Jewish apocalyptic with different angelic beings overseeing nations in some texts.
So there's an idea of like, I think what it all comes down to because on some level it's it's hard, or at least I feel like it's hard to fully define exactly what's going on metaphysically, right? And all these kind of areas, I know people have visions and things like that and I'm totally
open to that. But if we're just working kind of from text, there's a lot of different kind of traditions and things like this going on. But I, I think at a broad level, it is, it's a way of saying, yes, there is, there's something going on in the world that's more than just bad people doing bad things. Like there's, there's kind of
cosmic structural issues. There's that are also so it's like human beings are responsible, they make bad decisions, but we're also being impacted and influenced in certain ways from other, you know, other entities, even at a, you know, larger population levels, right. That's kind of the idea and I think Paul has that idea. You know, he brings that idea in and and that's a that was a major issue of what's wrong with the world.
So when he's going to talk about what Christ has done to put it right, his ultimate victory right over all these hostile powers, the last of which is Donatas death, You know, he's going to talk about Christ being enthroned over these entities and that the church, it's not so much that the church like get some special insight into what each one is like as the church stands against these by living the Jesus way, right. So the Jesus way is the of love, self giving love.
That's the way that God has designed us to function as human beings, because that's who God is in God's self. And by doing that, we very, very clearly actually end up resisting the, these hostile entities and their, the ideologies that they've sown in the world of selfishness, pride, arrogance, violence, you know, these kind of things that tear human beings and communities apart, that the church is supposed to be this alternative community, the body of Christ
that is different. So that that's kind of one thing, you know, that that that's going on. And then you also have in the texts, you know what we probably think more so of when people think of spiritual warfare, which are encounters with with like wicked spirits. The New Testament refers to them often as unclean spirits, which sounds kind of weird to us, but it's kind of an extension of the idea of ritual purity from the Old Testament that you can be in like, a clean or an unclean state.
Right. But this is an idea. Yeah. This is an idea though of kind of extended from that, that they had a sense also that sin, they described sin as in some cases defiling the person or corrupting the person. And this is kind of moves beyond that to think of certain spirits that can enter to the person and defile the person. So that's why the New Testament frequently talks about unclean spirit, sorry, what we would call demons as unclean spirits. It uses both terms.
It uses, you know, daimonion demon, but often it uses unclean spirits. Yeah, to to describe. So Jesus is walking on the water, the disciples are on the boat. He calls Peter out to him. In some translations, we see the language being used where he's like, I'm not a ghost, right? You know what I mean? He's like, it's, it's me. And I think that this is fascinating. But, you know, that's in the English though. So I'm glad that you're here to
help with this concept. Do we see a correlation between, you know, spirit and and unclean spirit or ghost is there because. Yeah. What are we really doing with that through like the poetry of the ancient Israel mindset, Hebrew mindset, 'cause it's just a whole different conversation, but. Yeah, let me check. I think I, I, I can pull that up real quick. I'm I'm pretty sure it's Phantasma is the Greek. Term Phantasma. Interesting. And so, yeah.
And and so in this, in this context, yeah, you're right. So in this context, what it is is they are they, they actually see Jesus walking past them. And that, interestingly enough, is actually an illusion. He wanted to pass by them. That's probably an allusion to Job nine 10911 in the Septuagint where God says I passed by you on the sea. It's playing with this idea of like the disciples, like Jesus being God with them, but they're not really recognizing it,
right, Like it does. It's kind of playing with that idea a little bit. Yeah, But yes, you're right. So they, what it reports here is they're saying to themselves it's a ghost. So they're making this judgement about Jesus. And that term there has more to do with like kind of an apparition, an apparition of a, of a deity, or it could be a, you know, some kind of divine being, right? You have to recognize in the ancient world, it's populated with God.
So to call like there are various, but the apparition of some kind of God or divine being or whatever, that's more what's being used there. That's not a term that's used of the the spirits in other texts. So it's like a different. Yeah, 'cause I know. I think it's Second Samuel. Hopefully I didn't butcher this, but drawing from memory, I'm not easy with chapter and verse. I usually just get enough of the meat to know when something rises up in me, like, is this important? Right.
Ask a question. Well, Samuel, you know, the witch of Endor, we have this scenario. Saul is there. And. The witch calls up Samuel and she's using this language, at least the way it conveys in the English is one like a son of God or I don't know if that is referencing Benihana Elohim or what really is going on there the Hebrew, but that he's coming up he's he's illuminated right. And so what's the language being
used in that verse? Is there a correlation with what we're seeing in the New Testament with same concepts spirit? You know, just to strange question I have. No, that's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. What's the exact? Is it give you the exact reference real quick And Samuel? Yeah, OK. First, First Samuel 28 seven is where Saul is asking for the serve. And find me a woman who is a medium that I may go inquire of her. 28 eight.
So Saul disguises himself because he bans all of the witches in the land, right, the necromancy. So he's like having trouble finding one now. And you know, he has to disguise himself. So First Samuel 28 nine, the woman says, look, you know what Saul has done? He has cut off the mediums of the land. Then the woman said, whom shall I bring up for you? Verse 11? And he said, bring up Samuel for me. When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice.
And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, why have you deceived me for? So we're at 13. First Samuel 2813 is right where we're getting into this. Oh yeah, I saw. A spirit ascending out of the earth. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I see. That's New King James, not my favorite version to read from, but but that's the language we're getting in the English there. Any correlations? Anything of interest do you think? Yeah, I don't know, like there's their language here is used of a God, right?
An Elohim. Elohim. Yeah, yeah. And, and then yeah, so, yeah, yeah. So it's I saw, literally I saw gods ascending. Yes, not well. That's using other translations. Elohim I the I am being plural right? Chera beam Seraphim being. Correct. Yeah. And it's, and it's understood here as a plural. So with with Elohim in the Old Testament, right, The you always it can Elohim can refer to God, the God of Israel and as well as other divine beings. It's a plural noun, right?
So you always have to look at context, but I'm looking at the Greek Septuagint, and it renders it as theus, which would be God, God's plural. So yeah, it it, it understands it the same way, which makes sense. I mean, contextually, you're not seeing Yahweh rising out of the earth here. You're seeing the other, you know, these other underworlds, underworld spirits or gods or whatever. Yeah. Very interesting to think about. I love.
Yeah, but you're right. I I mean the connection here would be. Would be similar in that the kind of manifestation of seeing a divine being, a God like that. That's the kind of thing the disciples are connecting on the boat. Right. And we're getting a different root understanding for an unclean spirit. We're not we don't have a correlation in the same way spirits being recognized in these two places where we can kind of see a universal agreement where it bolts together.
We're looking at Elohim or gods or a spirit comes up in Samuel's case with the witch of Endor. And also I loved, you know, that's the first time I've ever heard that put together where when you were saying Jesus was almost trying to pass by them and correlating that to Job. Man, that made me jump. I got. Oh yeah. It's a cool little. It's a cool little connection there. Yeah. That's one of those little love it. Yeah. You find love it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, no, yeah.
I was just gonna affirm what you're saying. The the, I think you won't find the idea of unclean spirits in the Old Testament, except for maybe there's one text in Zechariah that uses it, I think kind of metaphorically. But the term starts to show up in the in the late 2nd temple period. So the couple 100 years before Jesus, you see this term used also in the Dead Sea Scrolls and some other texts. So it's it's a little bit later developing than some of our other Old Testament texts.
Interesting. Yeah. Jesus being seen, you know, the I am being seen in the Old Testament and he can be presented from the Old Testament. Is that something that you have spent some time on and feel passionate about? Yeah. Can you run that thing home? What do you want to do with that? Yeah, man, sure. Well, I mean, there's so many different places you could you could go with this, right? And some of them are like more explicit sort of in your face
than others. So I mean, an obvious example would be Gospel of John where, you know, they're arguing with him about, you know, Abraham. And then he says, well before Abraham was Egoemi, I am now that that Greek phrase ego and me can mean many things. It's used all over the New Testament to mean different things. But in that context, it's very obvious what he's saying.
He's referring to what the Lord said to Moses when he revealed himself in the Bush. I am who I am, or I will be who I will be. The Hebrew can be translated either way, but he's taking basically a piece of that that revelation. So it's like the God's, God's name or as it were, or kind of his name. He sort of obfuscates giving Moses the name because he's not like other deities that you can control when you have the name, right? So it's kind. Of older you can control these in the book.
Yeah. And that's, that's right. Yeah. So I mean, it's, it's all over the place, right. I mean, that's why, that's why the the the Spirit or Legion, this legion asks Jesus, you know, or tries to identify him. I know who you are, Jesus, you're the southernmost high. Like he's trying to use Jesus name. And then Jesus says, what's your name to back to right. So, yeah, there's a lot of power in knowing the name. Yeah, you get it everywhere.
I mean, in the Odyssey, for example, when Odysseus has escaped the Cyclops and is leaving the leaving the island on the boat, he makes this mistake of hubris and looks back at the cyclops and shouts out, you know, now like you, I know that you've been bested by Odysseus. And then the Cyclops is like, oh, now I know who you are. Boom. And nails it, right. So it's it's everywhere. The name gives you power. So yeah, I mean, back to the whole thing.
Yahweh is not going to be manipulated in that way. So he's I am who I am. I will be who I will be, but that that's what Jesus is picking up on when he what he says, you know, before Abraham was I am that that's just a a really obvious, you know, claim. And and then, of course, you know, you go all the way back to the beginning of John's Gospel. In the beginning was the word and the word was with God.
The word was God, right. So John is showing us here that Jesus is what's what's being used here is God or this word, the Greek word theos is being predicated to Jesus because he's distinguishing son and Father as different persons. But they're both properly Theos. They're both God, right? And and to use our, our Trinitarian language, but I mean, this is a call back to the beginning of Genesis. Jesus, the word was the one through whom you know, the
Father creates. And then in verse 14, he has the word has taken on flesh, dwelt among us. That dwelling language is the term Skanao, which is to Tabernacle. We've seen his glory. So what what what John is saying to us here is that the incarnation is the Tabernacle of God coming down to be with us, right? So when you're encountering Jesus, in other words, you're encountering the temple. Well, that that's the divine presence. That's where God is encountered, right?
So that's a really strong claim of, you know, Jesus as God in the flesh, God with, with people. So. Quick question though, when I think it's in Jude when the author is saying the angels that disrobed of their former estate. Oh, you want to get into that? Yeah. Would love to. They're these angels are in chains of bondage under the earth. I think the Greek word was ocarion and and that's referencing the flesh or the vessel. Am I remembering that correctly by chance? But.
I don't know. Let me I can look it up real quick. Yeah, I'm. Pretty sure. Starts in like June. Yeah, Jude 1-6 maybe. I don't know, I'm really bad with chapter. You got it right. It's Jude Six. OK. And the good news with Jude, it's so short, there's no chapters. So it's just yeah. So they're these angels are guarded. They didn't. Yeah, right. They failed to guard their, you know, position of authority. They abandoned it. Yeah, correct. It is correct. Oikiterion.
So they're dwelling place. Yeah. This is an allusion to what some would call the Watcher tradition based on the Book of First Enoch. It's a tradition that's very popular and widespread in late Second Temple Judaism as a, you know, kind of an explanation of what's gone on wrong in the world and in the Watcher tradition. And you see this kind of hinted at actually in Genesis 6 before the flood account where the, the bin Elohim come down, the sons of God.
It's the same tradition. The, the cause of evil and violence in the world is from this fall, if you like. It's, you know, we often think of Genesis 3 as the fall or whatever, but literally these fallen, these these creatures, the the Nephilim comes from the Hebrew root to fall. So they're literally the fallen ones, right? Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah.
And even the, in the, in the, in the watcher tradition, the explanation for the origin of like evil spirits also comes from the offspring of these angelic beings with, with women. So Jude is just sort of like swimming in this water. Jude knows this tradition and is referencing this tradition not to make some deeper point about this tradition, but to talk about he's basically got like a litany of bad stuff, bad characters, because he's talking about certain false teachers in
the church. So it's it's sort of like a, an old school burn, if you will. Like he's like stacking up, you know, he's kind of roasting these guys a little bit. False teachers. Yeah. Now what about when we go to Genesis 3, the seed war, you know, the seed of the serpent being at enmity with the seed of the woman. Do we see?
I mean, I know that personally, I hold the view where I see the thread for the Nephilim, right, The law first mentioned, even in Job, if you prescribe to that, where we see the angels are applauding the celebration, they're the same word. There's Benihah Elohim. And then when we go to Genesis 64, like you just mentioned, the Benihah, the Benihah Elohim saw the Banatha Dom, the daughters of Adam that they were fair, right. And then the Nephilim are in the
earth in these days. And everyone's like it's some some translations. You see giant there. We get Gigantis from the Greek right. Kia So I've heard all these arguments on every side. I've had guests like Gary Wayne on thoroughly 5-6 part series. We've hammered the idea home, the visible ones, the invisible
ones, right? But what I love about you being here with me in the seat is your heart and your passion and just letting the text be what it is, you know, and coming from an expertise in in the New Testament in the Bible and having that heart posture just to say, well, let's go there. Let's see what the final authority has to say about it. Do we see any threads from Genesis three to six four to the tower of Babel, Nimrod becoming a mighty man or a mighty heart
before the Lord? What what's happening language wise there and is there interconnectivity? Yeah, I, I think the short answer is there absolutely is interconnectivity because I mean, you have to keep in mind the the people that wrote the Bible, the the Old Testament, the New Testament comes together in a shorter time and in a kind
of more compressed format. But the writers of the Hebrew text, they, they absolutely love interconnectivity and drawing these threads for us. And they do that with word play, as you alluded to it, like, you know, linguistic hooks. So when you have, you know, Abel killed by Cain, right, there's hooks from that back to the garden tradition, like the garden story. And then Seth is seen as kind of like the New Hope for the seed of the woman, right?
Produced. By. Right. So there's there's absolutely this thread is kind of running, running through throughout. So I just refer to it as the primeval history. That's Genesis one through 11. That's what scholars refer to it as. But yeah, there's there's, there's all kinds of these, you know, sort of connections. And so, yeah, I don't know if you have anything like specific that you were wondering. Can you comment on like Hebrew poetry right for these concepts and these threads?
Because I know, at least from my understanding about Hebrew poetry, it's not rhythmic in language or in Word. Like like all poetry, it's rhythmic in storytelling, right? So it's kind of like what we're talking about, that we see these threads showing up and happening, you know, with Cain and Abel. You see glimmers of that in the garden when you see, umm, what is his name? Uh, Joseph in Egypt, he has the cup bearer dreams, right? One of the cup, the bread guy gets killed.
You see some glimmers of the gospel in that, like the body is killed, the cup bearer right, is restored. And he and Joseph says in the prison cell like, hey, don't forget about me. Remind, you know, remind of what my interpretation of this dream to the king, right? And like, I see the gospel in that. There's an allusion to the Joseph. There's a actually, there's an allusion to the Joseph story, you know, when his brothers see him coming from afar and they're
nice. All right, we're gonna, there's an allusion to that in the Gospels, in the the parable of the wicked tenants, when Jesus tells this parable about, you know, different servants that come or sorry, you know, the Lord sends different servants and they, they beat him, they go. And then finally he sees the they he sends the son and they see the son coming, you know, and they say, let's kill him. That's an allusion back to the Joseph story in that, you know, that parable.
Yeah. So definitely. Like you have what are called typological connections, you know, from the old to the New Testament. Another great example is, you know, it's so crazy. You think about Genesis and this back and forth, you know, from the land to Egypt, which is obviously playing itself out leading up to the Exodus. But then if you think about like, OK, so how did the people of Israel get to Egypt?
It was an act of God preserving them during the time of a famine through Joseph going to Egypt. And then you go to the New Testament, the first book, the New Testament is Matthew. And in order to preserve Jesus's life, they go to Egypt. Joseph. Joseph takes the family to Egypt. And then he quotes Hosea, 11, one out of Egypt. I've called my son. So, yeah, yeah, there's these kind of connections there that. And The thing is, from your view is that is literal, right?
You actually believe Jesus as a child goes into Egypt physically, right? Oh oh. 100%, yeah. Yeah, I, I assume so. But like, I know that with so many figures of speech, there's a lot of strange stuff that that goes on in Christianity where people say, oh, that's just an archetype, that's a parable. That's only for, you know, it's just idealism about something that didn't actually happen, right? Like, so when God says hide under the wing of the Almighty, it doesn't mean God have wings.
Like, that's just a poetic phrase to, you know, he's painting a picture that resonates throughout the ages that a mother hen or any bird of that sort would hide their their chicks under the wing. Right. So it doesn't mean God has wings all of a sudden. Yeah. But like so some places in the Bible, Lord. Is Jesus right When Jesus goes Jerusalem, I've longed to have, you know, huddle you under my wings like on your. Chick, he's doing. Jesus is doing the same thing, right?
He's he's he's actually alluding to the same kind of stuff in the prophetic positioning. Yeah. So it's really fascinating to, you know, just learn this as I'm going along and just hear, you know, just just for it to be deepened and, and to excite the idea that I believe the Bible means what it says, says what it means. I think it's literal unless it cannot be taken literal, you know, And then I look at different formats of speech as
being poetic or, you know, yeah. I think that's really important, what you said there is really paying attention to the kind of writing that's involved, or we call it genre and and what the writer's trying to do. Right, 'cause that's right. We want to understand scripture. What can sometimes happen is we take literal to mean whatever makes common sense to us. And then the mistake there is that what's common to us might not be common sense to the to the writer, right?
So, yeah, yeah, reading the Bible in the in the Protestant tradition, reading the Bible literally, literally meant for the Reformers trying to understand what the biblical authors meant to communicate, which meant which meant you have to pay attention to history, context, type of speech, all of that, all the stuff you're talking about, you have to do
that. Sometimes when people say today I read the Bible literally, they just mean, well, I take it at face value and this is what it looks like it's saying. So it's got to mean that. And it's like, well, no, let's, you know, keep in mind and there's a lot, lot of time gap. We got to pay attention to context. You know all that. Very well said. And that reminds me of the Greek word for training, Gunanzo. I think it is intense intervals of training, right? And it's like that's. Breathe.
Yeah, yeah, we have to train. I need to show yourself well approved knowing to rightly divide the word that you will not be ashamed right. So it's an individual case like but for as many of us that are on this journey out there, I think it's really worthwhile, you know, to read the Bible for yourself, but also be teachable and and just learning the ancient cultural context of things and and understanding.
I was blown away, dude, the whole entire if your eye be dark, then how great is the evil in you versus your eye be light. And then Doctor Mike Davis is going through and he's talking about the understanding the language at the time was generosity for light. So if if you be generous, your body's foot and he's alluding to this, this, you know, local cadence that would have been understood completely in Jesus
time. And we've read it today and we're like, oh, if your eyes dark, oh, you know, if people can make anything out of that, I've heard so many wild things. I'm like, no, please, someone help us. Right. Yeah, yeah. That's the anointing to break the yoke on this. Yeah, and, and we just have to. You're right. We have to be really careful. We're all gonna make mistakes, right? And we're all, I think what you said about being teachable is so important.
The more time I've spent studying the Bible, a kind of like a, in more academic kind of context, the more I'm aware of how little I actually know. So I'm, I, I think the more humility can actually be a sign that you, you actually know something, You know, you're aware that there's just a lot out there. And it's not like we have to be afraid. You know, we have sufficient knowledge and we can grow in that knowledge.
But but like, we don't have to pretend or act like to be a disciple of Jesus, we have to have the answer to every question, right? Some some things, some things we won't have the answer to ever. Some things we might get better answers to, but we have to do some work, some study, you know, but we don't have to operate from a position of like, you know, fear of OK, you know, I have to have the correct one thing on every single thing and if it.
Doesn't have to be like aggressive and defensive like I need to win this argument. Like no, this is a lifestyle and it should be a life journey as well. Amen. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And I wanna sharpen and finding so many other people that are in that area has really been uplifting because now there's it's like, I thought I was alone in the beginning. And it's like, no, you're, you're never alone. You're gonna meet hundreds of
people as you go and just and. For, for all of the bad stuff, the, the, the, the garbage we're dealing with when it comes to social media and Internet and all this kind of stuff, that is one thing that is I think a blessing. Like we, we have the ability to connect with, with people and with sources of information in ways that are just
unprecedented. And it's great we take advantage of that, you know, and it's great that you're doing this podcast and giving people the opportunity to journey with you and think about scripture and and encourage, you know, just encouraging one another. That's a great opportunity we have so. So, well, let me let me ask you a final question and we'll kind of wind down here for for a part one. But what, in your opinion, is the most important encouragement for the millennial generation
today? That's a great question. I guess I'm an older millennial, like very tip of that generation. So I think I'll just speak from the heart here and say Jesus is far greater, far better than the brokenness, the toxic brands of Christianity, the authoritarianism, the anyisms that we, you know, encounter in our world that we see in the church. You know, Jesus is greater, he's worth it and cling to him. Continue to to follow him even when you're wondering like,
where am I? Do I belong in church? Where do I belong? I've asked myself that question sometimes, like where do I belong? Who are my people? Because what I see going on here, I don't know if I want to be a part of this or I just don't know if I fit in or or whatever it may be. But what keeps me going is Jesus, you know, it's he is, I believe with every fiber of my being. He's the Lord of the world. He he rose from the dead, as he
said. I mean, if that if we got I, I'm going to steal a quote from from NT Wright that he had shared on my. Podcast when I interviewed him, which he stole from a London taxi cab driver. So it's like 3 stages removed, but I thought it was so good. He said, you know, he said the taxi cab driver turned around at him and said, well, if Jesus rose from the dead, it's all everything else is pretty much rock'n'roll, isn't it? And he's like, you know what that's that's about right.
Like, so if that is true, then it makes work following Jesus worth it no matter what. But I, I want to say beyond that, like there is a lot of, I think millennials are, are aware of a lot of the hypocrisy and the struggles in the church and just forms of Christianity that maybe just don't really reflect well who Jesus is. And so there's hunger, there's a desire for people to love one another, for justice, you know, for all these really good things.
And I want to affirm all those things and just say that I think those things are ultimately found in Christ. And that's where, you know, that's where we, that's where we find our true selves. That's where we find our true identity. I don't know, I feel like I'm rambling a little bit, but I'm kind of talking to myself in a way as well because I mean, these are things that I think about quite a bit. So. First, John 411, beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to
love one another. I really enjoyed having you here, man. It was refreshing. We jumped around a little bit, like there's so many threads I wanted to stay on, but I'm like, oh wait, what about this? So I would love to just invite you back for Part 2 down the road. It was an honor. Thank you. Thank you, Rod. I really appreciate it. This is a really fun conversation. Thanks. Well, that's the episode you guys.
I'm going to ask you to share this with your friends, family members, Co workers, share it with your pastor, with your doctor coming to you from Southeastern Pennsylvania. God bless and goodbye. This is Boy Brandon. Thank you for tuning into the Millennial Muscle seat. My favorite podcast. Thought I was on my dead bed. On my dead bed. I was really stressing. I was stressing all that stressing.
It didn't turn depression. Thought the Lords don't want me to let you go and learn this lesson. Thought I was on my dead bed, me stressing and I was caught up in my feelings. I was thinking reckless. Thought the Lord don't want me let you go learn this lesson. I was so deep in my tender I didn't see forgiveness. Learn this lesson. You gonna learn this lesson And my mind ain't turn on me like I was feeling helpless. I ain't know which way to turn. Like I got inside my dead way.
I was defeating the ground, running in my casket. I was dead and gone. Didn't see the light, couldn't find my way home, couldn't fight 'cause I knew I was wrong. No one inside. I was all alone. Yeah. Yeah. But he changed all my ways. Saw me deep up in my sin. And pull me out. The grape said he shed his blood for me. So I'm only this way now. Just repent of all your sins. I'll show Amazing Grace. Sometimes I think about. Sometimes I think about life without you. What would I be about?
Be about? Where would I be if I didn't have you? Sometimes I think about. Think about. Sometimes I think about a life without you. What would I be about? Be about where would I be if I didn't have you who thought I was on my dead end or my dead end? I was really stressing. I was stressing all that stressing needed to turn depression. Thought the Lord don't want me like you gonna learn this lesson
now. I'm on my way up my way up don't hold me Instead I just had to shake him, had to put my trust in Jesus cause eat away Yahweh, Yahweh never be the same. Let the whole me in the water right in Jesus name and I'm the Holy Spirit. Now I'm really safe. No more time for all my feelings. Got to walk in faith and I'm ready for every battle that come my way. No I ain't joking. Holy Ghost fire filling me down to smoking. If you want it, you can get it. Got that power inside of me and
he is really potent. Every captain will be free. Every devil got to flee, and not because of me, but they got inside of me. Sometimes I think about, sometimes I think about life without you. What would I be about? Where would I be if I didn't have you? Sometimes I think about, sometimes I think about a life without you. What would I be about? Where would I be if I didn't have you? I was really stressing. I was stressing. Yes, welcome to the millennial seat. Sorry, what is it called?
Millennial seed must. Millennial mustard seed. Yeah, that's it. Millennial mustard tongue twister.