¶ Road to Trail Running and Advocacy
вами Chris Morrison . How are you ?
I'm good . How are you ?
Pretty good man . So I listened to some podcasts , right , and I always hear , or sometimes hear , a host saying yeah , thank you for holding technical difficulties , and I think today is my time to share that . Thank you for hanging around . I had a few technical difficulties . You're a trooper to hang tight .
I was about to throw my Apple computer and everything out the door , but I didn't . Thank you . Thank goodness , or we wouldn't have this discussion . So , chris , you are a trail and ultra runner , correct ?
That is correct .
How long have you been doing that ?
And I just ran my first ultra in 2021 , march of 2021 . So , as far as doing ultra distances , a little over two years I've been running the trails . I think I started trail running in about 2019 . Up until then , I started running in 2012 , but up until I hit the trails in 2019 , I was a road runner .
Pounded pavement .
Yeah .
Now , I'll do that if .
I have to .
Right , right , okay . So what made you do the switch from pavement to trail ?
So I noticed with the road races , so I started at the half marathon distance , and then you .
That's a good start , by the way . Yeah , huge start , yeah .
And as people do , you start moving up , you know , and you move up to the full marathon and I caught myself being focused solely on performance .
With the road races it was all about speed , paces , splits , To the point where I would sign up for a marathon , I would train for whatever three , four months , go do the race , and if I didn't PR the race it was like , well , that was a waste of time . You know which is a crazy way to look at it .
It's like you finished a marathon , Like you should be proud enough of just that fact . But yeah , and so I haven't had that experience with the trail running and with the ultra distances and that was what . So that was kind of what burned me out on the road stuff . I even took a year in between and I tried triathlons .
I did a couple of Olympic distance triathlons just because I was trying to find something new that was like more enjoyable and like I'm not a super fast guy anyway . So it's not like I'm ever going to be , you know , a super speedy . Well , probably wasn't going to be a super speedy road runner anyway .
So to get so caught up on the performance of that , it was kind of silly . So making that transition to trail and ultra . It was just a totally different . I'd never finished an ultra , whether it went good or bad , and was bummed about it or thought it was a waste of time . I was always super stoked that I finished it , that I got it done .
It's more like an adventure that I'm going on than it is a race .
Okay , and since then , hooked ever since Big time . Yeah , so your first trail race in 2019? .
No , my first trail race was in 2021 . 2021 . I started running the trails in 2019 . I actually had a back injury so I wasn't able to run for quite a while and then , when I got back to it , trained and did that first ultra in 2021 . So the first one I did was a 50K . It's here in Arizona .
It's called the Crown King Scramble , okay , and it starts at Lake Pleasant and it climbs about 6,800 feet up the Bradshaw Mountains and finishes in a little mining town called Crown King . So it's a pretty vert heavy race .
And that was your first one .
Yeah , oh , my goodness .
Okay , I figured .
this is supposed to be a big challenge and adventure , so like I'm just gonna go for it .
And boy did you . Oh , my God , all right .
And I've actually gone back and run that race every year , since I kind of have this idea that it was my first one . It's pretty special to me and I think it'd be cool if that was a perennial race . So I've done it three times now .
Each time better .
Second time not better . This last time much better as far as finish time yeah .
Okay , so what was the difference between last year and this year ?
I've been working with a coach since September of last year for the first time . So I had someone who yeah , kylie Desert to Peak coaching will shout her out . She's in Tucson , she's awesome . She's definitely got me dialed in with workouts , training , runs , specific to that , you know , to the race distance . So specific to that distance .
She's helped me a ton with my nutrition , my feeling , which I was completely ignorant on prior to working with her , but that was is the biggest factor for the improved performance . Also , last year was unseasonably hot . I mean , it was just , you know , I think it was mid-80s , but when you're not used to running in that heat and then all of a sudden you're .
This year was much cooler . You know , there was a bunch of water crossings that weren't normally there . It was like 14 knee deep water crossings and at one point you're actually going upstream on the course . So there's been different challenges , different variables every year . But , yeah , I think I shaved an hour and 20 minutes or so off of my previous time .
It was a pretty big niffing bump .
Good for you . From trail to palatinate pavements , a different vibe man it's more camaraderie , more togetherness , more community than hey , pound of pavement , hey , it's my PR who cares about you . And then here's your water . It's , you know , it's so fast and just it's just agonizing just on your joints .
Trails , different fibers in the legs , through your back , your arm , I mean it's just . Everything is different , man . So okay , so welcome , welcome to the trail world .
But yes , I love it .
Once you've been in the scene . I mean you've been quite active in the community , trail community , as if you've been in there for like 20 years . Man Right , I mean that's what it seems . I mean you got quite the following on Instagram .
I know I don't go too much into the whole social media thing , but you're another , sure Another community you're a part of , and pretty big in it . And that's when I found you is mental health . You're a mental health advocate man on so many , so many spectrums .
you know whether it is through bigger than the trail that's when I found you , Especially during the AZT , the BinLite and a midnight AZT FKT that they were doing . That's when I found you , and then you're doing fundraising yourself .
You do a lot of fundraising . Yeah , I've done one fundraiser . So yeah , I mean just as far as community . So like , the first part of that is like the local trail community here . I'd become much more involved in it just in this last year , and tied into that is my social media in an unexpected way .
So I was always a solo runner always and I wanted it to be that way for a while . Maybe just a different motivation , different reasons why I was getting out there . But as I've actively been working on building up my social media presence , it's put me in contact with a lot of local runners .
You know people would just hit me up hey , we run the same trails . Like let's go out and get some miles or I'll follow somebody , they'll follow me , we'll pass each other on the trail . Oh , hey , I recognize you , and then we're out . You know I've gotten quite a few running buddies over the last year in that way , doing some group runs .
You know , met people at races . Can I talk to people with races ? I'm gonna be out at there's a night race here in a couple of weeks and I'm gonna go out there and volunteer at the aid station . So I'm sure hopefully get to see a bunch of people , but that's been a fairly recent development .
And then , as far as the mental health part , the bigger than the trail . So we talked about started running in 2012 . I started running about three months out of rehab for alcohol abuse . Okay , I kind of needed something to fill my time and maybe a goal to go after . I wanted to accomplish something , whatever it was and why it was running .
I don't feel like the lowest barrier to entry like get some shoes , some shorts and you can go .
¶ Running and Social Media for Fundraising
So it's always I don't when people say like oh , running is my therapy . I can't . That's not . I can't say that for myself . I'm a big advocate of like talk therapy , going to counseling if you need to go get treatment . That stuff is all very viable , very helpful .
Just running For me that's not really going to solve everything and I've been in therapy plenty in my life and it's helped me a ton . And so I always had this idea of okay , I'm signing up for these races and I'm spending a good chunk of time training and I'm posting about it on social media and I think that stuff is beneficial in itself to other people .
Because I have people say , oh , you know , you motivated me to do my first trail run or something like that . But it could still feel very self-serving at times , and so I had this thought of what if I can use this , all this running , I'm doing this , putting it on social media to benefit some other people , to help some other people out .
So then you have bigger than the trail who uses trail running as their platform . But really they're a mental health nonprofit and they won't provide people with free mental health service . They can't afford it . So , with no previous experience fundraising , no idea how I was going to raise this money . I signed up for a Bryce Canyon 50-Miler as a charity bid .
So basically it's like if you raise $1,500 , you get to run this race , they waive your entry fee . I will say I did not get to run the race this year . I had some stuff come up . I had to postpone that till next year . But we were able to raise . I think the goal was $1,500 , I think it was $2,644 .
And I say we raised because that was almost all through my social media account , just promoting it on there and having people donate . I made these trail therapy t-shirts that I sold and all the profits went towards that fundraising goal . So cleared the goal substantially . I did the math and I can't remember that's my kid crying out of that's throwing up .
Okay , is , I think , $180 ? Got somebody one free month of counseling . So whatever the math is , somebody wants to do that math . I know it was over a year's worth of counseling , so that was really cool .
But yeah , I just signed up for it and then I'm kind of a fan of putting myself on the hook because okay , now you're committed to this and now you're gonna figure out how to do it , kind of thing . Yeah , and I've met other ambassadors bigger than the trail ambassadors . Through doing that , that's been awesome .
Yep , and I noticed your alter ego running ambassador as well .
Mm-hmm , yep , I got a few that and Salt Stick .
Salt Stick okay .
And Squirrels , not Butter .
Yeah , yeah , I tried to get on Squirrel , not Butter , but I guess they don't like me . No , I they like me . I just interview their big the guys that work there . Oh yeah , yeah , eric Sinsman . I'm like , hey , eric , hey no , but no , he's a good guy , all right . So fundraising , what did you ? You're gonna do more , did you ? Did you enjoy that part ?
I did . It was a lot of fun . It was a little nerve-wracking at first because I don't mean , I don't know if this is too much behind the scenes , but when you sign up for something like that and when you get within a certain time period of the race , you're committed to that money , whether you raise the money or not .
So , there's , you know it's like this might cost me $1,500 to run this race . You know , I don't know , but it would . No , it was a ton of fun . I , you know I tried not to spam people but I'd post about it once a week . I would do almost like like I used to do with telethons .
You know , hey , we raised this much money this week and here's our grand total and I think that just caused some excitement . The t-shirts you know , I designed a t-shirt which I've never done that , and then that hit . That went so much better than I planned .
I thought maybe I'd sell five t-shirts and two of them to my mom , but I think we sold like 80 something t-shirts Nice , and I know someone to Canada . You know they're all over the place and people would post them , pictures of them and tag me so I could shout them out . And it was fun .
They raised the money , but it was also kind of a community building thing .
So you learned another aspect of things , man fundraising and building your own brand .
Yeah , yeah , for sure . Yeah , it was a . I'll definitely do it again . I don't know . Part of me was like I'm gonna have to wait a little while . I don't know if you can go to the well too many times . Hey , I'm doing another race trying to donate more money , but Right , well , you can pick and choose .
I mean , look at the big guys , the elites , they pick and choose as well . I mean , but with the brand , do you ever consider making your own brand , since it was so successful ?
I thought about it just as of recently . I would At the risk of sounding tacky I mean , part of my goal not the main goal but part of my goal is to be able to monetize this a little bit , so that I think it'd be cool to be able to have a YouTube channel at some point , maybe have a podcast channel at some point .
I've just been so focused on building up my Instagram so that I'll have an audience , so that I can take different places . To make that worth the time and effort and to be able to put the money into those things , I would need to start monetizing things a little bit , and making a t-shirt would be something I could do , I think .
Even if I did that , I think I'd still take a certain percentage and maybe donate to something like Bigger than the Trail or a nonprofit , not just have it all come to me . Yeah , I've been kicking around that idea , just as a really recent , no solid plans or ideas .
Have you done a podcast before ?
This is my first podcast .
First one , and here you are talking about you're going to start your podcast . Well , I'm surprised this is your first one , man . I mean you're quite the content creator and surprised no one's like hey Morris , come on , man , let's get on the podcast .
No one , yeah , I will tell you . I got another invite last night , so I'll make it to a number two at some point here soon .
Nice . Well , congrats , man .
See people coming around .
¶ Running and Trail Adventure Joy
I'm not going to ask you who , I'm just glad I'm your first man , yeah , you know . Hey , man , it's pretty big man . It's pretty big the competition man . You know , I'm so focused on trying to get this out and I'll beat myself up because of this little charade that we had earlier with the device .
But I mean , other than that man that you had can be a little cutthroat . But hey , you do what you do . You love what you do . If you don't love it , then you're in the wrong business , man , and I'm doing this out of love of the game and the community . So people see it and people can tell , and a lot of podcasts don't make it .
So just let you know . You got to have patience , man , because the numbers don't happen overnight , man . Some people do .
And then I would imagine there's some stick to it in there . I mean , you know , and I know we don't want to get too far in the rabbit hole on the social media stuff , but like I started working on it two years ago , right , and my account was a personal account like 200 people up until just April of this year it was like 2,500 .
And so then you know , just in the last few months I've seen it start to double , triple , almost quadruple in size . But it's been me putting stuff out and just slow grind until it starts to take off a little bit . So that hopefully is a good training exercise if I do make the move to that to the next step .
Just be authentic . Continue to be authentic . I saw your latest video on man . That was prime man .
That's the goal , man . Just try to be me and be myself , and that means sometimes it's silly and goofy , and sometimes it's nature appreciation or sometimes it's just a video of my run . Yeah , you're not going to see me on there screaming and thumping my chest or doing any of that stuff , because it's just probably right , right .
Well , that's good man . People , people catching on man , they see it , you got it . You got to believe in it , man . So you started running to get away from everyday happenings , correct ?
Yeah , it was kind of a way to insert a healthy habit where there was now a void from unhealthy habits . You stop drinking the way I was drinking and you realize you've got a lot of extra time on your hands , and so what do I do ? So same thing . I signed up for a half marathon , no idea how I was going to train for it . I was never a runner before .
I'm six foot five and I played basketball in high school in my early twenties . So the only running I did was whatever was mandatory in basketball practice . So I signed up and then I found , like I think I used the Halpik half marathon training plan free training plan online , but yeah , it was more so to insert some kind of healthy habit .
I wanted to be physically active . It gave me a goal to work towards . Yeah , I wasn't necessarily getting away with getting away from anything , but just finding something else to do .
Yeah , it frees the mind , it gets all the stressors out . What is it Organically ?
Yes , and that's what I love . And that's what I love after going for a really tough run or a long run is just you dump so much that when I'm home , you know something , I'm so exhausted I can't do anything , but I'm just like chill , yeah , yeah , yeah .
Okay , when did you figure that out ? When did you find that running was key ? I mean , you could have done other things like rock climb or , you know , hike , but you stuck to running .
Yeah , yeah .
When did you know running ? Was it man ?
like almost immediately I was hooked . It wasn't like I waited until I did the race and then crossed the finish line and felt that feeling to really buy in . I was bought in halfway through the training process , just going out every day and having that routine and that regimen and the way that I would feel , usually after .
You know , I don't know that I catch that runner's high so much during runs , but it's that after feeling that I definitely got hooked on , but it was pretty much immediately yeah .
Okay , the feeling of accomplishment , yes , yes , okay . And that's why , hans , you're a trail runner now , because pretty much it's a new adventure .
Yes , even if you do the same type of distance , the courses and the terrain and everything can be so different . And I also saw in trail and ultra . You know there is . You know , the longest I've done is a 50 mile race and I have ambitions to do the hundreds , the 250s . There's so much more to do .
So , yeah , all the other challenges that are still out there to do and those accomplishments , you know I know there's a lot more of that feeling of accomplishment to be had .
So when you go out , do you go out there just to train for your next race , or do you go out there just to have fun and just explore and but still get your workout in ?
mostly the latter , mostly to have fun , explore . I mean you know the way that I'm training . The bulk of my runs are at an easy effort , right , and you know , I always know , and the kind of the gauge for that is if I can go out and if I can hold the conversation with somebody while I'm running .
Yeah , you know , I do have once a week where there's a dedicated like speed work day , and that's usually when I'll hit the roads or I'll hit the canal path by my house because it's just straight , flat pavement . You know it's sometimes it's tough to hold certain paces on a trail because the terrain can change so much . Yeah , those are work days .
Those are like I'm not here , I'm doing intervals , but a lot of times , yeah , I mean I'm getting a workout in at the same time that I'm kind of just running around in the mountains with my buddies or solo and catching the sunrise or a sunset . You know it's definitely fused , it does not feel like work often .
¶ Discussion About Hiking and Mountain Climbing
Okay , do you climb like hike summit , like Whitney ? I mean , you have home , you have home , freeze down there , right .
I've never done home freeze . Yeah , I haven't done a whole lot of that since I've been in the trail running stuff . You know I go to South Mountain that's our local mountain here it's like 15 minutes from my house because that's just for time sake , it's convenient . But you know it's not like it's .
I think the top is like maybe I won't mind fudges , but I think 2,500 feet it's not a crazy big mountain .
Everybody has their mountain . Look at Cam Haynes .
I mean , I got my mountain right here , you know .
So yeah , you got your local mountain . I got it , I got it . Yeah , I have been going out to .
There's a mountain here . It's called Mount Horde . I've gone out to a couple of times over this last month . That's more of a . It's a bigger mountain and it's a good one to go up there and train .
We hike up , you know , and then run down , because I , you know , when I'm doing these ultras and these ultras that have a decent amount of vertical gain , I'm not running up . I'm not running up all these hills and all these , you know , I'm power hiking it . So I think getting some hiking in is definitely a good goal .
Well , I'm gonna be the first one to say it . I know a lot of people do say it , but I'm gonna be the first one to say it . Only elites can run that pure verse , man , I'll power hike the heck out of it . Man . So I get it . And a lot of people are afraid to say it , but hey , I power hike the heck out of my bird .
Oh yeah , I'm not afraid to share that . So when are you gonna start power hiking and summoning mountains , man ?
I don't know , you know what we didn't tell you about this . But like I moved here from Alaska , I grew up in Alaska , oh okay . So I did a fair bit of hiking and stuff up there . But yeah , down here it's just you gotta travel a little ways to get some of the bigger ones , but I will .
This is actually a better time to do it and get the heck out of the valley when it's scorching hot .
But man , I tell you what I've scaled mountains for years and there's nothing like it .
Man , if I , let's say , if I don't feel like running , I'm just gonna go do a mountain real quick , because it's the same feeling it might not seem like it , but , man , the sense of accomplishment , just the feeling , it's so much different than trail running actually and man , it just keeps you going and going , so like as you're driving right , especially after
three kids and the different ages , and I'm like driving , and I'm like , oh dad , did this one , oh dad , that one , you know there's so much more to it , you know then , yeah , I ran the race , yeah , I did . Okay .
You know what I mean .
It's just they're always there and it's just like , oh my God , okay , this one , I'm gonna tackle this one . And then , when you drive by , you're like . I'm still gonna tackle it . I haven't yet I'm gonna do it . But check it out , man . Once you do one , you're gonna be hooked , man . I guarantee it . I guarantee it .
It's just been . You know hiking and you know I did hike mountains in Alaska . It's just been so long and , not to be derogatory , I love the parks here and the mountains here , but the mountains in the Phoenix area compared to the mountains in Alaska is , you know , it's not quite the same .
But my coach is putting on a she's gonna do like a camp and she's down in Tucson , so there's Mount Lemmon and we're gonna go spend a weekend playing around at Mount Lemmon . So maybe that'll spark the interest more for me .
Okay , the trails down there , up here they can be a little busy . I just got done with the mountain race . We talked a bit , you know , and you saw the pictures , christine . It's like no one's been there . No one wants to be in Eastern Oregon , you know , but down there it's a lot busier than where I was .
When I go closer to Seattle , those trails are a lot busier and more dangerous because people like to , you know , rob you for real . Or you know , still everything that's in your car . Even if you do unlock the doors and roll down the windows , they always damage your vehicles . But that's besides the point . So what trails ?
Are you that type of person that will keep the trails system silent ? You know , like those hidden gyms . Or are you the one , or would you be the one , to post it on Instagram , like some people , and then get a lot of hate from it ? Because when people find out it's a hidden gym , it's not a hidden gym anymore .
thanks , you know , and so yeah , there's been times where I've posted what trail I'm at . I have started not necessarily tagging the trails I've been tagging myself . I'll just tag it as Arizona .
Right .
There have been times when , like I already talked about Ord and I feel like Ord is maybe kind of that , one of those kind of hidden gyms , especially for the ultra runners . I mean you'll go out there , you won't really see anybody , but the people you see are people out there running up and down it .
So hopefully I don't blow that up too much and get people mad at me . But yeah , I mean , you know I go to South Mountain . South Mountain is no secret , it runs right on the southern part of Phoenix , you know .
So that can get pretty busy , you know , right now in the summer it's not too bad because most people are smarter than me and they don't want to be out there in this type of heat .
But you know , even there , if you get past , you know , once you get past a mile or two , past the trailhead , that's where a lot of people that are out for a casual hike or walk or whatever they're doing , walking their dog . That's when you get kind of past that and you get a little more seclusion .
You know it's weird , you know , because I'm not I don't want to be an elitist about it I it's , it's for everyone and I'm a big part of why I post a lot of this stuff is because I want to encourage other people to go out there and get on these trails , experience this , you know , um so so they can't get a little .
They can't get a little congested more so towards the trail heads . You know South Mountain , the tricky part there is it's a pretty prime uh spot for mountain biking . So that's what we gotta be careful about those guys flying up behind you .
Man . So here I can talk about Eastern Washington , man , they have no regard , man , it's all balls to the wall . Them first , everybody , last man and their dog , and and so , uh , me and mountain bikers . Dude , I , I have , I have some mountain biker friends and they know how I feel .
But , man , when I'm on the trail , man they're , I just pay no attention , I give them their way and just let them go . Man , I just yeah , because I've been burned so many times by them and disrespected , so it's like all right , just yeah .
Yeah , usually they're usually pretty cool , but I I'll be like I don't run with headphones very often anyway , so but even when I do , even out on those trails , I'll I'll keep just one one budded because I want to hear if someone's coming up behind me , coming in hot , you know right .
Well , for me , I don't even listen to headphones . You know I this is the only time I got one year in that and one year out . But uh , for , for safety reasons , I'm that guy , especially if I'm spending multiple hours , let's say two to four to six hours , on the trail . Um , I'm going to make sure I don't scare an elder , elderly person or a lady .
And uh , I've been uh very vocal about ladies having headphones on . I'm probably going to , hey , I don't say anything bad , but I listened to my iPhone on full blast one , and when I see a female or a male alone and like hey , behind you , but I still scare the crap out of them .
But man , I I that I don't believe in headphones , just because , man , cougars , rattlesnakes , there's rattlesnakes like crazy here and uh , and just the the lonely people , man , just because , ah , man , I swear I've almost given a couple of people a heart attacks on the trail . So , um , I do it just so convenience and not scare people , man .
So yeah um , I don't put the speaker on blast or have an extra speaker like some people , but um , that , that's my go to man . My safety too .
First yeah , yeah , safety for me it's . It is safety , um , it's also just I like going out and just being with my thoughts , or not being with my thoughts , whatever comes up . You know , um , sometimes the music or a podcast or whatever can sometimes be a distraction from that . Or it's just after so long . You know , I've done these ultras .
Uh , I did a 50 miler with no headphones . You know just running , you know chitchat with other runners or whatever , but yeah , I just want to be present in what I'm doing . But the safety part of it is it is part of it .
All right , I got to ask you , man , what's your uh number one song on your playlist ? Oh , geez .
My curve ball I have . My music is so eclectic . I've been listening to slipknot a lot lately .
Yeah .
The new or old stuff . Older stuff like duality , your face , you're older stuff . I don't even know the new . I don't know new music . I'm like I'm 38 . I feel like I'm getting out of touch . Everything I listened to is from when I was , uh , high school , early 20s . Um , I've been listening , yeah , I've been listening to heavier metal .
When I run lately which is when I do wear music which is is is new for me .
A lot of times it's hip hop , oh , more so , yeah , All right , I'm going to ask you you don't have to say my podcast , but what's your go to podcast , man ?
¶ Trail Running Nutrition and Race Discussions
I know it's not mine , I just had to put that in there .
Oh , it's going to everybody's , it's probably Rogan .
Hey , that's mine , that's mine . He's the goat man , he's the goat , it's .
Rogan or rich roll Okay . Rich roll , rich roll it depends , yeah , but I got a lot . I got a lot of just comedy ones I listened to that are just silly , you know yeah , but uh , what's the comedy one . Oh man , my current favorite is flagrant . Uh , andrew Schultz is a standup comedian .
Yep .
And it's him and , like it's other standup comedian buddy , uh Akash , and a couple of their . They have a couple of their other buddies there and it's just , it's just hilarious , it's it is irreverent . So it may not be for everyone , oh yeah .
Schultz is man , schultz the goat , he's the next . Dave Chappelle man . Yeah , yeah , he's . Cracks me up , I got you All right . So , nutrition , you said you're six , five , I'm six . One on a good day , nutrition , I work out to pretty much eat any pizza , because I'm the pizza , I'm a sewer that I want afterwards , you know , or nice burger , or whatever .
Is it anything goes ? Or do you stick on a strict diet ?
I'm not that strict . Um , I have been at times . I keep wanting to be , but not wanting bad enough to do it . So I'm like I'm a big boy for doing . I'm six foot five . I'm like two , 75 , right now I'm a , uh , I've run races at two , 25 and I've run races at two , 75 .
Um , I like it better when I'm , when I'm a little bit leaner , but uh , but uh . But the food is is . You know , I can go throw it out of 40 , 50 mile week and if I eat whatever I want to eat , it doesn't move the needle , you know . I know the food is a much bigger part of it .
Um , but currently I would be lying if I said that there was any real structure too . But I was putting my body and I do fall into that trap of hey , I just ran 15 miles , I was out there for three hours . I can have whatever I want I got you , I got you All right .
So my question to you . It's a stable question . Um , do you eat peanut butter or jelly sandwiches ? Oh , no , no , no .
That's not what I was a child .
What ? What's your go to ? Uh trail food then ?
So I've been in addition to like the tailwind that I take , which is like an electrolyte drink and then spring energy gels . But as far as actual food food I've been doing potato dishes . I've been doing potato wedges a lot lately . I'm uh , it's hard for me to eat when I'm out there .
I'm learning each thing and I'm training myself , but man , it does not sound good to me ever . I have to just get it down . So , whatever , I can still make something simple that I can just get in so I have the fuel to keep going .
You know , maybe if I was hiking more I might take a break , sit down , eat a snack , but I'm kind of trying to eat on the go , keep running . You know , it's just for fuel . So those are probably my go tos . I'll throw a neutral green bar in there Sometimes .
But when you go to these trail races and you hit their aid stations , I mean these aid stations are like buffets and so I'm always hitting the fruit , the banana , the watermelon , the dates , the pickles , that kind of stuff , yeah , I was going to ask you what's your go to when you're on a trail race , so you just said yeah .
Watermelon , and bananas and pickles are definitely the top three .
It took me a minute to do the pickles , but I have to do it . Do the pickle juice . I don't do the pickle juice , I'll just oh yeah , if it's those little tiny whole ones deal gross . You know , I just said gross , and no , it has to be spears , it's just a texture and taste . I too am a finicky eater .
When running I don't like to eat , but I am number one dry food eater connoisseur when I'm out in the trail , because I can handle that other than that man outside of it , just oh man . Sometimes I don't even eat until a day after my race is ended too , and just that's how I am , the same way . So , my buddy , my buddy will finish .
You know , I pasted him . He did a 50 miler and I pasted him for half of it and as soon as he was done he was at McDonald's , exactly , and I did a 50 miler and I came home and I was like I know I should eat and I tried to eat and I'm talking , it would not even go down . My body was like no , I don't . Yeah , it's the next day for me .
I'm not one of these people that gorges like right after . And it's funny , you mentioned the pickles .
So I didn't know the pickles were a thing until I did my first trail race and I got to the age station and there's pickles out and I was like I don't know why , but that sounds so good to me right now Like I looked at it and immediately craved it and was just putting them back and I learned afterwards that's a pretty common .
Yeah , I want to get some of those salts in , I guess . Yeah , it's quick .
It's a quickest way to get in the salt .
Yeah .
Yeah , so what's the one thing that's on a table at an age station that you don't go near ?
Oh , any of the like pretzels or chips , any of that dry , salty stuff . I just I'm out there running and my mouth is dry and I'm just not wanting to put more dry crafters or whatever in my mouth . I want it to be like softer foods , sweeter , sweeter foods .
We're a total different oh really , people on that man , I have to have that , that the dry , dry , the dry , the stuff that will just sit in your mouth and you just water it down One sip at a time , man , okay .
I'm curious to see as I increase distances and I'm out there longer . You know , maybe that'll change , because maybe I'll , I'm assuming I might need a little more than bananas and watermelons , you know . I know there's people out there eating burgers and soup and all kinds of things that we'll see .
I don't know how they do it , man , I got a 32 hour endurance run this weekend and I'm just I'm just thinking ramen noodles is going to be my friend , I believe especially in later hours , man , but are you that type that will take an Oreo cookie and eat it If it's on the aid station ?
I don't think I've ever had a cookie .
All right , all right , I'm going to . I'm going to let you know , man , when it's already open , the pack right , and it's all been air dried , it hits a lot different with then . When you first open it and hit it , dude is the outer part , you know . The cookie is more crispier and the texture is different than it's all you know .
When you open it it's all soft and gooey kind of thing , like the middle . Yeah , when it's been open for half a day , best time to eat an Oreo cookie .
I thought so it's sadder .
Yeah , I thought somebody was on crack when they set up . But man , once I figured that out and knew that secret , dude Oreo cookies . Here I come , Trust me it's different when it's been open .
So you got to let those Oreos breathe a little .
Yeah . So the first aid station , especially if it's an out and back . Don't touch those Oreos yet . It's like when you have to turn back and it's like midday . Trust me , I'll remember that , yeah , so what's your next race ?
October 28th I'm going to do another 50-miler . It's called man Against Horse and it's in Prescott , arizona . So it's 50-miler If you get about 8,000 feet of climbing . It's a smaller local race . It goes From what I've seen on the course map . It starts to press the value , it goes up and then down Mount Mingus and it's just one big loop to the finish .
The coolest part of it is man against horse . You're racing horses as well as other runners , so there's riders out there on horses . You're all competing against each other . It started in 84 , I believe 84 was inaugural .
You started with a bar bet Some guy I could beat your horse in a race , type of I can't remember the gentleman's names , but type of conversation , and I kind of birthed the idea .
They're probably drunk , drunker than us . I'm like , hey , I get beat , yeah , I got you .
So the appeal is like it's a smaller local race . I don't think a ton of people know about it . If you watch the videos on it , it's real basic . Their timer , their clock , is like an old wall clock you'd see in an office . The signs are just looked like they're hand painted and just within what the horse is , it just seems like such a unique race .
That was kind of what drew me to it .
I've heard some about that . What now are the horses going full tilt ?
I don't know . I know that they have to stop . Oh , I'll find out .
I know that they have to stop .
I don't think they're galloping over 50 miles and going up and down a mountain . I'm sure they're not going full speed the whole time . I do know there's like vet aid stops along the way , that they have to stop and do a check , make sure everything's okay with the horse .
Every so often they've got to stop for a certain period of time and get checked out because you want to keep the horses happy and healthy .
But yeah , I got to read , I started to read through the guidelines and there's some stuff in there about brightness of headlamps and they got to be dimmable because you don't want to spook the horses if it's dark and if it's got a ribbon on its back it's potentially a kicker .
So yeah , man , it can be 12 o'clock and 90 degrees outside during the day and , no matter what , you can spook a horse yeah . So it's like just stay away from the back .
I've never been around horses , ever . I've never ridden a horse , so it's like I don't know . I think that's just the way I do it . Just sign up for it and go do it , we'll figure it out .
Just make sure you get some distance , man , and if you got a tree or a bush in front of you , just make sure you just stay . Just have something , some space and use a soft voice . Don't be like , hey , how's it going ? All right , all right , yeah , yeah , Don't do that . Just like hey . On your left , yeah , yeah .
Exactly exactly when you are on the trail getting ready for a race or going or traveling to the race , do you get pumped up , Do you get a different mindset , Do you ? Are you that quiet one ? Or do you listen to music and be like , all right , I'm ready ?
No , I'm probably much more calm , much more reserved . I get up super early . I like to really take my time , eat some food , get some coffee . I might put on some music , but if I put on some music it's chill .
¶ Race Planning and Bucket List Dreams
I think getting too hyped up at the beginning of an ultra , I don't know that that's going to be beneficial . You're going to be out there so long , I don't . You know you don't want to go out too fast , you don't want to go out all gunk-o and blow yourself up in the early part .
I stay pretty chill , you know , and I'm also , you know I'm not something like I'm podium finishing these races . I'm just as of recently , you know , mid to a little bit of the front of the mid-pack , you know .
So dude , you don't have to tell me , man , you're out there , you're out there , you're conquering it . I mean it can be worse .
You can be on the couch you know , and then when I was playing basketball , I was that guy . I wanted the music in the headphones , I wanted to get hyped up . The running stuff is I don't really do that , and I don't really do that in my training runs either . I kind of just slow roll into it .
I'm just like I'm going to be out here a while and this is all about just being steady and consistent . You know , that's one of the things I worked on with my coach .
A lot too was up until working with her , I would go out way too fast in the beginning of these races and it'd be good for the first half and then I just dragging myself through the back half of it . You know , and working on , let's go steady , steady , steady , and then let's start building towards the end . You know . Yeah oh yeah .
Yeah , well , that's good , that's good .
Yeah .
It's a humbling experience once you figure that out .
The only time I want the hype up music and stuff is usually when I'm doing those speed workouts and doing some sprints , those minerals . Then I want whatever extra edge I can get to get a little extra home fault taken then .
But Next year . What's the one race that's on your mind right now for next year , besides your your every year race ?
Next year . So I'm really considering doing Black Canyon 100K next February . So that would be another bump up in race distance . Yeah , like I said , I definitely want to . The plan right now is to do all these higher race distances , but I want to properly work myself up through the distances and experience them all .
That's kind of a pretty big race that they do here . You get a lot of the big name people coming out here and racing it . It is the winners get . I believe the winners get I don't know if it's the top two , top three get entries into Western States . I believe Top two .
The golden tickets . Yeah , Eric Sinsman is the connoisseur there . The Canyon , Black Canyon .
And then if you finish for someone like me , I think , if you finish under 17 hours , you get a lottery ticket , so you get a chance and Western States .
You got a chance .
Yeah , yeah , Western States is definitely probably . It's the toss between that and one other race . It's like probably my bucket list race would be able to do Western States one day .
You're doing stuff right , man . I mean you're one step after another , after another , but I mean your pavement running , man , you went straight half marathon . That's big , that's a big step and you're in the right course , man , you're doing it , you're doing it . Give yourself some credit , man . Yeah , what's your number one bucket list ? Running-wise .
It's a toss up for me , it's a toss up between Western States . And then there's a race here , the Kokey Dona 250 .
Oh , yeah , yes .
That is definitely something I want to be able to do in the next . I don't know two , three years , like whatever is realistic , but even though it's only been around for like three years , I feel like it's already a pretty well-known , iconic 200 plus miler and it's in my backyard . Yup , yeah , it's a toss between that and Western States for me right now .
Have you paced it ? Kokey Dona would probably happen , would more likely happen before Western States .
But have you paced anybody yet there ?
At Kokey Dona . Yeah , no , no , I've paced some buddies at some local races here , but I haven't been out there yet .
Curious . If somebody asked you , would you ? Oh yeah , you're like , yeah , all right , I'll be talking to you soon then , because I'm doing it next year .
Are you really ? Yeah , I'm doing it , dude , I will 110% come out and face you .
I'm doing it , doing it . It's already been said and done Love it that's so stoked for you .
Yeah , I was like I'm either going to find somebody to pace or I'm going to volunteer and go with my gimbal and go out there and video people for the live feed . I want to be involved in it somehow or work at a aid station , whatever , but I'm dead serious , I will pace you All right .
Well , we'll get some things started , but yeah , all right . Yeah , definitely . Do you know why I've signed up for it , though it's not a lottery yet ?
Yeah that's why I was like , hopefully probably be able to do that before Western States , because I could just hopefully pay to get it . Yes , yes , yes .
Just like the crowds on famous or big trails , man , I stay away from permits and lotteries , and if those two are intertwined with my climbing and racing , I just soak up the doughnut before the triple crowds , man , just because I just don't believe in it . I just don't believe in it .
And then when Ben Light and Mike McKnight have their race , I'm going to sign up for that one too . Can't wait for that one , that's going to be all yeah , so we'll be in touch . We'll be in touch .
¶ Supportive Spouse and Training Balance
What does the lady say about all this ?
She's super supportive . I joke around , she's super supportive . It is a time commitment and there's some negotiating sometimes on how much time , especially with the little one . That's a big part of the reason probably why I've stayed closer to home , hit the local trails , as opposed to going out somewhere and spending a weekend so I could do another mountain .
But no , she's super supportive . She's been to almost all of the race finishes . This was something that I was doing when we met Her father , my father-in-law . He's a marathon runner . Him and I have actually run a marathon together , so she's used to it with him and she knows how important and she sees the benefits that I get out of it .
So , no , she's super supportive . I probably get more self-conscious about the time commitment than anyone . I can feel bad about , like hi guy , yeah , seeing four hours of the training run , but most of the time , honestly , it's not that bad . It's just peak week . That's what it is , but it is what it is .
Do you ever get downtime ? We're almost done . Do you get downtime ?
I do so like on a larger scale . This is the first summer . Usually I take the summers off from like formal training .
Really Wow Okay .
This is the first summer here that I mean I'll run in the summers , but I just kind of go out and do whatever I feel like , have fun . If my buddy's doing a long run , I'll go join them for that I'll go pay some . I just don't have any structured formal training during the summers Usually .
This is the first time I'm training for a like fall race , so I'm training through the summer . So usually I'll kind of dial it back in the summer and that's what I was kind of saying .
Like those peak weeks , you know it can be pretty time consuming but I look at it like the balance , more , like on a macro scale of like okay , this is the season for this and I'm going to spend more time doing this , but in the summer I'm not going to be doing this high of volume .
I'll be around more , more sleep in on the weekends or whatever , and then on a weekly basis . You know I take Mondays are always a dedicated rest day . I'm not like a run streaker where I'm going every day .
Yeah , like got any more hours .
Yeah .
Trials .
Mondays are always total rest day . Fridays are like optional . It's a cross training day , it's a super easy 30 minute run or it's a rest day , and I've been . I've been taking it as a rest day recently . I've been doing like five days a week . You know I still got to keep some balance and not burn myself out or injure myself .
Right , right , because I was going to ask that . I was going to ask you when is your down ?
Like your down season , like mine , is like right when it hits Thanksgiving to Christmas , and then the first , I love going to the gym on the first , which I'd hardly go to the gym because I'm always inside because it's all full tilt and then , like a week later , it's like oh , I'm the only one in the gym , I don't know . So when is the winter time ?
You're full blown outside .
Usually , yeah , because I mean here that's the prime time , you know , that's when it's highs of 60 and 70 . That's the prime time to go .
You know , I look at it like you know , growing up in Alaska , summer was like you got this three , four months of summer and it's a beautiful summer , but it's you got this window of time and then you have this whole winter where you're not outside as much and like , well , that's usually how I kind of looked at the summers here , except for this year .
But yeah , I'll usually take some downtime . Like I said , I'll still run , I'll still get 20 mile weeks or something like that . It's just there's no , there's no dedicated . I got to go out and get my eight miles today or anything like that . It's more casual .
Okay , well , did I leave anything out ? You want to add anything , man ?
Oh man , I don't know , I don't think so . Okay , well , I think of .
Continue on your quest , man . It's great to see people do their thing and be successful . You , my friend , have been both and doing both and being successful , and I'm pretty sure , once you get it all dialed in , your brand will be successful . I'm pretty sure , if you put it out there next week , you're going to be successful .
So , um , dude , keep keep doing what you're doing . Man , you're , you are turning heads and people are recognizing you . I think I was just a little too late to put you on my podcast , but I'm always like , should I ? I don't know if they ?
You always have that doubt , you always have that doubt , but I went ahead and asked me I went ahead and asked and said , yeah , I was like , woohoo , you know that kind of thing .
So , because I am a fan of yours and whatnot , and keep doing what you're doing , man , um , I appreciate what you stand for , what you do mental health wise and , you know , not a normal guy on a trail like myself , you know so .
Yeah , I mean , I guess sorry , but if that , if there's anything that I could add that's a big reason why I'm putting this up out there is like this is for everybody . You know , you don't have to be some elite level runner to go out and do this , and you don't have to be able to go out and run an ultra or a half marathon .
If you can get out and you can run around your block , your block for a mile and you take five walking breaks , you still ran a mile , just like anybody else ran a mile . So like , just want to incur , like it's giving , it's benefited me so much and I enjoy it so much .
I just want to encourage other people to go do it and not think like , oh , I'm not a runner . Like you , go out and do it , you're a runner .
You're doing it and you're kicking butt and taking names , but just remember , just because you're not fast as a mate mean you didn't do it or you're not a runner yourself , so 100% . So , chris man , I appreciate your time . Man , I would really like for you to come back , especially maybe before after a coconut man .
Yeah , we're going to come back and do a coconut recap .
All right , because I'm doing it . I already told my wife . I didn't tell my wife I signed up for it , though she found out after a post . That's a good one to do . You can do it .
That's a good one to do a charity bit before to be fundraising for ? Yeah , that would be , but then I would have to talk to you because you're the expert at it .
I'm not an expert , I just like . I just know how to promote . I don't know how to fundraise , so it probably goes hand in hand . But I don't like harassing people or it makes it feel like harassing , oh yeah .
Yeah , so I didn't get over that hurdle . Yeah , chris , thank you for your time , man , sorry about that .
Yeah , Chris . Thank you for your time , man . Sorry about the trouble . Have fun , Keep having fun . People see it . People will definitely float to you , man . So yeah , take care .
Right on . Thank you , yeah .