MikeyPod 354 | Composer Molly Joyce

Hello, and welcome to Mikey Podd podcast, episode 354 for November 8th, 2022. On this episode, composer Molly Joyce is joining me on the occasion of her new album perspective. This is Molly's second appearance on this podcast. Welcome back, Molly. And I'm endlessly fascinated by the way her work focuses on disability as a creative source. And I wanna give you this quote. I wasn't gonna get into this yet, but I have to, I know we're still in the intro. Let's not go too deep,

but I want to give you this quote from Pitchfork. In their review of this album, they said, Perspective, This album is a powerful work of love and empathy that underscores the poison of ableism in American culture. Hi, come on for that poll quote, . So we'll, I'll be talking to this composer and we'll be listening to some of her music today too. Uh, I am your host, by the way, Michael Herron. I'm a composer, pianist, electronic musician, storyteller,

and dormant activist based in New York City. On this podcast, I have conversations with fellow creators who use their creativity to change the world. I've been sending this podcast to your ears for over 17 years. If you like what you hear, subscribe using the colorful buttons in the sidebar and footer@mikeypodd.com. Or just search Mikey Podd in your favorite podcast directory. If you'd like to know more about me, you can stop by my website@michaelherron.com,

and I really would love to hear from you. Hello, welcome to the show. This is the check in time where I talk about the things I would like to check in about . Um, I'm working on some, I I've been in this phase lately of, um, how do I do this without getting too deep? I, uh, my, my teaching, I'm, I'm a teacher. I've probably mentioned this a million times on the show. Um, my piano teaching business this year, I got very serious about, uh, policies, billing,

a lot of different things just so I could really make it a business. And, um, this has me on top of my budget in a way I never have been before. Um, and I'm thinking about starting to post this progress on YouTube. I don't wanna go too deep in it right now, but . But the general idea is, holy shit, I'm 53 years old, um, in a ton of debt and, um, I don't have anything say for retirement. So ,

what do you think about that as a YouTube channel? Um, but one of the reasons is I came to a place finally where I kind of realized like, okay, so there's no shame here. Like, this is just the situation. And I think that shame is something that kind of has me in this position where, you know, I grew up at a time, well, I mean, it's still that time, isn't it, where being an artist and a musician is sort of like, eh, not considered a real thing. And I really internalized that a lot.

I also have pretty scorching case of adhd, which makes it difficult to see bigger picture stuff, but there's a lot of, like, I feel like I've kind of come to a place where I'm like not as feeling shameful about that, uh, as I did before. So anyway. Does that resonate with you at all? If I were to start doing a series of videos about that? Partly because I've been looking for someone who is in this position who's doing videos about getting out of it,

and you don't really find that exact thing. Uh, so it might be interesting to, to just put it out there. Um, yeah, I'd really love your feedback on that. If you're listening and, and it registers with you. Um, if you do feel like asking questions like, How would you let this happen? Or any other sort of shaming thing, please just keep that to yourself. I, I don't, I'm already good with that kind of that perspective. Thanks. Um, the other thing is that I'm starting another creative project.

It's a very small one, um, that I'm hoping to have wrapped up by the end of the year and, um, to share with folks. So I'm just saying that also to keep myself accountable. Uh, and that's really the check in that I have for you today. Um, I wanna make sure, I think my subscribers on Patreon for powering this podcast. These are people who subscribe for $5 or more a month and get special perks, like tons of free downloads of my music and zines and bonus podcasts.

There are now, this, this week's will be the 91st bonus podcast. I can't believe it. I still can't believe I, what is this episode? 300 something of 354 podcasts plus 91 now bonus podcasts that if I could add quickly, I'd tell you what that total is, But that's a lot of podcasts.

That's a lot of podcasts. Um, well anyway, you'll have immediate access to all those podcasts when you subscribe, including this week's bonus episode, which we'll feature an extended conversation with today's guest, Molly Joyce. The track we're about to listen to is, uh, called interdependence,

but I wanna talk to you about the premise of, of what you're about to hear. Um, Molly interviewed 47 different people about how these different words, what they meant to them, uh, so that you're gonna hear the responses, What does interdependence mean to you? And you'll hear it, it, it's gonna make sense now. So I'll stop talking and let's listen to Molly Joyce Interdependence. And this is from the album perspective.

What is inter. I was foundational part of existing. For me. How you interact with, with the world is a direct relationship to interdependence. Boundaries. If there's anything, I would say that I'm interdependent on my chair as a tool, not as a place, um, or my locker or whatever I use as a tool. Uh, but I don't consider myself interdependent on people. Plus. I'm also chair and knowing one's strength and. Weakness. And. Embracing those. Things. Is. Surrendering to your neighborhood.

About rejecting that mastery model that would suggest I know it all. I can do it all. I will impose it all on everyone else. And it is humbly recognizing that actually all of our lives are facilitating by multiple others, usually unseen, others, wherever any of us got it required so many others, uh, to support us. And we should value that rather than suggest that it's some sort of weakness. Collaboration. Access and inclusion and lack of access and exclusion are interdependent on each other.

A way of life for me. I mean, I feel like so much about life is that exercise and inters, you know, as somebody who needs, needs total help with daily activities, uh, you have to share yourself with others. You have to share your privacy to with others. You have to be dependent on others and, uh. Have. A lot of life care. Mm-hmm. Wellness, both at your, the ability to do things all, you know, people that, to be incredibly at a, a loss control.

It's. About being invested in others' lives just as much as your own to be connected to each other. Cause you want be, and you need to be, um, not cause you're expecting something in return. I think human beings are naturally interdependent. I get here by the bus driver in the shop that sells me milk or coffee, uh, my porter at the door of my building. All of those other things which we take for granted enable us to live the life we appreciate.

And I think that normally people ignore it and they think the disabled people are the ones that need extra help, but we're all interdependent. The. Only way to be successful and in truth in some ways to be happy is that kind of interdependence you get when you engage with other human beings. So. Interdependence is that reliance that we have back and forth, that exchange we have, not just for physical need, but also emotional need. Um, it's the fact that it's not, I, it's never, I, it's always.

Realizing that we all have our care networks and we all need them.

That was interdependence from Molly Joyce's new album perspective. And Molly Joyce is joining me for a second visit to the podcast today. Thanks so much for being here. Yeah, thanks so much for having. Me. It's so cool to sort of like touch base again after, you know, it's been at least a couple years. I should have looked up to see when I talked to you last. Do you have a new album perspective and the track we just listened to

Interdependence is from that. Um, is it, is it possible to give like a, the elevator pitch, I guess it's called? How much time do you have now, ? Um, um, yeah, the album, I call it kind of like a disability interview album. Um, so it features what I like to say, like the voices and viewpoints of disabled interviewees responding to, um, concepts like what is access for them, um, what is care for them. And. It's, and it was originally a, um, installation. Yeah.

Like there's so much I learned about this that I didn't realize this was all going on. Yeah. It's more of, yeah, definitely the initial impetus was an installation for like a public art festival, um, as part of a fellowship. Um, I was involved with that House Arts lab in dc which then that was like from

2019 to 2020, just so that, of course that festival got canceled with Covid. Um, and then from that, I guess with the Covid cancellation, but I think even from the start of the project, I was, I wasn't always envisioning as an album to be honest, but I was trying to keep it as flexible as possible. I think especially Covid showed me to do like online presentations or the video formats, et cetera. Um, although I still, I don't, I probably shouldn't say this, but I do like the dream format for it.

Is the installation, like very, very much being immersed in it with the sound and the projection in front of you. The inspiration for the album was really interesting to me as, as it's written about in the press stuff. Can you talk about that a. Little? Yeah, so I guess the, um, so I, I'm fortunate to have a kind of, I, um, an ongoing whatever dialogue if you will, with Judy Human, who's kind of a legendary disability activist. Um, she had this,

a memoir come out a few years ago. I highly recommend. And she's also featured prominently in Crip camp, um, the Oscar nominated documentary on Netflix. Um, and, and one of my conversations with her, um, she's really just, she's such an amazing mentor to so many people cuz I feel like she always knows the right question to ask at the right time, kind of progress your thinking. Um, and in one of my conversations with her, she asked why I referred to my left hand this week. Um,

and my left hand was impaired in a car or accident about 20 years ago. Um, and I knew that I would always say like if I had to explain why I couldn't do something or lift something, et cetera, or if someone asked what happened, I would usually just say like, Oh I have a weaker left side. Just to try to get it over with, I think, and kind of get my disability out of the room in a way, like as fast as possible or not go into a deep explanation.

I think also a lot of times for disabled people, like sometimes when you go into a deeper explanation it elicits more questions, which can sometimes be really nice conversation or lead to a not so nice conversation. It would be a little more, I don't know the right word, traumatizing or so sometimes would try to just get it out of the room as quickly as possible. Um, and this question really struck me cause I don't think Judy was saying I have to

refer to it as my strong left side and deny weakness altogether. Um, but really to think about what weakness means to, you know, myself as a disabled person. Um, but then we just started talking about it as a really a central concept for disability culture and the disabled experience. Um, and really wanted me to motivate, like motivate me to ask like yeah. To of people across the range of disabilities and experiences really.

Like what is weakness to you or what does that feel like to you? Um, what do you gain from that concept? I didn't write this number down. Was it 47 different people that you interviewed for this? Am I remembering that number or I just make it up. ? Oh yeah, yeah, so far. Um, yeah, so I think, yeah, with the project's taken a couple different iterations, which has been nice. So it started with that kind of original iteration in DC which I think I had about 20 participants with that. And then, um,

took on a new iteration with Minnesota with a festival there. Um, and then won in Idaho with a disabled dance group there. It's such an interesting project because of course it makes me think differently about disability, hearing the perspective of all these different people. Mm-hmm.

, um, and you know, our conversation that we had last time, really, like, I think the thing that's really so cool about your work, it sort of raises questions about assumptions I've always had, you know, or you know, we talked the last time we talked, um, about virtuosity as musicians and um, and it really sunk in with me because, you know, for what, having studied music too, like that whole, you know, there was a whole part of being a musician that was about like being,

like music was about being able to achieve particular movements, like being able to play a particular way. Yeah. And so that sort of really opened my mind about like, wait, that's not what music is like. And our conversation really, you know, opened that up for me. And I think this really, I don't know like the the question about why, uh, why you would refer to your left hand as weak, really it opens up all these, these questions that I haven't asked.

And I think that's why uh, I get a little bit like stumped about like, ah, how do I express this? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. What was that answer like for you? Now? I'm wondering if you even answered it already. Yeah. But like what, how did you answer that question when, when she asked? Yeah. It's funny cuz I believe, if I remember correctly, I think I was telling her about a collaborator of mine j Herman. And we both have like impaired left sides.

And I think I said we both have weaker left sides and I think that's where she started getting on the weakness, um, track in a way. Um, and I think I was, I, it's kind of speechless. I think I had a response. Cause again, it's like these words that you're so used to saying to kind of explain your condition or, you know, in this case the collaboration. Um, so really stumped me.

And I feel like even to this day having done these interviews, I still feel, um, just as confused, I think in a good way more, I don't have a clear answer. I mean, sometimes I feel like my answer to the questions is maybe through the music, but that's very much drawn from the interviewee's answers. Um, so for me, I think I still feel like at a starting point with those questions, I feel like in a good way though, where I don't have a very prescribed answer.

There's, I just think a lot about, and I put some of this in in my email to you when we were discussing this show, that like another thing with me is that I'm, I'm older, I'm fiftys 53, I'm old enough that I'm forgetting how old I am. And um, and reading glasses is something that I need now. I became aware of this long time of just like struggling through and like, no, I don't need those yet. And just trying to hide the fact from myself. Yeah.

You know, and I still like sort of make sort of comments when I have to get out my reading glasses now to read something like, ah, I'm like so old. But I think that something about your work reminds me like oh yeah. Like we are all just in the bodies that we're in. Yeah. Um, I don't Does that, does that go anywhere for you? Like. Um, I think, I don't know if I'm gonna articulate it well, but like that we're, I don't know we're,

we all strive towards the ma the maximized body I think in a way. And um, I think even the question of cure, like one of my interviewees said, you know, from the moment we're born we start deteriorating in a way where we grow up. But then, uh, like we're always on this process of disabling in a way,

which I found really interesting. Um, and I think your comments, I don't know if maybe cuz this is like top of the mind, but I watched this TV show like last week and one of the characters, there was a reality show and she said, I don't want to end up like that person in a wheelchair.

Cause she had like hip issues surgery. And it's like, I feel like if you take that sentence and apply to like, well I don't want to end up like a female or like, it would sound so wrong that it's amazing to me how a lot of these ableist thoughts like get reiterated through society and I have it myself as well, you know, or I'm going through physical therapy for various things related to my disability. But it's like disarming when you start, start to lose some of that too. Or you just, um,

very frustrating first I guess in a way. And, um. And so many of these ableist things that we say are still somehow acceptable, quote unquote, like in our society. It just amazes me. And I don't mean to like, I'm not a very con confrontational or I don't really like conflict and I don't mean to say like, that word is bad, this word's right or something. It just more amazes me that these phrases, you hear that again, if you apply it to another minority,

it would sound like completely out of whackers or completely problematic. And, um, and I think it doesn't help anyone like the non-disabled or disabled person these words and terms or these, um, perceptions overall of this fear and stigma of disability. Mm. Yeah. And this sort of shame that people, it implies a certain amount of shame that people are expected to feel about not having the right kind of body. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Or like, but um, cause it's like, yeah, I think when I initially started getting into disability studies, so I was thinking like, yeah, like what is the right tip of the body to, you know, I just started thinking like, what are we all striving for? Like I don't have a clear image in my head or something as.

Yeah. Like. Yeah, there's a, there was a moment I had, it was a while ago, but I try to kind of clinging to it this idea of like, what if the big joke on all of us is that really our like perfect, uh, incarnation or our perfect existence happens like the split second before we die. Like the whole process of our lives is to get us to that point of perfection. Yeah. Like all our aging and all these things we're trying to do to avoid getting

older is like No, that's, that's the thing that that's the gift. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Um, what, doing all these interviews, um, did you learn anything that you didn't expect to learn from conducting these interviews and listening to, I'm sure you listened to them countless times. Yeah, definitely. I'm trying to think. Or, cause this whole thing has been done over a process of three years, you know, or so some of the editing was, or sorry, like two years ago.

So it's not super fresh in my mind. But, um, definitely learning on the perspectives. I think especially I related to a lot of interviewees who acquire disabilities, like I think it was the question about, um, is it or cure again? Um, like in one interview he talks about who acquired her disability.

I believe the vision impairment just says like, yeah, you always wonder about like, what if that didn't happen or, or for me, like that accident, but then you wonder who you would be today, like without that or if you'd be the same person. That kind of gives me chills in the course. I mean, I personally don't think about it all the time, but it's hard not to, or especially when you're fresh off the accident to think like, Oh,

if that didn't happen. Um, and also I think especially with the, um, the Minnesota iteration, like the last four tracks on the album, I interviewed a lot of, um, um, participants with vision impairments. Um, and like one of the questions with darkness, um, and I think that was super interesting. Some of the answers I received, um, even some of them were like, and darkness is still teeth twirled, the color,

it's not completely dark, you know? And, and a lot of the darkness doesn't scare me in a way, especially for blind people. And um, just very, very interesting for me. Uh, it's, it's one of those albums too that I'm like, Oh, I need to listen to that. There's so many pieces of what's happening. I've listened to the album, but as you're talking about it, I'm like, Oh, I should go back and re-listen to so many of these things. I. Quickly kinda.

. Yeah. The, um, I, I'm curious like from a musician standpoint, what, what that process was like. Like did, did you set out from the beginning of this, and my apologies, you may have answered this question already, knowing that you were going to assemble all these pieces of interviews into, or did you walk into it sort of with an openness, not sure where they, things would land? Yeah, I think I wasn't totally sure cause I'd never done a project like this.

I had been longing to make my work more communally engaged in a way or highlighting other viewpoints rather than just mine, but was struggling I think for a while to find a way to do that really authentically and almost like ethically in a way too, or not override it with my like, artistic stamp in a way mm-hmm. . And so at the beginning I remember, or I knew I was in this fellowship in DC so I knew this festival was coming up, so I was like, let me just start doing the interviews.

Like I have the questions, I'll record it. And first I was like, let me just get the interviews done. I'll think about the next stage or how I go about. And I guess I just, I think I had this inclination that I just started editing them down to the highlights for each interview. Um, putting them in a temporal order from that and then adding my music underneath.

Um, but it was definitely, and it was interesting last year I did the Minnesota iteration, um, or wrote that and it's definitely the most challenging music I think I've written in a way, or, or like, yeah, challenging to write just cuz I don't wanna override their opinions too much and I'm trying to give a, you know, like ambient intuitive musical feeling in a way, but also make the music interesting and not just like a drone or not something that doesn't develop, um mm-hmm. ,

I'm usually pretty happy with the results in the end. But I think during it, especially last year I was like, Oh, why did I do this to myself again? just cause it's so different. And I also, I guess I wrote most of the music and logic like without apo, which is just very, I usually write everything down like notation wise or I'm so comfortable working that way, um, which is probably why it was good for me to do that process. But, um. Oh, that's interesting. I just like, like I'm in a,

like a world with my crave process. Yeah, yeah. Where for some. Reason doing things. Yeah. But I, but I kind of am not, I haven't done anything for a, a while and I, and I'm realizing like, oh, I, I need to regroup. Like, I'm realizing like, oh, this, I need a different process. So it's like, I, it's really interesting to hear, to hear about yours and that you've changed a bit in that you're not notating things. So did you start like,

I paused because I'm like, Oh, am I getting too ? This is too much, Is is too much for the listeners to hear these questions, but I think maybe it's worth, worth talking about. Like did you start using the, the clips, the um, choose like the audio clips you wanted first and assemble them in an order you liked and then start applying, adding the music to that? Or was there a different process than that? Yeah, definitely. And I say too, I'm glad someone's interested in the process. .

Good composer, when you're working alone, you're like, Oh, it's just me and my crazy mind. But. Oh yeah. And always wondering like, is this, is this going what I'm doing it? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You just feel like you're making it up as you go. But um, yeah, so I would, yeah, I would edit it down to the highlights for each interview.

And I guess just to add quickly too, I have on my website for who, whoever's interested, but I uploaded all the full interviews and full transcripts of interviews conducted just cuz I feel like my editing was obviously very biased and subjected. So I did wanna open it up just the have it as an option if anyone's interested.

But, um, but yeah, but then I would have the highlights for each section, like access and then, um, put it in a temporal order to like one I was usually striving for contrast between voices, like a female voice versus male voice or something. Or to not have it, like all male voices and peers to have some variety. Mm-hmm. . And then also, um, sometimes the answers I feel like really flowed into one another if they're

talking about similar things or the opposite. Like, I like to often put answers that kind of contradict each other next to each other. Um, if it made sense just to um, hopefully show the diversity and really like plurality of the disabled or disability community. Um, cuz sometimes I feel like people think disabled people have a, um, very like single minded view of say, access or care or cure. And just to really show that there's so many different viewpoints out there.

It's very individualistic in a way. Um, yeah. So it's kind of how, and then, sorry, get to get back to your question. I then I would add the music underneath. Like first it's just midi like kind of sketches. Um, and then depending on the music, I would sometimes actually make a rough score for, to record it on my organ and voice and then add processing and so forth. Mm. And then send it to my amazing engineer Michael into, to make it sound good. Oh, that's great to have an engineer too.

Yeah. Yeah. He. Yeah. The funny thing, listening to the album one, I was listening to it for the first time. I running around, I teach in the afternoons and I go from place to place. Um, and I was listening like, Oh, that's interesting. Is she using an accordion? And then I was suddenly like, No, of course not. It's the organ, it's the organ that you use. Um, but yeah, it's, it's really interesting to hear that for people who are listening,

it may not know your work very well yet. Um, the, well can you describe this court organ that you, that you play and it's, is it, it's, well it's now that you've described your compositional project process, it's not your main instrument but it's a very, the one that you use quite frequently. Yeah, definitely. It's like a, um, I use specifically a Magnus brand electric vintage toy organ. Um, most of them are from the sixties and seventies. Um, I discovered them on eBay about 10 years ago.

And I always joke it was kind of my ticket to Brooklyn, if you will. Cause it was huge vintage outta tune this weird instrument that I initially really saw as a toy or an accessory. I didn't think it was like significant enough to do, um, a major solo practice on it. Um, but then once I started adding electronics and playing around with it more, I realized that it was almost made for my body, if you will. Um, cuz it has these cord buttons on the left hand side and a keyboard part on the

right hand side. Um, so it feels very natural for me to perform on with my disability. Um, especially in my left hand, I don't have much dexterity. And those cord buttons, all you have to do is like push them in or Yeah, push them in or push them out in a way. Um, actually, sorry, pushing from both different sides or something. But, um, it feels very natural for my left hand and is featured a lot in my worst works,

especially that I perform and record on. Um, and that eventually added my, my voice and so forth. I don't know if you remember I had one of those when I was a kid in, in the, in the actual seventies. Um, but it's one of those things that's really interesting just about my, um, experience of your work because when I was a kid I wanted a piano and I was like, Ugh, this terrible thing. It sounds awful. Especially as I got older, I thought of it as this disgusting roast thing.

But it's really nice to like be like, no, that it's an instrument and you, it's yeah, beautiful the way that you use it. The instrumentation on the album we have the organ mm-hmm. . Um, and your voice, which sounds like it's been layered quite a bit in places. Is there what any other instruments going on? Are you using other synths? Anything else within that?

Yeah, just, um, my usual, I export midi from SEIUs usually, or, or sorry, this one kind of varied from sometimes the toy organ midi or midi voices from logic, um, virtual instruments or from SEIUs. It kind of varied and usually I kind of like combine those with the live sounds. Um, cause I think, I don't know, it's just the sound I like in a way. Or I like the like half electronic feeling, like non-human feeling in a way.

And yeah, it can be very precise with rhythm. Um, some, I think not a lot of tracks have this, but like the one control is a little more rhythmic and that involves like, hitting on my organ or like samples from that as well. Yeah. Um, so it's so cool. I love hearing your, your process and also that part when you, I love that you mentioned working on your own and as a composer because there's

still Yeah. , I, I have that experience a lot and I think of the first time I performed any of my work in front of anyone and this moment like a couple days before that I was like, no. Like I hadn't played any of it for anybody. Yeah. I was like, is this just like, what if this is like really shit? Like what if this is terrible? And there was no one to tell me like, Stop, don't do it.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. No, it's an interesting process. Cause at least for myself, you know, I compose a mid so much and like yeah, sometimes if you listen to like a mix, a master version of one of your pieces sounds amazing, you know, and then you go to compose and midi, it really sounds bad even if it's the most brilliant thing ever, you know? Yeah.

Something that sounds bad. And midi will sound really good live or, and so for me, I try to like, it's easier said than done, but I try to just help tell myself to keep going or especially like with this project, once I started processing the sounds a little more like getting some live

recording and it started to pick shape more I think. But, but it's hard in the composing aspect cause for me it's like I don't wanna start recording until I'm really sure on the rhythm and everything or I just like to be as sufficient as possible. But. Um, Do you record all the stuff at home? Uh, yeah. With my SM 58 , I think. So. , Oh wait, SM 58. Oh, it's a mic. Like dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. I these moments like wait, SM 58, I know what that is. Oh yeah, yeah.

SM microphone. Um, I wanted to talk a little bit about the album itself and how you've worked to make it accessible. Um, and there we, when I thought of that question, he didn't even, hadn't even realized that you had put all of the interviews up with, uh, transcripts. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Um, it's, it's just so interesting to think of making music accessible mm-hmm. , um, because it's uh, you know, it's one of those things especially as um, a non-disabled person mm-hmm.

that mm-hmm . I only recently been like, Holy shit, there's a lot that I should have been doing with my podcast and with these various things. Um, and when we're working in audio, it's embarrassingly not something that I have thought of before of like, Oh, I need to make this accessible to people who can't hear. Yeah. Um, what is that like? It maybe, Well let me let you answer instead of over describing. Oh no. Yeah. So when the project Yeah.

Was envisioned as that installation and I was really fortunate to, I have like kind of a project curator with it named Sandy Guttman, who at the time she was working at the Hirsch Horn Museum in DC um, and now she's at University of Illinois Chicago and she is just, has been such a great resource throughout the trajectory of this pro um, project.

And in the beginning we started talking about like we knew we wanted a video element and I was starting to work more and more with captioning in my videos. And then she had the idea for like the sole visual output to just be the captions, like with the question on the top and their interviews answers running through

texts at the bottom. Um, and I really love that cuz often accessibility facets, um, just in, in general with artistic context like captioning, sign language interpretation, um, audio description and so forth are kind of tacked on at the end of the artistic process mm-hmm. right before presentation. And so I feel like they're generally viewed or heard as not very, you know, aesthetically pleasing in a way, which sometimes is preferred for some users too. I'm not saying that's,

there's anything wrong with that. Um, but I always love the challenge of trying to artistically integrate it so it's really a crucial part of the artwork or if you took it away it would seem like something's missing. Um, so I really like this idea with this project or to have those videos and just be that the sole visual output and especially to leave the middle of the video frame just totally black to hopefully up to the,

the audience member's imagination. Um, I would add to the ideal format would to be ha I would to have, um, would be to have sign language interpretations for all the videos. I did explore that, but it was a little bit cost prohibitive just about the work involved. But, um, hopefully one day I'll be able to do. That. Your descriptive description of the videos kind of

presented a perspective that I hadn't realized yet. And, and I dunno if this is what you intended, but the thought of, you know, like you mentioned captions often are just tacked on and just like, oh yeah, here's this. And it's interesting that in, in your work and in these videos it's quite the opposite. That's the captions and Oh yeah, we didn't, we didn't do anything with this middle part. It's black. Yeah. Like this is about about the making it about the accessibility in a way.

Yeah, definitely. And I will point out too, there's so many other disabled artists like exploring this as well or like creative use of captioning. Like I've seen some Kim, um, Lazard, um, Liza Sylvester, I could go on or I'm definitely not the only one. Um, that I just, again, I love that challenge and it's also interesting to me too, like, um, when I start first started working with captioning,

I had a video collaborator who like really didn't want them in I think. Um, which I understand cuz I think when I first started getting disability stuff too, like we're just not used to it in a way. And it made me start thinking about how like, I think we're so conditioned in society to view accessibility facets or hear them as not like, again, aesthetically please, like as not part of the artwork.

Um, and I've even had comments with these videos since it's only text, like sometimes people will say, where's the visual? Or you should put a visual in the middle of the video frame. Um, and I just, I just find it interesting in a way, um, like what that, you know, the result of that. It's interesting the way it makes me think of like surtitles in opera, like in that setting it's like, oh we have cert like it in an opera. We treat it as like, like something special. Oh yeah. Um, may is that,

am I trying to put ableism where it isn't? You know, it just feels like because it's like this special tradition of course we're doing this, uh, but if it was something to make something more accessible to people, like, uh, I don't know if we do that. Yeah. That's interesting. I'd have to look that up more cuz um, I feel like I read an article or two about how like, opera is the most primed art form, or at least in music to have disability, aesthetics, this tradition of subtitling, um,

which is essentially captioning, you know, in a way. Um. Yeah. So I don't know. I'd have to think about it more. Yeah, I think I will also think about it more. . Well, we should wrap up this part of our conversation. It's always great to talk to you and always very like, um, whatever that thing I was trying to describe the whole time we were talking . Oh. Oh, no, thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks. And, um, your website is molly joyce.com. Um, the album is on New Amsterdam records.

And is your website the best place to go to? Like what I'm gonna say, I think it's the best place to go. Your website is great by the way, and it's so, it's so comprehensive. Is there anywhere else people should go to make sure they're on top of all things, Molly? Um, yeah, I think the website is the best resource. Thank you. Perfect. All right, well let's listen to weakness from Molly Joyce.

That's so loaded. . Yeah, it's not a word I I think about that much and I wonder why. I think weakness is one of those words that I have trouble defining insofar as it is often defined for me. And actually most people find weaknesses defined for them by somebody outside and they ends up becoming internalized. Some. Disabled people are weak some of the time, but so is everybody else.

I can find it hard to admit when I'm, when I'm, when I'm feeling weak, the openness there is also an openness to potential hurt. The default way of, of being and existing in the world. I feel a lot of like weakness and fragility in my body and that feels really connected to telling those to the world. And I interact with people who don't have that experience of their body, but I often feel like that is kind of a mis that they're, that they're living in.

Internalizing what other people think I'm able to do. I don't know how many times a day, a week, a month, a year, people say like, You're such an inspiration for doing blah blah. And I'm like, I'm such an inspiration for being on the sidewalk. Like. That's how about I'm an inspiration because I persevered through an educational track and went on to do X, Y, and Z and build this professional of career life. Why isn't that inspirational? I believe weakness is a lack of understanding.

I just wish is superpower. It does scary, ugly over aboves of, uh, you know, just a weakness, you know, really understand yourself. And I think that's, that a source of power as well. Everybody has weaknesses. And. Most of us don't like to admit to them. When I first started losing my eyesight, obviously my vision impairment was a massive weakness.

And, um, you know, that can certainly consume you with regard to every aspect of your life, whether it's, you know, um, preventing you from doing things professionally, whether it's preventing you from doing things socially, whether it's preventing you from doing things personally. Um, and if you allow that to basically, um, consume your entire life, then you end up in that dark hole or pit. And uh, that's where, you know, a lot of us have been there.

And I'll admit that I certainly have been in that dark, dark hole, um, a few times myself during my.

From Molly Joyce's latest album perspective. That was the track entitled Weakness. Thank you so much, Molly, for joining me on the podcast today. As always, if you're a patron, go by patreon.com/michael Herron and you can get a bonus podcast interview with Molly and myself. Uh, you'll get an email about that too when it, when it publishes. So, uh, thanks so much for listening and I'll see you next week. I got a run of great interviews coming, so stay tuned. If you're not subscribed,

subscribe already. I think they call it following now, now I'm just saying things. Okay, we're we're done. Goodbye.