MikeyPod 352 | Interdisciplinary Sound Artist Brian Harnetty

Hello and welcome to Mikey Podd podcast, episode 352 for October 19th, 2022. Today's guest is interdisciplinary sound artist and composer Brian Barnetti. We'll be talking about his mind blowing. I wrote this in my notes, but it literally is a mind blowing album. Uh, it's titled Words and Silences, which is a sonic portrait. This is how it's described on Brian's website of the Trappist Monk and writer Thomas Merton brings together archival recordings,

Merton made alone in his Kentucky Hermitage in 1967. Mind you, along with newly composed music by Brian Barnetti. Uh, it's a really cool album, and it's a great conversation I'm gonna have with Brian Achu here momentarily. But first, I should tell you who I am in case you're new here. I'm your host, Michael Herron. I'm a composer of pianist, electronic musician, storyteller,

and perhaps somewhat dormant activist based in New York City. On this podcast, I have conversations with fellow creators who use their creativity to change the world. I've been sending this podcast to your ears for 17 years. If you like what you hear, subscribe using the colorful buttons in the sidebar and footer@mikeypodd.com. Or just search Mikey Podd in your favorite podcast directory. If you'd like to know more about me, stop by my website@michaelherron.com.

Hit me up on Twitter only as at Michael Herron because I shut everything else down. Or you can email me@mikeypoddgmail.com. Not a ton to check in on. In my personal world, lately, I'm doing a lot of work. I put a big video up on Patreon, uh, for those of you who are patrons, if you didn't check that out, go back and check it out. I've been doing a lot of behind the scenes, like kind of housekeeping, gathering my files,

sort of getting my creative house in order. Um, it feels like I'm clearing some space for some new work and maybe some new creativity creative process. You'll hear me talking with Brian on this a little bit. Um, and, uh, that's really it. So this, it would be very boring for me to tell you about how I've found a great new way to, uh, categorize my folders of archival videos of things I've done. So that already was a little too much. Uh,

so that's what my world has been lately. A lot of teaching and, um, a lot of cleaning up files and things, and that's great. Isn't that fun? Um, I do wanna mention the NYC Podcaster Expo, which was a great time two weeks ago, two weekends ago. And, um, yeah, it was really nice to meet some fellow podcasters in person. Um, there were some cool speakers. Um, I spoke with my friend Sebastian about pod fading and, um, yeah, it was pretty cool. I just wanna mention it.

That's really all I wanna say about it. And, um, yeah, that's it. , we should get into the interview, but I of course need to thank my podcast, my, uh, subscribers on Patreon for powering this podcast. These are people who subscribe for $5 or more a month and get special perks, tons of free downloads of my music and zines bonus podcasts. There are nearly 80 of them. Maybe it's over 80 now. I keep estimating that it's 80 and I don't, I know it's not 80. Uh,

I'm saying 80. How many times did I just say 80? Uh, you'll have immediate access to all these files when you, when you subscribe, including this week's bonus episode, which will feature an extended conversation with Brian Barnetti. And we'll be talking about and listening to a not yet released recording. And I think maybe sharing this in a slightly different way, Um, I'm gonna experiment with some things because podcasting has been really fun

lately. So I wanna see what it's like to do something different. So, um, yeah, that's it. We're gonna listen to a track from Brian's new album, Words and Silences. I wanna tell you, just, just to make sure, cause I kind of said it quickly in the beginning of the show. Um, the album is based off of and includes recordings of Thomas Merton from a, a retreat he was on in 1967 in Tennessee. So you're gonna hear Thomas Merton's voice at the beginning of this piece.

So that's what's going on, . And this, you'll hear it's a really fascinating project, and it's really interesting the, the kind of questions and observations that, that Thomas Merton's observations and questions raised in. It's, it's really interesting. But this piece is called Sound of an Unpled Ren. And, uh, this is from Brian Barnett's album, Words and Silences.

Okay, now I hope we can go on recording like this. I think it will stay down. Good. Let's go. Reader. Sound of an un perplexed. To reader. No comment necessary. It's a cardinal metal lark, cardinal fly catcher, voice of the tape. Uh, comment on the silence of the Hermitage. The silence commented on also by birds. Now some experimental reading, a piece of Samuel Beckett abstract, like a painting, two dimensional, The colors, It is flat,

but fascinating. Something like clay, Paul Clay, It has a strange effect, like a message of spies is definitely affected by the media that we use. The end of the piece sounds almost metaphysical, an interesting piece of writing. I wonder how it sounds, pops. I'll play back in a minute.

Sounds very good. Now, what it brings out is the, the monotony of the language and of the syntax evading complicated statements, simply, uh, stringing together nouns and adjectives and so on, seems to emphasize the metaphysical silence behind the person, the persons that he is talking about. And in the end, the silence is emphasized as being metaphysical. This is a piece which does manifest the silence.

The perplexity is very subdued in it, and this is the right kind of perplexity, not a an emphatic perplexity, but a subdued and deep awareness that everything is perplexed.

And that in this, Getting back to a concrete elemental awareness of the things without anything that we have added to them without any comment of our own, seeing them in their bareness, their way of merging into each other, their flatness, taking away the perspective that we have put into everything, seeing them again as flat, allowing them to make their own different perspective of something underneath which we have not presupposed, which we have not put there. Honest Beckett.

That was Brian Hardy's sound of the un perplexed run from his latest album, Words and Silences. And Brian is here right now, right now, to talk to us. Uh, thanks so much for joining me today. Uh, thank you so much for having me. Um, there's so much that's kind of like encased in in what you've done here. Um, can you give a just a general rundown about what, what the project is, what the album is?

Sure. Um, it's called Words and Silences, and I like to think of it as a music portrait or a sonic portrait of Thomas Merton, who was, uh, 20th century monk writer and activist. Um, he died in 1968, and, um, this album contains recordings that he made, um, a year earlier, um, in the solitude of his hermitage. Uh, and the recordings are pretty remarkable.

They are intimate and, um, very open, and I just love the way the, the candor of his voice and the way that he speaks about a variety of subjects, including, uh, Samuel Beckett and Michelle Fuco and Sufi mystics, and the racial protests that were going on in Louisville at the time. So, uh, all of those things are really attractive to me. And then I have my own ensemble and we, um, make music to go along with the recordings. It all weaves together so beautifully.

And there's a chatbook that a accompanies the album, which, um, talks about your experience discovering his experience. Like you talk a lot in the chatbook about how the, the role of the tape recorder that he was speaking into, sort of changes depending on what he's doing. Can you talk about that a little bit? Sure. I mean, I, I mean, he, Merton immediately to my mind, uh, used the tape recorder as a, uh, as a contemplative tool, um, as a way to like, you know, both dive deeply into himself,

but also to connect with the world. Um, and he had been doing this already with, obviously with his writing, but with poetry as well, and then experimental photography and, and painting. Um, and so it just seemed like regardless of what medium he was using, um, he had that edge to it where he was discovering the medium itself, um, and also figuring out how to use it, um, as a contemplative tool. So that's, that's one thing.

And then I also started to notice that it was only like a couple days into it where he started to interrogate the tape recorder, um, as a medium and what that means, um, as a, as a person in solitude recording himself, you know, and then, and then listening back to himself, um, with the recorder being, you know, a a silent listener. And then, um, reflecting back at, uh, a distorted mirror image of himself. I, I immediately thought of, um,

uh, Samuel Beckett's play Craps last tape. I don't know if you, if you know that one. . I don't. Uh, but basically it's, um, you know, it's about an old man, uh, who has been making tape recordings of himself throughout the years. And, um, it's late in his life, and he, he, um, listens back to the recordings, of course, it's like with Samuel Beckett humor, where he's like eating lots of bananas in the background. So, but this is not,

not quite the same there. But, um, uh, I just loved that, um, that way of interrogating what is tape and what can tape reveal. And to my mind, after listening to these recordings so many times over and over again, I think what the tape started to reveal was Merton's own uncertainty. Um, you know, what I like to think of as an uncertain self, um, and his own vulnerability and openness, um, which I think is, um, actually, it's just remarkable to to hear on a recording,

and it's different hearing it than from reading it. Um, there's the old adage that, um, uh, speech conceals and tape reveals uhhuh and, uh, or, or recording or voice or recording reveals, and you can, you can hear in his voice all kinds of extra information and, um, curiosity and uncertainty that I think, um, I don't know. I find a lot of, uh, solace in that. I, I like that. I prefer that to, um, being so self-assured, um, that you seem to have all the answers.

Yeah, that, and that was one of the things that started to really grab me about the piece in a, in a track we're gonna listen to in a little bit. Well, I would love to, this is also a great time to talk about the first track, which we really haven't like discussed much yet. Um, which is the sound of the Unpled Ren. That's what we started the interview with.

And that in general, sort of comes off as a little bit more of an everyday sort of recording and just his observations, unless of course there's more there that I'm, that I'm missing . Well, I, uh, so I, it's, you know, in 2017, I, I went, um, to the Thomas Merton archives in Louisville to start to listen to these

recordings. And I had been, I had been trying to, you know, I'd been listening to all kinds of public recordings that he made, and they were all very, um, faced, uh, openly towards the public, and they felt, um, I mean, they were, they're fine. Um, but it didn't interest me very much. I just couldn't find what I was looking for. Uh, and then the archivist there handed me, um, you know, a group of recordings that, you know, that I ended up using, which he made in Solitude, um, of the Hermitage.

And I was just so struck at how different they were and how intimate they were. But yeah, this first track, um, uses the very first recording that he made in the, in the, uh, Hermitage. And, you know, I turned the track on, and he just sort of breathlessly, belted out, you know, um, really fast without any pauses or punctuation, you know, Okay, let's go, you know, and just right into it. And I just thought, Okay, here we go.

And I just seemed like the perfect way to, to begin. Uh, and then he went outside and recorded, you know, some of the, uh, floor and fauna around him, and lots of bird sounds. Uh, and then of course, this is a pattern that I seem to find over and over again where he pays attention to his surroundings and to nature. And then it drives him inward, and he starts to reveal all kinds of knowledge, you know, uh, about whatever philosophers or, uh,

religious mystics or something like that. But he's always aware of his, um, surroundings. So I wanted to ground the album in, in that, too. I didn't want it just to be some sort of like, philosophical treaty, you know, that like, uh, Burton was doing, but really to pay attention to those sounds of the birds and how the birds inspired him to think deeply about himself and the world.

Mm. I think one of the things that's really moving to me about the, your project is, it, it really, this is one of those moments I ch I'm challenged to put into words, but I think I can do it, the, the way that, you know, his exploration and his creativity and his spirituality are now like inspiring yours. You know, like you, you've discovered these recordings. And if I understand correctly, were you on retreat while you were transcribing,

you transcribed all these tapes? Is that, am I on board right with that? Yeah, I mean, I, you can tell that it takes me a long time to do a project. So this was a couple years later, and I, I was, I was in Vermont, um, on, uh, an artist, uh, residency called Marble House. Mm-hmm. , um, and it's amazing. And, and the music building is set apart and up the road a bit,

so it really felt like I could be in solitude as long as I wanted to. Um, of course then I enjoyed going down and having dinner with everybody and hanging out. But yeah, during that time, yeah, I was transcribing all of these tapes, and I, I was able to slip into the, that feeling of solitude. And then again, um, uh, the next year at, um, uh, Log Haven in Tennessee, I had another artist residency, was able to do it again,

and that one was really, really quiet and in the wintertime. And, um, but I was able to, you know, finish recording all the piano parts and like, do you know, all of that work there. So, um, it's that connecting with solitude, um, that I think helped the project along a bit. Yeah, sure. Yeah. And it's just, it's interesting seeing the, the thread of contemplation and creativity that, that he inspired, you know, years ago in the late, late sixties Yeah. 1967, it seems. Like. That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, seeing that through line and then where you're like, you know, you're leaving this through line off with having created this project and with a, with a string available to someone else to take that same contemplation and in different direction and creativity. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and of course, I mean, I have a family,

so it's a very different, uh, Oh yeah. Different experience. And, um, but, uh, eventually that moved out into the garage and, you know, like working there as well and trying to find the solitude and then the pandemic

hit. And so that forced another kind of solitude altogether. And, um, uh, and yet this material seemed to be, you know, um, a solace I would say, for me at least, to, you know, to work on it during that time period because it, it, it offered all of these different ways to embrace, uh, solitude. So it was a good, a good reminder that way, . Yeah. Uh, well, let's, let's talk a little bit about, um,

who is this? I, um, I was listening to the album for the Fir Well, I, the first time I listened to it, I was doing other things. It was when I first got it, and I was like, Oh, I'll listen to this while I'm doing something else. And I was, I mentioned in, before we started recording that, I was like, What, you know, what is this? Cause I hadn't really read about it, so I had a long subway trip. I, I'm in Brooklyn, and I was listening to it on the subway,

which was interesting for other reasons. Um, but who is this eye was, I think in my process of listening to the album, that was the moment that I was like, Oh, like I was really appreciating and enjoying the album, but that moment in, who is the si where we really feel a really human natural expression from Thomas Merton? And then your music's response to that was really powerful. Like, I, it was something I went back and listened, like, Did I hear that the way that I did ? Um, yeah. Yeah.

It's a beautiful piece. Is there anything you want to add or talk about that piece before we give it a listen? Well, that's good. I'm glad that it had that effect on you. Um, yeah, the premise of, of that particular piece is that Merton is reading a passage from the Sufi mystic, even Al Arab, and, um, uh, and then commenting on it, so it, it feels a little dry at first.

And I, I kept that in there because I just really wanted to hear that passage that he's using, which is essentially, um, comparing like two sides of the same coin, um, of different things, uh, are really the, the same thing. And it's all, you know, whatever the absolute, So it's, it's based in these Sufi, uh, texts or whatever, but the, the text also asks the question, Who is this? I? And so Merton keeps, uh, repeating that, um, again, he starts to comment on his surroundings and the Hermitage,

he's thinking about the, the gas just turning off. Um, and you can hear the ticking of the clock next to him. Um, and as he continues to question or to raise that question, um, you can hear it like audibly affect him, and there's like a little bit of a, a warble in his voice. Now, of course, this is my totally subjective interpretation of the recording. Yeah. I mean, it's, this is not fact or anything. This is just how I hear it after listening to it. I mean,

probably a hundred times it seems like, um, just again and again. Um, but that's the, the feeling that I get is that there's something revealed. And later on he asks, like, What does the tape reveal? And so to me, this is what it does. It reveals his own uncertain self and his humanity. Um, and again, you know, he he had just, um, fallen in love like, uh, uh, six months earlier with, with, um,

he had, uh, back surgery and he fell in love with his nurse. And I, I, I think he was sort of questioning, you know, all, you know, whether he should leave and, and get married or if he should stay. And, um, you could hear like that, that sadness, I guess of all of that context, all that stuff that, you know, I've read about, you know, in his journals or whatever beforehand come out in that one question. So yeah, it feels, it feels very, um, there's like a lot of, a lot of layers,

um, to unpack with just that one word. And for the music, I just tried to like, get it out of the way, you know, like try to like, keep it as, as spare as possible. Um, the music's often pretty ambient. I mean, it's not, and by that I mean, it's, there's not a lot of chord changes. I mean, it's kind of like sitting in a particular sonic world for the duration of each

piece. And I think that's on purpose. Well, it is on purpose because I, I, I want, I want the music to interact with, um, and cohabitate with the, with the recordings, but I don't, I don't want it to be like noodling. Like, you know, when it's, when it's, uh, when the words are there, I really want it to, to, um, offer that open space sonic space. Yeah. That, that, that's something that I observed about the music and sort of forgot that

I have had observed. But especially in that, and this is just from my memory of the piece, I feel like the, the music does a great job in that little spot of just sort of supporting the moment in a way. Like, it's, it's, it's, yeah, I think that's the best way I could say it. It feels very, it, it's there and it really, I don't even know how to put into, and I think that's what music does it, it expresses things that we can't find words for. That's. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

That's the goal. Yeah. For me too, . Yeah. But it, it felt very much like, sort of like, uh, how supporting him in the moment, you know, like, yeah. And also like finding the, um, the cracks and the silences, um mm-hmm. , um, and, and, um, filling those occasionally, but not always and, and, and doing it quite subtly or whatever, just to kinda like punctuate like different, um, pauses or, um, yeah, to keep it moving. You wanna keep it moving, but you also wanna, um, yeah. Keep it, uh,

minimal as possible. Yeah. , Yeah, in my mind at least. Yeah, . Uh, mission accomplished. Yeah. Not that you seeking I did. Go ahead. Go ahead. Oh, no, I was just gonna say, I did just use the word newland. So . I appreciate that you left off the G and I felt that apostrophe. Yeah, that's great. Uh. Well, let's give, let's listen to this track. Um, who is this? I, uh, from the album Words and Silences.

Sunday morning, April 23rd, fourth Sunday after Easter, some notes from a book on even Rrb, The Sufi about how the absolute is the cannot be known except as a synthesis of opposites and how God knows himself in us, and, uh, recognizes himself speaking to himself in us. This needs to be louder, I think. Hey, Rrb quotes a saying of a mystic of Baghdad and then explains it. The inward belies the outward when the latter says I and the outward belies the inward. When the latter says I,

and this applies to every other pair of opposites. In every case, the one who says something is one, and yet he is the very same one who hears. This is based on a phrase said by the prophet and what their own souls tell them, indicating clearly that the soul is the speaker and the hearer of what it says. At the same time, the knower of what itself has said in all this phenomenon, the essence itself is one, though it takes on different aspects.

Nobody can just ignore this because everybody is aware of this in himself, insofar as he is a form of the absolute. Therefore, this business of speaking and hearing oneself with a tape recorder can be regarded as an extension of the coincidence of opposites by which the absolute is present in one to return. Tobi then the inward belies the outward. When the latter says I and the outward belies, belie is the inward when the latter says, I, who is this? I, I speak, Here I am speaking.

And a moment ago, the birds were singing and the guests just turned off. Who is this I? Who am I who sit here? It's very difficult to say, Because the I who speaks outwardly, who uses this tape recorder, who speaks back to itself from a tape recorder, is to some extent an illusion. And to use a tape recorder is to perpetuate this illusion, create this elusory identity, and yet it is a real identity.

And inside, within there is that which has just canceled and denied and negated this outer identity. And yet the outer identity also calls into question. Cancels tends to negate the inner identity, and this produces the state, which Rrb calls the state of perplexity in which we are constantly canceling out each other inward and outward.

And this canceling out is the presence of God in this mutual dialectic between the inner and the outer, for which there is no union, except in the absolute who is present and who hears himself when I speak and praises himself in this perplexed awareness of an identity, which I do not know, cannot grasp, cannot understand, but must affirm in simple faith and in obedience to him who leaves me in this perplexity. And it is the best place to live.

The perplexity of this solitude in which you wonder who it is that looks at this valley and says, I, and is aware of seeing all these beings out there, which are in contrast to the eye, Which seem to deny it, and which yet affirm and the singing of the birds makes also the absolute present.

That was, Who is this? I, uh, Brian Horny from his new album, Words and Silences. Um, Brian is with me here with the album. One of the things that I think is super interesting, and I didn't really think about it much until, um, reading the Chatbook too,

this idea of the tape recording capturing. And it, I think the first track really as a great example of this too, that it's capturing the words that he's saying at the, which go back and forth between being sort of presentational like you've noted in the, uh, in the chatbook. Like he's has kind of a poet voice happening sometimes and other times. Um, but it really captures the, the time, like the, the moment that he was in this retreat.

The time and the place too, uh, which I think is really important. Yeah, we feel the room, we feel the, the birds and the sound, it takes place in the spring. So like, he's noting all of these different birds, obviously. Um, but I, I think that, that that is just as important as anything that the, the place itself becomes a character in the. Show, and you've referred to it as sort of a, a, a one person play in a way, right?

That's what it feels like to me. And that's, I mean, obviously I'm, I'm, again, it's a subjective, and so I am editing the words together in a way that feels good to me. Um, and so I approach the text as if I am not a playwright, but I what I imagine a playwright would do and essentially with like a, like a cut up, uh, technique, um, but also paying attention to the, the grain of Thomas Burton's voice and, and what sounds are there. And like that, that's just as important too.

So it's texture place, um, the text itself, um, and, um, all the sounds around. Yeah. Hmm. How many hours of tape were there? Do you, do you. Know? That's a good question. I mean, I, uh, I, I, uh, as a, as a way of moving through them, I transcribed the text, the, the tapes, um, that I had. Um, I mean, there are, there are hundreds in the, in the, um, in, in the collection and the archive, but I was really interested in these Hermitage tapes and that those are more

limited. So maybe, um, I would say 15 tapes or so that each are about an hour, so maybe, you know, 15 to 20 hours or so. Um, but I transcribed a good chunk of those and, and again, as a way to, uh, move through the text and edit it, um, cuz it's really hard to remember and search through something that hasn't been transcribed before. So, um, so that was, that was my way through it. A long, tedious process, but also really interesting. I was sort of thinking how easy it would be or easier

to have a computer transcribe the whole thing, you know, and Right. , but that would've kind of removed your part of the process, right? Does, Yeah. Yeah. And, and again, you know, listening for, you know, size or laughter or, um, coughing or, you know, when he shuts the tape off, it's always interesting because he is like finishing a thought and then he is just like, Fine bloom, you know, And you feel,

you feel the tape shutting off. And, and, um, somehow I wanted to like, um, well, it was already captured, but I wanted to emphasize those sorts of things. Um, so yeah, just the text alone wouldn't have done it. And I, I needed all of the other sonic cues for, for good context. Well, two things about the time of transcribing. There was at some point during the, um, reading the chat book, when you talk, we're talking about transcribing it, and I first realized like, Oh,

he transcribe these things. And in a way I was like, Oh, it, my first thought was like, Oh, you're wasting all that great, uh, retreat time transcribing these tapes, . But then I realized like, Oh, wait, this is the, that is the project. Like, that's the piece too. I think, I think my projects are 80% listening, you know, or, or more. And then, um, when I can't stand it anymore, ,

Then I start to, to play with the material. Um, but I really wanna, I want to find ways to, to get that material into my mind so that I'm thinking about it all the time. Or even when I'm, you know, just waking up in the morning or tired at night, those things are, are popping up in my mind and, and moving around and, and I'm paying attention to that. I'm paying attention to what little glimmers and clues or things that might speak speak out to me, you know, as I'm, you know,

going through all of this information I do with the music too. Uh, um, I, for example, um, other scholars had had figured out all of this music that Merton had listened to throughout his life, um, and they generously shared that with me.

And so I went through the process of finding the music that I appreciated, you know, from like early Boogie Woogie pianist and, uh, Mary Lou Williams and, and so forth, Um, and transcribed that, and then thought about, you know, what was it like for Merton to listen to these people, you know, growing up or partially in New York and, and listening to, um, all of these bands play. And then in solitude, he was like listening to Dylan and, and John Coltrane's ascension. So it's like really, um, uh,

a wide variety of music. And so I, my, my process again, just like with the tapes is to transcribe small bits and pieces of the music, um, to think those through and see if there's something that I can be inspired by that. And then, I mean, it could be something as much as a meter or a tempo or, you know, a small phrase or something like that. Um, and then that for me gives the project a kind of, um, logic to it around Merton's interests and, um, love for these musics.

Well, so you, you transcribed the music he was listening to at the time. Did I understand that correctly? Some. Of it, yeah. Not, I mean, little bit. I mean, I'm not doing the whole thing , let's just be honest too. , I'm finding like little bits and pieces that I think, Oh wow, that's, that's an interesting chord. Or, um, there's a small phrase, you know, like that kind of stuff. And then, yeah, using that to spin out. Um, I mean, it's related to, um,

sampling and the long history of musical borrowing mm-hmm. . Um, but it's sort of stepped back a few, a few layers, um, and, and not quite as overt because I'm, again, you know, I'm really thinking about the recordings that being in the, in the front of the forefront, um, but wanting the music to be inspired by the place and the time. So it's like, with earlier projects, you know, I was like working in Appalachian, Ohio around recordings and people that were, you know,

grew up in the 1920s for example. So it's like, Oh, okay, I'm gonna listen to that music and take, take little bits from there and then see if I can't spin it out into something new. Huh. That's really interesting. It's just something that, that I think about in terms of my own creative process,

which is a little bit kind of being reformed . But, um, yeah, that, that idea of, you know, those are tasks that I would typically be like, Oh God, I gotta, you know, I wouldn't really lean into transcribing even a section of a piece of music, partly cuz I'm really slow at doing that, but, um. Me too . But the idea of really letting that be a part of the, or or remembering or noticing that that's part of creating something new is sort of, yeah.

Really examining and being a part of what you're drawing from or what has led you to create this thing. Yeah. Well, it's, it's world building, right? Mm-hmm. , and it's also giving you the space and time to, um, build that world, but also in try to inhabit as much as one can, you know, the subject of your, of your work. And also, I mean, I do think of material, right? Like sound material. It's, it's just more interesting for me.

Or maybe it's a, a fault , you know, it's like, rather than, uh, I don't know, rather than like a scale or, you know, a set of pitches or something like that. I'm, I'm just interested in material and how other people have made, made music and in history. Right. So, and then how do you perform that, that history? Um, of course it's, you know, it's really complicated, you know, and can be problematic along the lines of appropriation and stuff like that.

So it's, you have to do it with a certain kind of, um, respect and, you know, stewardship too, you know, and, um, to try to figure out what the best, best bet is through all of that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That is a, a. Big question. That's all other conversation. Yeah. And it's a, it's one that I'm really interested in, but, um, Yeah. Too, Yeah. Because it's very, especially as, you know, , I guess we're going there,

but we'll do it quickly. , you know, like, especially because of the last like 10 years and especially the last maybe five, three years, um, this has really become a big larger part of our conversation as a culture, as a society, realizing I'm, I wasn't as woke as I thought I was, you know, like the mistakes made along the way. Sure. And like those moments of like,

do I, do I get it yet? Is it a, you know, is it, you know, like there's so many like moments that I question myself as a, as an artist and an educator, all the different ways that I present other people's work or I'm inspired by others, people, other people's work. Um, yeah, it's a big, it's a big question That might just be a comment on what. Well, yeah, I'll, I'll offer this, which is, I mean, I've struggled with this too for a very long time. And, um, um,

certainly the, the ethical problems around sampling in particular. Um, and so I don't have, I don't have answers, um, and it changes all the time, but a few of the things that I do are to develop relationships with the people and the communities that are connected to the archives that I work with. Um, and that, that is a really good process because it informs, um,

what I do. And then I also, um, enter into contracts, um, like willingly, um, with both, you know, if, if it's a formal archive with the archivists and then also with, um, family members or people that might own, uh, the rights to the recordings. Um, and I feel like that sort of, um, relational, um, uh, interaction, uh, really goes a long way in, in, uh, affecting how you use the material.

And so when I think about archives and sampling as not being abstract at all, but really connected to a group of people who are alive mm-hmm. and loved those people on the recordings, for example, Right. Um, uh, it changes how I use the recordings, it changes what, what material I'll use and then how, how I use it. And so I'm very much interested in that being part of my process and then being audible in, in the projects too. So there's my 2 cents too.

. I really appreciate that 2 cents. And it, it really shows up here, you know, in the way that you've used this work. I mean, obviously it's something that you're, you feel personally connected to, um, but there's a lot of care in how you use Thomas Merton's recordings. Um, so I can see how that all sort of connects there. There's a spot, like one thing you said at the beginning of that 2 cents that I think is a really important thing for, for me to remember. And that is,

I don't have all the answers. And I think when we, when we really understand that we don't know how to, you know, we don't know exactly how to move forward respectfully and aware of our own privilege and, you know, all of these different things that, that are things we should have been thinking about for a long time. Um, yeah. Just being able to say, Oh, I don't know. Or, Oh, I got that. Yeah, I, I missed that one. . Um, here's how I'll do it differently next time.

, you know, it makes a huge, a huge difference. Right? Well, when I was a lot younger, um, you know, I really loved the idea of sampling and, you know, my composition teacher in the uk, Michael Finny, like, was all about, you know, notated, um, you know, musical borrowing. And so I, I mean, I come from that, that tradition like going back to Charles Ives or whatever. But, um, you know, I, it just, it didn't just occur to me. I like started to slowly realize the ethical problems with,

you know, just taking whatever you want and using it however you'd like. Um, and, uh, so that, that built up rather slowly. And then when I was in Kentucky, in, in Bere, I, I met, uh, relatives of people that I had been listening to on the tapes, and it just hit me so hard. It was just like, it really changed everything for me. It, it really, again, um,

made me realize that those tapes aren't abstract at all. They can't, you can't just do whatever you would like with them, but you really need to spend the time to build up trust between yourself and, and those, those people connected to those recordings. Mm. Uh, I can't wait to dig into more of your catalog , like, as, as I'm talking about this stuff, I'm like, Oh, there's so much more for me to listen to. Uh.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well, and then just lastly, and then I, I did do a project with the Sun Archives in, in Chicago at Experimental Sound Studio. And again, like the, the way into it was to be, I mean, I was invited to be, you know, alongside other people and it's like those many different voices all interpreting the same archive is really important. And then I also like literally entered a contract with the archivists and with Sunrise Nephew. Right. So it's like,

and they had to approve whatever I sent them. And, and to me that like made complete sense. I mean, it was, you know, biting your nails nerve wracking, but it also, um, I was really an important part of the process. Okay. Yeah. There's my. . I'm actually really happy. I'm happy we're talking about this cause it's, it's a vital topic. Like it's very important. Yeah. It's really, really important.

Yeah. Um, we should, um, start winding down this part of our conversation, but we are gonna listen to another track, um, breath water, Silence, which hasn't been one that I've really like dug deep into, so I'm excited to listen to it again and also to hear what, what you'd like to say about it before we listen.

Um, Sure. I mean, I, uh, well, I mean, you know, these are obviously, again, he's thinking about Sufi mystics again, and he's thinking about a passage which, you know, is a, um, obviously a religious passage around the idea of, um, you know, all of humanity being a, a breath, you know, like a breath of God. And you know, we're, our lives are breathed out and then it's breathed back in. Um, I appreciate the, the metaphor of it and um, uh,

but he's also, you know, there's some rain outside. There's like, it might be thundering later on or rain coming later on. And so he's thinking about the weather as well. Um, and, and he starts to apply breath and um, and water together in my mind where water becomes another metaphor for, for life. Um, and, you know, he just speaks very eloquently about that. Um, one thing I'll say is, is that I went down this summer to Merton's Hermitage to record and,

um, to shoot some film or whatever, but we were performing there too. Um, and , I performed this piece on Merton's front porch and we just did it in one take, but like when we started, the weather was fine. Um, but like six minutes later, like a, a complete thunderstorm had come in and so on the tape you get to watch, you know,

he's merton's talking about a thunderstorm rolling in, and then one does. And I, you know, it just was a reminder for me like, Oh wow, place plays a big part in, in this. And I was glad that we were able to sort of interact with it and, and capture it in a way. And then when I finished, you know, I had to take just a few seconds and then we just ran to get the cameras . Cause we didn't, we didn't want them to get all, you know,

and the recording equipment to get all, all wet. But, um, of course, yeah, it was a pretty remarkable experience. Yeah. Uh, is that film somewhere that it can be seen? I totally have missed it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I, I mean I, we, I just put it out a couple days ago, so it's, it's on FIO and YouTube and I can give you the link and everything. Okay. I'll put, for those who are listening, I'll put a link to that in the show notes for this episode. Uh, alright,

well it's time to say goodbye. And also, uh, thank you so much for, uh, joining me. Uh, brian hardy.com is your website. I didn't write that down, but I think I'm remembering that correctly. That's correct, yeah. Um, and the album is on band camp and all the streaming places basically, right? Yes, it is. Uh, perfect. All right. Well thanks so much for joining me today. Oh, thank you for having me. Sure. This is, uh, breath water silence.

Sunday morning, April 30th. The bell's ringing down in the monastery for lads. It's a dark gray morning. It may rain later. . I wanna record some thoughts from, again, even Rrb on Islam and on the relation of the Lord to creatures and the relation of the Lord to nature. Nature is described by even Rrb as the breathing of God all being is grounded in the divine breath. The prophet says, He who wants to know the divine breath must try to know the world.

For he who knows himself, knows his Lord, we seek our Lord then in the midst of the creatures, which he has breathed out, and which he breathes out around us, and while he breathes us out also. And then he will breathe in and take us all back into himself. And we will realize that all the time we were He more morning sounds the bright morning, the sound of water dripping in the bucket is to be heard beside the rain and the other birds out there.

Uh, for ibi, water is the most appropriate symbol of life. He says, The secret of life is in the act of flowing, peculiar to water. The watery element is for him the most fundamental element. Of course, what he's saying there is simply that he's simply expressing an intuition of dynamism, movement, and becoming in all things, uh, a sense of vitalism and of life in everything Corresponding to his idea of God's mercy.

Breathing into everything course, the breathing would suggest that air is the most subtle element as some of these other medical decisions would've said. In any case, for him, water symbolizes the life that runs through everything. And to be immersed in water as a baptism in life, to be baptized in life, I would say that would be a very good symbol of the hermit life to be totally baptized in the silence and the flow and the reality of life. And thereby to know the full reality of existence.

From his brand new album, Words and Silences. That was Brian Barnetti with Breath, Water, and Silence. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you, Brian, for being on the show today and for sharing your work in the bonus podcast. That'll be up for pod, for I keep saying podcasters instead of patrons. That'll be up for patrons in just a couple of days. Um, that's really it. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this show, tell a friend, um,

but spread the word. I'm really taking a big hiatus from social media right now, which is where I typically promoted the show. And I feel great about that , but I think right now is a great time for you to be telling your friends or people that you know, who you think might like the podcast, um, to listen to it. And as always, please send me an email, mikey pot gmail.com if you listen to the show.

It's really nice to know that people are out there. And, uh, aside from that, stay tuned for some really cool interviews. I should have mentioned this in the beginning of the show. Molly Joyce will be returning to the show in a couple of weeks. And, um, Martina Oke, who is a pu enter prize winning playwright who has a show on Broadway, she'll be on the show next week. Um,

that was a great conversation too. So if you're not already sub, I'm really, I, I took a nap not long ago and then I chugged a bunch of coffee so I could finish this podcast. And I think that I'm getting a little jittery. Um, so subscribe, Tell a friend and I better turn this thing off. Uh, see you next week. Bye-bye.