Welcome to mid Rats with foul from Commander Salamander and the Eagle One from Eagle Speak at sea or shore your home for a discussion of national security issues and all things from Maritimes. And welcome on board everybody to our April Free for All. For those that are joining us Live, most of y'all are regulars. As you know, a great thing about our Free for Alls is we have open topic open phones. So if you're with us Live, you go
to the top of the show page. You'll see the studio line if you want to call and throw your question, or you can go into the chat room at the bottom of the page. And if there's some topics or some subjects that you would want to us to talk about in the maritime and national security realm, that would be a great place to do it. Because we've
got our little list of things we want to chat about. But maybe there's something to be in your bonnet or burn your saddle that you wanted us to chat about, and you put it in there, we'll do our best to get around to it. And I always like to put the invitation out there that if you don't already, because life is busy and you can't always be
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a little bit of a bone to pick with North Carolina today. I usually try to keep our southern harmony in focus, but I got a little bait and switch issue that it's kind of disturbing. But I found I found a little bit of a way to recapture a little bit of my lost honor here by this misrepresentation by the Tobacco state. On Netflix, I was trolling for something to look more interesting than anything else being offered. In Lo and Behold,
there was a limited run series called Florida Man. I was like, okay, I kind of like C list actors or a low budget and making fun stuff. Let's go see what Florida Man is about. This is kind of a murder mister Elda work. So I'm watching it, and I'm sitting there with my wonderful, impatient spouse and we're going, okay, trying to identify these spots that could be over in the Big Bend area, maybe similar between cedar Key and Alma sassa Are. Could that be around south of Daytona,
maybe around Pillarsher Creek. I don't recognize this stuff. Well, they're filming in North Carolina up in the Outer Banks in Wilmington. So congratulations North Carolina. All the bad things about floridamand you can now claim credit for Well, it's a it is a I hope it's a revenue generator. But yeah, Wilmington is a pretty big spot for for cinema and TV shows. K are A number of them were filmed filmed there, none, you know, none of them. I think it's kind of like I think it's kind of
like Atlanta in the South. It's something that it's affordable to go to. There's lots of different venues, there's a friendly government. Um, they're not going to beach upside the head and shoulders with taxes. I will say that because I've described for people for a year, mostly in a culinary context, but culturally, I think it's accurate too that there is a subculture in the
south, the coastal South, the Jimmy Buffet South. However you want to look at it, that kind of goes from Wilmington, North Carolina, down the East coast to Daytona Beach, and you can say it has a sister culture. I think from right north of Tampa, going counterclockwise across the Big Bend to Florida, through Pensacola up to Mobile, which is you know,
the redneck rid of the area. It's it's similar but different, different food, but that that coastal southern so it looks the salt marshes of coastal Wilmington and the outer banks is not dissimilar from that northern part of East Coast before you hit the mangroves of Florida. So I guess it is cheaper than in Florida, and it nrbed a main places uh left on the coast that you can kind of get some of the filming they're doing. So anyway, I've
only end into two episodes. If anybody's looking for I wouldn't say it's marshmallow, but it's not high maintenance to watch. Everybody needs a little bit of fluff. Well, you're considering what we usually talked about here on the show. We don't do the flu fluff topics here. So yeah, I just because it's a free for all and we own the territory, so to speak,
I just thought I would I would bring that up. But um, well you should also mentioned, I'm interrupted, you should also mention that the the USS North Carolina is down in Wilmington, and uh, that's that's a very good, uh, very good ship to tour if you want to see what's the big old battleships for l Yeah, I know Texas is in dry
dock right now getting some work done, thank goodness. But yeah, that the Texas, the North Carolina, the Alabama when you go through mobilele Um, those are those are just some great, some great warships, some great stories. And most people you know, think about the Missouri over in Hawaii and stuff. But if you want to get on an old battlewagon, you don't have to travel that far. You can if you're near Mobile, Houston or Wilmington. And I would I would say that you as as North Carolina
would be. If you had to do a destination, I'd rather Wilmington is just I don't want to upset anybody from Mobile, but um, Wilmington, North Carolina, in that area, it is one of the more pleasant parts of the country to be in. It's not as as crowded or have issues as you have with Houston. Um, it's it's definitely within striking range of norfolking places like that. It's a it's a it's a nice place to go. A couple of friends of mine has vacation houses off from the outer banks
too. It's also a pretty good giveaway. But I'll know, if you want to have to advertise and have more people showing up, No, as long as they don't stay, it's fine where we welcome everybody as long as they go home. Um yeah, yeah, you know. The other the other place it's got some interesting shifts is uh is Mount Pleasant, South Carolina, where Patriot's point is they have an aircraft carrier and uh the USS leafy I think the one that the destroyer, that destroyer escorts that took six kamikaze
hits a Roar two and came home. So for what it's worth, it would not think there you go. Yeah, all right, so let's talking about let's talking about let's let's talk about something meaningful. Well, let's let's just go ahead, go for the top rungs that I speak. Um, I kind of went down a rabbit hole this week that I hope everybody will
will be be patient with me on. But I had a person tapped me on the shoulder this week when Admiral Acquilina was up on the hill give you testimony in front of the House and Senate, and I, you know, I got to generate taxable income, so I was a little busy. I wasn't watching in a real time, And since then I try to grab what I can based upon some of the taps on the shoulder that I got.
And Aquilino he's one of those guys that I guess in a way you've got to you've got to tap your hat to him, and that he's got a little bit of luck, a little bit of hard work, I guess. But he was pack Fleet when the Balhamer shard bird. He was also in the mix there and with the Roosevelt in twenty twenty with the Covid kerfuffle, and he emerged from the both of those events unscathed. Obviously, he was promoted up, but he had two things that he commented on that I kind
of wanted to talk about. One was some questioning that he got from specifically Representative Gallagher about our inventory of weapons, something that we've talked about, you know, for years here, but we've talked about it a few times in the context of the lessons that the Russia Ukrainian War is trying to tap everybody on the shoulder about about what you buy in peace versus what you need at
war if you're going to go more in seventy two hours. And the second issue had to do with a very strange comment that he said in response to a question by the Lusio Pennsylvania representative. I'll get his name right during the Breakwell get my sheet. But I got actually a little fancy here, and I got an audio clip that I wanted to bring up, and then we can talk about the first issue, and i'd ask everybody as they listen.
The video is a little better because you can get a little bit of facial tells from Admiral Aquilino, but you can also hear the audio as well. This is an exchange. Representative Gallagher had brought up some of the war games that they were going to be doing and some of the lessons that they had specifically about inventory and are the depth or lack there of our magazine there a little bit of talk about war gaming, but it's a comment towards the end
that I want everybody to kind of focus. One thing quickly becomes apparent. We go Winchester on critical weapon systems, we run out of long range fires. In particular, I would be curious to get your view on that. What worried you about the stockpiles of long range fires that we have west of the International Dateline, and what do you think is our best way to start replenishing our stockpiles to make sure that you have what you need in theater prior
to the shooting starting. So thanks Connorshman. First, let me just make sure I want to make sure how you know I look at wargames right. Wargaming is a learning objective, So when people talk about hey, who won, who lost, wargaming is not about that. It's about learning and understanding vulnerabilities, strengths and helps you go forward and figure out how to adjust in
what you might need. So when you go into this event, I hope they're looking at it in the same way with regard to the Munician's piece, again, I like to talk in a classified setting over the specific issues. That said, I'm not too worried as it applies to our ability to deter and then deliver effective contingency operations if required. You're not too worried, I
am. I am not worried. What I would like is the acceleration of those things identified in the budget, and then in my twelve and fifty four report, I've made those requirements. You know, also can key in on Representative Gallagher's tone. He's a little bit incredulous, and I think for good reasons that we've discussed here and others have talked about, and there's kind of
a meta issue here besides this specific issue. It's first of all, nobody who's knowledgeable with this issue believes that, and I don't think people think that. Admiral Aquilino believes that, and I think what we're seeing and you know, this is an issue that it's hard when you get at that level. Back at the end of March, Chairman Joint Chief fact General Millie in an interview over a defense one a lot of people wrote about it. At the
time, he wanted everybody to lower the rhetoric on China. I don't know if this is Aquilino taking marching orders, are interpreting that he needs to solt sell China and specifically whether we need to be worried about China. That's part of lowering the rhetoric. There's a problem, and you know, maybe we talk about recruiting and has something to do with that. With the credibility the military, that we don't have much capital left to be going up there and
saying things, it just do not reflect reality. I do not know a serious person who quote is not worried unquote, And we know what we need in Congress is the one that's going to cut the checks. So if we have our senior leaders in uniform for apps going too far and aligning themselves with the political message of the day, that's for the people who wear civilian outfits
to do. You know, Congress again is going to look at people in uniform is being handmaids to the politicians that happened to being in the executive branch. If they want to downplay that, and if you're not saying that you're worried, then why should Congress give us any more money to build Tea lamps like wealth. What are we building one hundred and seventeen next year? That's that's almost one third of a nineteen ninety eight desert fox strike on Iraq.
That's that's keeping a production line open. We can't talk about how we need to be serious if we're not going to talk serious. I found tell me what I'm missing here. But in his tone, I could almost tell that Aqualino he really just doesn't believe it. He just feels it for whatever reason he has to believe it. Yeah, I think his initial response is the key. Though, you know, I'm not too worried. I don't know, you know, I don't know what would you know, make him worry?
But you know, in his position, he can't say, oh, yeah, you know, we've got enough stuff to last an hour and a half. You know what, what does that tell anybody who's who's uh will need to test us? You know you I think he has to be asked in This is part of the problem of being his position, I think is he probably had to be really careful not to say, yeah, we're screwed.
I mean, I would prefer that, you know, I'm sure in private and all the other things he knows, but I don't think that it woves any of these senior officials about to say, uh yeah, we just we're really screwed up in the past and I'm just gonna take us ten years to catch up. You know, we need to be you have to put a more positive spin on it to that to be in his position. I think. So the position is I'm not too worried, and if you give me all the money and the stuff that they gave you on my list,
then I'll be a lot less worried. But I think one thing, I just think, I think that's a challenge. I think, and again, you're not being paranoided. People are trying to get you, and you know. But there his mention of deter I think is important because the Deputy Secretary Defense Hicks. She and others like her have been pushing for years that the best way to address the threat from China is to convince them that we'll defeat
them in seventy two hours. And when you have that construct in that mindset, okay, okay, what can we throw at him and send me two hours? That's what we need to have. The Russians thought they would take Kiev inside of seventy two hours you always have to do. And what he's right about war games, Um, they're they're teaching opportunities and they ask good questions. And one of the things about war games is you challenge assumptions. So, Okay, this assumption that we planned on is now invalid. How
do we respond to that? What's our our branch branch plan if this does not work? So at the seventyo hour mark, really okay, Now, what are you going to do if all you've done has been focused on de train by trying to look how scary you are, which it's contrary to Chinese history that goes back thousands of years. Um. They make the Russians look sensitive about casualties. They're very tough, they can absorb a lot even with
their demographics they have four times of population that we do. Um. And talking what we've learned in Ukraine about the fact that we have no Stinger production line, it's going to take a while to bring it back on board. We're sending as much artillery ammunition other weapons of high mars that we're spending, and people need to be careful about looking at the Taiwan conflict if it comes
to pass in isolation saying it's only going to take place in Taiwan. It is where some people that I respect have kind of been caught in this trap where they will say, well, the Battle of Taiwan, if it gets to the point you're worried about high Mars or something like that, then it's over. Oh no, that's not true. You can't predict it like that. And also you cannot assume that a conflict in Taiwan is going to be
isolated to Taiwan. There are very few occurrences in world history where two major hours got into a scrap over a lesser power and it did not metastasize into other areas. And you know, everybody here can pick whatever other flashpoint on the Chinese border it might leak over to. And that's what we need to be thinking about. So I think that I might say Aqualino is lying.
I'm saying saying, though, that his response requires the validation and the air tightness of a few very very brittle assumptions that, should it fall through, could be very dangerous for our nation, especially if that is used to not purchase what we need to be purchased in order to be ready. Again, it's it's it's I think it's another lost opportunity where we could have advocated for additional high demand, low density hasset out there that we're going to need.
Yeah. Again, I just I think that those questions make good political theater. Uh. And I don't see how he could answer it, Um, you know, as honestly as as you and I might wish that sometimes people would be honest in that position. But you know, he's he's got he's got political and diplomatic responsibilities that I think kind of forces force him into these um odd responses. You know. Yeah, I'm not too worried. We have enough to deter deter what you know, I mean, um, and
how long do you expect deterrence to last? If you know, if if you know, are the Chinese trying to build us an overwhelming force that that that there is no deterrence possible that we can't we know that they're going to be able to accomplish whatever it is they choose. You know, I think
there's somebody. I think it's just a problem for the senior leadership. And we've seen what happens sometimes when our senior leaders, both civilian and military, get a little too candidate sometimes and it causes as many problems, if not more problems than if if they just kind of put the best face they can on the situation they're in and move along while hoping that Congress gives them the money to meet some of the needs that have have been identified in other ways.
And at other times, Yeah, I think you're right. We felt a little example of that where he's trying to he's in a difficult spot because in the background, and again I reserve the right to be wrong here, I think the argument is being overplayed on both sides about we can't give aid to Ukraine without critically undermining any ability to help Taiwan defend themselves. Well as as Lincoln said, one war at a time, there's a war that we're
engaged in. It's a proxy fight. Everybody should be on board with that. Now we are having the Ukrainians minimize the Russian military. They didn't start the fight, but we can help them continue it. And Aquilino was also over at the Senate and Senator Ernst asked him, quote, has our support to Ukraine depleted any munitions needed for Taiwan? Unquote? That was kind of a setup question. He's kind of in a corner, and Adam Aquilino replied,
quote not at this time, unquote. It's been a great follow up question. Okay, at what time does it? If you're looking at what we're sending from High Mars Javelin Stinger's Patriots harpoons, now the ground launched small diameter bomb, which which is a it's a sexy little thing, and of course all the one fifty five. Of course it's making an impact. But I think he's he's worked with his messaging people to go, well, you can't say that, because then they're going to say, so do we need
to stop giving aid to Taiwan? So they're trying to they're trying to put him in a corner to be used for political purposes. So I think I think you have a point that he's kind of in a no win situation, but that doesn't stop people outside like us and people who have larger microphones from perhaps pointing out some of these shortfalls and in the argument it's being made, well, I think a lot of it depends too and whether he's you know,
we talk about a lot of stuff. The war in Ukraine is a is a land war, it is there are you know, Riverine considerations. There is the Black Sea stuff, but it is essentially a land war and the weapons you use for that are different than the weapons I believe if there's an engagement involving Taiwan or uh in China in any of that area out there, those are it's going to be that isn't that isn't wasn't a long line from um in Harm's way. It's a it's a mother loving navy war.
I mean it is that is a navy war. Do we are we seriously contemplating engaging in the land war Asia? And are we going to invade China if they invade Taiwan? I just don't uh, you know, I'm I'm trying to wrap my mind around, uh, why people are upset about equipment that uh is suitable for land war stuff when we really need to be focusing on the fact that's going to be a navy war. It's going to be a Navy and Marine Corps war. Of the Marine Corps have their their distribution
system the way they want to have it. But and you know the other powers out there, the Japanese and the and the UH, Australians and all, you know, they're I don't think they're looking at that. Gosh, we've we've got to be ready to send troops into Shanghai or whatever it's called
down to h to protect what we've got. I mean, we're trying to keep, as I perceive it, we're trying to keep China from doing something really stupid and causing a lot of harm to assist him, because they're they they you know, they've got a mindset that their way is the way, and and they want everybody to conformed to their standard. Well, good gosh, judging by the number of misrepresentations of law and fact they make every day, I'm not sure they would be really happy with the world like that.
But uh, you know, I think it's a navy thing, and I think that that is the focus that Malaquilino is. If I were to guess what he's thinking, and this is pure speculation on my part, is Look, you know, I've got ships. They may not be all the ships I need. They may not be as as somebody in the chat room says, not enough tubes. Lee says that not enough tubes to shoot from.
But he's got what he's got, you know, And and if if we don't strip the forces from the Mediterranean and from the other areas where involve avolved in then uh, and we can do that, you know, we can get more tubes out there, but there is it is a question of time because it is mentioned many times. It's a big ocean, and it takes a long time to get there. And I think somebody else, I mean,
we're talking about the sustainment and stuff. You know, people keep telling me, well, we don't have enough escorts to get the ships, the sustainment forces flowing to to to that region. And and I've argued before, I'll continue to do this. I don't think that the Chinese are going to go out of their turf and try and interdict a bunch of shipping from the west coast the US to Hawaii or from Hawaii, uh sort of New York wam, you know. I mean, there's there's two thousand miles of ocean
in there. But they've got to come a long way to get to that point. And then they've got to uh evade our various systems for detecting them, and then they've got to put up with our marine patrol aircraft systems, the other equipment we have to make their life miserable, I think, and I don't think I have any air power that's going to go out that direction either, So I think the escortship issue kind of we don't need that in the initial phase from the US to Hawaii, and then the question is we'll
how about Hawaii on and that's a little tougher, but there is some point where you can draw a circle in the ocean gain you know, this is this is the air we begin to start to worry about that, and again, uh, you know, we got these longer range MPAs that can be out there for a while at thousand miles P eight I think is that at
four hours is kind of their thing. But the distance between uh, you know, like Wake and Guam and Guam and and Awake in Hawaii, it's enough that you could you could you can run aircraft from both directions to support and escort any uh sustainment shipping. And that's not to say that we have enough tankers and other assets we would need. But I just think we worry too much about sometimes about the the the or two model of the ESCORG and
stuff that we're not in World War two. Now we've got a whole different or whole different mess we need to be planning with, and we need to be thinking about modern equipment. You know, unmanned escort vessels UH, you know high high altitude electric big gliders, remember the gostomer condor or where everything
is. You know, things that can stay up forever. You know, we got all kinds of assets we can throw on the path out there to detect bad guys, to who would interfere with us trying to sustain our forces. The real issues of course, are you know, guamas vulnerable? How far out you have to go? Do you go to wake, do you try and revitalize? Are we going to try and maintain some kind of presence and on the far reaches of the Hawaiian Islands down and down and Johnson A
Toll and all these other places that they're out there. I mean, we've got enough issues to be looking at uh and where we can place pace our versus if we really had to do it. But I don't. I don't think escorting the initial escorting those sustainment ships is a key issue right now. You can almost see a threat gradient is the closer you get to UM and
to come a real estarts changing when you get west of Guam. But it even starts to starts to tick up when you get the Guam and you know you made you made a comment about, you know, sustainment and our ability to uh keep the fight going west of the International Dayline. And I think that was another opportunity that in a different exchange. I don't have the audio for this one I look for. I couldn't find it, uh that I
talked about briefly at the beginning with the representative Deluzio of Pennsylvania. He asked Aquilina, quote, where is our sea lift capacity relative to the PRC, And Aquilino responded, in part, we have a distinct advantage over the PRC in numbers, in capability. To me, that is telling the person that gives you money, you don't need to give me any more money traditional sea
lift. I know of no serious person who believes, especially with the interior lines that China operates under west of Guam, do we have any distinct advantage over the Chinese in a conflict inside the first island chain when it comes to sustainment and sea lift. Maybe if you're looking strictly at gray holes, or maybe you're looking at global sustainment that's fine, But when you're talking about getting close to China, they're merchant fleet there there maritime militia. They've just they
had so much of the waterway they're flooded with their ships. I don't know what point he was making there, but I don't think it was constructive for those that are trying to get additional sea lift and additional auxiliaries to support the fleet west of the International to eight one. I can't. I was trying to think of that that same after I heard that quote, I went, well, how in the world do you come to that conclusion? And I think you hit on part of the entertry. Was it that he sees I
think somewhere that he's got his own. If China's got these short what what'd you call it? The interior lines of communication, he's saying, he's saying the same thing I've got. I've got some kind of short interior line of communication here. If Guam holes, if U Saipan can be used, if mog or Tinian can be used, if if the Australia can be used, you know we're not having to It's not always the the eight thousand mile UH
line. Now, you know, all the all the MSc guys and everybody understands the stuff goes, well, yeah, but we're where those other ships gonna you know that get the stuff to those places going to come from and that that is the question that bothers me and I don't I'm not sure that that is well thought out by our planners sometimes that they don't remember that during the durn World War two, that that part of the Japanese effort was to
if they could seize the Solomons, if they could succeed in that, they could cut off Australia from US pretty pretty well. So, uh, you know, I know other people have studied World War Two and they understand that things how used to be, how tough things used to be. But if we're talking big tankers coming out of out of out of night Aligeria, out of out of Texas, they're going to come around the uh, the the end of Africa and charged through the Indian Ocean and get to get to some
of our allies. I'm really curious as to have what you know, again, not having seen the end, I hope I never do see the op plans for this. I just I know somebody's got to be thinking about this, and I don't understand what exactly what his statement was meant to convey that. Maybe he thinks he's got an interior lines of communication that work for him
to although and I should have said this earlier. Closure of the Red Hill facility in Hawaii, and I don't think we've replaced that facility with with the the tanker out there to take the place of that of that structure. I'm really struggling with how we're going to sustain our forces forward, trying to do it the way that lets less. Some genius has come up with a much
faster and proder approach tonight. And I'm looking at right now. Yeah, the you know, technology has changed and things he advanced, et cetera, and so forth. But uh, yeah, I can see Admiral rick Over laughing in the background. Um, we have a conventionally powered fleet. You've got to keep them fueled, you've got to keep them topped off, and
you've got to get weapons forward. I guess if you don't have any weapons, if you don't have a very deep magazine depth and you have no ability to reload it, see, then I guess you don't need the sustainment ships. To take them west because everybody's got to back to San Diego. A little sarcastic, but hey, we actually have a caller. So, um, Harry code six five one h you're you're live on mid Rats. Do you have a question or were you just listening? And I embarrassed you just
listening for now? Okay, Yeah we have that sometimes, but thanks for calling in anyway. Okay, so we didn't have a question. We just had a listener. But that's okay. See, we do actually check if people call in. I did you know one of my little little pet things that the Navy and We've had some fun conversations over it that I've been kind of watching and you can go there's a couple of places you actually see the
video of it. But the I think the utility and the use of riverine forces that I love to talk about, we're seeing playing under playing out this weekend. I kind of grinned a bit when the announcement came out. For for those not familiar in the and it's lower reaches than near its estuary, the dnepro. It's a big river. It's like the Mississippi River between I don't know, Memphis in New Orleans and it's it's wide, it's big, and it has some pretty big reservoirs up river as well. It's not it's
not a creek by any straight it's not the potonac Um. It's it's a big river. But the Ukrainians have done a quote amphibious operation unquote where you know the old phrase, you do an amphibious operation with the ships you have, not the ships you wish you have. And there's been a little bit of a video posted and what they're doing, and from a distance they look
like seven to ten meter ribs. Some of them actually look like commercial boats loaded with with light infantry, crossing the river from the Ukrainian hell to the Russian side. And basically they're just pulling up the docks, some people's houses and unloading what they can carry. But that it's just a little snapshot of and we've been given them. Some of are left over are discarded river craft
as we decomission that again. But it does go again that if you have the ability to move forces by sea, it complicates your enemies calculus on how they're going to defend. They just can't assume that that moat's going to last and when they're concentrating the forces someplace else, it provides opportunities. I saw a couple of reports that the Russians had to retreat back to a few miles inland, to another smaller river that just looks you know, maybe fifty two
hundred yards wide vice a half mile wide. So that was just really interesting to see how that plays out. But I'm hoping more video will will come up. And again one of those things that I hope smart people are looking at the lessons that the Ukrainian war is reminding us of, because I think that that plays into it as well. You can raise a lot of havoc on your enemy's plans and they can't consider the uh, the maritime approaches, even if their fresh water is to be insecure. Yeah, I think,
um, I think Washington is something about the Delaware River. Christmas Eve. I think I think he kind of something, you know, he kind of
surprised some people. You know, I don't know why we have to keep warning these these these lessons, but there's you know that there's a difference between the forces that do what the Ukrainians are doing by gun across is the Nieper there and and what the Navy Riverine forces were doing like in Vietnam and interact the interdiction of of UH in Vietnam, the interdiction of the viet Vietcong and North Vietnamese bad guys and UH and interact the same thing, trying interdict people
using the waterways for um had purposes as far as our side went. But you know that I look at the was a movie the bridget Ramagan when they're trying to get hold the one bridge, and uh, you know, then there's all these other places where there were loading troops, army guys into army boats and trying to go across these rivers to capture the other side in World War Two. I mean, it's you know, I think it's a it's a different it is. I hate to keep throwing things at the land.
That's a land worth thing, but that is a land worth thing as opposed to you know, the the the Blue Water Navy certainly, and the and the inshore undersea world in the liberals. So uh there, it's cool that they're doing that, and I'm glad that we gave them the assets, if that's what it is that they're using to do that. But I don't right now. I wouldn't see a mission and I understand why the Navy get rid
of some of this stuff despite the fact that it was really cool. Uh you know, what's what's the mission that you foresee in the future for a forest like that? And where would we use it? And that's how you look at yeah, exactly. Well, you know, you look at thee you look at the globe, you look at any type of place that has a major riverine type environment. You know, people said we would never need it again, and we decommissioned. I think our last reserved rivery unit was
in California in the late nineties. And when we invaded into the Iraq in two thousand and three, you had the Tigers and Euphrates River that we had no ability to securely project power on until our army guys creatively acquisitioned a few fishing boats, and we're able to help secure dams, help interdict um some of our opponents who are using the waterways as are always used as a way to transport things, you can. I've heard people make the argument that there's
there's no job for these small ships in a conflict with China. It depends on where that conflict goes, you just don't know. There are too many places in the world that have an nearshore environment that either we are our partner nations will need that capability turnkey and ready to go, otherwise we'll have to recreate it again. I think we're very bad where the next conflict will go.
So all we can do is look at a map and when you have major river systems in places, we will probably be in a conflict and we either going to have that capability or we'll just have to vision on the fly. And based upon our experience in Iraq, we developed a good group of a nice bit of kit with a lot of flexibility. And now we're getting rid of it again. And I can see the argument. I can actually
make the argument if you want to pay me to do it. But I don't think at the end of the day, getting rid of that capability is going to be worth the price of needing it again. I think in the last two hundred years are major conflicts. What do we not need that? In? Maybe World War One we didn't need it, in we definitely needed it. World War two we use it in Korea to a lesser extent. Definitely in Vietnam definitely in Iraq, had no use support in Afghanistan for obvious
reasons. But Spanish American War absolutely, US Civil War, Oh my gosh, huge, huge play. So it's I just think it's it's an interesting discuss some point. And I know that the Ukrainians can't get enough of their of their small ships because they've they've gotten religion on it as well from a couple of things that I've read. Yeah, you know, if I look at the river systems in Europe, I don't know why I was trying to
look at this up the other day. We're trying to find it. Well, gosh do they do who's got the river patrol boat stuff that they would need to go down the Danube and all these other fairly large river systems. And I donn't think anybody in Europe maintains a river ene force of the kind we had because I guess, you know, well, we're all we're all
the EU now, we don't need this sort of thing. But you know, uh I would I wouldn't be looking at that, and I don't I don't know if they have, you know, police patrol boats they think are adequate or what. But yeah, I think that maybe our European allies will wake up a little bit to things that could be an issue for and that having some kind of river forest might be to their benefit. And and you
know, I'm not I'm not against the obviously against the small ships. I think we need tons of them, and I think especially around the Philippines and they and the other archipelagoes out in the in the near the South Finessee or
the or the West Philippine Sea as I like to call it. Um You know, those are those are really valuable assets, just like that the PT boats UH in World War two were an asset, and that in those very waters and down on the Solomons and and other places where they could interdict Japanese barges and all kinds of stuff and do a lot of damage at reasonably low cost, for low low risk to a crew of what they have five or six guys on those things. Anyway, Well, I've got great news for
you, um as you might be aware. I troll the Austrian and German military YouTube channels. They put out some good kit, some good stuff, and of course my Germans not what it used to be. So I do the auto translate into English, which does a really good job in translating. And about a year ago, I think it was they Austrians put out a
little video. They do have riverine assault craft and they were showing one of their exercises and they use it kind of like what the Ukrainians are doing a lot of and what was done a lot in Vietnam, where you have special operations forces, you need to insert somewhere or you need to extract somebody come up river, makes a big noise, breaks things, inserts or takes people and then returns back across the water with you know, just lightly armored but
heavily armed assault those crafts. So I know at least the Austrians on the Danube had that capability. They actually used to have they called it a navy, but they decommissioned it and the army took over the responsibilities. But I think a lot of it just has to do the fact that they're all in the EU. Um, you know, maybe the Serbians still have something significant, but there's a rudiment free capability there. Yeah, that's good to hear. I mean I was. I always have fun when I go to Austria
because I trained. What's the Austrian navy. When when did they last have a navy? I guess when they hit you know, so I didn't find any riverine patrol boats in the Austrian navy. But obviously I wasn't reading and my germanist non existent, so I wasn't reading about them. What's their army army was up to? So well, if you talked to a northern German, Austrian isn't real German anyway, so I don't know that it would help you. Here. Here's here's something else that I wanted to talk about today
simply because I found the numbers interesting and a bit shocking. Is the recruitment numbers came in, And I'll just go ahead and and put it out there. The Marines, as the Marines do, they actually got one hundred percent of the recruiting goal. The Air Force got eighty seven percent of their recruiting goal. I guess they include Space force with that too. Who knows. The Army sixty nine percent, and the Usnighty only got sixty percent of their
recruiting goal. And you know, you would think and actually wouldn't think it's true that all the barriers the services space bringing people in ie you have a body of seventeen to twenty two year olds. You're going to bring in his year enlist group plus a few people that are older. You all have. That challenge is overweight, drug use, criminal record, desire to serve.
That affects everybody equally. So when you have such a disparity from sixty percent to one hundred percent and say, well, all the Marines are a special true, and they're smaller, true, but not in the European sense. Okay, so you know, take out, take out the Marines. Air Force is pretty big and the army's pretty big, and they're doing significantly better
than the Navy. So I read a couple of replies from Navy Recruiting Command and it was just boilerplate, pao production squid ink, no pun intended, doesn't really say anything. But I would really be interested to see behind the closed door, what is causing or what are the top three to five causal factors that makes the Air Force get eighty seven percent and the Navy gets sixty percent. It's just a huge disparity. Well, I think a lot of
it is with media coverage. I mean, how many positive stories have we seen about the Navy in the last years. I mean, I mean the Marines. The Marines are always gonna they're gonna appeal to a certain group of people because of the way they and they're advertising is just terrific. But the
Navy, uh, I'm always reminded of it. You know, joined the Navy and anyway, it's it's a long time ago, but yeah, I mean, you know, we've got collisions, we've got nearer collisions, we've got chips on fire, we've got uh, you know, extended deployments, we've got uh, you know, I mean the number of problems is lengthy. The number of positive spin stories is pretty small. So uh, either our PAOs need to step up and you know, reveal the good the good
stuff. And I'm not talking about the stuff that appeals to the politicians, but the stuff that would appeal to your average eighteen year old kid who's thinking about joining that service, you know the it. And it used to be, you know, we would recruit people because well, we'll give you a career. You know, you come in, we'll train you to do uh, this kind of work. I don't think we even advertise that anymore.
Maybe we do, but I don't, you know, I'm not I'm not sure I see it anywhere so that one of the most positive movie recently is about the Navy is is uh popgun Maverick? Once again, you know, we're dealing with a small, very elite group of fighter pilots, and we don't mention enough about what the cruise in a carrier. Uh see. I see air ops stuff going on, but you know, not enough credits given to those those people and what they were doing in support of what what Maverick
and his kids were trying to do. And I think you mentioned something that I think has a lot to do with it is a lot of what you see our navy doing, who they're trying to talk to seems to be very very narrow. It's a narrow net on a narrow group of issues. You only have a limited pot of if you're a leader, personal capital or if you're a service institutional capital that you can draw on. So you have to invest and spend that and you know, very very careful ways, and obviously
we're not doing that well. And our various ways of communicating to young men and women who might be interested in serving, if we would would be closer to the Air Force as opposed to being in the background, and you're right, image matters. We've talked about it for years. Other people have as well. You know, nobody is going to say I want to I want to serve on that ship when it's rusting all over the place. Or you have leaders who say, well, you know, nine months deployments are the
new just because and you have retentions. Evidently the Navy's retention is actually a little bit better, but that's not reflected. And those who are retaining convincing other people to come join us, you know, the old hometown recruiters type of folks where you go back and get and tell the Navy's story. So we're not talking to the right audience. We're not putting out the right messages to bring people in, and where what we are doing is not going in
the right direction towards a broad enough audience to bring it in. That has got to be a very direct conversation we have with ourselves, both our messaging, our conduct, in our leadership. But I haven't I haven't seen that, at least in public. Hopefully it's going to be something in private that's
being done. I think that is probably the next two The Naval Operations who his responsibility is to train man and equip that maybe he can flop that and focus on personnel and recruiting and doing it in a different way, because I sixty percent when the US Air Force getting eighty seven percent inner service rivalries aside. To me, that's a red letter underlying emphasis that what we're doing now we need to stop training time out, recruiting time out, and we need
to do something that works well. If two as an air Force sprout, I will tell you one of the attractions of the air Force is they don't go anywhere. Well, you know they have. We did travel a lot, and we moved a lot, but you know the we did not you have a fixed base. For the most part. Air Force people are not
gone for six to nine months. I mean they do t wise and all that stuff, but either generally not gone for eleven month deployments as or ten month deployments or nine month deployments, and they've uh it always seems to me that they were a little more I think a little more technical, uh in their jobs than than some of the positions we have in the Navy or had
in the Navy. So uh that which isn't true. We have you know, we have we have the eighteen year old kid fixing jet airplanes just like the Air Force as eighteen year old kids fixing jets as just that he's doing amount of carrier and under conditions that are different. I always thought, like an Hunt for Red October, that the real hero of that movie is Jonesy, the sonar man who detects this this weird noise. He didn't know what it was, right, I mean that where that starts. So let's play
up the jones He's of of the of the of the fleet. You know that Again, the stories out there from these these young kids, these flight deck cruise, the people on the submarines, you know, we those those are stories that need to get told. And and uh, you know, we keep focusing on on the the airplane drivers and the occasionally, well we'll have some movie about swos fighting monsters from outer space on a battleship that hasn't
seen hasn't seen action in a hundred years. But you know, other than that, we're doing great as far as the recruiting stuff, you know, is jazz up our message. Not everybody in the nag of Seal. That's that's fine. We don't need everybody to be a seal, but there are those people who are doing really important work that we need to just kind of and then and there must be some some way to do that that that wouldn't come across as uh uh hooky. But you know, I always love the
Marines because the Marines stand. We know, we get to go do all this this stuff. Who gets them there? Who? Who? Who takes the Marines from point A to point B so they can do those those things that you know, so they can run to the sound of the guns or whatever their motto is. So uh you know, that's the Navy mission and that's and we've managed to deliver them successfully for a few hundred years now. So I need to tell that story. And we and we have a great
story. You know, everybody could sit around and tell ce stories all day. And we're not telling ce stories. We're talking about other things. We're not we're not selling ourselves very well, um, either in Congress or in the public space. So I think it's time to break that down to parade rest and rebuild it because it's simply not working. And there's some accountability there too, which I think, Um, you know, we're gonna have a
new CNO in the next year, Yeah, I don't. I don't think the present CNO is going to do much to change, being that this has kind of been on his watch. But there'll be an opportunity for the new CNO, whoever that is. Hopefully that would be one of their folks. Because if you don't have when you don't have a bit a big enough pool coming in, you take what you can, which means you're taking in a lower quality person. That's just the way the math works. If you have
no selectibility, then you're not very selective. So we need to have a more a larger pool of people who are interested to come in the Navy, so we can select the people that we want to and we don't have to start changing standards simply to be able to get people in there. And we'll have to make other adjustments to to get that number. I just hope the response isn't Okay, everybody, you're you're now not going to be manned at
eighty percent. You're going to be manned it's sixty. I don't think that's the answer. We've got to bring the people in to do the job. Otherwise we know how that works out. In the end, one last stor on accountability, which I wanted to bring to the listeners. We talked about a little bit in the pre show. I caught bits and pieces which you know, Russian podom. I remember back in the Cold War days, the Soviet Pacific Fleet was kind of the you had the red banner, Northern Fleet
always got all the good stuff. Then the Pacific Fleet, and then the Baltics Fleet came up third, and maybe the Black Sea was fourth. I don't know. But the Pacific Fleet commander, let's see if I can get his name right here, Admiral Sergei Avancas. He's been in the job since twenty twelve. Well, they had a couple of the media reports that they had a snap exercise. Nothing's snap in Russia, but maybe they did.
But they had the next use here a few weeks ago. Well, when it was done, they relieved the commander who'd been in the job for the last eleven years. I think they're they're sending him off to the Russian equivalent from what I read of the junior ROTC, and they're going to place them with the Baltic Sea commander who's only been in the job for a couple of
years. So it's either having learned their lessons of not holding their their senior officers accountable for readiness, and Ukraine is helping the Russians where you think how they hold their senior leaders accountable in other places? Are there some palace entry going on? I don't think it's palace entry because this guy was sent off to the Pacific Fleet in twenty twelve. There's no power base out there on the other side of Asia. I just thought that was an interesting story that
kind of bookends a fleet commander who has less instellar performance. Oh it wasn't our navy, but it was a navy. Yeah, you know, I want if you threw a readiness exercise and and nobody showed up ready, I mean, it's the the story. We have the same story when they did the readiness stuff on our on our uh ready reserve lead or whatever it was. That that what feul You know, I don't know if we held anybody account we fire anybody over that. I mean, you know we did.
I think what ten percent of our ships were capable of getting to undersea? I can't remember the exact figures. Sound mccargniano knows, but you know, Uh, where is the accountability from for the leaders who are who are you know, for finding things aren't ready and all that? Whose heads are being being sent to the junior ROTC billets in kiakak Iowa. I don't know,
but that's how you that's how you get. People started World War Two, both army and UH and maybe went through a lot of commanders who knew were probably really good at their jobs in peacetime, but didn't exactly hack it during the during wartime. And I hate to think we're gonna have to go through that again down the road, but we'll see maybe how many programs when you're sorry, Yeah, we probably will. I think you're right, he's just
gonna it's gonna take something like that. I have read a couple of articles in the last few months we were talking about how you know the Russians as they do they are a learning institution and maybe this is a maybe I'm giving them too much credit, that maybe this is a manifestation of a new attitude they have towards UH, you know, quit quick gun decking your your readiness reports. We're going to do surprise inspections UH like um and adimiral I once
work for. He took over a command from a guy who used to blow towards people who kaz rep and his attitude was I want you to kaz rep. And it took them a long time to change the attitude of people. It's like, why is it that kaz Repp. Well, we didn't notice that kaz rep it. So again, it's all about attitude and leadership and things of that manner. As it always says in this line of business. Um, well, hey, here's an hour. We always joke that we
have no problem filling up an hour. That's true, and because we can pontificate with the best of him. And if everybody is sticking with us to this end, I'll let you know. Next week we're actually going to get We'll help you get your JPNE signed off. We're going to go joint next week. We're actually bringing on board definitely a US Army Lieutenant Colonel Matt Errol and may become some of his co authors. I think a Marine Corps officer
maybe joining us as well. He recently wrote an article you can find over at I think Modern War Institute is where you can find it. Graveyard of the command Posts, which I think what he talks about in this article directly translates to the maritime and the air domain. Really everything it has to do with one of the lessons that they are taking out of the Russia Ukrainian War, and that is and anybody who has served in our wars in the last
twenty years know what I'm talking about. Our four deployed command posts have gotten huge, and they leak electrons all over the place, and we've gotten a little complacent about how dangerous that can be, and not just to our generals and our admirals, but for the ability to command forces in the field. So they've looked at the challenge, look at some of the things that we're
doing, some of the lessons, half a few things. So we're gonna have them on next week to talk about that if you all wanted to read up ahead of time. Also, if you're still with us, that tells me that you're you're a fan of mid rat and you like hearing us talk. If you haven't already, please go over to iTunes or wherever you get your your podcasts and give us a five star review, put a couple of
nice comments on there. Don't give us a four star because you're modest reason why we want to do that, not because we have tender egos, which we might, but because when you give it a five star review and you say a couple of things that you like about the show it in their search
engine, it ups us in the national security arena. And if you like mid Rats, you would want other people to find us as well, and when they're searching for things involving the Navy or the military, we're more likely to pop up above the fold, and then they can come enjoy mid Rats like you do. So that's kind of my altar call for for the day. You got anything else for us there? Ego one, No, just thank everybody for being here today. We'll meet them down the road perfect and
we'll see everybody next week. And until then, I hope everybody has a great Navy day. Cheers like my lonely wants to marry me and long believe the brand that we can't believe for your being to blame my love faily wove me silly faulting your the dame. It's a long way to differ, It's a long way to go, It's a long way to differently. The greenest gn I know, don't by be God healing. Well, let's talk. Swell. It's a long long way to DIEP my lam it, but my heart b