¶ Intro / Opening
Willing wave.
Why from the Lord.
It's Sunday Night, NBC's Saturday Night.
Starring George Carlin.
With Genesee and that Billy Kriston.
Who I found my Albert Brooks, Jim Henson's Puppets good not already Prime Prime Player. I'm comedian Ballery Bronfield and Moldy.
Ladies and gen.
Colen.
Wow, it's great to be hosting midnight Viewing here in New York City. I'm father alone. Oh, I guess we're gonna take some questions from the audience. Yes, so you sir, Good evening. That's right, Welcome to Midnight Viewing. Special crossover episode with the Culture Cast The Evening. Oh yeah, Christatio is the host of that show, and he's here to talk Saturday Night Live with us here. How are you doing, Chris?
You could just refer to me as Satan if you'd.
Like Satan in the Dana Carvey sense, or in the John Loves.
In the Michael O'donniere's.
The true devil, the best, the true.
Devil, the best kind of devil, the true, the truest of true devils. I believe, at least in this movie is approximation.
That's right tonight, we're talking about Saturday Night. It's the new feature film. Hey, by the way, today is October
¶ Personal Reflections on SNL
the eleventh. This is the forty ninth anniversary of the premiere of Saturday Night Alive. That we're talking about Saturday Night, and we're talking about the film Saturday Night, directed by Jason Rightman, written by Jason Rightman and Gil Keenan, starring a whole bunch of actors.
Statements have been made. It's an ensemble cast, folks, Jesus.
Ain't it a rather huge ensemble cast headed by young Steven Spielberg as Lauren Michaels. This is a chronicle of the ninety minutes leading up to the very first broadcast of Saturday Night Live on October the eleventh, nineteen seventy five. Okay, let's see.
If we get through one of these sketches.
Sketches, let me come right. Okay, we go again.
At My name is Lord Michaels. I'm the producer and creator of Saturday Night. We're excited because there's never been a television show like this.
Okay, but what kind of show is it?
Warren?
Do you even know what the show is?
Did anyone ask Edison what a light bulb was before you harness electricity?
Who are you in the metaphor? Yubby Chase killed the redner Dad?
I how the fuck do you pronounce this?
Really?
These can't be the right size.
Yeah, you're right, they should be a little bit smaller.
Taxn rehearsal and no weekend up days.
Good telem me. How long have you been standing there? Long enough?
And I want you to fail? They're betting on it.
That's logical, Vic, That's why the pang is all to be here. NBC makes more money playing ruins of the Tonight Show. I mean, we're ninety minutes of live television. I grow was twenty year olds who've never made anything.
Okay, so this is this is this is a bit.
I don't get half the ship that they do.
You haven't locked the script.
Your actors I'm missing.
Have you seen John Belushi?
Your crew is an open rebellion? Is christ your kids signed for ready for prime Time? Never went down to the eight floor? Now what is this?
I'm pretty exciting.
We need to let the audience say, oh, you don't.
Opening.
I'm not gonna be able to protect you. You just have to make it. Dair, Why.
The writers tied a belt around Big Bird's neck and hung him from my dressing room door.
Hey you heard about it, big bird, So sorry, not erotic asphyxiation.
Who knew?
Now? That is the conceit of the movie. It is. It is shot in real time. It is starts from ten PM and ends at eleven thirty with the first sketch of center and live going live. Okay, So that is the structure for their film. The conceit. The idea here is that we are going to get how frenetic and how frenzied and how crazy it is putting together a live broadcast on network Televisionright, We're suppose we're meant to feel what it's like from these characters' point of view.
So what he's done is going to take the ninety minutes and use this as a historical framing device. This is what it was like beforehand. But it's a movie. So we're going to take facts and events and characters are going to combine. Then we're going to bring them in from earlier than they actually occurred, or we're going to pull them in from previous weeks and compacted into this one sort of bonkers evening. I full disclosure. Am a Saturday Night fucking fanatic, have been. I've seen every
episode of Saturday Night Live. I've read everything about Sunday Night Live. I've seen episodes multiple times, seasons multiple times. I have my favorite cast, but I have multiple favorite casts, and this particular period of Saturday Live is the one that I was most fascinated with my entire life. So I'm coming at it from an expert point of view. So I knew the movie was never going to satisfy
me just in its conception, but I am correct. But there was plenty two that I did enjoy about the movie. But I'm curious to someone who is a lot younger than me, who is not as obsessive with me as me, who's probably you've watched plenty of Sunday Night Live. I'm assuming Chris.
Hold on a second, Hold on a second, I am
¶ Critique of the Movie's Historical Accuracy
as obsessive as you are.
Is not.
I'm not obsessive about Saturday Night Live. I point my in other directions. As it were, It's funny. I actually had to think about it, and I didn't have to think too hard because as someone who likes SNL a fair amount and who grew up with the DVDs and vhs. Is of the best of Dana Carvey, best of Adam Sandler, best of best of Christopher Walking, Jesus Christ that he was not a star of SNL, he was a guest
host and he got his own best of DVD. That's again, these are the things I grew up with, and I again, we're part of the things that were formative for me. So I like SNL a fair amount. I've never gone and read the Oral History books or either of the books, and I don't know why, because I have Live from New York on my bookshelf and I've had it for a while, at least two or three years, and I went through a spate of time where I literally read
two hundred books in the span of two years. And I don't know why I didn't read that one, because I read play of other things, including the Oral History of Star Trek, the Oral History of the Sopranos, the Oral History of Star Trek's two fucking books on top of everything else, Like I could have spared one.
Even more given the number of Star Treks that there are. Well, yeah, original series.
I I the first book is TOS and the second book is TNG.
Okay, then they can.
Yeah, and it's written by the guys who did the oral history of the Sopranos as well, Sepinwall and I forget the other guy's name, but our dear friend Mike White has had Alan Seppenwall, I believe on his show a couple of times, or at least the maybe if it's not him, it's the other guys. Anyways, I digress. I know enough about SNL. I wouldn't say, you know, I'm a neophyte like you, but I'm definitely someone who
appreciates the history behind it. This time and a Place obviously has a very special place in my heart as someone who if you've never listened to a thing I've done before, let me clue you in. Fletch is probably one of my favorite movies, and most things Chevy Chase has done are things that I can at least tolerate because of his involvement.
You do itally this podcast.
I would say, I literally co host a goddamn Chevy Chase podcast. And that's not for any particular reason other than the fact that again you could. It's not you have to really hold my feet to the fire to watch a Chevy Chase movie. He's a specific kind of comedian that a specific kind of person resonates with, and that's not a small group of people. This movie cuts to the core of that a little bit. But I also think this movie misses the fucking point in a
lot of ways. And it's fine, we'll get to what we get to it. I again, I'm not I'm I think I'm not the audience for this movie anymore than you are. I know more about this than the movie thinks I know about this, if that makes sense. Like you said, it's recontextualizing things, doing things that aren't happening in that order, and other things. And also I don't know, they're just there's a lot of stuff going on in
this movie. That's It's a Jason Rightman movie at the end of the day, and that's that's a big thing about this movie in particular. So I'm curious, as someone who is not the die hard, hardcore fan, what did you think of this movie to now turn that turn that oil? What is it? I forget what she says to him and Hannah in the fucking Silence of Lambs, but turn it on yourself. Now, tell me about Saturday Night twenty twenty four of the film.
It should be called Friday Night because the majority of the events chronicled in the film. Okay, I should just say that I'm now attacking the movie specifically on facts as they occur, right objectively.
Okay, yeah, I get it.
Okay, Friday Night there was a big dress rehearsal. It was a complete and utter disaster. Like the show ran three hours. They did a long breakdown afterwards. Lauren Michaels gave notes to everybody, which they immediately abolished afterwards because it was like such a punishing ordeal to sit there and listen to him for an hour talk specifically to
everyone what they did wrong. It was by then they had already put in the new soundboard because they knew full they were having rock acts on and that one mic wasn't going to suffice. Milton Berle did not show up anywhere near the studio eight h He would eventually host Saturday Night Live. A lot of the interactions with Milton Burle would actually occur just months later. Okay, we'll get back to milty.
JK. Simmons was in Thank You for Smoking? Can I point that out? Yeah? The Jason rightman players are here.
Folks, They sure are. And I do know that by six am on that Saturday that the bricks were laid. I know that twelve stage hands were very fucking furious because they had to cut all those bricks and lay them out for the set. Obviously none of the union guys were going to help them. That's true, but it's again, the movie is about Friday Night, not Saturday Night. Most of the problems that are being discussed on Saturday Night were not problems by then. Here's what actually happened in
the movie. That actually happened on the day of John Belushi signed his contract right before they went on there. I think that's it.
But where was Jim Henson and all of us? Where was Jim Henson and all of this? Father Malone? That's the question that everyone's asking in Saturday Night twenty twenty four.
Did you think the.
Guy who plays Andy Kaufman is also Jim Henson? Yes, I know, I'm not. I'm being Facetiousky itself is the gang good job moving.
That is a good gang, and it's Nicholas Braun, and I think he does a good job with both. I think I think it is a pretty good Andy Kaufman, except he's seven feet tall. So I kept it kept I kept going, who is this giant playing Andy Kauffman? Every time I saw him, every time he was close up, I was fine, But standing next to anybody else, that was why have him be that tall? Just have him stand anyway? What did you think of their tank on
Jim Henson? I'm not saying the performance. The performance was fine. It was a bit of a caricature. It was a bit of a impression.
What did I think of the of the characterization the magical white Man of the movie? Is that what you're asking is that? What are you asking me of? Why is Jim Henson the magical white Man of the movie. It's so fucking bizarre. Can I say it's just fucking bizarre? Please? If they make a Jim Henson movie, which I believe they are, can we not have this shit be the Jim Henson character, because it's fucking strange that he's this
movie's like shaman character. Not but he's just a stoner, but not a stoner, you know what.
I would like it if he was the shaman character and he was like spreading good vibes in here, but he's more of a sood.
I didn't mean a shaman like that.
He's a gentle subject of ridicule, I think, and I think they want to be more vicious, honestly, and I bet and I bet at the time they were more vicious. Can you imagine the actual things Michael o'donnahu was saying about the Muppets?
Oh man, isn't that the best part of the.
Movie, Michael o'donah here. Yeah, yeah, let's just talk Michael o'donia. This is one of those things where having a working knowledge of everything involved is a benefit, because as soon as they cut to that guy, I'm like, oh, hey, here's Michael o'donnia Everyone here is. Everyone resembles who they're playing enough that that really works. The cast in general really works in this movie. But that guy in particular.
Tommy Dewey from Casual.
I've never seen him. If I hadn't no where he's from. This is the second interpretation of Michael o'donna here I've now seen. There was a movie a couple of years ago as Netflix film a Feudal in Stupid Gesture, where Thomas Lennon played Michael O'donahue and he did a great Michael O'DONNAU, but everyone was a little bit amped up in their performances there. I think this is more like who that guy actually was.
I think you love him though I do.
Actually no, I do as well.
He's like comedy Dan O'Bannon.
He really is what.
A thorny motherfucker.
I bet he was a nightmare to be around.
But hey, we talked about it last year on my show Because of You. We talked about mister Mike's Mondo video, which is pretty fucking I believe the term Prickley was used plenty of times in relation to that, and I would say this movie nails what I perceived to be when doing the research then about the man that he was and the things that he was writing. That is
the person that he was to the end. Look at his Wikipedia pictures him holding a or I guess his IMDb pictures him holding a fucking chef's knife, like the when he says to the woman in this movie, you can just call me Satan and say, yeah, I resonate with this guy more than I resonate with anybody else in the movie.
For the most part, the rest of the cast, they either resemble the person so fucking much that there's no question that they don't need to have a performance or they get there, they get the characterization of them. They they're some sort of mannerism or vocal pattern. Like the guy doing dan akright doesn't look a thing like dan aykright.
But if you signed Dylan O'Brien does not look like dan Akroight at all.
It's not a mustache on somebody to give him a shaggy en a haircut back then and you get him speaking the way this guy is speaking, then that's dan akright.
You know what he looks like. He looks like dan akrod through the AI lens of sexy. What if dan Akrid was like, hey, I'm not saying dan Akward is not a good looking guy, but if dan Ackroyd were like the episode of The Simpsons where Moe gets his face smashed and he becomes like sexy Mo, it's like that sexy dan akright.
It's the biopic version of dan akright.
Yeah, everybody's sexy in this movie. But I'll tell you, man, look Lemon name Morris as Garrett Morris. Are you just Garrett Morris?
It's really it's yeah, it's.
I literally, I'm like, are you just Garrett Morris, Like, what the actual flying fuck?
It's a bit eerie. And Matt Wood and certain shots as John Belushia, I'm just like, that's John beluci In.
Then yeah, Like some of those profile shots are just like, yep, there he is. That's yep, yep. Can I say, though, Gabriel LaBelle, are you making a are you now making a cottage industry of just playing like the names of show business? Even Spielberg, Yeah, okay, really good.
Lauren Michaels, though, doesn't didn't play into the fucking impressions that we've been getting of lovable doctor evil Lorne Michaels.
Okay, so that's the thing. The one character in the movie I wasn't really clear on the characterization was the Lorne Michaels character because the movie doesn't It doesn't that the movie doesn't take a stand on it. It's just
¶ Saturday Night
the movie paints him very romantically.
Oh it's which.
I get, and at the end of the movie gets me where him and what he's having it out with Willem Dafoe. That got me straight up, like it got me in my being as a creative and I think anybody watching the movie would probably feel the same way. But that's the fucking point because the movie's manipoly manipulating you pretty hard at that point. But I think it works, and I think it's because of his performance. But it's very romantic, like very fucking rose tinted glasses. I've got to assume.
His No, his performance I think is spot on, actually.
But I'm talking more to it the movies portrayal of him, not his portrayal, but like the movie's character, I guess, not even characterization. The way the movie has him playthings out is very romantic. His portrayal, I'm assuming, is very spot on, just everybody else's. Is Nobody sticks out in this movie as that's not a good even JK. Simmons, who like you said, there's no reason Milton Burrow's in this even he's like not doing a bad version of that.
It's decent enough, doesn't stick out, and it's the one thing that might have stuck out, like a thirteen stick.
Now he's doing a good Milton Burrow. That's all fine. Everyone's doing a good job. And the Milton Berle character is there because it eventually would happen. But it's there to hammer home one of the themes of this movie, which is the old Guard not only not understanding what these kids are up to, but actively trying to suppress them. You mentioned the Willing Defaux character. He's playing Dave Tebbett, who was a NBC executive. One of the subplots of
the movie. We'll deal with the cast as they come up, but one of the subplots in the movie is that the affiliates are there, and you have to win over the affiliates if you want to get your show into every market. We have these we have literally a room full of fifty white men smoking old drink and martinz eating prime ribs, like this cartoon mob that just like wanders around, like to show up and put the pressure on.
And of course this is something that did not occur. Yes, you have to go meet the affiliates and you have to do a meet and greet and all that kind of thing, and it did happen. It happened weeks before. This movie is about the weeks leading up to Saturday Night Live. And that's fine. Again, they're compressing it all, but like that some plot, in particular the having to convince the suits what are the suits doing there at ten pm on a Saturday night, those guys would be out getting laid.
Does anyone have a camera?
Cooper hoff Philip Seymour Hoffman's son as Dick Eversoll, who does a good job that Dick Eversol got kicked around a lot, I think by the SNL folk because he was the suit, but he was their suit, and he was dealing with the actual suits, and he kept the show on the air when it very well could have died. And I thought Cooper Hoffin did a really good job in that part.
That was the other thing I wanted to mention here speaking of Dick Eversoll, Dick Eversol is also intimately involved in another person's life that has now become under the microscope, at least, and not in a positive way the way Lorn Michael's life has been. Dick Eversol and Vince McMahon a very close good friends, and Dick Eversoll was instrumental in WrestleMania becoming thing in a lot of ways. And Dick Ebersol and Vince McMahon launched the XFL in the
nineties together. So that's a thing. And I'm actually in a lot of ways. This movie reminds me of what you would do if you were telling the ninety minutes before WrestleMania story, where you have Cindy Lauper show up and Liberachi show up and fucking mister t Schope. Okay, And I think, here, can me speak broadly about this? And then and I get again, I think all of the things we've had an issue with, just speak broadly
about this for a moment. I think the thousand yard view problem of this movie is it is the most goddamn generic and obvious way to tell this story, and it feels so fucking lazy that I can't believe Jason Wrightman and Gil Keenan wrote it, because they're both better
writers than this. And I say that with absolute love in my heart for the things that both of them have worked on, because Thank You for Smoking is a movie that I hold very near and dear to my heart for a lot of reasons, because I think it's the best thing Aaron Eckhart has ever done, and I think it's a movie that I think has aged rather well, especially given the way things are now, even though when
the movie was made things are the same. But I'm surprised that the little that like, the little that they inject into this movie that really works, feels not enough because it works so well that they it feels like they just didn't do it enough. They needed three or four more passes on this to amp it up. Because it's just two broad strokes. It's not enough. It's just not enough. This is almost it's almost like a condensed mini series. This should have been a thing on HBO.
And these things cost about the same either way, So why would you do it as a movie. Why wouldn't you just do it as a mini series?
The problem with the movie ultimately for me, is that they locked themselves into this framework of the ninety minutes. They're going to replicate the ninety minutes that SNL is on air doing it live. They're going to try to give you the sensation of what it's like leading up to a live and they think that innovation will carry over and paper over the problems with the script, which is mainly that these are fascinating human beings that have been thrown into like sitcom like scenarios just so we
can amp up the drama of this ninety minutes. You've mentioned a mini series how about two hours. Give me fucking another half an hour with any of these characters. I want to know what Gilda Radner was thinking. What's funny? I watched a like several behind the scenes electronic press kit type of stuff, right, and they were interviewing Ella Hunt, who plays Gilda Radner, who is English by the way, and so she's talking about her character and putting on
the wig and how excited it was. And intersperse between her interview, they're showing her clips from the movie. And I realized by the end of her segment, they've shown every clip of Gilda in the movie in her electronic presket. Every line of dialogue speaks was in there. And that's not cool. Man. When we take time to show Milton Burrell doing a routine on a made up variety show, so we can hammer home once again that old Hollywood doesn't want this to happen. And here's the thing that
they don't factor in. There's a h There was a There was an NBC executive named Herb Schlosser, right, who was above everybody, certainly above Dave Tebbitt. Right. He loved the show. Anytime there was an actual problem, they would go to Herb Schlosser and you go, I'll take care of this, don't worry about it.
There's one line in the movie that kind of speaks to that, where they go, somebody's paying for this, somebody is giving us money for some reason. And it's like, there's that, there is that essentially that that paying lip service to that which is the reality of this situation, Like these assholes aren't clearly making any decisions in reality they weren't. But the movie has to have why sort of villain quote unquote because it's a movie.
Yeah, and who needs it? Who cares the pressure of putting a show together without a bunch of mean old men saying you're going to fail? Is enough. That's the way you want to go. If you want to do the actual ninety minutes leading up to Saturday Night Live, talk to everybody again, every recollection of Actually Happened? Give me those fucking ninety minutes. Don't give me a lighting package dropping in, don't spill bricks onto the stage, nearly
crippling George Carlin. Why is George Carlin's hair one shade, beard another shade?
Matthew Reese, what were they thinking? Man?
He think it does a good job.
Yes, I don't know. I'm such I love George Carlin so much that I think it's his version of Carlin's fine.
It's fine Carlo coked out of his skull when he was on the side of the life. He fully copped on this sort of behavior, so I appreciate the characterization of him here. But but yeah, why I was just thrown off by his hair being lighter than his beard.
I mean, you know what what Matthew Reese kind of looked like with that hair and beard combo. He looked like Larry David in that movie where the inventor gets his invention stolen by John Hamm. He looks like that, and it was just like, kept throwing me off. I was like, is that Larry David also speaking to looking
like speaking to looking like someone else? You think it was really easy for Willem Dafoe to film this and Beetlejuice at the same time and not have to change his hairstyle because he literally looks like his character from Beetlejuice, just without the fucked up side of his head. Even the hairstyle is the same everything in the wild. I was like, man, this must have been the easiest double day of his life. He's great enough from one.
I gotta tell you because I know who Dave Tebbitt is and I know his feelings towards done and alive, and he was a prick like he assigned their unit production manager who was like the financial person. That was the real struggle on the show. It was always fighting
about money. Here's how good Willem Dafoe is. Early on, he's on the elevator trying with There's a scene with him and Lorne Michaels and Chevy Chase and Michael O'donaghuo after they've met the affiliates for the first time, where he's pumping up Lorne Michaels and trying to tell him to do the best show, to push all the boundaries to fucking rock the world. And I believed him. So that's good because I know David Tebbitt didn't actually want
that to happen. He was perfectly at ease letting Saturday Night Live fail so that they could replace it with
reruns of Carson. That's another thing that was a that's going on dramatically here, and another thing that had already occurred, like any fight with anybody, and Carson was perfectly happy having a new show as long as they weren't stepping on his toes, so long as they weren't running a rerun on Saturday Night, which is NBC had been running reruns of The Tonight Show on Saturday Night, and Carson thought it was he was becoming too overexposed, so he
wanted to go in there. But it's cheaper for NBC to run reruns of something than have to produce a whole new thing, So they were perfectly at ease to let Set Live Die are NBC's Saturday Night, as was known at the time. But we don't need those villains here, all those all.
That don't get I don't get it. Actually, let me phrase it. It's not that I don't get it. I just don't understand why it was needed. It's like in so many movies now, like why do we need love interests anymore? In a lot of movies that we've moved past that as a storytelling device that's needed anymore. We can make an action movie without a love interest, we can make a comedic film without a love interest, we
can make a horror movie without a love interest. And we should be able to make biopics without stereotypes of real people, because again, the this is five minute research versions of the characters. Really, especially with someone like Chevy Chase.
Oh it's good, not Chevy. I love Chevy. He's my favorite part of the movie.
I like Chevy. But again it's again it's we're just talking about what everybody knows about Chevy Chase and not really going any further than that, which.
In the context of this movie, Chevy comes off I think not necessarily nuanced. I didn't learn one goddamn thing about Chevy Chase at all, but I can imagine that he was exactly like this, Oh yeah, totally in the context of saying ninety minutes leading up to the start of a television show, I imagine this is the Chevy Chase you would experience. I know we're not going to get anything under the surface of them, but he comes off the best as far as i'm.
Which is weird given what essentially is the real life reality of what most people would have known and do know now about.
Chevy Chase, which is here's the thing, Herb.
He's not the one who would come off the best in any room for the most part, never Unfortunately, never.
Herb Sergeant was one of the writers on this show, and he was a veteran. There's a scene in this movie that actually did occur on the day, but it took place at a bar instead of at the desk, where Chevy was like, what's gonna happen to me? I'm going to be a big star in Herb Sergeant. Herb Sergeant basically did say, I figure you're just gonna end
¶ Character Arcs and Performances
up on a talk show, which chevy Chase eventually did have his own talk show, which failed. So that was a bit precient.
But the Chevy Chase show a thing that actually existed in the reality of our world, and who the fuck thought that was a good idea.
But what I love about that scene is it gives us what we fully expect from Chevy Chase, which is the sort of arrogance and self centeredness and egotism. And then Herb Sargeant takes him to task for it, and his reaction is I can't wait, Like I think you might eventually commit suicide, like jumping out of a billion Oh, I can't wait for that.
That's gonna be a good day.
That is so Chevy Chase Man and Corey Michael Smith. I believe who was the Riddler on Gotham. He looks facially enough like Chase, but again, it's the mannerisms, and it's the fucking vocalisms. It's just it's it does.
The falling down, he does the prat falls.
Not only that, but the way he I don't know, man, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. I'll tell you when I believed him the most is chevy Chase when he stands up and ground Belushi and pins him up against the wall. That physicality there that I believe from Chevy Chase, because everyone loves to talk about that. There was eventually a fistfight between chevy Chase and Bill Murray a couple of seasons into the show Go to Arn't you surprise?
Bill Murray wasn't in this movie.
No no, no, obviously not because he wasn't part of.
The first No but you, But no. I'm more speaking to the we're just gonna throw shit in here that we know that people who know that this didn't happen.
Yeah.
No.
What I'm surprised is they didn't have him like in the background, going maybe next time, Billy.
No, Yeah, like with this kid Bill in the audience. He's coming out. He's a real coming up kid. Yeah, the fucking they didn't have an Anakin moment in the movie with Bill Murray. Yeah, was surprised that was not in this movie.
Yes, because there are moments from the future in this movie. At one point, o'donnah was sitting at a desk with Franken and Davis and Al. Franken is eating from a box of Colon blow cereal, which is a parody commercial that Phil Hartman did in eighty eight or eighty nine.
Ye, and hey, did Lorne Michael see himself in the future. I guess that's what that scene is where he's like staring at the old bald Man. Yeah, but again, it's more speaking to the futurisms of the movie, including the Gilda Radner knows She's gonna die scene, which was just, oh, my god, movie, we get it, we know, but my god, I can see myself twenty years from No Fun.
And Okay, here's a characterization that did not work for me as far as giving us the surface of what we expect. They portrayed mluci as this feral animal.
Yeah, he looked like Wolverine from the side from time to time.
Yeah, man, and we get occasional glimpses of what probably he was actually like, but like when he's on the ice skating rink, which again didn't happen that night.
But yeah, but it's a good moment if you're gonna include me, it is a good moment. They take that one and it works.
But yeah, I will say that the movie kind of comes off like Birdman. It's almost like they're trying to do the one continuous take, but they don't adhere to it. They don't make it a point of it. But the camera is constantly moving from scent to scent, from back, backstage to four ground whatever.
Blah blah blah blah blah.
But we'll on occasions slow down for about thirty seconds to two minutes where we'll have moments where we spend with the cast and it's always like a pairing from the cast where.
It does have that weird glow and haze to it.
But she like not in sixteen millimeter. Good for them because it does feel like nineteen seventy five New York City like that. I appreciate. There Again, a lot that I like in this movie, But in these scenes, these sort of two hand or scenes with there's Garrett Morris and Jane Curtin have a scene together where she just basically does what Jane Curtin did or did best, but
as a performer, like she does a skit. There are so many times where we slow down to meet one of our characters and they're just doing bits, and that drives me crazy. I want to know, first of all, I want to know what Garrett Morris thought beyond what am I doing here? Because that would be his hit, that would be his refrain for the entirety of Saturday Night Live, because they were constantly underutilizing him. And I get that they're putting that in here, but he just
keeps hammering that home. So that's his fucking character arc for the movie is I don't know why I'm here. Jane Kurtin is just being the character she plays and the fucking skits that she's doing for some reason, like that's what we're supposed to take away from her. Lorraine Newman is apparently very wounded that she's not the only target of dan Aykroyd's affections. That's her character arc for
this fucking movie. Uh CHAMPI A gets an actual character arc. Danny, I don't know what his fucking character arc is other than talking people down from drugs and fucking and how many times did he do that in the ninety minutes before fucking air? And yeah, yeah twice and can.
I and I guess look you'll Keenan and Jason Reightman are also being very clever in that the structure of the movie somewhat tries to reflect a episode of SNL two right, literally two musical performances in the movie as well. Again, and then we have those scenes that feel like, again
¶ Bits, Skits, and Sketches
there are these two hander scenes between characters, but again it feels like it could be a segment on SNL in terms of it being like, this is a thing that happens, and then we move on and it affects literally nothing else and the rest of the goddamn movie. I think, ultimately is the problem with the movie is there's no interconnectivity with anything, and the characters are just a stereotype of the person we know, which does no heavy lifting. This was not one magical evening, because holy shit,
all these things can't happen in one night. That's too magical of an evening, even for SNL. That's why movies are fictional, because you can make a movie like, Oh my God, after Hours, that's one magical evening. But that's fucking fictional. This movie's trying to be that in a lot of ways. Oh all these things happen in one night, isn't that fucking nuts?
Here's the thing I'm gonna keep saying this. They've hamstrung themselves by locking this nine ninety minute beforehand? Yeah time frame? Am I supposed to believe that? Literally ten minutes before airtime? Lorne Michaels met Alan Zoy Bell in a fucking bar pumping out jokes for a Boris Belt comedian. Are you kidding me? Did that work for you even dramatically? I'm sure you did, as far as you knew that actually happened. What did that do for you dramatically in the story that they were telling.
As far as I knew, I know, it did not happen. It did not happen that way.
It did seem like that they were foundering and they suddenly they like, we needed jokes, and then suddenly Zibell comes and saves the day.
That's the way it happened in real life, right, I know, nothing about reality? What is reality?
That the reality is? Alan Zwibell fucking turned in his book when word went out that they were hiring writers for Sign Out Live, and they read his fucking jokes, including the prostitute joke gets on the air in the first episode, and they hired him and he became like one of the best fucking comedy writers in television. That's what happened. What was like, why are Jason right? Why are you doing these things? Why are these sitcom like moments like crammed in here?
You think you would want to represent these people better given your direct relation in contact with them. But hey, by the way, uh Nicholas Podeny, the kid doing the Billy Crystal's pretty good man, not Billy Crystal's fucking wild. I honestly, close your eyes and tell me that's not just Billy Crystal. Somehow that kid just opens his mouth and Billy Crystal's voice comes out. It's really good. And if you showed it to anybody and asked you to ask them to tell you who that was, there's no
question who that is. Even if you don't tell them it's Billy Christal, it's Billy Crystal. Clearly.
Yeah, for those of you who don't know, I haven't seen the movie yet. Okay, leading up to the premitive sentate life, Lorden Michael's overbooked. Obviously, you want to have too much matim than too little, and so they booked three stand up comedians, George Carlin who was the host, Valerie Bromfield, and Billy Crystal. That's what didn't happen ten minutes before the show. It happened that night, but not anyway. Billy Crystal had a routine that was six minutes long.
Valeri Bromfeldt had a six minute routine. They were each told that they had to cut it down to two minutes. Valeri Bromfeldt stay. Billy Crystal's people made him leave, and
that was a regret. It is my understanding that when you're watching the movie, if you see anyone with a script in their hand, those are photocopies of one of the original scripts from Saturday Night Live, which was provided to them by Billy Crystal, who was the only one who still had his script because he took his home with him that night.
Ain't it weird how life works out that way?
It is? And this scene represents to me another thing that we need to talk about in the movie, which is, first of all, if I'm in a scenario where anyone starts doing a skit to me, I'm going to get up and leave real life.
But you're doing a bit. You don't want to do a bit.
Right now, my god, don't put there's bits in it.
There's bits in their skits, right, there's bits in their skits. Bits are organic. Skits is some shit that you had in your fucking back pockets.
A bit as yeah, a bit as a joke. A skit is a fucking miming sort of performance. And then a sketch is what sat in life is trying to achieve. Bill, Crystal Harry is doing doing a skit, and it drives me crazy, and it leads to a greater conversation, I believe, which is, you've chosen to make a movie about the funniest people on earth, one of the funniest shows of all time for fifty years. When did you laugh in the movie, Chris?
Exactly, boy, Rhetorical questions are fun. It can be fun, folks. I didn't. And again it's because you know it's a biopic, which means no fun can be had by anyone other than again, like it was a good dramatic film, but why is this story being told that way?
Why?
You know what it reminds me of. It's like they took the last ten minutes of Ghostbusters Afterlife and turned it into an hour and a half movie, just like this weird, fucking pastiche of things that you know and love and have heard of, but now being shown through the lens of nineteen seventy five SNL. And it's here's Chevy Chase and he knows he's gonna be a big star, and here's Dan Ackroyd. It's, yeah, like, what is this ready player one for the SNL crowd? That's what it
feels like. It's just this fucking pastiche. That's why we were making the Bill Murray joke early on, because it is a surprising. There wasn't like an after post credit scene with Bill Murray. Hey, Lauren, there's this new comedian we want you to talk to. His name's Bill. Bill Murray will return in Saturday Night too. That's what this movie's speaking to in a lot of ways. The you know.
Okay, so there's a scene TwixT Milton Burrow and Chevy Chase where Chevy Chase had where rather Milton Burrow pulls out his huge dick. He's famous in Hollywood for having a huge dick him and Forrest Tucker. Now that did happen to Zwhy Belle Z Why Belle saw it? But it wasn't in a confrontational way. Here's what I'll say. If you're going to include Milton burrole, the only reason to do so is when he actually appeared on the show.
They were doing a sketch where his character is introduced late and he did this bullshit von Villian move where he would start at the back of the stage so you'd focus on him like while the other characters are talking, and then he would walk all the way up to the front, so he's the focus no matter what is happening. And Bill Murray knew he was going to do it, so he got in the way and blocked him the
entire way up. That to me is so much more of a fuck you than just a trading barbes with Chevy Chase, because they're doing it on the air in this medium that Milton Burrow like claims ownership of I get no, I get why they're doing the ninety minutes beforehand. I get the idea, but they've absolutely cut their own legs down from under themselves. Because there are so many fascinating stories about Saturday Night Live. You've just genius and most of them, and you're adding in stuff that you
don't need at all. I don't know. I think this movie is a beautiful failure.
Yeah, and I don't think it tries hard enough. With material that's so rich, you don't need to really try that hard to adapt it. It adapts itself, for fuck's sake. The book is an oral history. That means they just talk to the people and ask them questions, and then they turned it into a goddamn book because the narrative tells itself, for fuck's sake. That's what an oral history is. And here we have the filmic equivalent of just reading the back of a serial box and then the best
hits it is and now that's SNL. You know those CDs and now those hits. It's just condense it all down into one thing. But you can't do that with something like this. This is Look, it's coming out in the fiftieth year or the year before the fiftieth year
of SNL correct twenty twenty five is fifty years of SNL. No, like, this is a thing that should be a love letter to the people that love SNL, not a grimmer for people who have no fucking idea what this story is so that they can get away with inserting horseshit and trying to pass it off as happening.
Yeah, that goes for both of us. I think it goes for people who don't know the history. But you give them the honest story, but then give us the honest story too. You keep mentioning the book Live from New York. The OORL has the uncensored History of Satday Night Live. That's Tom Shales and James Andrew Miller's book, and it is essential if you want to know anything
about the history of Centerate Live. I definitely get it, because you're going to get it from the beginning up until the present or the present when the book came out, which was like it right twenty years ago now. But I would say this book, which is Saturday Night a Backstage History of Saturday Night Live by Doug Hill and Jeff Weingrad, is the actual book to get if you're
interested in the early years of Saturday Night Live. Because they covered from seventy five to eighty five basically, so those ten years, and they get real granular, like I know as much as I know because of this book. And everyone was talking to these guys at the time, so they got a lot of the dirt and a
lot of the minutia. How do I know that those bricks were late at six am the night before because of this book, because they talked to Eugene Lee and Leo Yoshimura and the stage hands who were pissed off. So I would encourage everyone to see to read those if you want a more a rounder appreciation of what actually happened. And here's another thing I want to say. You go, you decide you're making this Center in a live movie. You're going to make it in this ninety
minute format, just like Center Alive. Right, that's the structure you're going to do because you're care being experimental with it, right, Okay, Now, then cast six people and have them play every fucking part because you're doing Saturday Night Live, right. You Sure you can have musical guests, and you can have other guest performers and stuff and a host, but really get six performers, dress them up like those fucking people and then have them perform every fucking role in the movie.
I think if you want to go audacious and do that.
That's creative. That's an idea worth getting excited about.
It's no less valid than making up a bunch of shit that did not happen on the day just for dramatic effect.
That's what I mean. I remember that Bob Dylan movie that had five different interpretations of Bob Dylan, and now we're just getting Timothy Shallomy as Bob Dylan. Who fucking cares. Give me a fucking break. Do something original with the fucking idea, because just telling the story linearly can be done already. That's called books. But now we're just making shit up for the sake of making shit up. If we're like you said, if we're just gonna make shit up, let's go for.
It, I will say. In the movie's favorite, at least avoids the walk hard Dewey Cox's story convention of people just saying the full name of another character so we know who they are. But it does make the sort of fumble of walking past the camera moves past the page desk where two characters are saying the package should be addressed Al Franken and Tom Davis. Oh my god, that's just one step down from Hi there, John Lennon. Nice to meet you, buddy, Holly.
And that's what Walk Hard took to task with biopicks in general. And this is a biopic, it just happens to be a very specific kind of biopic that normally, when done this way, doesn't fumble this Hard.
Yeah, if you're doing anything they're doing in Walk Hard, you need to rethink it. Just don't do that. Yeah, everything is in that movie for very specific reason. It's a lesson book for biopicks on what exactly not to do. Don't do those things.
I'm surprised it's not in this movie, but we're three quarters of the way there, Like having Lorne Michael's on his deathbed telling someone the story of the first Saturday Night Live, Like, I'm shocked we're not doing that. Like, I'm shocked because the movie does pretty much everything else that you would hold against biopicks. It really does. You don't want none of this, Like we have similar scenes to that, sure do.
We've got the We've got Garrett Morris tempted with cocaine by by evil Preston Band that eventually Belushi sniffs off of him.
You don't want none of this, Garrett Morris?
The fuck? Why am I here?
Yeah? Oh wow? The movie is I heard a lot about the West Coast woke liberal leftist elites, and the movie is like of the movie Three Quarters Away, just goes Garrett Morris is on SNL because he was black, apparently is what the movie wants us to think, which.
Is true and just come out and fucking say it. Let me tell you one of my very earliest memories I have several, but one of them, very vividly, is Dan Ackroyd dressed as Julia Child cutting himself and blood spurting all over the kitchen, right, and my parents cackling with laughter over it. It is an incredibly formative image and moment in my young life, right, And that set up for the sketches portrayed here in this movie, that
sketches from season four of Saturday Night Live. I know that because I was born in seventy three and would not have been able to see anything prior to that on television, certainly not remember it. Another moment, where why are you bringing this here into this movie? Was there not an.
Fan service, like I said, Ghostbusters after.
A lit so they could get him getting splashed with blood and giving up and have the Edwood moment of the movie, which is when he goes to the bar, the got to go meet Dorson Wells moment.
Everybody's done this movie before. The movie just doesn't care that somebody's done it already.
Beautiful things.
It's not that it even doesn't care. Yeah, I'm just gonna don't know. I've seen it.
I'm not going to do.
I've seen worse. I've seen worse biopicks, I really have. I've seen lazier biopicks. This. While this is a lazy biopic, it still has some redeeming quality because this is probably going to be the only other time that this story is told, because now they've unless somebody will to do a Chevy Chase movie or a Gilda Radner movie or a John Belushi movie.
So that's the shame of it that makes it a definitive right. Yeah, That's what actually bothers me about this is because literally a six episode mini series hour long episodes could have told the story of Early Center and live in all of its crazy glory, and we would have gotten to know. I would like to have known what Gilda Radner was thinking when she moved down to New York, being alone in the city. You know what was dan Aykroyd doing? I know what he was doing,
¶ Final Thoughts and Recommendations
but why were we portraying some of that? That The lives of these characters are rich and crazy and fun and full. But all they wanted to hear is tell the story about Lauren Michael's fighting the man, as if we haven't lionized Lorne Michael's enough, and we're about to on a grand scale, like in just a couple of weeks is the fiftieth anniversary special where it's going to be a love fest for Laurne Michaels, and God bless Laurne Michaels. It was his vision. He did pull it together.
He still has maintained it for fifty years. There's nothing like him. I just don't know that we needed a focus solely on him. I don't know that I needed to hear Rosie Schuster give me his sad, sack, bad backstory in this movie. When I came away not knowing one more thing about anyone involved in this cast or well on Loris well.
On Lorne Michaels in a lot of ways feels like a cipher in the movie. Anyways, he's I mean, he's there. It's fine. But again, he's the main character of the movie. But inasmuch as there are any characters in the movie more than just lines being said to what end, nobody feels like a real character. Nobody feels like he actually about.
Lauren Michaels, though you would come away knowing something about Lauren Michaels. Can you even tell me who Anne Beats was in this movie?
Nope?
Yeah, exactly?
What about Lorraine Newman?
What about Lorraine Newman?
Or about Jane Curtin.
Yeah, I don't know anybody anymore than I did. And maybe that's not the movie that they were making, but that's the movie that we needed.
That's the movie that you wanted, and that's the movie that I wanted, and that's the movie that needed to happen, because again, SNL is a cultural touchstone for a reason. You could make a show about the creation and the writer's room of the Simpsons in the same way you're making a movie but Saturday Night Live. These are cultural
touchstones for people that matter. And I would hope that if you did something similarly for a cultural touchdowne Like the Simpsons, you would give a fuck about what you're doing and actually portray it interestingly, not just as a bunch of people rattling off what we all know they're going to say. Anyways. Garrett Morris didn't know why he was there, Chevy Chase was an asshole, dan Ackroyd's a weirdo, and John Belushi was unhinged. Wow, I knew all of
that ahead of time. And I think anybody who goes to watch this movie is going to anyways, because that's the other question, right oly at the end of the day, is a nineteen year old watching this movie? No? Who is watching this movie? You me people in between our age group, maybe people a little bit older than you, but probably not people much older than Maybe. I wouldn't think people much older than you would be watching this movie. Just watch sketches from SNL in a lot of ways.
Yeah, if you've got a Peacock subscription, dive in YouTube. All fifty seasons are available on peacock right now. Last night I watched the first episode of Centerate Live again, and it is a mess. Here's another thing that they didn't really touch on and I wish they had, which was Paul Simon was a really good friend of Louren Michaels.
He hosted the second episode of Center Life. There were a bunch of very established people who were friends of Lorne Michaels, were acquaintances who also wanted to host the first episode of Senate Live, and he put them all off. And do you know why, because he knew the first episode is going to be a disastin no matter what happened. Wanted to work out all the kinks and start fresh
in the second, which is exactly what they did. The show would hit its stride, by the way, with the Candice Bergen episode, which is how this movie should have ended. Just Sam, would you recommend the movie?
Chris?
Would you recommend people go to the theater and pay for this movie?
No? I would not. Again again, that's what I was. Ultimately, what you're talking about, in a lot of ways is exactly what I'm talking about. I think it's just we're saying the same thing here, which is who is this for? And why would someone go see it? And I don't know who this movie's for, and I don't know why anyone would go and see it, because if you know enough about SNL, you're probably gonna avoid this because this
is not speaking to the reality of it was. And if you don't know anything about SNL, this is not something you're going to be interested in because I just again, I don't think it's doing enough to warrant anyone who's not at least somewhat aware to come into the fold. This movie suffers from the one thing that so many other things suffer from that we've talked about in the past, which is it's making me think of other things that are actually good that aren't this, that I'd rather be watching.
In this movie's case, it's sketches from SNL, which is what you're aping. Just let me watch those then with the real people, and I'll enjoy that a lot more. We talked about The Doors recently, and I have subsequently watched that movie like five more times, and I really enjoy it a lot more. And I will tell you why, because of the recreation and just creation of things of it all. Everything in between, everything in between those scenes in the movie is nothing that I not necessarily care about,
but nothing I'm there for. Why would we try to recreate things that are in the world that can be consumed in a minute and a half because most again, most of the best sketches of early SNL aren't sitting at ten minutes long. They're they're not.
That's Oh, actually, I'm now going to tell you to go back and watch some'm early sat in Alive, because am I The sketches are enormous, they go on. There is so much chaff in the wheat in early SNL.
Maybe I wanted to give it the benefit of the day.
You will you will be shocked how much bad material got on the air. But that's part of it. It's part of its history.
It's part of honing the blade of what they were doing. It doesn't come out fully formed, it comes out formed enough. It's been honed and sharpened for fifty fucking years.
At this point, I'd brought up the Doors movie because I think when we were talking about that, I mentioned this movie in relation to that, because that's a movie that is total garbage. It is historically all over the place, and I still fucking love it.
It's faky, it's false in every way, shapen.
For but I still love it for the reasons you mentioned, which is the recreation of the time and the place and the performance is going on, and all the effort, it's all paying off. It's just that the script isn't supporting it. In the filmmaking that's mostly supporting it. Here
it's the same thing. And I imagine after a few years and maybe a couple more viewings of this movie, I can appreciate it the way that I appreciate the Doors movie, which is what I would recommend about the movie, which is I think all of these performances are great. I love the look of the movie. I love the recreation of aid Ah at the time. I love seeing
all the old props and all the people. I loved being able to just look at a scene and look at the characters on screen and know everybody down to like stage hands, who they were, Like, I recognize Joe Disco, that's you gotta be the fanatic to recognize that guy in this fucking movie. I love all of that, and I think people should watch the movie when it's available for streaming, with a hope that they will then go read Saturday Night and Live from New York and then
I recommended this movie over this movie. We already mentioned it. The Feudal and stupid gesture the Doug Kenny movie, because you're also going to get most of the characters here. Gilda Radner shows up in there, played by Jackie Tone does a I'm sorry, a much better job of Gilda Radner. There's a Belushi in there we get. We get Joel McHale Chevy Chase's coast are playing Chemmy Chase in that movie. He does a great job in that too. That movie covers a lot of.
A talk show hosts.
Yeah, and you know what, we even get Lauren Michaels here, because Doug Kenny felt like Lauren Michaels basically just fucking ripped off the Lampoon Radio show and National Lampoon in general and poached all of his best talent and what made his show. They don't cover that in the legend of Laurne Michaels here, that he basically stole all the talent from other areas and slapped it into his thing.
Might make Lorne Michaels the villain of the movie.
God, wouldn't that have been interesting? They could have taken that stand.
As opposed to romanticizing the living shit out of it, just like Steven Spielberg did with the Fableman's Oh my again, apropo given who plays Lorne Michaels.
I guess if you cast that kid as Hitler, we're gonna get a sweet and fuzzy Hitler.
I was gonna say, who can Gabriel label play next? Who's the next titan of pop culture and or television or movies that he can play? What's waiting next? He's Matt Greening in Springfield.
That's right. Fox executives are wrestling Matt Groening to the ground when some bullshit seen to let us know that there was a struggle involved.
Ten minutes to the Tracy Omen show. Oh my god, here we go.
I'm drawing as fast as I can.
Tell me the story about the Simpsons, where is the easiest path to go? The Matt Greening story. It's so many other things, like what's the easiest route? Okay, let's just take that.
And we know it should be about Schwartzwelder.
Or Dan Castell, Lenetta or I don't know, Julie camp, Max Crossbrien, Phil Hartman. It's about Phil Hartman. Really, that's the story.
He's the real fucking interesting guy there. Do you ever see his movie Cold Blooded with Jason Priestley and Peter Riegert. Oh my god, go see that movie. It's like this fucking amoral hitman with the sociopath who's like trying to relate to another human being, so he finds an old hit man to like to teach him how to be human. It's really good, huh.
I think we had people trying to make a story that was a relatable tale of, like you said, fighting the man but failing horribly the same way someone got on stage and started cursing at people in the audience. Best intentions go only as far as people putting in the effort, and stopping yourself from saying the N word is just like stopping yourself from telling the laziest story
about SNL possible. Even if they had told it from chevy Chase's point of view, wouldn't that have been a more interesting story, because given how much of a deal, given how much of a demon he has been d by everything, including doing it to himself, that's the most audacious story to take on is to tell it from chevy Chase's point of view and make him a relatable character, which would be like, that's the uphill, that's the Sissophian task, and the movie tries to do it, but it would
have been really impressive if that had been the way you tell the story.
Oh, they definitely did it here, Like Chevy cums as much as you can. I'm telling you, I came away loving Chevy in this movie.
Is that the thing that no one, if you don't know anything about any of this, like, you'd be like, Chevy Chase is a nice guy, right, No, I.
Think they think they deal with him fairly. Here is my point. But if they had what you're saying focused on Chevy's point of view from the get go and continue to deal with him fairly, show what a prick he is, and like over the course of the film we're on his side, then yeah, that would have been something. Man.
Yeah, but again, when good intentions go only so far, when the intent stops mattering and I don't know what the intent of this movie was, if you had told it from anyone else's point of view, there might have been.
A desjoy a celebration.
We're going to get that in real life. To your point, we don't need a fictionalized version of it.
That's so here's the thing, folks, I need you to go watch every season of Sunday Night Live, but watch the first season just for this movie. Then watch the movie, then read those books, Chris, when you're not, When you're not, this is your show too, your your culture Council. You can tell people where you're at and where to find other shit.
Much to the chagrin of at least two people on
the face of planet Earth. You can find everything I do over at weirdingwaymedia dot com, where yes, I am still, in fact the host of the Culture Cast, to show I do at least once a week, where we talk about movies that I have watched or I'm being asked to watch, or have given people the opportunity to watch with me, like we just did with you and I Father Malone for an entire month September, talking about a whole host of oddly biopics, and here we are talking
about another one. Jesus christ Man, You're just like, hey, I know that one genre of things you probably don't really like anymore than I do. We're gonna watch a lot of them, a lot, hey man. And yeah, you noped out of another new movie Joker Folio do. But in a lot of ways, it too is a biopic of a fake person, still a biopick. Those are called character studies when they're not about real people. So yeah, you can find all the musings about similar audio diversions
over at Weirdingwaymedia dot com. What about you, Father Malone.
They're listening to Way to Hear in midnine Viewing is the show. It's on twice a week with a there's a plethora of shows. You're listening to this show. Check me out there, check me out over at HP. Who is our composer. He does all the music for Midnight Viewing and most of the weirding Way Media. He does a show called Night Mister Walters, a taxi podcast. I co host that where we take a look at the
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Given the Paul Shaffer look like a ghoul in the movie, it makes sense.
Oh, I want to thank Michaels, I want to thank the cast. Thank you New York. How much time do we have a musical guest I want to thank you a little fights, I want to thank I want to think cold Play.
They've been on seventeen times. They can't.
In the
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