Midnight Viewing - The Trial of the Incredible Hulk (special Guest HP (Noise Junkies))

We're in waiting.

Welcome back midnight viewers to midnight Viewing. I'm following alone and we have a very special episode this week. Why what huh? It's comic book related. And joining me here to talk about it is our resident noise Junkie, the host of Night, mister Walter it was a taxi podcast, and the composer of everything You're gonna hear at the weirding Way Media Network. Mister HP, how are you, sir?

I'm well, but just don't make me angry, because you wouldn't like me when I'm angry fo them alone.

I certainly wouldn't.

Sorry, that was That's like a dad That's a really

Now, yeah, but it's appropriate for what we're talking about tonight, because what we are talking about tonight is the Trial of the Incredible Hulk from nineteen eighty nine. It's a TV movie, the second TV movie since the cancelation of the series. They had the Return of the Incredible Hulk right before this with Thor. That's right, Thor showed up in that one.

Can I say I much prefer going into this? I have to say I much prefer the Incredible Hulk returns because okay, it was so.

No, I'm going to stop you right there because we're just gonna get to why we're talking about this. And then I brought wapstraxotic about that fucking horrible that Dono the Donald Blake thing. Next week over there on the Disney Plus Networks, Marvel is reintroducing Daredevil to the world, the most successful version of Daredevil.

HB.

I know you're a deep Daredevil fan. We're going to get into that. You are. You love Daredevil more than any other superhero. It's on my favorite You are on record as that. Are you looking forward to the new reboot?

I absolutely am looking forward to it. I think original the When I say original, the first Daredevil series was fantastic. I absolutely love Vincent Andofrio as Kingpin. So that's reason enough for me to want to see this. But to your point that this is the best and frankly what you only one of two renderings of Daredevil in pop culture actually three, counting Ben Affleck as Ben Affleck as Daredevil. Excuse me? So, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. How about yourself?

Oh yeah, I'm dying to state it. Can't wait. I love it. I thought that was the best thing that came out of Marvel Television. I thought every other series dropped the ball in one way or but Daredevil was always really great. And that's where we got our Punisher. And I'm totally cool with them introducing all the characters on his show as a form of spinoffs, but as a way of a tribute a primer. We do this every time. Primer. I'm saying for next week's Daredevil reborn,

That's it, born again. You're right, it is. There is a bit of Catholicism to.

Know that ain't calicism. That's fucking Those are the crazy Baptists, all right. Anyway, So to commemorate that series coming out, we're looking back to the very first appearance of Daredevil on the screen, not counting his animated appearance in Spider Man and Amazing Friends back in nineteen eighty two or three. This is the Trial of the Incredible Hulk.

David Benner wanted to end the running. He wanted to live in peace. You have to stop something, but once again they made him angry. Maybe angry enough to kill. Maybe I'm along in a cage now imprisoned. He will struggle to hide the fury within him, but he will not succeed. I can't stand trial.

You had no.

Choice, because now David Benner faces his greatest trial, the Trial of the Incredible Hulk.

Hb It's nineteen eighty nine. Are you watching the Trial of the Incredible Hulk?

The original series with Bill Bixby was probably a slightly before my time. I think I was a little too young to really. I mean, look, all we wanted as kids, father Malone, was to watch the Incredible Hulk hulk out and mess stuff up.

Right.

There was a little too little of that in the original series for me, but Luf Forarigno as the Incredible Hulk was iconic for me. So yes, absolutely, I was looking forward to seeing this. As I said before, I loved The Incredible Hulk Returns and I was hoping for more of the same here.

Let's talk about The Incredible Hulk Returns. And that was the movie that preceded this one and then did well enough to inspire another one, but only as another backdoor pilot, because was not that The Incredible Hulk Returns was in fact a backdoor pilot for Thor. What is it about that first one you love so much? Before we get to your favorite superhero character, Daredevil?

It was so much fun. Look, I wasn't expecting to see a comic accurate depiction of Thor, nor did we get that in any way, shape or form, Because originally this is going back to Journey into Mystery. Thor had been bent to the earth as Donald Blake by Odin. He forgot who he was a lame And when I say lame, I mean somebody who had who couldn't walk, who had a cane named Donald Blake, who was secretly Thor, And through various machinations, he finally figures out who he

Thing. Man, I watched this when it came out, and I saw never to watch it again. So I have made him Donald Blake turning into Thor. He was in a situation where he couldn't make a lot of noise and he has to say odin when he turns into Thor and he whispered yells it like that.

HP.

I don't know how that one ended, because I turned it off at that point.

There's no The thing that The Trial of Incredible Hulk has over this is there's an actual villain, like a nemesis for the Hulk and for his superhero of the week. But in the in Returns there's not much of a villain. Tim Thomerson is actually the villain, if you can believe it. Charles Napier is in there somewhere from the Good Old Boys, from the Blues Brothers. He's a henchman. But the point I was making was Donald Blake and Thor in this

In a nutshell terrible. Okay, let's move on, We're I liked it.

It's look, it's not gonna win any awards, but it was fun.

Somebody says we got to turn Marvel's Daredevil into a series. This is the second attempt to turn it into a live action series in the nineteen eighties. By the way, they attempted back in nineteen eighty one but couldn't get any buyers. So here's another chance. We got a little bit of juice from the Hulk left, Let's squeeze it till it's green gow on the floor. It's so they can conct the Trial of the Incredible Hulk. Was it always called the try? I love the Incredible Hulk.

You wonder I don't know about this precious little trial going on in this The only trial I can think of is a dream sequence that David Banner has when he's afraid he's going to hulk out if he's forced to testify. But there's to my knowledge, there's never any other courtroom appearances in the whole movie. I don't know why they called it that, To be.

Fair, it's so they could call it the Trial of the Incredible Hulk and they can make that crazy poster with him on the stand, raising his arms and howling, and then everyone will tune in. It's like, mister Smith goes to Washington.

Mister Smith is at a pun. Are you making a pun about the actor who played Matt Murdoch?

Are we talking about Rex Smith, the one and only? Oh my god, where do we know Rex Smith from?

We would know him from Street Hawk, which was like Night Rider but with motorcycles.

Oh yes, I loved Street Hawk. I watched every episode of Street Hawk.

This is Jesse Muck, an ex motorcycle cop, injured in the line of duty, now.

A police troubleshooter.

He's been recruited for a top secret government mission to ride street Hook, an all terrain attack motorcycle designed fight urban crime, capable of incredible speeds up to three hundred miles, and all an immense firepower. Only one man, Federal agent Norman Tuttle, knows Jesse Mark's true identity, Man Machine street Hook.

It was so much more versatile. I thought that motorcycle than Kit you could get into tighter spaces. Kit was it said the Simpsons joke where it's a jet boat and they're like, well, we'll take that canal. But there's always a Canal, who was.

The actor who played his tech, the guy who was in the home base who helped Rex Smith do his thing.

Was it Joe Rego Buto, that's it.

Joe Rego Bhutto. He came up on another podcast that you and I do night, mister Walters.

I think.

Wasn't that we didn't talk about him once? Joe Rigobutto.

I don't know. It seems like we probably just talked about him at some point in our lives. Can't. He must have been in a superhero thing or two.

The only thing I can ever think of with him was Murphy Brown and Street Hawk. That's pretty much it. He might have been in Star Trek. He seems like somebody who would be made up as a as an alien.

And I certainly remember him hunting down Mark from Orc. Remember that so like alien bounty hunter and came to fuck with Mark's life and put them on the run and everything. You remember that, like Mark real his existence as an alien on Earth just to get away from Joe regelbutto Well.

Let's not forget Mark once upon a time was a villain himself in Happy Days?

Was he really a villain? He was just puppeteering the fawns around a little bit. He didn't mean no harm.

They had a thumb off right. He had the stronger thumb, and the fawns was victorious.

No orc and thumb will defeat a terran thumb I tells you.

Cannot stand but no. I to be honest, I don't remember a lot about Street Hawk, but I'm sure that I was glad to it for the six months or whatever that it ran on television.

Yeah, Rex Smith, he was the star of Streamhawk. I also remember him from that film version of the Pirates of Penzance with Linda Ronsten, which I thought he was actually really good.

I think he actually had a lot of talent. I think as easy a target as Rex Smith might be because of some of his choices and jobs, I think the guy was really talented. I think he's sang really well. I think he's a decent actor. I think he's actually well, we'll talk about it, but he's in this. Then he does the thing.

So it seemed like the nineteen eighties there seemed to be a proliferation of these super handsome, matinee idle soap opera type looking guys who couldn't get a fucking job. If they had come up in the fifties or the sixties, you know, they would have been huge stars. But for some reason, their looks are working against them at this point, and Rex Smith's falls four square into that. For me, I dismiss him, I think just because of the way he looks.

Yeah, I would agree. It's an interesting point to make, and in his case, I think it's not fair, because I do think there certainly have been no shortage of actors that trade on their looks who may not be the most talented one of the bunch. But I think in his case, like I said, I think it's a little unfair. I think he's actually very talented, and maybe in a different time, a different place, maybe he would have been somebody more akin to I don't know, like a Brad Pitt or something.

I feel bad for dismissing him because rewatching this, I expected it to be a cheese fast and I thought he was actually pretty goddamn good.

I agree one hundred percent. This is probably one of my least favorite of the Incredible Hulk TV movies, and so I went into it with a lot of trepidation, but I totally agree. I thought he comports himself really well. Any you know, there's some interesting choices for the costume and the character, but he does the best with what he has, and if there's any shortcoming to this, it's not due to Rex Smith.

The movie takes place effectively, and I don't know what are they even attempting to give us New York.

It's they really don't. It's at one point they're in the subway and it's the cleanest subway that I've ever seen, which immediately in my mind marks it as a Canadian production.

Oh my god, this is so Canada, right from the opening field where they're out there digging. My point being is I think just Rex Smith. Had he been in a better production of Daredevil, a more true to the comic book, more modern version of Daredevil, I think he would have been fine. I would have watched week after week.

The frustrating part for me, I think is the obvious deviations they made from just the way the character looks like the potonic ideal of how Daredevil is supposed to be costumed. For me is the red costume with the little horns on top, the little d insignia on his chest, maybe the yellow and black one is maybe another one, but they go And also the fact that Matt Murdoch

What did you think I could have gotten behind the ninja outfit, which is what they've put him in here if the mask didn't look like it rolled down in the front and therefore protruded. It looked like he was wearing a pair of blue blocker sunglasses under it, and in fact I thought he did have goggles under there. So when he finally took the mask off, I was like, wait, the mask just is bulky and weird like that.

It was a strange look because it's almost as if he had the mask, but then he felt the need to add a piece that covered his eyes after the fact, so it's like bolted on to the head piece proper.

It's like he used magic tape that's literally adhesive instead of actually doing the sewing.

I got used to that pretty quickly after, you know, a few minutes of watching him do used to it.

I never got used to that suit.

It was well, because I mean, what am I gonna do just sit here and grumble about it. I wanted to try and lose myself in the movie a little bit, so I wasn't going to let that hinder my enjoyment. I took note of it. I said, well, that's there's no going back and fixing that, so let's just appreciate it for what it is.

That suit ain't gonna break your stride, and now we gotta keep moving. So that's our day, our devil. He is the reason we're here. Our lead, however, is of

It's my understanding that I think he was one of the producers didn't like alliterative names like like Lois Lane or Bruce Banner in this case, so the decision was made to make a David Bruce Banner. So it wasn't that bb thing. That's it. That's what I dug up. Now.

The story that stan Lee told, of course, is that the producer who he spoke to told him Bruce is a gay name, and we're not going to have a gay named character on our show. He's going to be David Bruce Banner.

There.

You can have your Bruce, but we're not going to call him that.

Oh I didn't come across that. That's terrible, isn't it. Absolutely? But it's nineteen eighty nine or whatever, so maybe it's not totally surprising. Things were a lot less enlightened. But I prefer to think of my sort of explanation over that.

But that logic is the shark from John's gay. According to this producer, he is, we get Bill Bixby back. We all love Bill Bixby. He shouldn't have directed this. I think you're can agree with me on that.

There's a lot of weird direct directing choices in this. It's a very cheaply it's a very cheap looking production, which is not necessarily a reflection of his directorial style. But yeah, I would say he's probably he'd probably reached the point in his career where he's you know what, if you want me to come back for your silly TV movie, I'll do it. But not only am I going to produce it, but I'm going to direct this fucker.

Sure, I think he wanted to get paid as many times as he could on this product because he knew that the whole thing was going away. And while I admire his hustle and I do think he deserves more than he got from that series, overall, his direction is awful. The action sequences here are terrible.

Yeah, there's a lot of high speed shutters, the kind of effect that you would have on your average home video camcorder. I know I had that. There's a lot of strange canted angles and surreal sort of zooms into people's faces, and there's a we'll talk about Kingpin obviously, but there's this obsession with photographing Kingpin's face with the sunglasses and having some sort of unique reflection off of it. He's it's very showy the direct the directing is like very showy.

Here, yeah, but supporting nothing. Steven Spielberg used to say, I used to think that I got the job because I knew where to put the camera. But it's because he knows how to tell a story. You can can't the angle all you want, but when the pacing is as glacial as it is here the chase of the Incredible Hulk, when he first shows up in the subway sequence which we'll get to, the police chase him. They

I think part of the problem is if you looked at just the story, there's about forty five minutes worth of actual storytelling happening here. The story, there's precious little story going on which I know we'll talk about, so I think a lot of that. Maybe frankly, he might be patting the duration of the movie a little bit by putting in these unmotivated shots of cops walking around leisurely.

Right, Typical series start here, David Banner in a field, digging a ditch.

The buddiest, grossest ditch you can imagine.

And what looks like the coldest day of the year, and just with Rubes and he's Here's what I learned from watching this sequence. It made me realize that entire television series, and by the way, I watched it pretty religiously when I was a kid, that entire series was based on frustration, because it's really about watching David Banner get kicked around for forty five minutes and then the Hulk comes out and settles everyone's hash.

That might be part of the reason why I didn't love the show is because he's so every episode that they're coming up with new ways, effectively for Banner to be bullied into finally having no choice but to become the Hulk and set things right. But this was really egregious, this particular version of it, because this rube like they're getting out of this giant hole for lunch, and first thing the roub does is tug him back so that

And that so now I realized that was too much frustration for my childhood brain, now that I remember it from the original series, because you do, like, nobody wants to watch your hero get kicked around, and that series was predicated on watching him get kicked around. What they decided and it's not a bad idea, is they turned

What doesn't make sense to me in this case, the father balloon is so he has at he's on this farm, working this farm as a hired hand, and then after this altercation with this guy who's giving him a hard time, he decides to leave. He's gonna leave the farm. And they paint this idea that there's some sort of chemistry with the woman who runs the farm, and she has a conversation. She says to where are you gonna go? What are you gonna do? And he says, I'm gonna

It didn't make any sense now that you up, and I wrote down during that sequence, every answer he gives her is this cryptic answer. It I'm just talking about frustration. I wanted the woman to just say, would you just give me a straight answer? What's going on?

Oh?

Yes, got to keep moving on. No, he wouldn't.

Yep, got a very much arm's length, and it's clear like the woman actually there's some interest there. So I don't know, but he's got to move on. Like you said, he's the fugitive. He's got the backpack on his shoulder, and the sad piano music starts up, and there he goes. He's hitchhiking his way to the big city.

You bring up the theme song. Let's talk about the music before we go any further, shall we, Because the score here the music is by Lance Rubin. When everyone was complaining about synthesizers in movie and television soundtrack, this is the soundtrack that they were talking about. Ins that's twenty one jump Street, tinkly background, rolling sense. But as annoying as that is, they do work in the theme from the television series, which, come to find out, is called the Lonely Man theme.

Pretty much on the nose there.

It is the melancholic right next to our other obsession, Angela by Bob Over on Taxi. I think the theme from The Hulk is even sadder than that, And then to find out all these years that is by design it is the lonely man theme. And I'm thinking, why am I so lonely as an adult? Was it implanted in me as a child by the lonely man theme on the Hulk?

But see that's the sad sort of piano bit. But the actual theme that the titles for The Incredible Hulk was very different though. It was like this sort of remember that where they show him sitting in the gamma chamber.

Much more biotic man than the sort of plaintive I'm on the road by my lonesome.

Right, But that theme got the blood pumping that got you excited to see what the Hulk was going to do that week, whereas the lonely Man is the typify by by Banner, I said, hitchhikings down some lonely road having burned another bridge because of the Hulk.

It's so weird. They hype you up and then send you away sad.

It's very sad, but it's very effective. It's iconic. Right. You hear those what like it's four notes, but once you hear them, you instantly know what they are. It was up there with the theme from mash as signifiers that it was time for me to go to bed and get ready for school the next day.

Very sad. I was everyone in the seventies so depressed? And why were they passing that along with their children?

That's our inheritance. Here we are, we're reaping what we sowed.

Hey, listen, let's get to the city. What city is at HB? The city? Baby?

Did they ever call? I guess it's supposed to be New York because that's where Daredevil is from. Do they ever actually say New York?

Though? No, it's just the city the city. And that's because they're not going to be able to have any landmark incident because we're shooting in Vancouver over the course of one month.

Yeah, very clean city, Oh my, I'll say that.

And you know what, Matt Murdoch is really upwardly mobile, almost a yuppy. Would you call him a yuppy? I'd call him a yuppie.

Well, I think that's that's fair at that that time and place. Sure, he has a beautiful apartment or whatever he lives in. Yeah, the worst thing that we ever see is the flophouse that that Banner makes his way to. But even that is it doesn't look that determined. He's a code of paint. But it's not that bad.

That is the friendliest flophouse manager I've ever seen. I know he's mister Exposition. He's still let us know that Wilson Fisk owns that giant steel tower that the the marvel of architecture that they keep telling us as a marvel of architecture. It just seems like the most random office building.

But he is very friendly. He tries to engage David Banner in conversation, but he's having none of it. He just I'm here to sleep and that's it.

Here take my money. I don't want to stay a month, they'll stay a week. Don't high pressure me. I'll kill you and everyone in the vicinity. We meet Matt Murdoch, who they go to paines to let us know he's blind without showing us is blind by a box drops in his closet and he blocks it kind which is weird.

Why wouldn't he catch the box instead of like he does a karate chop to fling it out of the way. But why wouldn't he catch it?

Why would the box fall?

I don't know. That's a good question too.

Really weird. And then off to the office Murdoch and Nelson.

Right, No, that's another deviation from the norm. It's not Foggy, it's I couldn't even tell you the character's name. He's a former sergeant in the Army that works for Matt Murdoch.

Oh, that's that's Al pettyman that The character's name is Al Pedtiman played by Richard Cummings Junior, and his partner is Chris de Kline played by Nancy Everhard. So it's Murdoch in Klein. Is this pathological need of every television adaptation before recent superhero dominance where they had to change literally fucking everything except who the main character is and basically his backstory.

But might that have been a stipulation from Marvel Comics that obviously they weren't financially where they are now. But maybe they said, look, we'll let you use the character, but you can't it can't be too close to the comic because that might be confusing for our readers. So instead of having Daredevil BXYZ. Why don't you tweak it a little bit? They did the same thing with the Thoor.

Nerdier listeners than us, please write to the show father Malone seventy one at gmail dot com if you know the backstory as to why they keep doing that or kept doing this bullshit. I'd love to know.

It's important to take moment and just reflect on the fact that this was a time where the idea of a Marvel adaptation was very different than it's been for the last what fifteen years or so. This is bottom of the barrel budget stuff, as we already talked about. They're filming this thing in Vancouver to pass for New York on the cheapest of budgets, and this is the

Can you imagine a heist looking like this in a current Marvel film? Oh my god, I would agree with everyone that Marvel should hang it up. They think they're being super high tech here too, which is crazy. It is a group of criminals who all are all stationed within a jewelry store and at the last second they put on their masks. What why didn't you walk in with your masks? First of all? Then they slapped the

I did too. It was a little bit slap dash, but I mean, it's no Ocean's eleven. That's what they were going for. Because there's all these obscure handoffs of the jewelry, and there's someone who's pretending to be a homeless woman who sets off a smoke bomb and a car and they put it in her cart and someone takes her from the car.

Content Because you know what, this actually reminded me very much of a movie from around the same time that was Johnny Handsome, The Walter Hill flick Yeah, Yeah, York, where they have a very similar snatch and grab sequence, including a car as decoy outside with an explosive and the car. Wow, maybe they've ripped it off from this movie.

It was pretty silly. And the fact that ultimately those two criminals end up escaping via the subway like they're giggling and like rubbing their hands, I mean, they're so obviously up to no good. It didn't make any sense to me that. I mean, I guess that's just the logic of the movie, but yeah, it's But the thing of it is, ultimately this heist means nothing in the context of the movie, because the whole movie is really about what happens after the heist when they're on this subway.

Right, Yeah, this is where the action really begins because okay, first to the point that we meet our two thuggy characters here who are going to be the sort of catalyst for the rest of them. Okay, they are low level morons who work for Kingpin. They are not only part of that group that comes running helter skelter out of the thing, basically screaming, look at me, I robbed

Villains exactly exactly, and they happen unfortunately for everyone involved. They pick the same subway car as David Banner. I don't know why he's there. He's just riding the subway because he's looking moody.

In the city. Is going to find some radiation or something, right.

So they, in typical eighties Lackey fashion, they fixate on the one pretty woman on the subway car just someone who's minding their own business. This I don't. I couldn't even tell you the actress's name, to be honest, you probably have it.

There I do. It's Marta Dubois.

Was she in anything else that I would know her from?

Because I could not stand her?

She was pretty bad, I agree, But basically they typical TV villains. They fixate on this woman and they start harassing her awfully, like one of them basically wants to have his way with her right there in the car.

My god, everything in the eighties in action involved an attempting rape. It's just so crazy as a fucking plot motivator.

It's awful. But the whole time David Banner has this because she's essentially him for help, and David Banner has this the stock he looks like he has heartburn kind of. He has this anguish look on his face like I want to help you, but I'm really afraid what's going to happen? And I think he starts to get up to leave, and then he has a change of heart, and then of course then they just beat the crap out him.

Father. Please, oh young Sky, welco at you.

In a day we.

Get that moment with David Bruce Banner and he's got to get involved. Leave her alone, don't touch that woman. And then they throw him so hard that he knocks the loose one of the seats in the subway. Yeah, sin set maybe.

Let anyone who's ever been on the subway knows that those seats are bolted down within an inch of their lives. You couldn't move it unless you have to, I don't know, like a steam shovel or something. And they throw the guy right through it and it breaks like it's made of tissue paper. It's crazy.

There's gonna be a out of that kind of tissue paper breakage throughout the rest of the movie. Here we go. He emerges the actual star of the film, lou for Regno as the Hulk. Let me tell you something, HP. Now, I have loved all of the recent Marvel Hulk movies. I even like the look of the Hulk in that

No one does it better than Lou. He's fantastic, He has presence, you believe him as the Hulk. The weird thing was I always thought he kind of looked a little bit like Bill Bixby. I don't know, there was something was Maybe it's because they would have those transitional bits where they would have Bill Bixby have the green makeup on and then they kind of transitioned. But I always thought they were a good pairing in that way. But don't yeah.

Into commercial they would always show that freeze frame the half face half of the faces Bill Bixby half of the face as loof for rig Now that might have been imprinting on your mind. That's the same guy.

It's likely, but but he's he is the Hulk. I mean, he's not your you know Hulk from like four Ragnarok, who is you know, twelve feet tall and he can throw you through, you know, a building. But you know what, in the context of what's going on in this thing, it makes sense. You know, he's not he's he He is Bill Bickspeak, bigger, with a lot of muscles, and you know, he does his thing. He's great.

He's the best special effect in the movie.

Absolutely, which is the way. But that is a very low bar to get over, I will say, because this isn't really that's not the forte of this movie. But if there's any reason for me to watch this, lou for Igno as the Hulk is the reason, because everything goes to eleven when you see Forigno on screen.

This is the moment where I felt the pain of their budget restraint, because it occurred to me that if you were to just simply build Sense a little smaller in scale and have loof for Igno stand on them, they would achieve the same effect that they're getting from the CGI Hulks. It's a good point if they just spent a little more time thinking about forced perspective before they went and shot any of their Hulk scenes, which are we're talking minutes out of a ninety five minute movie.

There's this precious little Hulk in this So yeah, I think they actually forced perspective would have gone a long way to conveying his size. I think that's a really good point. But yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's the kid in me watching that TV show and always hoping that the Hulk would come out. But Luferegno will always be the Hulk.

To me, and he fucks these guys up. He takes the one prick, the redheaded guy who, by the way, every time I saw him, I kept thinking, why isn't Matt Murdoch's hair red. He throws that guy through the doors of the train. He then slides across the floor, knocking people over like ten pins before slamming into the wall. That man is dead.

If not dead, he would be severely disabled from you know, from all of that trauma to his body. But it has played a little bit for laughs, I.

Think it is. But apparently they're not dead because that they are actually the fucking crux of this plot. Somehow, these two low level goons.

And that was the surprising and really frustrating thing about this whole picture is it's not about Kingpin and his reign of cr in the city. It's not about him coming up with some elaborate caper. It's ultimately about the fact that these criminals harassed this poor woman and she is basically the mcguffin that sets the whole plot in motion because she can identify them. So now they're all

Hey keep using her for multiple purposes because first of all, they get to her and then convince her to change her story so that Bruce Banner, David Banner was the one who attacked her and the other guys were defending her, Okay, so they've got that going on. Bruce, by the way, is now in prison because he unhulked, and the police dragged him in and he doesn't remember where he was, so he's now on trial because of this woman's testimony

They are the source of all of this aggravation of Kingpin because if not for them, if they just escaped the crime scene in a very discreet and quiet manner, none of this would happen. This woman would have gotten to where she was going, Banner wouldn't have gotten involved, and there'd be no crisis.

The thing is, there could still be a crisis because he's still in prison and Matt Murdock has to get him out and he has to investigate Wilson Fisk and that organization because those guys were part of the organization and Matt k is already investigating him. That's fine. The fact that they have to have this damsel in distress, this fucking sinkhole of charisma as damsel in distress by

Yeah, I think the character actually not to say she has agency, which is always something I bring up. But she doesn't take any of this lying down. She is very vocal in her opposition to what's happening to her. But it also, honestly, this all paints the Kingpins organization in a very negative light because all they what they basically have to do initially is kill this woman, and they failed to do that, so then they kidnap the woman.

They're going to kill her, but thwarts that, so now they're going to kidnap her to lure Daredevil. Evidently the Daredevil has been such a problem in the city for Wilson Fisk that he is not he's being considered ineligible to join some worldwide criminal organization, and he just really wants to impress them. Now his plan is to capture and kill Daredevil. That should have been the plan from the beginning. I don't know why it suddenly comes after the nurse attack.

It's weird, but that could have been. The whole point behind the heist is maybe they're trying to lure Daredevil out of wherever he is and this is a pretext. There's a million different things that could have done to make it about Fisk versus Daredevil, but it just seems I don't know. It seems lazy to me, and very much like Kingpin is making up this plot as he goes along someone who's supposed to be like a mastermind, a criminal mastermind. I don't see a lot of that list picture.

Speaking of deviations from characters, Okay, let's talk Wilson Fisk, because that the fact that Wilson Fisk his first reaction isn't those bumbling fucking idiots. They nearly ruined everything, and they're continuing to ruin everything. Make them disappear. Nobody read a comic. They read a breakdown of a comic, is what that says to me. Okay, so Kingpin, we've had a few Kingpins over the ears. We've had pretty good kingpins over the ears. Is this a good kingpin? It's

No?

Does he have a beard yet?

And he's a big fan of the Oakley sunglasses that were super popular at that time of the eighties, like every like hose cansako, like baseball players used to wear those like blades, those ones I'm talking about where you see them there? That's and I said, Bixby loves shooting him his sunglasses so that they reflect something like very interesting, like a bank of monitors that he's looking at.

Or we're getting the techno kingpin here. He basically he has a bank of monitors. He during the criminal heist at the beginning, he's watching through all the cameras that they've set up and he's directing their every single move, total control. Freak.

Well, he's a voy year, Let's be honest.

He's a voy year in this right, and like you said, because he's always sitting in front of that bank of monitors, there's constant close ups of the fucking sunglasses with that bank of monitors. It's it's the most uninteresting shot that we get way too much of.

It's a bummer because we all love John Reyes Davies. How could you not the man just I'm going to use another metaphor, he's a poor man's Brian blessed right basically yeah, but.

And that'gine Brant blessed as the as Wilson Fisk shaved head fat. You can eat as much as you want, Brian for this role, go to town?

What would that have sounded like?

I'm not gonna do an impression.

Come on, you got it all right, I won't make you. But I was hoping for I knew just because my dim recollection that it wasn't very a very satisfying portrayal. Uh. And I wanted to like it.

The scare devil be like that.

I really wanted to because I love Rhees Davies so much. But it's not. It's not really Kingpin. It just doesn't. He's not street wise like Kingpin should be. He's a little too techno obsessed. He's not as hands on as I would expect because Kingpin is a tough dude. Kingpin can fuck you up. He can beat the shit out of you. I don't get the sense that this king I think this Kingpin hides behind those monitors in those sunglinves. That's basically my impression.

At what a missed opportunity in not doing force perspective for the Hull, because they could have done the exact same thing for Kingpin, reused the same sets, and then we could have at least had a couple of punches thrown between Fisk and fucking Hulk at the end because.

He basically no spoiler here if you're going to watch this, but he essentially escapes at the end, Kingpin and his second in command.

In a flying boat.

It's the worst special effect of the whole movie, quote unquote, And that's saying something. It's this sort of.

Movie filled with bad special effects. They save the worst for last for last.

But I guess that's just they were hoping to make this into its own series, And why wouldn't you have a Kingpin escape? I guess that would have been more satisfying.

My favorite character in the entire episode Deputy Chief Albert G. Tendelli, played by Joseph Muscalo, the one good cop in the city who's come to fucking clean up shit. He knows Fisk is behind this, and he's gonna fucking take him out.

What did I what I have known him from? He looked very familiar, but I didn't look him up.

He's that prick Peterson in Johns Too.

Oh yeah, Ellen, Maybe that's why when I first saw him in this I had this immediate reaction of I thought he was going to be a corrupt cop. But he's actually the one good cop of the bunch, So maybe that's maybe I just had a bad association from Jaws two.

He's like a really serious Joseph Bologna kind of Yeah. I loved that character. I was so happy he was there. It's the Commissioner Gordon type that just does it for me, particularly in our fucking current position in the world today. I like to see people with decency and fucking morals, and it was good to see the cop who stood up for what was right.

He was the guy behind the guy. He was a daredevil's confidant, right, he's the one who's feeding him information. I don't think they had cell phones. I think I don't remember the apparatus by which he gets ahold of him.

It didn't show us that he says, he always knew how to get in touch with me, and then they just cut to them meeting. But at the end they finally give it to us. You hear it. There's he just has like a CB.

Breaker breaker one nine.

Hey, this series, you got the Daredevil out there.

He was I agree, he was. It was nice to see a character like that in this and it gives you a little something more to root for as a viewer, you know, because the whole, like the whole notion is this. It's basically it's like the first Batman movie. This is

Okay, all right, now that the plan has changed, the assassination attempt has failed, They've now they've got to go kidnap her right, And this is my favorite sequence in the movie, where the woman has now reconsidered she now knows she needs protection. She calls Matt Murdoch at his office, tell us him I'm in the secure wing. Could you come meet me. Yes, I'm on my way, and then hangs up. And then she says to the cop in the room who's watching her, I'll need to be alone

Well, weren't they implying that cop was also one of Kingpin's guys too.

The cop there's a good cop, a female cop with her, and then she leaves another cop in charge, and then that's the cop basically spirits her away. But the female cop should have said, yeah, you can have all the time you want with him when he arrives. I'll be right here till then. And when he arrives, I'll be on the other side of that door watching Not very secure at all, I'll need to be alone with him. Yeah when he arrives, dummy.

But alas Daredevil arrives a little too late, and she's to your point, she's been spirited away by Kingpin's confederates. I think at this point is when Murdoch tries to browbeat David Banner into taking the stand to basically to tell what really happened, so that he can be that

My favorite part of this sequence is the defense attorney. Yeah, they're reshuffling his papers over and over again until the fucking Hulk descends on him, and then the Hulk grabs him by the throat and like leans in and I was waiting for his head to burst. I wish he When they cut to Banner waking up, we had gotten this like a splosh kind of sploshy sound effect.

Because that is like he's on the cusp of killing this guy with his bare hands by choking him. But it is. But I did think it was rather amusing that through this whole sequence, the Hulk is just you know, waylaying everything in this courtroom. But the defense attorney just keeps opening and closing his briefcase or his like note like he has like a little like brief.

Notes together and then put them in the briefcase. It's like, man, those will be there when you get back run.

I'd be jumping out the window to get away from this crazy green goliath, but he just can't. These papers are very important.

Apparently the Kingpin is trying to kill Bruce David Banner

Like a spik. It's a spike that's shaped like the number seven with a sharp end on the long part.

As dumb as that is, they've got this fucking guy with a mop bucket slowly moving it down. They sell Block doing this like he's just singing, but he's like, we don't have the rights to any song because so could you just sing something? And so it's a lot of it's I could not wait for the scene, and I wanted them to kill Banner meant that the scene could end.

That was the actual moment where he's almost killed, I admit, and actually, for a second it took my breath away because what's happened is the banners on the top bunk. On the lower bunk is this sort of nebishy looking prisoner who's taken ownership of this spike to kill Banner, And what he's going to do effectively is basically shove the spike through the bottom of Banner's bed and stab him. And just as he pushes the spike through, a guard comes to retrieve Banner to talk to this the one

It was a good gang. But all I kept thinking was, had that little nebishy guy actually pierced Banner's flash and I don't know, struck into it one of his shoulder blades or something that he wouldn't have gotten far, and then Banner would have hulked out and fucking destroyed that man.

Oh easily. That would have been the last thing that guy ever did.

All right, help breaks out of prison where they don't show the destruction, but then we get the after effect with all the bars bent, which just made me think that they took one of the doors if they had like in stock and bent all the bars in and then brought it to the prison and just installed it like there it is. Look he escaped.

That's a lot of guys going, oh, look at all this damage. They're leaving it up to the viewer to imagine how he actually escaped, And all we're seeing, like you said, is the twisted bars and the mangled door based.

The same radio. Baby, it's television. He's breaking those bars over there. Do you see that?

I do. But at this point he I don't remember exactly, but he basically gets back in touch with Daredevil, because now they've kidnapped this woman. They're using her as bait to have Daredevil come and they Daredevil and Bruce or David, I should say, collude to figure out how they're going to hatch this plan, which I think basically involves Daredevil running in and Bruce hanging back.

Just in case the plan is at all's let's go there and then I don't know, you wait here. Maybe I'll run in there. Okay, I'm gonna get this kicked out of me. But are you doing anything back there? Bruce? You want to maybe hulk out a little.

But unbeknownst to Daredevil, Kingpin has rigged this woman in this room that she's being held in with like screechers and bright lights and thirty henchmen that are just waiting to beat him senseless.

Basically right now, he's going to have video proof to prove to all of the Triads or the Order or the I don't know what.

What was the Maggia. The Maggia m a Ggia was one of the criminal organizations.

My god, so silly. Yeah, Daredevil walks right into this trap, gets his ass handed to him. Hulk does nothing until the last they've absconded with the girl. I thought this was going to be the finale. I think we were three quarters the way through the movie at this point. First of all, this is the quickest change back to Banner of all time, Like if he could, if he can come back to sanity this quickly, then I don't

Because earlier, when he's having a conversation with Banner, he says to him, can I take your picture? And Banner's like, what are you talking about? And that's when he puts his hands on his face to recognize what he looks like. So that leads to that scene you're describing, where he can wish the ul.

I wish Banner had said, don't call it that. You were cited once. What a photograph is? That's not You're just touching my face. Don't call it a photograph anyway.

So now a devil's been taken down a few pegs. He's lost faith in himself because he's this is the first time he's been soundly defeated, and he doesn't he's afraid of what might happen. So it's up to David to convince him a woman's life is in danger. Here buster, Oh.

How the browbeaten roles have changed.

But meanwhile, by the way, David is still an escapee from prison. But never do we hear or see any dragnets being underway to bring this fugitive, this dangerous individual back to prison. It it's almost if they just kind of shrugged and said, all right, that's fine.

Would in the first place, they look be the only contact the man has in the city, his attorney, the one who has been so vociferously trying to get him out of prison.

They just, like I said, they can't be bothered with it. Let's move let's move this movie along.

That's right. They gotta get there. He's got to get out of that beard, thank god.

Finally, Yeah, because the whole up to this point, he's had this the worst beard ever. And there's no it's not an effective disguise because you look at him, his hair is still the same. He looks the same. He's Bruce Banner, he's David Banner with a beard, but there's no mistaking who he is at that point. But yes, he does shave the beard at that point to escape the By.

Then we've had a couple of Hulk outs and no Hulk beard. Total missed opportunity.

That's a very good point. What would the Hulk look like with a beard?

And they made his hair green when they gave him that jeth throw wig. The only unfortunate part of The Incredible Hulk is the Hulk's jethrow wig. But imagine that hair also spouting throw his face just as crazily like a parody of zz top.

That is a great description of his hair. I never thought of it like that, but you're right. That was one of the One of the funny parts of The Incredible Hulk Returns is Thor is fascinated by the Hulk, and he keeps he doesn't call him the Hulk, he keeps calling him the green Troll. Come on, troll, let's get him. I thought that was really funny that you know, that's his frame of reference for what the Hulk is. He's of course, he's a green troll. That's what Boor knows,

We got to get this girl. We got to get her, Ellie Mendez. You got to save her. Why I don't know anymore.

They've brought her back to Fisk's tower. Now she's being kept in this beautiful room with a huge bed with satin sheets.

Oh my, Now, we haven't talked about this fucking guy yet. Oh.

He is the second in command of the Kingpin who has like a soft spot for Ellie Mendez.

Edgar is that his name? I believe. So talk about missed opportunities. So what we end up getting here is Finsk basically says kill the woman to his right hand Edgar. Edgar lives with the Kingpin, by the way, because when he comes out one night and gets a lesson from the Kingpin, he's in like his bathrobe, Like, what's going on out here? Oh, go back to sleep, Go back

Bye. There's no arc to this poor woman's sort of journey that she doesn't even have clothes for the majority of this picture, she's always she's in the hospital. She's in like a neglige, and I think that's what she's wearing for the rest of the movie.

Basically, it's a nightgown.

It's not a nightgown, Okay, A neglige implies it's.

Your mommy were in the nineteen eighties. It's not Playboy Bunny of the week.

It's not. But my point is like they couldn't at least give this poor woman some clothes while she's being put in held under duress. She's and then she's got henchman here, henchman there, hitting on her like she's the most desirable woman that they've ever seen. It's bizarre.

She's not that attractive, including that fucking redheaded prick who just shows back up again to be a menace.

Oh, the guy who should have been dead, Yeah, the.

One was he was through subway car doors. Yeah, that guy.

I think they gave him a little bit of makeup around his nose to make it look like he had a black eye.

Yeah, that's pretty much. It like a white bandage on his forehead, like just a little taped on there. Oh okay, sure he recovered.

So he pops up again like the prototypical bad penny, and then he is he basically is forcing Edgar to suffocate her with a pillow. It's all very weird.

He says, catch her screams, make sure you catch all of them, And that was a great line, and that was actually really chilling.

Every time someone gives the order to kill this woman, it's got to go through miles and miles of red tape until it actually can finally happen.

It's weird, and the last person they picked to deliver the message is either Daredevil or the Hulk.

So while this is all happening, David is finally or David Banner has finally convinced Daredevil that hey, you owe to this woman. You've got to do it. I think they somehow convey that because all of a sudden, Daredevil has the strength to exercise again, Like he has those Olympic rings, which is supposed to indicate how strong he is, and the last shot of him lifting himself up on the rings, giving you this idea that he's back.

And actually show that your mind filled that in. He looks up at the rings and then they show two hands grab the rings.

You're right, well, maybe the direction was pretty good, after all, I filled in those those gaps myself.

I guess the direction was that bad that you had to fill in something as simple as what should have been him struggling on those rings.

So now their plan is that they're going to infiltrate this tower, the Fisk Tower, which I think is like the tallest building in the city. I don't know how they're going to do this where it's Daredevil can do it because he's Daredevil. But I mean, David Banner is just the guy unless he's the Hulk.

That's the thing, Like, wouldn't you just go here, David? We're about to go in here. Do you mind if I just stab you for a second? Hold on, ah, there's the Hulk. Let's go Hulk.

Well, at one point, when I think it's when they take out the redheaded creep, he's got a gun and instead of if I were David Banner, I would have picked up that gun and said, right, I get a weapon now. But he kicks it away like they do and bad police procedurals. I'm like, what are you kicking that away for? Someone's going to pick that up and use it against you.

He's not worried. He can just turn into the Hulk.

But that he can't turn into the Hulk faster than a speeding bullet can reach him.

Though. It doesn't make any sense what he's even doing in there. It's crazy. It's like how they got as far as by the way, the big organization, the criminal Mastermind organization is here. They're in Fisk Tower, this is the day of the big presentation to let them that they've killed Daredevil and they're totally ready to join that league.

I forgot about that part, yeah, because that's the whole deal is he wants to show how strong he is, so he has them all.

Would Fisk security be there, but every group who is in that meeting of their security would be there. But somehow Banner and Murdoch just waltz in through the building and just start heading up the stairs. Fisk is showing the presentation. Look, here's a video of him being beaten on the ground, and it's a The organization is peopled entirely with old white men in suits, right, so he's look,

You would figure that they would have their own security if they're not gonna they're criminals, they don't trust anybody, so why wouldn't they at least have one or two guys with them saying, look, I know you say this is a secure tower w FISK, but I'm not taking any chances.

I want my.

Best guys with me with guns. But there's none of that. These guys all feel perfectly safe in this building.

And all of the none of our villains have any personality. They're all dressed exactly the same. They're all just in black suits with black ties, and they pose is zero thread at all to anybody, except for that one scene where they had to have Daredevil beaten up.

But that's a big reason why I think having Daredevil dressed all in black for his outfit. It's terrible because the movie itself is dark to begin with. It's shot on a video it looks like crap. It's hard to see what's going on. The action scenes are shot poorly, like you said earlier, So that's why you'd want to have your hero, your superhero, dressed in something a little more bright and garish. So they pop, they stick out, and you really they add a layer of excitement to

It's just a confusion of black suited people, except one of them looks like they're wearing blue blockers underneath their mask that's pulled down.

The direction is a real bummer for me because I guess I was really pulling for Bill Bixby, knowing that this was the first time that he had the reins of one of these productions. So I wanted to believe that having been a working actor in Hollywood since forever, the sixties or whatever, that he would have learned a thing or two and maybe there was some untapped talent there, because I don't know. Do you know if he directed anything else prior to.

This Room two two too? The magician Mannix Barbary Coast Kate McShane. He's a very workmanlike television director Charlie's Angels, The Oregon Trail. Did he die of dysentery?

Yeah, I don't know why this was. He has plenty of credits. You would figure that he would have learned a thing or two. He would have maybe had some interesting concepts, things to apply to as a director, But I see none of that here, and it was really it was a bummer because I wanted it to be well directed, if nothing directly.

It's thirty episodes of Blossom.

Wow. I thought he passed a lot sooner than that. But I guess was it ninety four I think is when he died ninety three ninety three Love American Style?

Or was he the last film was The Woman Who Loved Elvis starring Tom Arnold and Roseanne.

That's the last thing he directed.

Yeah. Wow, Yeah, that's really sad.

That is really sad. But at the same time, I think there's nothing wrong with somebody being a working TV director. But it's not like he could necessarily pick and choose everything that he wanted to do. I guess there's merit to that. I just wish in this case. I can't speak for his other other things that he's directed, but in this case it was so inept and just so disheart to see because it should have He's David Banner, the guy should have understood what makes a good Hulk teleplay.

Work, Like, how about you have the Hulk in your finale at the end of this movie.

I keep talking about it, but not that the incredible Hulk returns was this magnum opus. But there was more action. It was more fun to watch, and it wasn't as I don't know, it wasn't as nonsensical as this was. I think I might be misremembering. I'll revisit it as well. I could be wrong. I could be just thinking about it with rose colored glasses. But this was a bummer. The bottom line is the direction of this was kind of a bummer. I wanted it to be better.

And just a cherry on the cake. We mentioned it. Kingpin escapes with his pal who defied him and tried to keep that girl in a boat with an air propeller. Boat is what it is. That is supposed to be a hovercraft of some kind, So it's the sequence. First of all, look the visual effect we eventually get of the model of a boat flying through the city. That's ridiculous.

It was a bummer. There's no satisfying climax to any of this. I'm fine with the idea that Kingpin escapes. That gives you a cliffhanger that you can hang your perspective back door pilot on. But yeah, it was it should have. If you have the Hulk, if you have somebody like the Hulk, like a loof for Rigno, why wouldn't you have a real climactic fight, have him go toe to toe with Fisk. Maybe Fisk has a secret weapon that he has to go up against. Maybe I don't know, techno.

Just give him some sort of mech suit.

Yeah, that's what I'm That's what I'm saying. It's just such a missed opportunity here.

I did have a good time watching this. I do think that Rex Smith is a better actor than I gave him any credits for. I do think Luf Forigno was a fucking amazing Hulk, and I liked.

Bill bicks Amen to all of those things. I came into this just like you said, I wasn't really looking forward because my memory of it wasn't all that positive. And although a lot of that was born out, I was pleasantly surprised by, like you said, by Rex Smith, by how nice it was to see Luf Forregno doing his thing. It's nothing that I'm eager to revisit anytime soon, but I was happy to watch.

It, and it hearkens back to a time when the Hulk was a monster of rage who was uncontrollable and just fucked shit up. And that's what we loved about him, that that.

Was his defining characteristic. That's why having him have banners intellect in the Avengers movies was It's an interesting choice. But do we really need a brainy, smart Hulk or do we really want that uncontrolled rage monster.

I think we can have both. We can well, sir, there are many Hulks out there now. We've got a she Hulk, We've got a Red Hulk, got a regular Hulk. We're gonna have all sorts of Hulks. Once we get to Battle World, it's going to be Hulk City. Man Hulk has a sun and that.

Would be very cool. But I think maybe something is a little lost when you don't have that angry Hulk just with unreasoning rage, because there's something dangerous about him, and there's something I don't know, endearing about the Banner's dilemma. I think when you defang the Hulk, I think maybe something's lost.

I would love to take one of the episodes of the television series and rewrite it in a modern setting with modern values. I think any episode chosen would basically be Banner gets kicked around for forty five minutes, the Hulk hulks out and destroys the entire town, and then he moves on.

He's this agent of a murder and death. He's like the Grim Reaper. He comes to your town and that's the Hulk Man.

And you know they've started shit with him there, so that's what turned him into the Hulk. And then they're just going to keep coming at him they always do at the end of every episode. But he's not going to just run for the hills at the end. He's going to fucking destroy everything in sight.

There was a comic, a series of comics called Grand Design that Marvel put out. They did one for the X Men. They did one for Fantastic Four, and they also did one for The Hulk, and basically what they are that were limited series that are trying to put the entire history of that character into context. Right, because when you think about it, the X Men, their history from like the sixties till now is crazy. So the idea of making sense of it and giving it a

Interesting, baited into usefulness for them.

That's when he's not being pushed into rage. He's being used to further someone else's agenda, usually with disastrous consequences for the Hulk.

It's a great book, really good book that sounds like it would make a really good movie. Marvel anyway, HP, when you're not here talking about I don't know how we even Oh, we ended up here because of the Daredevil sort of crossover. But this is weird. I can't even call this an anthologies attack. This is straight up midnight doing anyway, HP, when you're not here helping me talk about Daredevil in all of his guyses. Where can people find you?

You can find me. I am the co host of The Night Mister Walters, a taxi podcast with my esteemed co host Father Malone, getting prepped for season three. Lookout for that. I'm also in a case I also excuse me. I also produce the Noise Junkies music podcast that's been going well. Check that out. I also am an occasional guest of the Culture Asked with Chris Dashu and if that weren't enough. I have a bandcampsite hpmusicplaces dot bandcamp dot com. I've just released a new album called Wired

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