Fusco Fest - Young Guns II

We're in wait.

Exist sis, welcome back to Midnight Viewing. I am your host father alone and joining me once again, all the way from Noise Junkies, all the way from the Sunshine Cab Company.

Mister HP, how are you, HP?

I'm doing great, man, this is We're on a roll.

Yeah, you said it. This is an unexpected film festival. HP and I found ourselves mutual lovers of the film Crossroads, and then in discussing that, we discovered we kind of like everything mister John Fusco has written. So here we go. This is actually our third film in the series. We're going in chronological order. So we took Crossroads, followed immediately by Young Guns, followed now by Young Guns too.

It is therefore considered by the Court that will you each bunny be had till he be dead?

Dead dead, You can go to hell, Hell, Hell, You're gonna start at amigos.

You're not dead. Do I look dead?

The entire country is reading about our territory every day in the journals. Should give him a proper burial, and they're not reading about our growth towards statehood.

I never stole a horse from someone and didn't like you.

Just kill him.

What they are reading about is a twenty one year old delinquent.

What's come? Who is making us look like imbeciles?

Politicians, bankers, cattle kings.

Let's come, I got eighteen dimes in each barrel. Boy, you're starting to believe it.

There ain't about you.

You rode a fifteen year old boy straight into his grave. Best already, Iris B.

And the rest of us straight to hell.

I don't take to tenderfoots in my gang.

And ain't your game, Dave.

It's how you're a chief.

One thousand dollars, mister Garrett to catch one and all the resources you need to carry out the extermination, just playing the game, Doc, defy one, William, pay your money, even their horses are crazy, and then the game on.

Us.

We're gonna get out of here, Dave. It's your gang.

Oh my dang, it's your gang.

It's always been your jang.

Emilio Estevez, Keeper Sutherland, Lou Diamond, Phillips, Christian Slater, Balthazar Gemmy, Alan Ruck, James Coburn, and William Peterson. As Pat Garrett, you, I'll make you famous, young guns too, HP if you were to come up with a subtitle for our Young Guns too?

What might you have decided on a subtitle?

Young Guns two? Way better than the first one? I don't know. You caught me off guard there, what would your could? I think you? I think this is a rhetorical question. You've asked me because you have a subtitle in mind. So why don't you tell me your subtitle?

Well? I think the natural one would be Blaze of Glory? Correct, that's true?

What was there?

Was?

There was an original subtitle to this movie?

I actually there is, as much as it would make sense because of the popular song by John bon Jovi, The actual subtitle for this film is hell Bent for Leather.

That's it.

Yeah, they chose not to use it. Now, that's a phrase I've always loved. I remember it being used by Martini Ranch in their song Reach, remember Bill Paxton's new wave band from the mid eighties with that video directed by Jim Cameron.

One as.

I can see. But when I think of hell Bend for Leather, I think of Judas Priest and I don't. But there's not much of an association between Young Guns and Judas Priest Rob Halford, So I'm glad they didn't. I mean young Guns too, is it's not especially interesting? Blaze of Glory? I think you're right, would have probably been the best alternate subtitle for the movie. I think that works beautifully.

Well. Here's the thing, hell bend for leather? What does

That would have made sense. But in my little tiny brain I still would have seen Rob Halford riding out onto a stage on a motorcycle with his leather garb olpent alf Lenna.

Albent.

So it still would have been a little bit of friction there in my mind. But I love your explanation of the etymology of the term.

I never knew that is there any more or less friction that than the association with Academy Award nominated song Blaze of Glory by Popular Heavy Metal question Mark Remember when the question was still in the air. Is he a heavy metal guy?

No? Not one hundred percent, No, he's I mean, I hate the term hair metal because that's it just seems so much more reductive and it conjures up images of one hit wonders.

We're just talking about poison when we say hair metal pretty much glamb metal.

But I would call I would think bon Jovi's more in like pop metal, because it's the thing about heavy metal is that everything is dominated and driven by the guitars, right the riff, Whereas I would submit that bon Jovi and their ilk it's more about the vocal harmonies and the vocal melodies. Right. When you think of a song like Wanted Dead or Alive, you're not necessarily thinking of the guitars. First, you're thinking of the melody. The singing is so strong in the chorus, so I think that's

Well second to that. Now, before we go any further with young Guns too, I do have to address one thing that I forgot to mention when we talked about young Guns. This is absolutely germane to nothing to do with the film or the filmmakers or anything. Just a

Yeahe was that someone I knew. Was that someone I knew?

Now you didn't know him, okay.

I was searching back through our shared friends. I couldn't think of anyone who would do that, But that's pretty funny.

Released on August the first nineteen ninety Darring, Emilio Estevez, Keiper Sutherland, Lou Diamond, Phillips, Christian Slater, William Peterson, Alan ruck My god, it's a murderer's a row. I thought the first movie had a cast Alan Ruck, our d call James Coburn, Balthas Argetti, Jack Keith, Robert Knepper, Vigo Mortensen, and Bradley Whitford. Oh and Scott Wilson as Governor Lewis Wallace. By the way, Governor Lou Wallace, of course wrote Ben Hur a fine tradition in the Wallace family of being

Unlike the first movie, this one I saw in the theater, which it's interesting when you talk about the box office gross it. We live kind of in a time where if a movie like a Marvel movie, doesn't gross five hundred trillion dollars, then it's not a success. So when you say it like that that it sounds like a modest success. But at the time, if memory serves, it was very much in the cultural zeitgeist because the bon Jovie song Blaze of Glory was all over MTV. It

Before we go further, we mentioned the cast, but I want to also mention the filmmakers. Obviously, John f wrote this one. He wrote the first one. This one not directed by the first film's filmmaker. This one is directed

Agreed for me, this movie seems more vibrant, more widescreen. For lack of a better term, it's the first movie might have been more authentic in tone and story. We talked about how accurate it was seen back when it came out, but this one is more of a classic film Western. I read interviews, heard interviews with Estevez where he said he wanted it to be more like the westerns that he grew up with, and he felt the first movie didn't quite measure up in those terms. So

I think including old Billy the Kid as his own stories narrator not only allows for a grander canvas of the story to be told, but it taps back into what I like about Westerns to begin with, which is the idea of tales told around a campfire. It is

It's so good. It's easy to see cause I another thing I gathered in my research was that the director wasn't entirely sure if they should use Estevez in the makeup or go with an old man, because he didn't know if he could pull it off. But by god, when you see him in that old age makeup, it's he is unrecognizable as the young vital Emelio Estaves. It's so it's such an amazing makeup job.

And here's why they needed Emilio Estavis in the role, because the only thing that's going to betray it is the voice. Because the makeup is so fucking good and his voice is so great. I forget how much he narrates in the movie and how much I enjoy it, and it particularly what I enjoy is that this is a standalone movie. It's the Young Guns too, But there is absolutely zero necessity. Two of you have seen any of the first film, and that's in large part thanks

That's true, I mean it can only I mean it'll enrich your experience if you're familiar, because obviously he's reintroducing you to Doc Scurlock and shot. So it's great. But you're right, it is kind of its own self contained story, and you're not going to have a trouble following the movie if you don't. If you haven't seen the first one, it can. It works on its own.

So what do you think was Brushy Bill Roberts actually William H. Bonnie? Did Patrick Garrant shoot another man entirely in the presence of McIntyre? And what's say John W. Poe? John W. Poe was sent to have they were the only two witnesses to the actual shooting of Billy the Kid, And it was in a darkened room. And John W. Poe is said to have said, immediately following, you shot the wrong man.

It's certainly possible. I mean the I guess when he pleaded his case, there were still some surviving associates of Billy the Kid that testified on his behalf, saying, yes, this is the actual Billy the Kid. If nothing else, it makes for our wonderful kind of little myth. What was he or wasn't he? It could be. I if you're asking what I personally believe, and I'm someone who likes myths, I think there's a good chance that he was the actual Billy the Kid. I mean, who's to say?

I want it so badly to be true. However, one witness said that Brushy Bill Roberts was illiterate and he knew Billy the Kid, and Billy the Kid could read and write.

Well, it's interesting. I didn't know that part.

And he said Billy was more than functional with Spanish. And they said Brushy Bill Roberts could basically string a few words together. I don't know.

I wonder what Fusco believes. Has he ever talked about whether he believes that it's true or not, because it's an interesting question that he poses.

I have not spoken to him about that. But hey, everybody, we have spoken to John Fusco. He's apparently the well we're fans of his. Is he listening to the show? I don't know if he is. Hi, John, mister Fusco, I don't mean to be familiar with you, but we have spoken to him. He referred to us as and I'm going to take that to the grave.

That's amazing. Thank you so much for the support. John, appreciate it. If you're listening, of course. But yeah, I think it's certainly possible. I don't know. It's a little sad. I mean, he died not long after he pled his case to the governor.

Right not long after he was denied the case by the governor.

Certainly, I just I think it's a brilliant It's a brilliant device by Fusco to add that rap around story because, like you said, and enriches the storytelling altogether.

We'll get to William Paterson because there's a lot to talk about when it comes to Patrick Floyd Garrett. Let's

He was probably never bigger than he was at this point father alone, because he had already done heav which was star making, especially for people of our age. I probably saw Heather's five times in the theater. I loved it. He was about to have Pump Up the Volume released,

They end up trying to pain him as a bit ineffectual, but because it's Christian Slater, he seems to be an actual contender for leadership of that gang. It's as you said, he seems to have moved effortlessly into this film. He seems like he's always been there, like he was part of the Lincoln County War that we somehow never saw and just flushed with confidence. It's kind of crazy. He's just a movie star effectively, but at the same time

That's one thing that I wanted to ask you about because Dirty Steve, as we talked about in the previous episode of Young Guns, he is portrayed in the movie as the dirtiest, smellius, most disgusting, and cowboy. And it's my understanding that Dave Ruteba was supposed to be every bit as filthy who refused he had an aversion to water,

I understand that he was also known as dirty Dave Rudabah, but I've heard that was applied after his death, so it's not just sour grapes on some people's parts. Oh you know what else about him? He never bathed, Yeah, that Dave Rudeball. He never bathed. He was an Arkansas David, but he was dirty Dave Rudba so good, by the way, HP, Before we go any further, I do three impressions. One of them is in this film, are you ready ready? A should get one hundred dollgies for his trigger finger.

You do a pretty good Owen Wilson too. I will say that.

I don't do it. Owen Wilson.

You do wow.

Yeah, but everyone does Wow. That's not I don't count that as one of my three impressions. One of them is a guy who dies first in Young Guns.

He is literally the first guy shot by Billy.

Okay, so that's that's the mister Christian Slater. Now before we get to William Peterson as Patrick Floyd Garrett Alan Ruck as William Hendry French so good.

So the name is great too, Hendry William French. He just sounds like such a in their parlance, a tenderfoot, but he is so he has this wonderful hangdog quality that really adds a lot to the picture, because this picture doesn't suffer for a lack of confidence in charisma with all the leads. And Hendry comes in because they're trying to raise men to form another gang so they can kind of complete this this trek. And he's the

He's a farmer, he has absolutely no business being with these men. Yeah, but you know what, this is part of the Old West. These are part of the cowboys. We've been mythologizing, and here's part of the greatest mythology. A cowboy telling his own story, and even he can't skimp over the fact that there were a lot of desperate human beings back then, and I think nobody embodies that better than Alan Ruck. He better than anyone in

But he's so redeemable. I mean, he basically, spoiler alert, helps save Chavez at the end of those Chavez meets his own maker, but there's a scene where him and Chavez riding away and he's trying to keep Chavez going even though Chavez has died moment by moment, and I just there's a really likable quality to Alan Ruck that I think shines through really well in this picture.

Absolutely, he doesn't need a nickname anymore, thank you. Now

He was much more of a contemporary of Billy than this wide eyed knafe that gets caught up in the gang and meets his an untimely end. He was, he was a young man, let's.

Say, indeed he was. Well, they look gonna get some fictional fictionalization here in the In this retelling of the story Jack Keejo HP, I love Jack Keejo. Okay, it's awesome.

He's the bookkeeper mcdonnuts.

In Midnight Run, Jack Kehoe is the Joey Pants the He's the mole who keeps reporting to the mob all of Robert De Niro's movements throughout the United States. And my fucking god, he's in one of the greatest scenes in cinema history, Brian de Palma's owed to the Battleshipican on the step scene at the end of Untouchables. He's the bookkeeper.

So good, so good. Jack Keijo is great in this. I forgot how great he is. I don't. I can't speak to the veracity of the care character or any of that, but he's comic relief. He's funny, and he lightens up because he's effectively part of the group led by Peck Garrett to try and track down Billy and bring him to justice and Pat Garrett.

Pat Garrett, recognizing the effortlessness with which Billy has achieved fame, needs to do it himself and so hires his own biographer. Once again, just Fusco like pulling in all of the myth and the storytelling and the self mythologizing that's going on here in the Old West that we're still feeling to this day.

It's a great little character bit because Pat Garrett's not above a little bit of self aggrandizing of his own. He wants, he knows that this is this could be an important story. He wants to burnish his own legends. So yeah, he hires his own biographer to come in. But he's again, in the parlance of the characters, he's the tenderest foot of the bunch. He can't ride for a mile without having to. He called take a movement, basically take a shit.

It's on top of a horse now for the first time in his life, basically for any length of time. I bet he rode in a wagon to get to his little office.

Yeah, but he's really good. Everybody. I could say this about everybody, but he's fantastic.

Now, before we get to the genius of William Peterson, that is Patrick Floyd Garrett, Vigo Mortensen. This was my first experience with Viego Martinson. I'm sure it was yours. Now when we want we talked about young guns. I mentioned that as a kid, I thought that the dirty Steve character was the one I was drawn to most because it felt like the most realistic of the cowboy characters presented to us in this film. It was John W.

He's so he's a great counterpoint to Pat Garrett because there's this doubt in your mind as to whether Pat Garrett is actually really going after Billy or if he's letting him on a slip away and out of friendship. I know the friendship was kind of invented for the movie. But Poe is the one who calls out Pat Garrett and says, what are you doing? He'll be long gone? Are you sure you want to get this guy? You know what? You're just leading this on a wild goose chase.

Lying there dying, take your medicine, son? That is a historically accurate line of standing it portrayed in other films. I believe it's in also in Pat Garrett and Believe the Kid, where John deby Poe's portrayed much more of a brutish character, just like a leg breaker. Almost here he seems like a man of letters who has found himself out there. And yes, he definitely is the actual law man. It seems here Pat Garrett is more interested

I mean probably. I mean, but it's let's talk a little bit about William Peterson. Like I we.

Mentioned, we're not getting to William Peterson, the genius of William Peterson as Patrick Floyd Garrett yet, because we have to talk about they're fucking huge, fucking cast member in

Well he if Fusco even writes a line for Coburn that is a direct callback to Pack Arrett and Billy the Kid. When so Billy goes to the Chisholm ranch basically trying to shake him down for money so they can go down to Mexico, and Chisholm just says, basically tells him to go fuck off. But the line I'm gonna paraphrase it is something to the effect of you can take that and shove it up your ass and set fire to it. That's literally what he said as

Come on, everything he says is so fucking fantastic in this movie. Don't you do it, Billy, your billy, the kid too duck and you shut it? And you guy, I don't know you all are I am New Mexico.

You gotta cut you gotta cut that in. That's so good his sonorous voice.

I'll put in his whole scene here. It's so fucking good.

Man.

He's fucking electric everything he does. He's just so magnetic. I could watch James Cober do anything. Remember in like Flint, Remember the fucking Flint movies. Holy shit, man, you.

Just killed yourself.

Fannie, who you are?

Who you called yourself? The scourge of New Mexico. Word by god, I have New Mexico and you are dead.

He did a movie with James Brolan called High Risk. Did you ever see that? It's a good movie. It was I think it was nineteen eighty. He was so James Brolan is basically with a bunch of his buddies, and I think they've lost their jobs, they don't have

And the character of John Chisholm is sorely missed in the first Young Guns movie. But if you have to wait, it's worth waiting for James Cobern.

Well he was. Chisholm was like an ally of Tunstall, right.

Yeah, that's what I mean. That's why they're able to come up on him at all. That's why he's able to be familiar as he is with them. I mean, but Billy is with Chisholm because they were partners at one point basically except you're right, said Billy the Kid in this timeline in these films was a fucking psychopath who just went around shooting everybody when they were supposed to be bringing justice.

Well it again, we said this about the first movie. Billy the Kid is nothing less than a lou cannon that everybody is afraid of including the members of his own gang because they never know what I mean. This movie, he's a little more sensitive. I think that's a deliberate attempt to make him a little more relatable and more vulnerable.

The two fucking lunatics in the fucking gang are just working together because Doc Scurlock wasn't going to do that, nor was Chevez.

Yeah, because there again, those two are the most damaged from the events of the first movie. They may be happy that Billy rescued them from the pit and Lincoln where they were going to be hanged, but beyond that, they still know they know Billy, They've seen what he can do, what he's capable of.

Okay, so before we get to the magnificence that is William Peterson as Patrick Floyd Garrett HP, let's talk about where our characters are as this movie starts. Now, Chevez when we meet him, he's in jail, right, That's where we meet him. He's been captured. We don't know what he's been up to all these years. The main character that we've returned to here is of course just I it Doc Skurlock, who we find is now a teacher in New York City all the way across the United States.

He's teaching them their letters. He looks like a perfectly wonderful teacher. He's like a dandee. Basically, he's dressed in a nice suit. Apparently he got married with a woman from the first picture and they have a child. Now he's settled down.

And they fucking drag him back because Governor lou Wallace wants to settle all the debts from the Lincoln County War. Basically, he wants Billy the Kid because Billy the Kid is out there making too much of a name for himself, all that fame we mentioned, and that has to stop. So they're going to put everyone on trial, and no matter where they are and who, they have to pull back. So they pull back Josiah, they pull back Chevenz, and

I mean, it's William fucking Peterson to live in Die In La. I mean, you don't get any cooler than that he plays. Look, I mentioned that in the previous episode that Pat Garrett is in the first movie. It's not William Peterson though, it's Patrick Wayne, John Wayne's son, and it's not a very he appears twice in the movie. It's very small, but he wouldn't have pulled off what William Peterson can pull off in this movie. You have to believe in the bond between Billy and Pat Garrett.

This Yeah, because we see the outlaw, and we see the guy who just wants to fucking settle down and have a normal life. And we see the best friend of this kid he's kind of taken under his wing and had adventures with and we see the guy who fucking doesn't give a shit about this kid because the kid won't shut up and won't fucking do as he's told. He needs to calm down and just leave for a while.

And it would be easy for us to dislike Pat Garrett because he's the one who's trying to kill the protagonist, the one that we are supposed to be rooting for. We're supposed to root for Billy to get down below and make it to New Mexico or to make New Mexico. But Peterson is so likable, and it's you can't help but kind of root for him too, even though he's basically doing the government's dirty work to try and take out Billy, because he's making too big of a name

We don't.

But that's probably the best thing for me about his performance is that even when he's doing things that we don't like or support, he does some pretty awful things in the name of the law, in the name of his mission, but you still can't help liking the guy because he's so damn good in this role.

Yeah, this is a character who I'm rooting for. I shouldn't be. So he's the antagonist, he's the villain of the piece, and even if he's even if this is like the Wild Bunch sort of a situation where you know, the former comrade is leading the posse against his old army buddies, which is kind of what this is, or that Wild Bunch basically stole that concept.

Billy is an anti hero, right, so you're supposed to be rooting for him, but we're not what we are.

But it's That's what's so fucking good about this script. That's so good about this fucking movie is that I'm

He can't contain himself when he finally rescues Doc and Chavez from the pit, pretending to be a lynch mob. Right, he can't contain himself. He's so happy to see his old writing buddies. The following scene, where all he's supposed to be doing is shooting Doc Spurlock's chain his handcuffs so that he can be free, he can't stop. He's like, damn it, it's good to see you, Doc, I'm so happy to see you guys. And Doc's just can you

There's something to be said about enthusiasm. If a character is a bit joyful and enthusiastic, I'm pretty much gonna follow them no matter what they're doing. It's the ed Wood phenomenon. I think they it doesn't matter what the product is, just so long as they're totally committed and having a great time. And Billy is never having a better time than he is right in this scene, and that the sort of banter and repartape between these guys, it feels so familiar. It feels like they've known each

Oh yeah?

Yeah, great man? He looks like that. I thought his portrayal of Billy in the first film was, like I said, it was my favorite of that up until this. But for some reason, this portrayal of him, the long hair, the sort of open shirt, the kind of like the not is it a lessening? Is it a softening of the psychosis? He's not as crazy here. He seems a little more playful in this film. And maybe that's historical

Yeah. But I think that all ties in with two points that we made earlier, which is number one, that Esteves wanted a classic Western, and I think his portrayal is much more in line with a classic portrayal of Billy,

It works awesome, HP. I was working at a movie theater in Somerville, Massachusetts when this movie came out, So I saw this movie a lot. Now, this movie began the month of August, and it ended with the directorial debut of Emilio s. Devez Men at Work with Charlie she.

I thought his debut was Wisdom.

His second feature film was Men at Work.

Sorry, I just I felt the need to break in there. Sorry about that.

Now, they had already Charlie Sheen and Amelia Estevez had already been in Young Guns together. But of course it was a sort of good. It had been kind of a different scenario because they weren't playing in any way friends or relations or anything. They were as disparate characters as you could get. So when Men at Work came out,

I have not, I will.

I'll cover it on the Malone's weekly round up this week.

Please do that sounds I remember it. I don't think I had showtime at the time, so there's no way I could have seen it. But I remember hearing about it and thinking, oh, that's kind of but you're right. There was a whole glut of these the dawn of porn movies and TV movies and things like that. So for me, this got lost in the shuffle. But I will rectify that.

Oh my god, I did not even mention, for fuck's sake, miss Jenny Wright.

Glorious.

You know when I mentioned Jack Keho, and I've mentioned another podcast that you and I have done where there was an actor would get a bunch of roles at a certain time and place, And because we were of a certain age and watching cable television all the time, and we're seeing these people all the time, we assumed they were huge and that was going to last forever. Such is the case of Jenny Wright from about nineteen

Was, She was that a real person in real life. Jane Greathhouse.

It makes sense that, you know what I'm going to say, probably given Fusco's a lot of the dialogue here for Billy the kid has taken from like court transcripts and stuff he's actually said about himself and others. So I would not put it past Jane Greathhouse being a real human who existed in some form or another.

Yeah, she's It's like you said, it's really only just the one scene where Billy and the gang essentially just kind of take a time out. They go to this saloon slash whorehouse that she is the proprietor of because she has known she's been friends with Billy and Pat from the past. Right, But she's so oh, she's fantastic, she's beautiful, she's tough, she has the greatest kiss off line to the whole town. When they've basically burned down, like Pet, Garrett basically betrays her in the in a

Both return on Patrick Floying Garrett played by the fantastic William Peterson.

It's a heel turn, that's exactly what it is. Because he could have just walked right out of her whorehouse and said, all right, if I can't get Billy here, if he's gone on, whatever, just if you find him, let me know. But he doesn't do that, does he.

No, Because he has to burn his past, because she is his tarnished past, and he has to be respectable now, and she's just a reminder of what a fucked up person he is, as fucked up as Billy is to this day.

Yeah, So he sets fire to her establishment in the name of piousness and morality. I was happy to see that she didn't. She escapes. She it's not as if she died in the continy.

She has some money in the bank somewhere or something, and at least a change of clothes buried somewhere.

Well, what I didn't notice the first I don't know ten times I saw this is that great climax to the scene is she walks out of the saloon or whorehouse and she's come out completely naked to shame the whole town and to just basically shame them because.

She says, hypocrites.

Yeah, I mean, they're hypocrites. So she leaves naked. He tells the town you can kiss my ass, and she drives off, or she rides off bareback on a horse. But what I didn't notice was directly following her is essentially like a stagecoach loaded with her belongings presumably, so that was kind of encouraging, Like she didn't lose everything in the fire. She is leaving with everything she can carry to begin again in another town.

Basically, good fuck pack Garret for that shit. Yeah, I know better.

That was his. That's definitely the moment to your point where you really do you're really supposed to hate him, because up to that point there was a line that he wouldn't cross when he was trying to take down Billy and he crossed the line there when he basically burned down her establishment. And now you sort of realize, well, Pats made his choice and things don't look so good for Billy anymore.

HP. Before we get to the magnificence that is the score of this film, just wanted to mention the cameos. Notice them in the pit, Yes, but with Doc Scarlock, who's down there, buddy.

Well, two people. One, the one that you actually see a little bit clearer, I think, because he actually has a little bit of an action seen, is John bon Jovi himself. He is a prisoner who tries who basically tries to strangle one of the deputies and he gets ended up getting shot, falls back into the pit, dies presumably, But right next to as Doc and Chavez are talking about their predicament and how they're gonna get out of it, Well, it's mister John Fusco. He's branded. He has a j

I thought it was Jesus Christ.

No, I think he. I thought I read somewhere that

Right, So he was a cattle, he was a cattle thief.

Yeah, exactly exactly. But it's cool to see him there because we know what he looks like, and there he is.

I believe Nick Gome, director of Loss of Gravity, is also in the movie somewhere here. And speaking of phrases that I just adored in this screenplay, the fuscare throws in when Billy meets with Governor lou Wallace and he's told he's going to get a piece of cake. He stops the guy and says, no, the one with the sweet frost. So now anytime I eat it cake, I think, ooh, sweet frost.

I like that too, because that's how they would describe it in the eighteen hundreds, right, not frosting. It's frost, the one with the sweet frost. And I love that the butler brings it to him on this beautiful silver dish basically, and Billy just grabs the cake with his bare hands and just starts eating it.

No, he grabs it with his bare hand, but then he puts out his pinky. He's being fancy.

Well that and also so he makes a deal with the governor. The deal that the governor presents to him is all you have to do is go to Lincoln and testify against the men that killed John Tunstall. And that's all I want. But in return, here's a little detail. I have to make it look like I'm arresting you. I'm gonna make it look like I got to take you in and bubblah blah. It's he's laying a trap

He's excellent gun tricks. By the way, fucking fanteam gun trigs. How is he gonna do it with one bullet left?

But it's he's gathered the governor has all these other functionaries and people in the government and what have you, and they're all it's it's like Billy's a trained monkey and they're just like, yeah, bravo. Because he shoots like three like what he uses five bullets out of his gun as a revolver have six bullets, I assume, And he shoots all but three candles on a candlelabra and he says, well, oh yeah, you got you got one

I don't care if they could or they didn't. And I'm going with I'm going with Brushy. Bill Roberts is telling us this story again, and then the labry around and then I shot all three candles with one bullet.

Neil, Yeah, there's another that reminds me of another great bit when he's supposed to be shooting the chain for Doc Scurlock and he's like, hold still, Doc, I got this infection in my elbow that makes my hand go and he almost like points the gun at his head. I just he's so funny and charismatic. I just adore Amelia Westave in this.

This is my favorite role of his. Honestly, he's so fucking good. He is Billy the Kid. Everyone could just put it away, Okay, Fucking Alan Silvestri is the newest addition to this film, and what a welcome addition delivering for me. HP I gotta say, my favorite Western score of all time.

It's one hundred and fifty percent more authentic than what we got in Young Guns Won, because I mean, if I'm being honest, it's not totally immune for the sort of modernization of the score. There's still some drums and.

Some electric there, and you know what, I love.

It, but it works. It feels like a more authentic Western score, like what you would expect from something like I mean not to make a direct comparison, but like a Sergio Leone picture like Once upon a Time in the West. This feels CinemaScope, This feels big Silvestri had I think he'd already done Back to the Future three by this point, so it's not as if he was unfamiliar with the tropes of a Western score. And I don't know, I'm pretty sure Jon bon Jovi had some

Yeah, the score is just fucking fantastic. Silvestri, of course, is one of the best composers going out there. I love his Captain America score recently, of scores like that, that that's the Captain America first Avenger. In fact, he's doing all the Avengers movies. Now he's the guy for me.

He if I think about it, He's probably done the score for probably three of my top ten movies of all time, at least maybe more for me. One of his most underrated scores is for a movie that he did, a Kevin Reynolds movie called Fandango. Now you know that it's one of my favorite movies of all time, and it's I'm not gonna that movie has a lot of songs in it, like actual Carol King and all these musicians. It's not entirely orchestrated music, but the things that he

He also basically gave us the sound of the Predator because that the little musical cue you hear every time a Predator shows up is his from the original Predator movie.

Fuck You're right?

Wow?

I forgot that he did Predator.

Oh yes, death becomes her I mean the Forrest Gump, for God's sake, the Quick.

In the Dead.

He came back and did another Western, and it doesn't sound like either of his other westerns. And it's how mac god Alan Silvestri cast?

How is it? By the way, how is it? Let me ask a question of being honest here? How is it that Alan's Maybe it's just me not recognizing this, but how is Alan Silvestri's name not spoken with the same kind of reverence as like a Hans Zimmer or some other composer? Why is he or Danny Elfman exactly? I don't get it. He is a marvelous composer. I don't understand why he's not considered one of the top echelon film composers.

How is Alan Silvestri? He can do anything Danny Elfman can do, and anything Hans Zimmer can do, and do it better than both of them. How is he not well known? I'm going to guess publicist lack thereof.

Avengers. We're forgetting avengers.

He's not out there screaming his own name. Man, it's nuts, but he does. That's what it is. He's not Chuck Jones in it. He's not hey, everybody, look at me.

Look. Everything he does is in the service to the picture. Nothing he does is it calls so much attention to itself that it takes you out of the movie. I think that's all you want from a composer, right enrich the film experience without calling attention to yourself. I can't I almost can't think of anybody who does it better in those terms than Alan Silvestry.

He also did a Million Ways to Die in the West. That's a terrible movie. That's a good score.

I didn't know he did so many Westerns. That's fascinating.

Yeah, God bless And like I said that, this scar to me is just gorgeous. And I gotta say, for a long fucking time, I was really mad because if you wanted to get the soundtrack to Young Guns Too, you were basically just buying a bon jovie record with one track, one paltry little track, guano town of fucking Alan Silvestrie. Let me tell you something that no one was happier that they finally released the score than me.

Well, you know what, now that we're talking a little bit about the soundtrack, I'm really curious to get your take on the bon Jovi song. We haven't really delved into that. We talked about the fact that he made it and it was a big hit, nominated for an oscar, But what's your take on the song? It was so omnipresent.

I am glad that they did not go with the original idea, which is they were just going to use that Wanted Dead or Alive song on a steel Horse eye ride. Bullshit. Sorry fans of Wanted Dead or Alive. I don't like that song. This is a way more per song for the film, and I know it's more modern, obviously it's a rock song, but no more or less modern than anything Bob Dylan did for Pack Aaron Billy the Kid. I love the video for it, A drive in on top of a butte in the john Ford

It's a very clever rewrite, because let's call it what it is. It's it is every bit a rewrite of Wanted Dead or Alive. It's a better verse. I shouldn't have wanted Dead or Alive. But it's not as if he strayed that far from the formula. But it's a great pop rock song. He's got Jeff Beck playing guitars on that, which is fucking bananas when you think about it. I mean, Jeff fucking Beck, the man's a legend, and he's playing on a bon Jovi track, and he's killing

Or something, but it was a Star is Born.

Shallow. Okay, I guess that's true. I guess so.

I guess that tradition still continues to this day. But sometimes it feels naked and just a bald attempt to make some money and to get you to get to the theater to so you can get even more money out of you. This felt like a film that's in evocation, or rather a song that's an evocation of the film. It's meant to and body, and I think it does that true.

I guess the point that I was leading up to is there was a time when you'd watch the Oscars and the best song was like a murderer's row of popular music and big hits from that year's worth of movies. I can't remember the last time that I watched the Oscars and you got Against All and Against All Odds by Phil Collins. That was a fucking huge song, so memorable, and that was an Oscar nomination.

You know what that lost to? I just called to Say I Love You by Stevie Wonder. I love Stevie Wonder HP. But that fucking song was written before that movie, and the rules of the Oscars were supposed to be that the song was written specifically for that film, So that's disqualified against all odds.

One.

I'm Quentin Tarantino ing the history of the Oscars right now.

I'm looking at the list of nominees and the winner from that year's Best Original Song nineteen ninety one. Okay, I'm gonna read you the list of songs and the movies they came from, and don't cheat, you tell me which one was the winner. Okay, yep, we'll start. Obviously, Blaze of Glory from Young Guns two, a song I can't believe this. Shelle Silverstein had a song from the Postcards from the Edge soundtrack called I'm checking out. Don't remember that one.

Promise me you'll write if you remember it actually, Okay, go ahead.

Promise me you'll remember from The Godfather Part three somewhere in my memory from Home Alone as a John Williams song. I remember that one, okay, And sooner or later, I always get my man from Dick Tracy. Stephen Sondheim.

That's the winner.

You're fucking right. I can't believe you guessed that. I'm gonna look.

I love I remember the performance. Are you kidding me? I remember Madonna saying, tell me about it. General schwartzkof just dating it. Hey, everybody, there's a fucking there's a military action going on right now now.

I love Stephen Sondheim, don't get me wrong. But if I'm looking at that list of nominees and I'm thinking of the one that is going to live on beyond nineteen ninety one in the decades since honestly, I'm not trying to blow smoke young guns.

Two.

Blaze of Glory is the hit from that list of songs that should have won.

It's the clear winner. It's the clear winner. It is the song about the movie for the movie that describes the movie, draws eyes to the movie, it evokes the movie. It's all it is. The movie. Yeah, a superior version of an initial draft. Right, This Young Guns Do is better than Young Guns Blaze of Glory is better than Wanted Dead or Alive.

Yeah, So that's I guess. It's just it should have won. It should have won. I can't say it any better than that. But that's It's not as if this is a unique occurrence in the oscars. How many times we look into, oh, that should have why did that win? That's terrible? But in this case, I think there's a case to be made there. That's all I'm saying.

HP. We've never really spoken of the Chevez and we're not gonna hear other than the fact that Chavez, as a real human being, did not meet any white horse for many years. He died in the twentieth century, as did Josiah doc Scarlock. He lived until what the twenties or nineteen twelve, I believe something like that. So here's the deal. Evidently, scheduling conspired against the film, and Keiper Sutherland insisted that Doc Skurlock ends his journey at dying

And as we've already pointed out many times, Fusco is a stickler for historical record. That's why the first one was considered so so accurate to the times that they lived in. So I can and it must have galled him to have to write in the death of a man who didn't die for another thirty years or something. But at the same time, I'm sure he recognized that

So or it's something as Yeah, it's as dramatically appealing as he's the one who finishes the game, so to speak.

It's a great death scene. Having said that, he goes out swinging.

Yeah, and we feel it because we love dok.

It's but he gets that real wild bunch slow motion death right because he's already been shot once he's dying, and he makes the conscious decision I will go and I will distract them and you guys can get away. And he gets out there and he gets blown to pieces. You see every squib firing off on his body and he falls face first into the dirt. Who what actor wouldn't want to have that glorious Western death right?

Yeah, not just like shuffling off to Texas to like live his life and become an old man. I want to if I'm in a western Now, that's not how I want to go out.

I want to go out shooting.

God damn right. Dragged by a horse? Maybe, I don't know.

There was that accident. Did you hear about that? There was this really it was actually life threatening that happened to Lou Diamond Phillips. You have you never read this or heard about Oh.

Let's talk about Chavez. We've never talked about Chavez.

We're not going to start now. No, Apparently there was a he was he was called upon to do an unwritten, unrehearsed stunt on a horse, and he got on the horse. I think he it was during the escape from the pit where he had a rope around his neck, and apparently Emili Westavez shot his gun as part of the scene. The gun spooked the horse that Lou Diamond Phillips was riding.

And that's why he stabbed.

That's why he gets stabbed by Dave Rutiba to hide the fact that he had broken his arm.

I loved when he got stabbed, so I don't. I don't wish harm on anyone. I'm sorry lou Diamond Phillips got harmed in the making of the film. That shouldn't happen to anybody. But if that gave us that fucking Rudiba stab and Chavez through the arm during a fight in a Native American graveyard, then fucking no, I shouldn't. I still can't advocate anyone getting hurt, but it.

Paints Chavez is a badass because he gets stabbed through the arm and the motherfucker barely flinches.

Yeah. Man, you know what we haven't talked about. Jabz is a fucking awesome character. Man. The scene at the end of Young Guns when he's talking to Dirty Steve and he's how many times I've held a play up to your throat when you've been asleep.

I love that. I'm glad I didn't kill you.

And he's great here and I believe him. And I thought as soon as you started talking about a white horse at the beginning, I was like, oh man, they're gonna kill Chavez.

It's a damn shame because he is a badass. He's the one who's always twirling the knife around in his hand, which I guess was also a little bit of a historical license because apparently he was every bit as good with the rifle as he was with the knife. But Lou Diamond Phillips, he's not often talked about either, but he's a very good actor. He has tons of charisma. He's got that fucking million dollar smile. He's tough, you buy. Even though we've talked about this, he's not actually Mexican

A fucking gang banger in that fucking Teach Me to Read movie.

Stand and Deliver. Yeah, what is he like? I'm not going to forget it.

My friend Tom Richmond was the director photography on that movie.

I think I did know that.

Actually he was wildly proud of that film because that film actually, like affected some change in the LA County and LA school districts.

It's easy to poke fun at that film because it is a little facile and sort of pat but but it's a well made movie. You're really rooting for these kids. And like you said, he plays Lou Diamond Phillips plays a really tough gang banger in that movie, and you buy him, Like the guy could play Richie Allens, he could play a gang member, he could play a Mexican.

You just fucking yeah, Okay, I get it. He's something. I believe him he is. Okay, I guess he's Lebanese. No, he's Mexican. Okay, is he boy? He's Hondura. Okay, he's charming too.

I can't think of a movie that I've seen with Lou Diamond Phillips where I didn't think, oh, he's really good in that. He did that terrible movie with Mark Wahlberg where he was a hitmand He was the best thing in that fucking movie.

Yeah, yeah, that was a terrible movie. He was good.

He was the like I said, he was the best thing about it. He was having fun. He was a badass, a comical badass. He was so good in that.

All right, well, and he's really good in this.

I mean, we're poking fun a little bit, but he's every bit as good as any of the other regulators in both.

I love this gang, this gang because this isn't even the regulators anymore. This is regular un there's two point zero maybe because a lot of them are dead, but this gang in particularly now if Pat Garrett was with them, then it'd be even better, let's face it.

But one of the things I love is we talked about the first movie where there's a scene towards the end where Billy is kind of having fun with this bounty hunter, basically toying with him until he finally kills him. And the fact that Doc Skurlock the other ones are still sort of afraid of Billy and they're just kind

Oh no, this has to continue now.

And Chavez is kind of just looking back at him as Henry says this, and you can see it on his face. The man is dying and he's, oh, fuck this guy again. Oh my god. As much as their pals and they're in the same gang, they're still fucking. They still don't really like Billy, Let's be honest.

It's on the old Blackbird, the Mexican Blackbird.

That's another We talked about this a little bit.

We talked about yeah you're yeah, please.

I want to I just want to point out that this is a little touch that I noticed how people eagle eared listeners to this podcast will remember we talked about Crossroads. As Father Malone mentioned earlier, this is the second movie I can think of in the Fusco Verse where there's a there's a journey, a trek that's predicated on a lie. Because in Crossroads, the whole notion of Willie Brown taking Eugene down to Mississippi so that he can teach him this lost Robert Johnson's song It's a Lie.

Doctor would have kicked him in the face.

He would have gone berserk because it would have been yet another It was just so frustrating for him. I just thought, that's interesting that we have in both of these John Fusco movies. We have this journey that's dedicated on a lie that is eventually exposed and kind of crushing for all people involved. I don't know, it's it'll be interesting to see some of these other movies I'm not familiar with. Is there a betrayal of sorts in the Babe in there.

In Hidalgo that he convinces everyone that he's bringing a camel and he brings a horse.

Is that a heavy moment at the end of the movie where they have to reconsider their allegiances.

No, it's right as soon as the race begins. Do we get that reveal? Because it's really hard to disguise the fact that he's actually got a fucking horse.

I love that term the Mexican blackbird because it sounds like it could be just a name for some weirds anything.

It sounds like it could be a taco stand. What are you talking about, Billy? What are you doing to us? Man? Why are you running us in circles so you can continue to have a fucking good time?

Yeah? Do you know what Mexican blackbird actually is? Apparently what it's a zz top song ah from nineteen seventy five. Yeah, I don't know what it's about, never heard.

It, but about a Mexican horror of course.

It's off of what album is it off of?

I don't know.

Fandango is the name of the album.

Apparently, Oh my god, not to Gueo.

No, not eliminator, not that.

One, not the one with your beers in a mustache that Dean Semler was a director of photography on both movies. The first film is so muted into like earth toned, and now we get the sort of john Ford like red rock gorgeousness with sunsets blazing and fucking the Old West. As you said, if their intention was to make everything they didn't in the first Young Guns, they accomplished it. Man. They lapped that first movie. And they've got a guano town here.

Now what is the deal with the guano town? They're actually they're mining for back guano?

Yeah, what are they?

What does that use?

Do you not have guano? It's delicious?

Is it a fertilizer thing? Is that why?

There's a great line there is a town in Ecuador called Guana.

I knew that.

Fertilizer. Of course, there you go.

I did not know that. Dave Rudabah has a great line after the guy says they're like, what are you mining guano? Well, what's guano, batshit, and he goes I've been I have been to Silver Town, I've been to Turquoise Town, but I ain't never been to a bat shit town.

This entire every town these fucking idiots end up in as a bat shit town.

It's totally Yeah, one thing I have to bring up. This is a quick thing, just for my own you know, I just have to mention this. I don't I frankly, father, I don't know how they didn't injure any of those horses in this movie. This horse is in this movie. They perform stunts that I don't know that I've ever seen in a movie prior to this. There's a scene where they go over a cliff. There's horses tom over people. There's horses getting shot and falling down and rearing up

Do you notice that, Well, they seem to have gone through a lot, but I guarantee you that they did not. I can fairly guarantee that the ASPCA was monitoring all of the action going on here in this American production taking place on American soil. I think if you go and look at a movie like I don't know, Connor the Barbarian or say anything by Sam Peckinpah, you are going to see some horrific fucking shit going down with horses.

That makes sense, ben Her, I think there was probably a lot of animal fatalities.

Oh my god, I'm sure every everything was killed. I'm sure they killed stuntman and didn't care when they were making Ben hur written by Governor Lou Wallace.

That's why I bring it up. Yeah, that's famously the chariot scenes are famously lethal from that movie because it was a time before you had these protections for animals and people, so but I just I think it's I'm sure that you're right. But boy, it looks like those horses went through a lot in this movie. There really worked over something fierce. Anyway, I just wanted to min That's the last thing I had in my notes was how the fuck did they not kill the horse in this movie?

But no, I will say this insummation. William Peterson makes that hand of bar mustache look good.

And he cleans up good though, like when he looks every bit the outlaw when he's got the long hair. But when he becomes quote unquot respectable and he's got the badge and his short hair, he fixes up his mustache he's got.

But when he's the outlawn, when he's got that mobius strip where the mustache meets the hairline and continues around the head, he looks fucking awesome. And that's a tough look to pull off. William Peterson fucking nails.

It it is, and he's got that's a great scene when he's about to set fire to the whorehouse. I love when people can light matches off of like the sheriff badge. I love that he does that great.

Nice little close up of him doing that.

Yeah, it's a good shot.

Is there anything else about this movie? Let's talk. You know what, Here's the thing this is. This is the best ability of the kid movie of all time, just

Well, I think time is only proven, you right. I think at that time, I hate to say, but I think he was still being painted with the brat pack brush. I think a lot of them were, and I don't think that he was really given the chance to prove himself as the great actor that we know that he is. I mean, the man's been doing it forever now, and I think he's fantastic in this. I think critically, I think it's due for a reappraisal. I think it's a

Yet, the nineties had a pretty fucking great resurgence in westerns. I'm not the biggest fan of Unforgiven. I see it as a career capper that you know, for Eastwood, that it's an appropriate end to his Western career. But that movie belongs to Gene Hackman after all. But the actual westerns to me of the nineties were Young Guns two and Tombstone and maybe The Quicken the.

Dead Well Dances.

Look, I'm not shut up with Dances with Wolves. I don't care if Dean Semler, director of photography here, was also the director of photography on Dances with Wolves. I don't like that movie.

Time has not been kind to Dances with Wolves, and I will admit that, But if you're talking about the nineties resurgence of the Western, you cannot say that without including Dances with Wolves. That nineteen ninety one oscars that we talked about, Dances with that, that was the famous Dances with Wolves oscars that won all kinds of fuck awards.

I know, and they should take them all back and give them all to somebody else.

It was an important movie for its time and.

Part of the important movie for your time. HP.

I'm just saying, man, it was a important.

This movie is an important movie at this time for westerns. This is a more important movie than Dances with Wolves. Young Guns to Hot take Young Guns Too. Is a better and more important Western than Dances with Wolves? Easily? That's a hell I'll die on. Is it better than Unforgiven? Yes, yes it is. This is a better Western than Unforgiven? Is it better than Once Upon a Time in the West? I don't know.

It's a classic Western in a way that we hadn't seen westerns like that for a long time.

Right. Is it better than Hang Them High? Yes, it's better than.

I'll be Gonna go Through. Is it better than the Outlaw Josie Wales? Yes?

I don't know. You said, you Wales, that's tough because that's hallucinatory and weird.

What was the one with Willie Nelson? Is it better than the red Headed Stranger or whatever?

Yeah, it's better than the red Headed Strange? What are you crazy?

But I think that the thing we can agree on, like I said, is that this was a wonderful return and this is completely by design. This is a real old school Western in a given to us in a way that we hadn't for years.

Do you remember the Tom and Jerry carrtoon took place on a dude ranch and Jerry had a relative. It was a little cowboy and he used to sing Froggy wind of courtin no anything. He did crimebone like that, and he kept breaking his guitar strings. And every time he would break a guitar string, he would go rip off of one of Tom's whiskers and restring the guitar. And Tom kept freaking out. Every time you would hear the guitar string, he would like, get all panicky and run.

Man.

When I'm not I don't have a pithy thing when I'm not watching movies. You can find me elsewhere on the weirding Way Network. I co host the Night Mister Walter's Taxi podcast with my erstwhile companion here, my co host Father Alone, and I'm an occasional guest on the Culture Cast with Christashu. I also host the Noise Junkies music podcast. If you want to hear someone nerd out over music, go check that out. And I have, Speaking of music, I have a bandcampsite hpmusicplace dot bandcamp dot com.

Are you up to? Nothing? I don't do anything with this show. Listen, go the links are going to be obviously in the comment section. Whatever the fuck we call that? For HP's music, which you need to go listen to immediately. It's fucking great. It's like music for an eighties film that never existed. That's a fun premise and it delivers. If you're looking for me, you find me right here. If you want to give me some cash, go to

Remember John Tustle, Remember the stories you tell us about the three Chilnamen playing fan Tan.

Someone runs up to.

Him and says, hey, the world is coming to an end, and the first one says, a lot, best go to the mission to pray, and the second one says, well, I'm gonna go buy me a case of Miss Gallon six horse, and the third one says, well, I shall finish the game.

I shall finish the game. Doc Sass sings, oh yeah,