¶ Intro / Opening
Will you wait, Miss.
Exist Sis, Welcome back Midnight Viewers to Fusco Fest, where we are taking a look at the filmography of screenwriter John Fusco.
So far, we've covered Crossroads, Young Guns, Young Guns Too, and then out of order we did the Babe. But we're now back to setting things right with this week's selection. A Thunderheart joining me as always is the host of Night Mister Walters, a taxi podcast HP. How are you HP?
I'm doing well, father alone? How are you tonight?
Oh me? Thank you for asking. I'm well now. Given the subject matter and how I abhor the idea of another podcast about an indigenous people conducted entirely by suburban white guys, I've invited a special guest to join us. She is a member of the Moapa Band of Paiutes in southern Nevada and works for the tribe as a project director for adult wellness and childcare programs. Please welcome Ashley Marie tom Osborne. Welcome to Midnight of Viewing.
Ashley, Oh, thank you for having me on.
It is entirely our pleasure. I hope you can set us straight on some of the misconceptions surrounding this film
¶ First Impressions of Thunderheart
and well Native films in general, we'll get to it. I think this might this film might be better than most. But anyway, the movie we're talking about here today is the fourth in the filmography of John Fusco. This is Thunderheart.
There's been a homicide on Indian Land.
They sent him to a foreign land.
What's my cover?
In the middle of America? You're going in?
There?
Is who you are?
American Indian Federal office.
To uncover the truth?
Federal offs their hands on your head?
What's your name?
Sure as hell?
Ain't Geronimo chief?
Like?
Maybe you guys got off the wrong exit.
Yuh.
He's looking from Alt Rushmore. Who are you, Walter crow Horse tribal police?
You must be the Indian in FDI.
That's right? What nation?
Right?
They're your own people, aren't they?
They are not my people?
Hey, look the Washington redskin.
Whoever killed they? Oh walks heel toe.
This guy was a big son of a bucket. That's say, goes two ten, two fifteen.
You're gonna tell me how much change he had in his.
Pocket sixty three cents.
Now to find the truth, he must face the mystery within himself.
Says he knew he were coming here he was told, who told him, Oh, gosh, are their spirits.
We can't get suckered into that. We're here to take our man and go home.
You can chamship shift into different animals.
You gotta stop him. Listen to the wind will tell me things. Cola, you had yourself a vision, said you're chasing the wrong man. You said we should follow this.
¶ Cultural Representation and Critique
Oh, pither one of us gets hit ray, it'll be all she wrote.
The owl is a messenger.
It means somebody's gonna die.
Under hard As Come.
Released on April the third, nineteen ninety two. It was directed by Michael Aptid, written by John Fusco. Cinematographied Roger Deakins My God, music by James Horner. Starring Val Kilmer, Ram Green, Sam Shepard, Shila Tausi, Fred Ward, Ted Thinnelk, and John Trudell. It is about a murder that occurs on a reservation in South Dakota. The FBI sins in agent Ray Levoy, played by Valcumer, based on his one
quarter Siux heritage. His father was half Sue, even though he's had no contact with either family or his culture since age. Since the age of seven, during his investigation, he comes up against a corrupt local militia headed by Fred Ward while investigating Arm the Aboriginal Rights Movement, a group of Native activists that are the prime suspects for
the murder. The events depicted are loosely based on the Wounded Knee incidem seventy three, with Arms standing in for Aim the American Indian Movement who sees control of the
¶ Tropes and Stereotypes in Thunderheart
town of Wounded Knee that ended with three dead and over a dozen wounded. Now, ordinarily I would kick it to you, Harrison, to ask you about your the first time you saw this movie. I'm gonna go straight to Ashley. Ashley, when did you first see this movie? What were your thoughts? Then? What are they now? On rewatch?
When I was probably about in high school, I saw the movie because a lot of my family we love like watching movies, and we always make the joke like, hey, natives watching natives, So we're always curious about depictions. And even though yes, I could say I had a really positive experience, but I know I have my qualms, which I'll share later, But I honestly think that with the mystery and the cultural exploration, I really that aspect of it, especially like a lot.
Of the themes of discrimination was really spot on. In my opinion.
It still kind of makes me a little uncomfortable seeing some scenes in a way, but it's sort of like in a sense of realities because each of us have either been in situations that sort of parallel those kind of lines of discrimination. And then of course, like the activism and the historical injustice, like that was part of something that really speaks because that's pretty much even though that it aim is actually what it's based off of,
which is called the American Indian Movement. I kind of like how they kind of incorporated that story in there as well, because in a way it does need to be heard and seen by larger audiences on such like a huge impact in tribal communities. And then of course the cinematography. I'm a big dort for that. I think that the beautiful landscapes of the reservation is it really
brings a lot of sense of home. I know that it might be a little rough around the edges for people that have never even seen a reservation, because like it's supposed to be loosely based off of Pine Ridge. But even though that we had isolated homes and a lot of struggles with a lot of like social class, especially being in poverty. But I believe that remote reservations are an expression of our resilience because it really takes
tough boots to be living out there. I grew up on one, so yeah, that's kind of what I think overall in general.
Right on HB, what was your first viewing of the movie?
Then?
What do you think of it now?
So I'm sure I saw this when it was on cable back it probably aired ninety three, I would guess, obviously a big fan of Valcilmer then and now. I
¶ Environmental and Community Issues
probably didn't know what to make.
Of it at the time.
I didn't know enough about the true world events that it was based on, like Leonard Peltier and Pine Ridge and.
All that stuff.
So really, it would say watching it in advance for this podcast was kind of a new experience for me, seeing it with kind of more opened eyes and more informed So I and it's hard. You can't disconnect it from obviously the passing of Val Kilmer, so that weighed heavily on my viewing of it. I think it's a fantastic movie. I agree with Ashley. I think this is an important story that needs to be told. I don't think there's enough movies that focus on issues in the
Native American population. But having said that, I also agree with Ashley that I had my problems with the movie as progressive and as important as it was, especially at the time. There's a few things, and actually I'm really curious to get Ashley's take on some of these things that I had problems with. But but yeah, this was ultimately this was it felt like the first time I saw it this past time I watched it.
Are we all talking about the mysticism? Yes, yes, yeah, it's the only real flaw in this film.
I agree mostly Like for me, I think it was like the mixed blood hero trope. Well with Ray the mixed heritage. He embraces his native identity, which I mean, like in a lot of instances, a lot of people do have a disconnection with culture and then returning to that culture. I understand that is like a real journey. But while it allows that compelling personal journey, I would argue that it reinforces the idea that native wisdom must
be discovered through a non traditional outsider. And what I mean is reconnecting with your roots through unexpected circumstances like when crow Horse and Grandpa Sam sort of introduced Ray to Native spirituality. But like my space take is like when the trading of the rolex for a peace pipe is sort of like a metaphorical acceptance of his identity, and I think it sort of cheapens the experience, so in a way it leads into like appropriation of Native spirituality.
Like I understand that visuals and spiritual guidance are a key of race transformation, but I think it like commodifies the culture in a way that it caters to like more Western audiences, and I believe that reconnecting with your cultural roots isn't always this grand performance of soul searching
like through a vision luss. So I'm like, yeah, I mean, like talking to the wind and like things of that nature is like yeah, we I mean, I know sometimes we like to joke and mock those like stereotypes, but I think in reality that's not what it's really like. And then my other second like sort of issue was
the lone Rangeo and Tonto dynamic. Oh yes, because I love Graham Green, Like I mean, in the Native community, he's like a superstar, So I think that relationship between Ray and Walter Crowhors has always been compared to that class of trope in my opinion because like white hero and Native sidekick, because since he's so what we call colonized, but since he's not really like familiar with his roots, he does sort of have the more like colonized Western
perspective at birst. So that's why I kind of say white hero, well, pro horse is such a strong character in my opinion, and he still plays a supportive role in range journey rather than being like a central figure. That's kind of like those are.
Like my two big Let's send some other tropes too, because I've heard a lot level that at this film. I've heard a lot level that a lot of Native films poverty porn. Do you think this movie registers anywhere in the poverty porn scale?
I believe so, because there's like a huge dynamic that people don't really realize is that like when you just focus on that, it's it gives this people this the stereotype that oh that all reservations must be like that, oh look at them, oh poor them, And it really has such like a negative stereotype that I'm just like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Like, reservations are very beautiful despite being isolated, I know, like back at home or just about an hour outside of Vegas,
Like there's such beautiful landscapes, beautiful sunrises, beautiful sunsets, a lot of animals, a lot of natural resources around you, even especially when the Muddy River runs through a lot of wildlife that you don't get to experience like obviously in the city. And also the essence of community. I
know that that was sort of not really highlighted. It showed a lot of the conflicts between the natives that are sorting kind of like conspirizing with the FBI and like all of that, and then of course like the a movement aspect, and then the people there. It's like it's there's not that much separation when it comes to community, because how we survive is within our community and our resilience.
And so it's a lot of showing that, oh, look at them, for them, Oh they must be so sad, And it just kind of kind of rose me the wrong way because I'm like, no, reservations are beautiful, They're not necessarily always so heavily dark and sad, and that's what I don't really like how it kind of comes off a little bit in some of the scenes where like you see the decaying houses and a lot of I guess you could say like kind of separation. I know that like with me growing up, we did have
running water, electricity. I know some reservations probably during in that timeframe didn't. But it's not something that should be like highly focused on in a scene. It sort of takes away from what's actually going on within the story.
It kind of negates the diversity of what life on a reservation could be. I'm sure, for instance, for our listeners who cannot see you, Ashley is a Goth, I think you would say that pretty proudly, right.
Yeah, punk and goth influences.
Yes, she's sitting in a black Cleopatra chair right now, for fuck's sake, So you've stolen my culture. You know what's interesting, We'll get to the plot in the sort of machinations of the film and particularly Graham Green, because Walter Crowhorse is the greatest character in this film, and it's fucking shocking. We didn't get a series of films or books or comic books or anything with Walter crow Horse. That's staggering. But I will say as a white viewer
watching the film. As soon as Ray sort of makes the switch and realizes he's been on the wrong side the whole time, in my opinion, he became Tonto. He's Walter's sidekick for the rest of the movie. I kind of viewed the rest of the movie the way I view Big Trouble in Little China. That movie another movie sort of you can level a lot of cultural appropriation and like leveling the all the hidden mysticism of the
of these Asian peoples. But in that movie, very definitely, Kurt Russell is just the fucking sidekick and that flick he is a bumbler at best. So I don't think that necessarily negates what you're saying, because clearly I never even thought of it as the old Lone Ranger and Tonto thing, but now it kind of makes sense seeing them tramping through and Thelcilmer leading the way and everything.
But one of the things I love best that's a great comparison Father alone the Big Trouble Little China, because ultimately, Walter Crowhorse is always two or three steps ahead of every move that Ray tries to make, because he understands very quickly that Ray is part of this corrupt situation coming into the reservation, and they've come in, they already know who they want to the suspect they want to frame up on this, and Walter Crowhorse is very aware
of what they're up to, so he's already he's doing his own investigating. So at every juncture, he is way ahead of Ray and the rest of the government folks, because he's the one actually looking for the real killers, looking for justice for this murder. So I think that supports your assertion, Father Malone, that in fact, Ray is the sidekick, even though he's the one who kind of leads the charge at the end the chase away from the government forces. For me, I think Walter Crowhorse I agree.
Number one, he's my favorite character in the movie. And number two, I think that Ray is subordinate to Walter at every point in the movie. I never because it takes half of the movie for Ray to even have his spiritual awakening, which is what precipitates his whole change of focus and his change of perception of what's happening.
Yeah, now, I'd like to double back to that because that was the other trope you kind of had a problem with, and could not agree more because here's the thing. If you stripped away all of the mysticism of this movie, it's a fucking perfect movie. It's just an examination of life and what's going on on the reservation. You didn't need one bit of it. Like you can do a fucking Irish story and not go to church at any point. It's not necessary. Yeah, we're known for it, but come on, I.
Agree because that's sort of like something that I think I've experienced where I talk about like discriminated like parallels, is that, Yeah, he is like way ahead of the game.
He knows, he's very aware, and nobody's listening.
To him and sort of undermines him, disrespects him, and it's like something that like, that's what I kind of like about that part of the plot is that that is actually a real experience that a lot of people from any minorities have faced, where these people.
Come in in suits, they're trying to tell them what to do.
They're not listening to anyone else, they're not even familiar with the community or culture, and they're coming in and telling them how things are. And then like people that are aware, they're like wait, no, no, no, no, no, and especially like with I forgot her name, but she was the school teacher.
The other one that really stuck out to me, or her character. It's been a minute since I've seen the film.
But I remember her quite what you're talking about, Shila Towsey, her characters.
Eagle Bear Yes, yes, Maggie yes.
And the reason why it stuck out to me is that she, yeah, she went, she got educated, and she came back to her reservation to help and to like sort of bring education to the school children and things of that nature. And so it's like even her her character, her importance, like her intelligence, was like like I don't want to hear it. You don't know what you're talking about.
And I think that that also, like those like narratives and there really do kind of show that experience where I don't have an issue with it because it does really show that contrast.
I think.
Let me hit you with another trope, the noble Savage. Is he present in this film?
I would say, what was his name in the wheelchair?
Is that Leo not Leo fast Out?
That was?
Oh he was?
His character was working with them. Richard Yellowhawk, Yes, yes, Richard Yellowhawk.
He sort of played that role of being. He was obviously corrupted be utilized as that central figure, and that's what sort of made me kind of go like turning on your own people, thinking that you're like probably taking money for it, because that's what I'm assuming. A lot of bribery and all those things sort of happened.
And he was only doing it because he wanted They were threatening to put him.
Back in jail.
I mean that, I not to say there's any sympathy for this guy because he we know that he committed at least one murder in the service of the government, but they were putting the screws to him at every juncture. They basically told him and under knowing certain terms, you do this or we're going to send you back to folsom prison or wherever he was. So he didn't benefit in any way that I could tell other than the fact that he was trying to stay out of prison.
Well, it's just like that manipulation tactic.
I was like, because mostly like what I when I think what has happened from what my experience is what story has been told to me, is that a lot of the governmental figures, the colonizer figures, will come in find either a weakness something black Maley to kind of hold against you, and it sort of like challenges your inner moral You know that this is wrong, but I have to think of me right now. And so that's kind of where that that that's that I guess I hate to say it, but savagery in a way, like
taking that out on your own people. It has happened throughout history, like it's it's happened at the Battle of Mormon Mountain where oh yea, even my own people were like, oh, will help you with food, We'll, we'll, we'll try to save you and help you in exchange of and that sort of manipulation and like exploitation really comes into play. And that's what like sort of where I get that trope from. Is that like having our own savage against our own people.
I hadn't heard it put that way. That's very interesting. Now, the final shope I want to get into this movie is fucking rife with it. It's got white people as Indians, It's got a lot of white people who's Indians. Val Kilmer. Val Kilmer swore up and down he had some kind of strain of blood. I guess, so maybe fred Ward, fred Ward has no Indian blood. He is not a Native American in any way, shape or for him. Okay, now clearly you said it. They set it up so
it's mixed blood. So we can kind of get away with Val Kilmer. And he's good looking, he's got cheekbones. We can forgive him. Valcomer should be just automatically accepted by any race. That's kind of my theory on that that transcends this film and all films. But what are your thoughts on this film? Is this is as gregious as others or does it really pull you out of the movie in any way that they're doing that.
Well, let me think, I think when it comes to let me think, I think, well, I think like with this film in general, like I know that it heavily leads into the crime genre, a dressing those themes of identity and systematic heritage, and so I do that it shares that like uncovering corruption, historical trauma, and comparatively at the time, I will say at the time, because in
Hollywood during that time, there was that those stereotypes. There wasn't a lot of like Native American representation, There wasn't a lot of Native American stories and they weren't really socially conscious with what they're doing, and so I know that, like with this film in general, I do appreciate that they did do their homework. You know, there was some stuff in there that I could say, okay, that was really I liked that they did put some Native American
actors in there. I do the use and the dialogue of the indigenous language of the Lakota, I do there were some there there. I mean, other than like the deep mysticism, but like the importance. I think even though that I mentioned that the rolex with the peace pipe like exchange being cheapened because of the rolex, But in I know that in Lakota culture that receiving a peace pipe or well a pipe, they usually call them pipe carries.
They don't really call peace pipes, but they're called pipe carriers.
And so they hold that.
¶ John Trudell
I guess you could say that honor as something like very serious, very like honorable, and it means something showing that like you have met your place within the community and you are respected for what you've done for your community, because being a pipe carrier carries that medicine. So I do like that there is those certain things that are in there, and then of course like this like this
dramatization of what happened that wounded me. Like I remember specifically the scene where he's in there with Sam and Sam begins to speak English to him and tells him about like his experience what happened at wounded me, and that's kind of where like the gears start clicking with him. So I do like really appreciate those aspects of it because that's like I, like you said, they took out
all the mysticism, it would be perfect. And so I look at nowadays when now that there's more content out there for Native American representation being written by natives, like for natives, and I do see that trajectory starting to change. And so like in its time and its infancy, it really did set the precedents in a way because like in other films, like you don't really see that other than like, for example.
Dances with Wolves. Oh like shit like that.
Excuse me, sorry, but no, go to the fucking town because that is a piece of garbage, that motherfucking movie Graham Green or not.
Yeah exactly.
So it's like that's that stuff is ough, Like it really gives me, like the irks, and then I really look at something like this where I can see that they they had good intentions. They really tried to incorporate like the tradition and the culture kind of in a like in a well way, well meaningful way. I don't see any disrespect for that too much. But again it's like at an early age because like now there has been that shift of like progressive Native stories and platforms.
So I do appreciate seeing that shift, and I like that because I mean with all the new things that are coming out, like specifically like Dark Winds, like that's a big new show that's coming out, and that is I would have never imagined anything such that, or Reservation Dogs things like that really, because really the only pinnacle story that we all like revert to is like Smoke Signals. That was a huge film for like natives like all
the time. That's just one of the big ones. And a lot of Natives did like movies, like I know that there are a lot of My family is a bit of a film buff Like we used to back in the day.
We had one family that had a house.
We had a house that had cable, so we would record movies on VHS's and have because we didn't have access to Bockbuster or things like that.
And so we would have like troves of like.
Movies on recorded VHS tapes, and then we are like, we would do a lot of our jokes, a lot of the mockings, a lot of references. That's sort of like like what's important to us. And then so when we see films that actually depict Native Americans, it is exciting because it's, oh, look at us, like we're on TV or or we're in this movie, or we value those things in the movies. So that's where I kind of see it's it's not too offensive, but it's I guess I don't. It doesn't anger me that much because
of it. It is an important story because a lot of people don't even know what happened at Wounded Mee. They don't know anything about AIM, they don't know anything about what happened in the struggles of Native Americans, and so it's sort of like, hey, there's at least something and so at that I can appreciate at least something.
Now, one actor we haven't mentioned yet, and this de heis directly into what you were just saying. Mister John Trudell as Jimmy Looks twice. Now he is the primary suspect in the film for killing Leo Fastel. Can you tell us a little bit about John Trudell and what a motherfucking badass he is? Ashley, I, well, I think.
That, well, well, for me, I think that he really he really sort of like played that role so hard and it is inspiring because it gets me when I when I remember watching the film, it got me all excited and so seeing that native representation and then having that resistance, that rebelliousness that I'm going to just just tell shit like it is and this is what I'm biting for. It really does give you that I don't know.
For me, it gave me sort of like it got me excited, and it got because like I'm very I have my ties in activism too, and so it just like seeing that and watching his performance and that I'm just like, fuck, yeah, that's what we need, Like we need somebody that's about to take on this. Still I'm saying,
fuck these colonizers, I'm gonna run this. And because there's a lot of times not people don't know the kind of activism and the kind of things that we do even today in society, and it's really tough because, like you don't really see.
It that often. So that's why I really appreciate his performance in it.
I was just about to ask you, are there fucking moments for you in this film?
Yes, I mean I would say, well, especially if you know at the ending, I'll start with that one.
I that's a fuck yeah moment for everybody. Yeah, but specifically for you seeing natives fucking stand up and surround these fucking white idiots who have been trying to fucking take their land and turn it into a uranium mine.
I know, I know, because the way I see it is that that uranium mining, land export exploitation.
I mean, that is a huge thing.
That happens with a lot of Native American tribes. So even though that in the movie, it's like kind of loosely based on that, seeing that and fight because a lot of my activism is tied into that of protecting the land, protecting the like wildlife and things of that nature.
And being able to see in that film when they're all standing around and protecting the land, is I the real concern from any rent reservations facing environmental and economic challenges and they're just saying, fuck you, this is our land.
I was just like, yes, yes, yeah, let's let's let's corner everyone into one little parcel of land and then fucking try and strip mine it and pull it out from under them. Wonderful, glad, God bless America.
Yeah.
I know a lot of times we always joke that a lot of the like, well, when all that stuff went down, I'll say, I'll just call it stuff because it's a but an unpleasantness, Yeah, the unpleasantness of our history where it's all fucked up.
They didn't realize that the lands that they put us on does have a.
Lot of like important resources and a lot of now natural resources, minerals and things that they want to shrip and exploit, and they don't understand that the environmental harm and that causes not just to the environment, but also to the people that live on it. It's a very
important thing. Like when she was you know, like collecting the water and they were realizing it, oh, all of us are getting sick and then seeing the bigger picture when they finally go to the testing site and they find and they see that I don't think that people realize that Hey, like that happens quite often, and a lot of reservations have faced a lot of fights with the federal government on land and their resources, and it's something that I think that a lot of tribes do
flex their sovereignty. I know my tribe has, and we fought for a lot. We're still fighting and and it's tough because we are resilient people. We know how to utilize our resources, we know how to sort of take care of our our community and then survive because like
we're all survivors in the sense of the genocide. And so I like that in the movie that it does show those elements, not just the Leonard Helter case parallels, and not just the government surveillance and corruption and the wounded knee, but really looking at what other tribes actually do face when it comes to that land exploitation. Because everybody's always saying, oh, they're always trying to fight for their land. They're always saying land back, What.
Do they even mean by that?
And it's just well, if you ever actually look into it, like there's a reason why we're trying to fight and
¶ AIM and Government Overreach
preserve the land, because there's going to be a point in time when that balance that you know it's gonna get fucked up, and then then water systems get polluted like animal like life starts going away, the ecosystem starts fucking itself, and you're just gonna be like, oh well, I kind of wanted all this stuff for whatever exploitation, whatever they.
Come in and do.
Yeah, it makes you wonder about the nation constantly screaming about protecting children poisoning their fucking children.
HP.
Let's speak dramatically about this film for a second. If you don't mind.
Absolutely what he got.
Did the mystery fool you? Were you in any were you at any time fooled by Sam Shepherd, the true villain of this FILMOCHD.
Initially, early on, I was taken in because Sam Shepherd is such a natural underrated actor. I love Sam Shepherd. He he my favorite part that he's played, the favorite role that I've seen him in is when he was Chuck Yeger in the Right Stuff, And maybe just by virtue of that performance, I'm conditioned a bit to want to believe Sam Shepherd because he's so heroic in that movie. But initially, I mean, obviously, if there were no mystery,
deep mystery, there would there would be no movie. It would just be a pure procedural of them taking down their prime suspect. So at some point, obviously there has to be some doubtcast on the government's accusations. But initially, sure, I wanted to believe that they had the reservation's best interests at heart and they wanted to preserve the peace. But obviously, as in reality, things are seldom as they seem. In this case, obviously it's nowhere near what you think
it is, and things get pretty awful. So obviously by the end you hate Sam Shepherd's character and everything he represents because the depth of the corruption is really exposed.
But anyway, that short story long. Initially I think I did maybe because I wanted to believe it, because I think, especially when you're younger, you really can't conceive of the scope of the government's capacity for flicity and corruption, and in this case, definitely maybe there was an element of that, like I wanted to believe that they were there to
with their best interests. But I'm having said that, knowing what little I know maybe about the incident at Oglala and all of that, I knew eventually that the other Penny was the the other shoe was going to drop.
Yeah, I was actually fooled because they pulled a robodobe on me by sticking Fred Warn and the fucking goon Squad in there as the obvious villains of the piece, Ashley, Can you speak about that a little bit, the fucking goon Squad. It's like a homegrown militia where basically the government we're paying natives to fuck up other natives.
Oh yes, I mean I would say that.
Or was it the government or was there some tribal council sort of shit involved there too, like lording over your own folk.
Yes, there can be some corruption when it comes to being in those seats of power at times, especially when you got the federal government coming in your buzzing in your ear because AIM, well, I know that's like ARM, but like I refer it to AIM in reality, because like they occupied wounded me to protest the corruption and the treaty violations, and then the FBI's response during that time included heavy surveillance, armed confrontation, and leading accusations of
government like overreach. So it's like these people that were represented as AIM were trying to fight against that government narrative and the basically the over surveillance, and it's like kind of like being in what is it called, like the police state when they come in martial law type sense.
Oh like America right now? Yeah, yeah, okay, we're all natives now, and so you get that.
Like feeling of okay, we have to have this resistance against the big bad And when I saw it, like I already knew right away he was villainous because I was always taught never to trust outsiders. They don't come in here with good intentions. They're here to matipulate you.
And because even though that.
I am like half like white, because like my dad is white, my mom is full blooded Piute, I do have that duality. But I was primarily raised on the reservation around my family, and that was something that like my grandfather would say, learn the white man's like rules and play the white man's game. Be careful because like they have other intentions and they always have to always
stay one step ahead of them. And so when I saw that those like those, I guess you can say like looking at the government or governmental narrative and the native accounts, and there is like.
A way where they do come in and they manipulate and they exploit.
There's a lot of bribery going on. There's a lot of like undertable like dealing. Well, I scratch your back, you scratch my back, and so that does happen unfortunately, because that's why the activists would be showing as, oh, you're the you're the problem. We got to come after
these guys. These guys are causing problems. But really it's well, when you have the big bad like they're gonna push that narrative in manipulation and then you got there, there's these people that are there that are kind of like, I gotta stay out of this, I gotta be careful, and then you don't know who to trust and it does break It does break community in that way because there is corruption and exploitation that goes on, and that and that reality.
Fucking goons aptly named if if Okay, HP, let's you know what, everyone, Let's talk about Graham Green for a minute, shall we, Because Graham Green's fucking awesome. Ashley, you mentioned he's a he's a hero in the Native community. Could you speak more about that? Is that like, what is that level of fame like for him there?
Well, when we see one of our own kind of like out there being a celebrity being in these movies and then being highly respected. It's it's exciting. It's kind of like kind of the same thing as Adam Beach. Like a lot and especially a lot of these especially with these younger like Native actors that are coming out with these new shows and seeing them, it's just the community gets really excited because it's Okay, now we have
a representation. Now we have like natives portraying natives, actual natives. Like it's not something as much as I love Val Kilmer, it's just it's it's amazing to see our own like telling our stories, acting or acting out these these stories, and it's it's exciting. And like I will share that I remember when I was down on the Strip, hated to be there, but I had to go there for some reason.
And it was urricatives of Las Vegas.
Yeah, res the res Conference was going on, which is like a Native America economic conference, and so like natives from all over the country will come and and I remember driving down because I had to go to one of THEIRS, one of their events, and I saw like reservation dogs up on a huge billboard and like me being from the reservation didn't really have much representation seeing stuff like that, which is very not like for everybody else it's oh, it's not that Commons whatever, it's a billboard,
it's but for us, it's wow, look at us there. And I think that's and plus it's really exciting because then it really kind of ties in youth having somebody to look up to to be excited and inspired by.
And so it's just anybody.
I'm not saying, oh, Graham Green's somebody's hero, but I mean it's it's just hey, like, we have a place now, we have a platform, now, we have stories and voices now, and I think that that gets the community excited.
And I mean it does for me and my family.
HP. What's your favorite Graham Green row ooh.
This is this is definitely up there for me. My first exposure, my first the first time I ever saw him was obviously Dances with Wolves. I think that's the first time a lot of people, a lot of a lot of white people, let's say, got exposed to the greatness of Graham Green. He's he's absolutely fantastic in this. But I have to say everything I've seen him in he is awesome. Did you see a Family Tree? The Christopher Guest series, Ashley, Have you seen Family Tree? I'm
not surprised if you didn't. It was kind of not very well promoted or heralded, but just to refresh people's memories of it, the main character, Tom Chadwick, inherits this trunk that gives all these clues to his ancestors, and he gets very interested in his family tree, and he goes on all these sort of adventures investigating sometimes dead ends of where he thinks he might have come from it. At one point he believes that there's evidence that maybe
he has Native American ancestry. So he goes to a reservation and barstow and he meets up with Graham Green's character, who's the chief on the reservation, Chief Running Bull, and is Graham Green His character couldn't be more blase about because Tom Chadwick is looking for all the sort of tropes of mysticism and all of this, and it's really Chief Running Bulls tasked to sort of set this guy straight and say, no, that's not the way things are
in this reservation at all. It's actually a very simple existence. You're kind of making this out so he's very deadpaned through the whole episode, and he's really, really, really good. But I have to say, and not to say, I've seen everything that Graham Green has been in, but of the things I've seen him in, this, Thunderheart would definitely be close to the top, if not the top, because he's such a badass in this.
Yeah, you know what, I really like him in die Hard with a Vengeance.
Yes, I forgot he was in that.
That's right, right, He's just one of the fucking cops. He's so good. It's just one of the cops.
Yeah, there's there's there's nothing, but they don't call attention. He's just another cop. But he's really good in it.
As for me, this is it. Walser Crow horse Man, come on, he can can we do get an animated series? He can voice him. We can get young Walter Cross.
¶ The Importance of Native American History
Let's get old Walter crowhorse stories him teamed up with a younger Buck out there fucking SolV and shit, come on now, how about a crossover with Dark Winds. Get him on there. Everything's a multiverse these days. He's such a good cop in this.
He's the kind of cop that you would want on your case if your life depended on it, because he's turning over so many stones, he's putting in the efforts. He's intuitive as all hell. He's really really good, Father Malone.
You and I have talked about this a little bit offline, but I think we were robbed of sequel where Ray maybe goes back to the reservation and he becomes Walter Crowhorse's sidekick and they investigate other crimes and they sort of have their own little adventures because there's by the
time they have a grudging respect for each other. I just think it's I don't know, it's just so cool to see Walter Crowhorse, who is so dubious and so skeptical of Ray coming in and trying to go through this investigation, but at the end he really they have grudging respect for each other. I think that's great. It's a great relationship.
Do you think this movie would warrant a remake? H or do you think that maybe it's time we maybe get a fictionalized account of the actual events that took place in seventy three, maybe a limited mini series on Netflix or something.
I think it's certainly an idea whose time has come. I think to Ashley's point, there, there's been so many, so much more representation of Native American culture and pop culture and media. I think there's probably never been a better time to have something authentic produce. So I would co sign that for them alone.
Ashlely, I think so too, because I mean, there it's such an important part of our history and it's not really talked about, it's not really known, and I think that it's important to see that these occupations do happen. I mean even with like the occupation of Alcatraz with aim that was another big thing, that would be the Trail of Broken Treaties of course wound to me, and then the Longest Walk and of course like no Dapple m M I w all of these like huge movements
that happen within like the Native American community. I mean, I'm not just saying, oh, we just need to tell stories about them, and but it's just no, we we people people. The way that they like get access is
through film through TV shows. So to me, I see it as sort of like an education tool and sense that it can actually catch a broader audience of these key events and and actually bring in some real like perspectives and I and and to me, that's important because then, because I mean all the time, I I even to this day, I still face a lot of like awkward conversations and discrimination and microaggressions, and it's it's kind of embarrassing in a way, like I don't feel embarrassed for
I feel embarrassed for the people that they're really that unself aware and really out of.
Touch and twenty five oh yeah, and I walk up DC, so it's bad.
Well, I think one thing I think people need to realize Obviously, growing up my experience, I don't know if it was your experience for them alone, but but we were woefully uneducated about the true history of the Native Americans in this country. I think people people need to underst and is Native American history is American history, and you can't really tell the story of America without having
a tremendous focus on Native American history and concerns. So I think just on that basis alone, whether it's a remake or some sort of updated retelling of these events, I think it's tremendously important just because wouldn't I would hate to think kids, young kids in school now aren't getting a better level of education and sensitivity to these matters than I did as a kid. I think that's a real travesty if that's not the case.
I appreciate knowing that Galileo was excommunicated and when the Magna Carta was signed, but I think it's a little bit more important to know what's going on in my motherfucking country right now, even in seventy three. Look, I was going to high school in the late eighties. It was fifteen sixteen years ago the events that this movie is depicting, and I didn't know a fucking thing about it. That's crazy to me. I will tell you this. It's Ashley.
You had mentioned the occupation of Alcatraz. I didn't know about that, and actually father Malone knows this. I went for our apul vacation. We took the family to California and we went to San Francisco and we took a tour of Alcatraz and as we're taking the boat in, we get off the boat and there's a giant painted There's a water tower I think it was painted, and it says Indians Welcome. And I said, what is that? I had no idea what that was until the rangers
explained about the occupation. Of Alcatraz and I I'm sitting here thinking, I've never ever heard of that, and this is a big deal. This is an occupation that took place over the course of what almost two years, that they occupied Alcatraz and actually lived there and formed a community.
That's incredible to me that this was the first time I was hearing about it since it was think it ended in like the early seventies, right, so we're talking like fifty years and this is the first time I'd ever heard about it.
That blew my mind, you know, it blew my mind. Operating Radio Free Alcatraz at John Trudell really, Yeah, he ran the radio station during the occupation of Alcatraz and he's in this movie.
I'm not surprised. The man was a tremendous He was a force of nature.
He'll fucking sick a badger on you. Okay, that was that jump scare worked in this movie. That's the last thing I expected to happen to. That to Cooch when he put his hand in there.
I've seen this movie a dozen times. Every time it happens, it still scares me. Yeah, a bad who who? That a freaking man?
But you had a figure he probably had to go and get like a rabies shot. I mean, who knows what was involved. Scary badger. Yeah, and he's so he's getting in for the rest of the movie. He's got that ugly looking bandage on his hand to remind you that he was bitten by a badger.
Ah, well, it's only what he's doing. He fucking kills everybody else for God's sake. We don't even get to see what happens to him. Damn it. I'm a bloodthirsty American. I think we should have seen these guys just gutten down at the end. What do you think of that? Who's with me? Any final thoughts, anything we haven't talked about that you liked, didn't enjoy, didn't enjoy about these movies?
Start with you, hb Well, one thing I wanted to kind of circle back to a point that you were making a little bit earlier, Father Malone, and I'm curious to get both of you must It was the idea of these these sort of white actors playing these roles like fred Ward is obviously the biggest example of that.
But but I guess my.
Question is that my thought behind that was I think it's almost a subconscious way of casting suspicion on him because he doesn't present as outwardly as a Native American. It doesn't look like what you would expect the Native American to look like. So do you think that's at least a subconscious of not a conscious way of having the viewer focus on him as something not right about this character?
So they kind of othering the character by casting freid Ward And the part you're saying, I can buy that. Michael apt Is. I think Minchalel Aapton is a fucking fantastic filmmaker, and I think all of his intentions were good, even if sometimes it didn't pay off. Yeah, but Ashley, what do you think?
Well, like I said, it was like during like when it comes to the eighties and nineties, like that's when that shift is where. Okay, I see your intention you're trying, because before that there was it's either the cowboys and Indians and those like really horribly depicted stereotypes. And then I know that there was mysticism in this but back like comparatively to like dances of wolves.
Okay, So what what the fuck?
I ask is that the common sentiment in the Native community about Okay, good.
Yeah, yeah, we mak them a huge mockery of It's not something that we've value a lot of times. We like to joke around and talk shit. And so when I always meet people and they tell that that are non Native, they're like my favorite movies dances with wolves, and I'm just like, oh god, it's like almost as bad as like my great great grandma was the great Cherokee princess.
It's it's that that.
Cringe, that cringe, and it's just so anytime we always laugh about that, we're like, oh and it and I know that in this it did, like I said, they.
Did do their homework and they did have good intentions. So I don't have too much of ooh, it doesn't bother me too much in a sense, Yeah, miss isn't a.
Little too much.
But because I believe that when you find when you get reconnected to your culture and your cultural identity, it's not necessarily based upon all of these visions. Majority of it is like getting to know your people, having those like oral history and conversations that sort of give you
that perspective. Because when the scene of him sitting in the car talking to Sam and when he talks about like wounded me, where that start when you see that shift click, like with me and my personal experiences learning about those instances. My grandparents went to the Indian boarding schools, for example, and when I was in school, I was taught that the boarding schools were great and that they
helped our people. And then when I came home from school and was like blabbing on about it, I had to have a really hard conversation and that's when I learned that real history. And I think that it helped me gain a sense of my identity by unfortunately learning those like harsh realities. But I think that when it's being proposed in this film, it's actually like that scene is so important. That's where you find the identity. That's where you have that shift of consciousness, not the visions.
That conversation alone, That's what I believe that should have been the focus.
So, father Bill, did you what did you think about fred Ward? The reason I say obviously that it was I think it was a deliberate casting choice because it's not as if in this movie that there's not a lot of actual Native Americans in all of these starring and supporting roles. So I feel like it was a deliberate choice by Michael lapted to what you said, other
¶ Final Thoughts
the character and make him seem not quite to stand out a little bit in the midst of these militias.
Yeah, I think that's definitely possible. And I think Fred Ward's a fucking fantastic actor. And yeah, and I do think as soon as he shows up in a truck full of actual natives like toting rifles and he's the boss that I'm automatically suspect of him. So almost a little too much. It seems that actually casting a native in that bart would have would have kept the mystery going a little bit better. In a way, it might
have been a misstep altogether. I will say this. I once met Fred Ward outside my movie theater in Santa Monica, California, and I was talking to him just about bullshit, and his wife came up and she said, who's this And I said, oh, I'm nobody because I had to go start the projection start the projector, and and he went, you're not nobody. This is this is my new friend, Michael. He's the projectionist here. He's going to be showing us
a movie. And then after the movie there was a knock on the projection booth door, and it was fred Ward who came in to thank me for the delightful presentation. Fred Ward was awesome, that's all.
He's awesome to me. He'll always be Remo Williams. He's Gus Grissom's He's a he's a fantastic presence. I I love hearing those stories about what a great guy he is because it just confirms what a great what a great screen presence he is or was, rest.
In peace, speaking of great things on screen, before we go, we cannot not mention Roger deacons fucking fantastic photography here. The man can pull shadows out of shadows. It's fucking incredible. The opening shot of this movie, as tragic as it is, that we're we're seeing Leo Fastel getting gunned down, him running against the sun and then just I don't know. This is one of the best looking movies of the early nineteen nineties, if not the nineties.
I just think it's gorgeous. The cinematography is awesome. It's so rich and in some ways like very very hot, not hypersaturated, but very very that the colors are just unbelievable. Everything pops. The landscape looks amazing.
Actually, you're a nerd.
Well, Like I mentioned before, I really did appreciate it because there is a lot of scenes, especially like kind of that slow shot over the canyons and like catching the landscapes itself, because that, to me is like what really brings in like home, like the beauty of it, and I think those are probably like my favorite parts of that is just seeing those breathtaking scenes. And you're right,
even though that the shooting scene is pretty graphic. I always say it's, oh, it's like trauma porn, but that I mean the way that it was shot. I was like the colors and watching watching it go down, It's just it. Even though it's like a traumatic event. He did really have a good eye on how that looks.
Oh my god, it's so gorgeous. And now when you think about it, technically he's squibbed up. There's no digital blood, so as he's flying through the air and getting shot and the blood is splat. Oh, it's such a gorgeous piece of film. I'm sorry. The subject matter is so fucking horrible. What are you gonna do? It's art, Yeah, it's it ain't always clean it's quite frequently messy. Anything else anyone wants to mention about Thunderheart before we wrap
things up? No, oh, I think he covered it all right on okay, Ashley, Are you anywhere to coeople contact you, whether they want to find you or you anywhere you're on Instagram or something. There's there some tribal website I'm not plugging correctly that you can get some word out and get some support or something.
I mean, well, I have a lot.
I'll just well, if you just want to contact me directly, I guess on a professional.
Level, there's like LinkedIn.
Oh, I have that if you want to talk about more. Because I was on tribal council, I am a prominent person in my community. I do run these programs and I do have a big connection here in Las Vegas with the Native community.
But on a personal level, just hit me up on Instagram at little Miss Phones.
HB. Where can people find you when you're not hanging out with me talking about John Fusco movies all fucking day like a bunch of lunatics.
We are a bunch of lunatics. I also co host the Night Mister Walters Taxi podcast with of course you fatherm alone as if we don't have enough content being generated on the post.
Too much, I'm tired, man.
No, it's great, it's invigorating, love to do it. It's and also I'm I'm an occasional guest on the Culture Cast with Chris Dashue. I also host the Noise Junkies music podcast and last but not least, I have a band campsite hpmusicplace dot bandcamp dot com.
As for me, if you want to support Midnight to view and go to Patreon dot com slash follow them alone. You get episodes early and you get subscriber only shows. Or if you don't have any money and none of us do anymore, then you could just give us a five star review or like it, or share it or send it to a friend. I don't know, give us a hand. But we're gonna go out with a line from Thunderheart, Which will it be? Who knows?
It's a nice truck Rarever'd you steal it?
But you might want to see this what's going on.
It's a power.
That that eagle feather you found gave me a little chub, didn't it. Well, we all have feathers from the same eagle. We share everything on the rads.
Those are my sunglasses I traded Grandpa.
I'll trade with you.
That's a rock your nuts.
He's a Ray Bans Jesus, you ain't got nothing on Jimmy, do you no cop?
Fleeing justice, assault with a deadly weapon, assault with intent to kill is nothing sedition.
That scum is an enemy of the United States.
You know, Ray, we were kids. We used to play cowboys and Indians. I was always Gary Cooper. I didn't want to be an in the government boarding schools. Make sure that cut off my hair. I watched my mouth, I was soaping. I spoke my own language, my own language.
Ray.
When the armed warriors came here was lack an awakening, got the people proud of their heritage, their elders language. And you call them enemies. Tough call all the way around. Anyway, Now you just keep on doing that. Tomorrow morning, I'll have Leo's murderer in the Bear Creek Tribal jail. Screw your jurisdiction.
I'll listen to you with any of its. You're the deep ship.
Don't assume it.
Stuns. London