Loud and Quiet presents Midnight Chats.
Hey listeners, welcome to Midnight Chats. Hope you're doing well. Tonight's episode of the podcast features not one, but two firsts for us. We've never had two different artists on together on the same episode before, so that's exciting. And also until now, we've never welcomed on an artist more than once, so that's all about to change those We either a good memory or maybe you're just very loyal. We'll know that David Kumu was our guest on the
very first Midnight Chats back in February twenty sixteen. We sounded quite different then. I'm not going to blee on about how impressive Dave's career CV is because that's all in the first episode, but his story and that chat, especially his recollections of his close brush with death a few years back, remains a pretty extraordinary listen I think. At least I'm delighted to say. Joining us for the first time is Rosie Low from Devon but now based
in London. Rosie released her debut album Control in twenty sixteen, and in the run up to recording this chat, I went back and listened to that and was reminded of just how strong that album is. In the time since then, she's continued to study psychotherapy alongside doing her music. She talks a bit about that in this and it's really fascinating, and she also presents a show on the all female online radio station Foundation FM. Check that out if you
haven't already. But the point of getting them together like this is that Rosie and Dave aren't just great mates, but also wrote Rose's new album You Together Spelt Wyu. It's out on the tenth of May, and bird Song, one of the tracks from it is an early favorite
of mine from this year. So yeah, lots of conversation about that, the origins of their friendship, getting the Mercurious Jay Electronica involved on the album, Dave's relatively new fatherhood, Rosie discussing vulnerability and openness in the creative process, all sorts. Before we get into this, we try and make all of the episodes sound as good as they possibly can
on midnight chats. So I am annoyed that at one point a workman turned up outside our office window with a giant saw to cut sheets of metal, but I wasn't going to argue with him for obvious reasons, so apologies for any brief background noise you might hear. As Ever, if you haven't caught the episodes from this series of the podcast so far, please do go back and listen. Sharon Vanatten last week was really funny. But let's get into this Midnight Chats episode seventy, ticking off not one
but two firsts. Rosie Low and David Kumu. You did the first ever episode of Midnight Chats.
I don't believe it.
You're running out of guests in the universe's music.
I thought you were so good that we just had to have you back.
It was.
It was three years ago, almost to the day and bad. We sat here in our humble office in East London, loud and quiet HQ, and you came in on a miserable winter's night to record the first episode. And I will always be grateful because the podcast obviously didn't exist before you came in, so I couldn't send you anything and say this is what it sounds like. He took a leap of faith and he came in and that was the first episode.
It was really scary for me what I was getting into. I was actually telling Rosy about it today. I was trying to I thought we actually recorded it around midnight.
We did record it late at night.
Okay, And that wasn't because I got the time wrong, Because it's not because do you think you said come in at eleven late?
Eventually, I'm just let's just eating my dinner. Really, sadly, I'm like, he still hasn't turned up. I think he might have got the wrong end of the stick. No, we did. We did record it late. It was late night by and.
It was a miserable night and I was really happy to be here. Yeah.
Yeah, Well we've gone on to make make a lot of episodes since then. But if people are listening to this who are only joining us more recently, do urge you to go back and listen to that episode because it's it will have a special place for me because not only because it was the first one, but I do think it's a really great episode for to have you on and to hear about kind of all of the things that you've done in your in your musical
career to date. But it is special to have you both on because you're both good friends as well as being collaborators, and it's a timely moment to have you on together, because you both just worked together on Rosie, your new album. Can you remember where you first met when we first got introduced? Was that a long time ago?
Well, we both kind of have.
We both have kind of differing views from all memories of when we first met, so I think we did kind of cross paths quite a lot over quite a few times. But my first real memory is in hanging out in Dave's flat. I was I went around and David just had an accident. They'd broken a had like a leg in a cast, and I went around and we just hung out and played some music and ate some strawberries and some doughnuts.
I did watching out. Not much has changed. Yeah, that was a really special moment. We'd met a few times before. I remember because you told me that I sometimes go into Goldsmiths to talk about and ask questions about performance and creativity, and they keeps sort of winging me back in, and it's always really.
Fun to go in and hang out with those guys.
And I think one year I did it and Rosie was in one of those sessions, but we didn't meet at that time. My first memory of Rosie coming into sort of my consciousness was I was having a meeting at Domino. Rosie's manager at the time came in to play me some of her music, and I think, maybe you just sort of really started making music at that point,
that in that way. Yeah, And I heard these these pieces of music and I thought they were really special and extraordinary, and Rosie's manager was asking if i'd be up for kind of getting together with her and collaborating with her, and I remember specifically thinking at that point that this was someone who didn't really need to collaborate with anybody. They were just exploring their own creativity and their own voice, and it was a really strong and
intriguing one. And actually I remember my first instinct being I wouldn't want to get in the way of that. Actually, this is someone who should just be like encouraged to continue exploring themselves because it's really fascinating and that's going to lead to something really special. And then we kind of met some time after that, and at a certain point Rosie came around to basically look after me when I was convalescing, and I remember that that was a really significant visit, just because.
I feel like.
It sort of correlated to the experience of listening to her music in the sense of getting a really strong sense of who this person is. I remember feeling that listening to those demos those early days, and when she came to my house at a time when I was feeling pretty vulnerable and I didn't really know her that well, but I felt so at ease and so looked after, and we just had such a lovely time, and she was so considerate and kind of loving and natural. I
just thought, what a great person. Really lucky to have sort of cross parles with this person. And I don't think at that point we knew, you know, what our creative connection would be, but I just remember thinking I'd love this person to be a part of my life basically. So that was a really special day. So thanks for.
Doing the washing up.
I think creatively after that, I think that, I mean, I'd written right thing, and i'd actually pitched it, pitched the whole thing down. That's how I wrote it was so my voice was my male voice, as it were. And this is kind of like, you know, I mean, I can't believe it was so long ago, but it was probably at seven eight years ago now, so there wasn't loads of people pitching everything down the label or Domino.
At the time, We're just like, oh, sure, And I played to Dave and saying that this is what I imagine he was really digging it, and then he I think you took that one off before we started working with Quertz and you did some stuff to because I just remember getting something, Dave sending something back.
And me feeling like, damn, this is this is phenomenal.
Like is that I've always felt like that with Dave is like that every single decision he makes is a creative one. He doesn't overdo it, which in my experience with other people that I've worked with, can often be that people do things for the.
Sake of doing them.
But I feel like with Dave you get an incredible amount of intu intricacies, well big, but always for the reason for the song and for the narrative and for the heart of what the song's about. And I've never really had that experience with anyone else yet of passing something over in it, coming back and feeling like that's beyond what I imagine this could be.
It's interesting you say that because both of you have collaborated with a lot of people in the past. You know, you're very open minded to when you make in music to bring other people into the process. How easy is it to find people who you feel so comfortable with that are so ultimately on a similar wavelength.
It's just really special when that happens, and probably quite rare. But I do think that it's possible to have a disposition that makes it kind of clear that that's what you're looking for and that's what you're interested in, and that you want to cultivate relationships of that like quality. So for me, collaboration is like a big part of my life and I'm looking for high quality collaborative experiences and some are and some aren't. But I think that
exploration is valid. And I think what you said about, you know, I think having the tools and the desire to cultivate trust and to be patient and to make space for something like that to happen is like a big part of that equation. And when you find someone who's willing to go on that journey with you, that's something to be treasured basically, and with Rosie we have
that in a really really unique way. There are ways of exploring things creatively that in my collaboration with Rosie that I don't feel like it just I could do with anyone else. And it's because of who she is and what she's interested in and how she wants to express herself and where she feels able to be liberated
and take risks and be vulnerable. I really really respond to that, and it's it feels like an enormous privilege to be allowed into that and to be allowed to sort of attempt to facilitate that or contribute to that, or however you want to kind of frame it. So yeah, I guess, I guess I feel like it's it's a very special thing that I will never take for granted wherever I find it. But I'm always looking for it.
I'm always looking for a quality connection basically. But if I find it, I'm gonna going to hang onto it for day life because it's a really precious thing basically.
Yeah.
And also, and like on top of that, I'd say that me and mine Day's relationship has grown through the music that we've made, like our collaborative relationships. So for the first album, I wrote most of it on my own and they've produced it, so it was so collaborative. But this album we actually wrote together for the first time, like songwriting together, which I was I was shit scared about because I was like this, you know, he's one of my best friends, you know, one of my musical heroes.
He's like my collaborator, and I was like this, this better work out. It did, and I think that we had to find our way of doing that. And sometimes it was giving each other space, and sometimes it was being in a room together, and sometimes.
It was like creating more structure, and sometimes it wasn't.
But that's something that we were able to work out because there was already an understanding there of what we've been through before. So had we gone into just writing together in the way that we have for this latest album without the kind of seven years of growing our relationship as friends and collaborators, it might sound completely different.
But what I feel like so so grateful for and very very lucky is the fact that we've you know, we're growing together as collaborators and that that journey's continuing, because I feel like these days there's so so many artists that and you know, I think it's encouraged by labels and stuff a lot of the time, which is like you know, new album, new producer, this is the next hot person going with them, speed date the album, speed date writing sessions. You know, new sound, new album,
new sound, and that therefore means new people. And I just feel like there can be a lack of long term collaborative relationships where you grow together, and I feel really lucky to have had that with Dave and hopefully continue.
It for my career.
What you're describing is kind of the antithesis of that you just said there, that the speed date way of
making music. We had Coachy Radical was one of the episodes on this series of Midnight Chats, and he was talking about his collaborative past and some of the positions he's found himself in where it is that thing where you're you join a writing camp for a morning or an afternoon and you're giving a theme and you're like, it's like go away and make a song for somebody you've never met in a report back in two hours, which is of the spectrum we've just been talking about,
is the opposite end of what you're describing, which is like create a sort of deep meaning for friendship, to to create trust and then you know, open up the process where you've got to know each other, and it's it's it's the opposite end of the spectrum of that, isn't it basically does that type of songwriting? What do you think of that? Is that that's kind of like does the idea of doing that kind of thing? You know,
would you rule out ever doing that thing? Because this is the way that you do it feels much more in keeping with the way that you want to do things.
I think there's a there's an aspect where you have to come to terms with who you are and recognize yourself, recognize where your strengths lie, recognize where you want to progress as a person basically creatively. And what I know about myself through kind of various experiences is that I lean towards the type of process that we've described, and
I'm interested in that. I'm interested in the long term and the big picture and on going on a journey and making Rosie's first album, I had dreams of making more albums with her. I have dreams of her developing and just making her own albums and producing her own records. And I can't wait to hear that. And there are all these things that I see that it's over like a long period and that excites me. I'm that's just my nature, and I think there are issues for me
around the sort of speedier process that you describe. I mean, I know that a lot of the industry is built on that, really and there's clearly like a place for it. But my issue with it is that I think if that kind of obfuscates any other type of process, you know, if there isn't room for other processes, that's not so great because people are unique and there isn't like a
sort of one size fits all mold. And I think when we stop engaging with artists and creative people and working out like what they actually need to be the best version of themselves and to express themselves really well and to work out what their identity is, if we're not supporting that and there's just this industry around it that basically kind of overrides that, I think that's really problematic, and sometimes the speedier thing can really sort of exacerbate
that that kind of way of thinking. But I will also say that I've had many moments in my own sort of creative process where I've just written for people like imagining, oh my god, what would it be like if like Beyonce like saying this tune or you know, or like when I got invited into like Grace Jones's world in the first instant I ever, her producer said to me, you know, if you want to like submit some something that some ideas for this album, then you know,
go ahead. And I immediately went ran bath and sat in the bath and then sang into like my phone imagining what if Grace Jones like sang this melody, do you know what I mean? It's like, so I'm really into that. I think that's a wonderful thing, but it just can't be like the only thing. That's when it
becomes a problem for me. And I've personally found it that I don't necessarily operate at my peak powers when I'm in those types of situations where it's about its product orientated, you know, it's about getting a result at the end of the day over exploring something that might might just need a bit more space to like come to the surface.
You know.
That's yeah, that's kind of where I stand personally. But some people have incredibly home skills and they're able to go into situations like that and make extraordinary things and like power to them. But I think my strengths kind of like elsewhere and my interests as well.
I think it is about knowing where your strengths lie.
Like I know that as a collaborator with Dave, like with my music, Dave is like kind of is at his best when I give him space, trust, faith, space, and I think vice versa is the is the same
in our relationship. I personally, like I don't really respond very well to pressure, do I Dave writing and I kind of I kind of freeze up, like I need a little bit of pressure because otherwise, you know, it could just you know, I could probably you know, get into watch too many series and stay in bed all day now jog, But like that kind of pressure of being in a room of lots of producers, jump in the booth. That's one way to make me run really
really fast marathon away from that situation. Personally, I've been in those situations before and it's like, let's write a song about this, And my response is, but why and what does that mean?
And what's the bigger meaning behind this?
And why and why again?
Why it's a.
Music for me is such a deep thing.
So the idea of songwriting as a craft is something that I'm so passionate about.
It's so passionate about.
I could talk about for five hours about different people songwriting, But the only songwriting that really I'm passionate about is the shit that I believe in and I know in like five seconds if I believe it. And that's usually because it's come from a place of honesty. Yeah, and the idea of like, Okay, let's write a song about this word because it's a good sounding word. Although like some people can like completely bring an honesty and an authenticity to that. For me, it needs to come from
somewhere that already exists at the moment. Maybe that will change in time.
But yeah, let's talk about this new album. You you wrote it together, So what was the start point for it? You decided you were going to collaborate in the writing sense, What was day one it looked like, did you sit down together at the kitchen table, did you have a list of ideas?
What was it like, what do you say as the starting for.
The way in your spare room upstairs in your flat And it was really hot summer day, and so all the doors were open, and like it was really loud because if anyone's been to Deptford, you know, the vibe, and there was drilling going on at the time. Dave lives by the train station, so that was you could hear the trains going by, and he was playing just lots of chords and I.
Was like, oh, like that one.
And we recorded it all on my iPhone or something, and I had a few ideas, I think, and then I went home and I kind of cut them off at the end of the day and I came back with the chorus for.
The way and a few other ideas, and you were like, no.
I like that, that's our starting point for this. And then we just went around that for like kind of the whole for like a few hours, and then we had the verse.
Isn't everything?
Yeah, did you set on like a pattern of working, as in you had a set of time you were like, we're going to work on this nine to five, or we're going to.
It was.
Years. Presumably it was just drab grabbing the time when you could then and it or it would it come to eventually.
Be Well, basically, I just remember us kind of making the commitment to one another that we were going to do it one way or another. And again that's a really empowering thing for me, like when you when you find.
That with a person where you can just make a commitment. The world is a crazy place.
You don't know what's going to happen and how people are going to respond, or what teams are going to be doing, or what labels are going to be doing, and it just felt great to just say to each other, let's make a record, you know, like come, come and shine. It was a crazy time for me. I had a lot of things going on. I was moving out of one studio, trying to build another. I didn't really have a base of operations. Yeah, in that time, also had a baby and didn't have a midlife crisis, or maybe
that was my manifestation of mid life crisis. I don't know, but you know, it was a really huge time of like transition for me. And it's a real testament to Rosie that she kind of walked through that with me. And that's really special for me as well because it's that's in this record in a way. So I remember we were working in all kinds of places. Sometimes we'd be at the church, at pulled up with studio, sometimes we were at my flat. Sometimes we're at Rosies flat
sometimes I was in a cafe on headphones. We were making up as we go along in terms of the structure and just trying to create the space and the quality of process that that we needed to make that music. And because the nature of our collaboration was kind of going deeper in a sense, I felt like I just, yeah, I really wanted to give Rosie whatever she needed and whatever I could for her to kind of work out what she wanted to say next and how she wanted
to say it. And it's I think when you were close to a person, you kind of you have these sort of instincts. I remember feeling quite early on, like really probably even that day when we were sort of starting to look at chords for or ideas for that song, the way I remember just feeling, I think there's I think we're going to go to like a brighter place, and I think it's going to be like earthier or so I just had these kind of and maybe there's
going to be more of like a live feeling. I just had these kind of instincts that these might be things that Roe would want to explore, like in the next bit, the next phase of her output. And yeah, so it just became about working out how to how to find that palette, how to inspire whatever needed to come next. Basically, So yeah, it was. It wasn't without
its challenges. I think it would have been easier if I'd been saying more settled, if I'd had my space ready and whatever, and then we could have got on with things in a more structured way.
I think it would be a different record.
This would have been a different record. And actually the way things went and the time that it took allowed a space for something to happen that obviously just needed to happen. And again, coming back to your earlier question about kind of the writing camp approach versus some another type of approach. The thing that freaks me out about that is, like, you know, I see good things happening all the time because they've been given space and they've
been nurtured. So if you don't give things space, if you're working in an industry where space is at such a premium that it almost can't it just can't exist because everything needs to be like banging, product driven and it's got to sound finished like by the end of the day, and the label needs to hear this and you know, there's so much competition that every artist has to put out a thousand tracks a day and two
millions social media posts just to kind of exist. I think the danger is that you there's no space for these really special things to actually come to the surface. And because some things require a lot of space, you know, and it can take a while to like to sort of dial down the noise and reconnect with yourself and go, actually, who am I and what is my identity and what is unique about how I express myself versus all this
other stuff in the world. And I really felt that that's what happened over that period of like a couple of years of us kind of like foraging around in the undergrowth trying to work out how to make a record, you know, in you know, the next chapter of our collaboration, and yeah, when I listen to it now, that's what I hear in it. So I'm really proud of that as well. It just feels like it's a real reflection
of like going somewhere. We actually went somewhere and we dug in and it's a different feeling to what we did the first time round, and there's a progression before.
I ask you a little bit about stuff outside of you. Tell me a little bit about the people that you also brought on board because you co wrote the record. But then there are other people on the album. Jamie WiM's on there, Jamie Liddell's on there. Jay electronicas on there. I thought Jay Electronica, being a Je Electronica fan, I have recently come to think that I don't think he exists. He's he's the man in the myth, isn't he He's
like the banks of him. Oh yeah, there you go. Yeah, tell me a little bit about those people that you brought on board, and where did you find Jee Electronica?
Well, it's actually for the Way the Way that were the one that we started in Dave's flat, and it's a love song, like it's a it's a positive love song, which.
You know, I just don't fucking do that, but I do now.
I've always I always resist that kind of just I just feel like I'm I'm got this innate feeling of resistance to anything that's like just inherently positive because I feel like it's cheesy. R I actually come to the accept that cheesy is fucking brilliant.
Yeah, And it's just authentic because that's the way you felt when you.
Were absolutely and I'm in a place and very in love, and you know, the whole album is kind of about the kind of complexities of love and relationships and anyway, So that on that song, me and Dave are like, we've got to get a rapper on this.
You know.
Dave is always encouraging me, like, who's the dream? Think big, don't restrict your vision. So I was like, well, obviously Andre three thousand, Jay, Electronica, Tiler the creator, and Kendrick and so I went into a label meeting and I was like, these are the people that I want. I was like, you know, maybe maybe the Electronica. They were like, oh, he's going to be he doesn't do stuff, he's going to be too expensive.
You know, he might not. And I was like, well, that's a lot of speculation. Can we try, And there.
Was quite I was met with quite a lot of resistance, and then they did finally sent it to I was like, let's just try it might like the track, and then we got an email back saying he loves it.
He's going to do a verse.
And then a few months later I was thinking, well, you know, take things with a big pinchure, so that might not happen, it might happen.
I got I learned one day.
I woke up and it was in my inbox direct from him, and literally I was like, I played that, and I don't think I've jumped to that high for a long time.
That it was.
It's absolutely incredible and just phenomenal.
How much.
He's picked up in his verse from the whole album. He mentioned songs in on the album that he doesn't even know that existed, so like, it's like something really spiritual happened with that verse, because honestly, I've read those lyrics so many times and thought someone's tricked me.
What if he'd been like somehow like watching the process and it'd had like an innate understanding of what had been.
Going on and given all my album lyrics and had some like overarching meaning of what exactly what I've been through in this one verse is absolutely.
Kind of I still can't believe it.
Actually, you know, we ended up with these two versions of the song, and I wanted to see if there was a way to blend them together so that it went into like the slower version. A certain point in the tune, and when I was kind of cobbling it together as an experiment, I was like, oh, it'd be amazing.
I just thought I heard I heard Jay's voice basically in that mix, and I thought it would be interesting to have that type of element come into a track where you didn't expect it to be there basically, and I just thought he would be perfect, Like the tone of his voice, the character of how he expresses himself. It was just like my first choice. And we had this discussion, but basically about our favorite raffers.
We've always connected Jay, I haven't really, Yeah, we always have.
And and similarly, like when it became a reality and I heard what he'd done there was it was such an affirmation of so many things because, as Rosie says, it reflects so much of the kind of intention of
the record as a whole. You know, so often with those sorts of contributions, when someone like that does agree to like jump on the track, it's like about getting paid, and maybe there's not that much thought goes into like what's being expressed, and it's just like everyone thinks it's cool, but it's actually not that deep.
So but to hear I can hear.
He's enjoying himself on that track, and he's enjoying his imagination and he's responding to like what's there and he's going deep, which is kind of like what the whole record's about. And it was really a great moment to hear that, you know, those few that just that moment being so such an engaged explosion of creativity. It's just like, yeah, it's the stuff and dreams really, So that's yeah, really has a really special place in my heart.
It's really cool.
Outside of the making of the record, people that have listened to the first episode that we did in midnight Chats will remember you and I, Dave talking about some major kind of life altering events. We went deep on life and then and deep deep meaning yeah, yeah, outside of creating this album together the last couple of years, Dave, you've already mentioned it, like the significant things that's happened to both of you. Dave, you become a father since then three years is it?
How is your He's going to be two at the end of opal Okay.
Yeah, so that is subsequent how started.
Basically the best thing that's ever happened to me. It's man, I don't know.
I don't want to. I could very easily end up in sounding like I don't know, sort of going into sort of some sort of smug, self indulgent like parent, you know, the equivalent of like bombarding your listeners with images of.
My child or something.
But he is right now, guys.
Can you see this? Can you see this? Can you see how cute it is? All I can this. All I can say is that I don't know.
It's it's strange the culture around sort of parenthood and people's kind of anxieties around it and whatever people might think that stuff means. And obviously lots of people have kids, don't they, And we were all babies once. I will just say, for me, the experience has been the equivalent of falling in love, like over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. It's like, every single day
it's like falling in love. And I guess in this, in this early sort of stage of of my cub's life, he's changing so much all the time, so maybe that's part of it. That's why it's so heightened, that sense of like, oh my god, you just had a nap and then you suddenly you've got an fro or like, you know, now you're doing this incredibly cute thing or whatever. Part of me thinks it's kind of a function of evolution, you know, so that we protect them and nurture them,
we have to be in love with them. Man, that shit works. Basically. I'm yeah, he's the upple of my eye. He's just the best thing ever. And he something that I really love about being a parent. You know, it's not without its challenges, and it stretches you and does all kinds of things. But the thing that I really love is that it compels you to be in the moment. You know, babies, nothing will do that better than a baby.
It's like they.
Demand your your engagement and your presence. And the point at which it becomes miserable is if you don't respond to that. But if you respond to that, you are going to go on the wildest trip. Like they will show you how to be in the moment. And that's really you know, that's really what I want to build my life around. Anyway. So if I've got this like living, breathing entity that just helps me do that every day, I'm like, yeah, it's it's so cool. It's so cool, and he's just such a dude and.
So much fun.
It's really would like running out when you were like working at any points kind of.
No, he's well no, because he wasn't really at that point. So he's still so young, and I'm sure he's probably gonna end up like playing drums.
And he's so.
Gost already. He's on the pots and pans on.
My washing machine.
They might have an interested in electronic music, that's yeah. I think, I don't know. We'll see. I'm curious to see where he where he goes. But yes, it's been really, really wonderful. He's amazing and I can't It's just weird thing that happens when they kind of you know, descend to Earth or however it is that they appeared where you were. Just once they're there, you're like, what you weren't here? Like my life just the idea of my life before just seems like some sort of empty husk.
It's just so much richer now. Yeah, it's brilliant.
Crazy outside of the making of the album. Last few years, am I right? Thinking you went and studied you kind of like qualifications. We'll tell me a little bit about.
That what I am studying to be a psychotherapist. So it's been in like quite a huge journey of self development. It's definitely been something that's influenced my music and every part of me actually in my process as well, and I'm sure it will continue. So I've done the first three years and I've got four more years to go, and yeah, it's been amazing. It's the other thing other than music really that I all I want to do is that like read about relationship therapy and psychosexual That's
like what I want to go down, go into. But I just read like a thousand books on the mind and emotions. I just find it so interesting and listen to podcasts and kind of every other second I have, so like my dream is to be making music, and those two things combined, I think I'd be a very happy girl.
You mentioned it's affected the or change perhaps the way that you approach your own creative process in what ways, Like how's that kind of Can you think of examples of the way that's happened or changed even in the last safe for example, approaching and writing on your first album as opposed to writing on this one. Given that you've been studying the whole way through. How is that? Are those changes major? Are they minor? Or are they difficult to articulate?
Well, I think it's changed my even what the subject of the record completely because the records about love and the complexities of love and my relationship with my partner. We've been going to relationship therapy for the last five years, so that's had such a big influence on it anyway, But basically just.
Self awareness. So I've got I know that I've got.
Abilities, particularly when I'm like recording my relationship with my voice. I'd say like it's really opened that up in terms of like resisting messiness and which can sometimes come with an openness as well. You know, we all know that like to be to kind of be free, it's sometimes messy and it's sometimes chaotic, and I think that there's been like an ongoing resistance of that in relation to my voice at times, in the in relation to how I record myself, how I want to hear myself sing.
So at one point in the album process, it kind of all came a part of the seems for me.
And I was like, what is this? Who am I? Where am I in these songs.
I'm I think, I'm I think I'm going to quit or die or something. I don't know what's going on, but this is It all came a part of the scenes, and that's because I was processing something really deep and basically thanks to my therapists and the fact that I was studying, so I had like a huge support network and my boyfriend and Dave was it was all about reminding me.
You know.
Dave sat down with me and was like, Okay, tell me, what are these songs that we don't know about?
And I was like, I don't know. He was like, okay, let's go through them. What's this song about?
And I was like, well, this song is about my relationship with Jacob in this way or my relationship with this person. And as soon as I said it, I was like, oh, like, it's entirely it's entirely accurate and present and I'm holy in it. But I forgot because I was going through a process of kind of of like self analysis. So basically, I guess what I'm saying is like it all feeds into each other, and as soon as I've gone through that process, it was kind
of about owning it again. Re owning the songs for where I was at at the point and being like I guess it allowed me to be like to create space to have more of a freedom to be able to make mistakes. So that was a really long winded way. Basically, I think I'm a perfectionist in like a deep, deep way, and I think that that's down if I'm going to go into self analysis, I think that's down to like having a lack of security sometimes and feeling like I
need to control things to create that security. Through my process of becoming a therapist, you have to do a lot of self development. I think that I've I'm still working through that stuff, but I think that it's allowed me some space to be able to make mistakes and for that to be okay. Yeah, and some more self compassion within that, and vocally it's freeing me up in a huge way that I've never really experienced before, and I'm actually really enjoying singing.
I can also get a word on your work with Foundation FM. Yes, so you've done a handful of shows. Yeah. Yeah, So for people that have not come across Foundation FM, of our listeners that haven't heard about it, just tell them a little bit about it and also why you want to get involved.
Well, it's an all female platform radio station set up by some incredible women that have been in radio and have you know, been surrounded by kind of male voice and radio and felt like there's there needs to be more of a space for a platform for women that is just totally supporting each other, having a voice for different women from different backgrounds, particularly in London where it's like such a kind of you know, stirring pot for that.
So they asked me if I wanted to do a show, and like absolutely, that's Like just to be involved in a platform where it's like female in the most supportive way excites me, Like I want to meet more incredible women and support them and feel supportive and create kind of We've just got like an amazing people around us, and the more people that we can meet in terms of like that have kind of you know, exciting and
different perspectives on things, the better I think. So, Yeah, I've got a monthly show on there and I bring on guests and my show is kind of focused on I'm interested on processes that musicians go through that people might not hear about and that might come from a writing process that might come from the day job that so many musicians have but don't talk about, just to be able to make the rent of their rent or
to put bread on the table. So that's kind of what I'm interested going a little bit deeper than what can often feel like happens on radio. But although now this podcast everyone's going deeper.
Way.
Yeah, I just wanted to say, though, just what you were saying for about all kind of growing understanding of yourself and how that's impacted your creativity and perfectionism. I just think it's such an important area to have, like a dialogue the way, because I think a lot of people suffer from this and struggle with this stufe, especially in this day and age where technology kind of gives
us a certain illusion of control over processes it. You know, just thinking about what happened when we came in here, I'm like worry because my phone's running out of battery whause he's like backing stuff up. It's like this whole thing. It's like technology which is meant to kind of three us up, seems to be feeding into these really sort
of actually restrictive tendencies. And what was interesting at that point that Rowe was very bravely describing where things kind of fell apart at the scenes, which was a really necessary part of the process because without that happening, we wouldn't have gotten through to the other side. And I'm really glad she kind of had this that she needed
through that. But what was interesting to me was that actually, you know, there's a striving for perfection or betterment, and actually it can end up restricting us and throttling our expression. What's interesting to me is actually what happens when we start to let go of the idea of perfection basically, and how quickly in this instance, like for me, there was such a There was actually over the a very short period like two weeks, there was a hugely significant shift.
And when we spent that time that where I was describing just looking at the material and sort of trying to work out where she sat within it and what she was saying. As soon as those anxieties were taken out of the equation, she was actually able to follow through with what she wanted to express. But actually with those things in place, it became impossible for her to
complete what she was saying. It was like this massive obstacle that actually stopped her from owning what she was saying, and she needed to find deliberation and confidence and freedom
to let go of anxieties around like perfection. And I think it's a really really common thing, especially in this day and age, and it feels to me like a really important thing to talk about because I think people need to they need to understand the dynamics of that stuff so that they can make those shifts in their own lives and in their own creativity and whatever they're undertaking. It was just incredibly exciting for me to see Rosie find a space for herself where she could actually finish
what she was saying. It didn't have to hit a wall and then be sort of covered up by the stuff.
It was like, actually, no, this is what I'm saying.
This is cheesy, and this is positive for like this is you know, and let's follow that through and let's actually own that. And I think that's that's something that I really feel very strongly in this music that we've made together.
Just to finish on some quick fire questions that I want you both to answer, it's brief as you can. Your favorite track on.
You Oh so mean? I don't like any of them.
I'm gonna go for it changes every day, it changes every day, but I'm going to go for Mango because I feel like it's at the heart of the record and it embodies there's something spiritual through it that embodies everything else the record. When you're writing a record that feels like there's a middle point, for me that that was like the middle point for it.
Okay, Yeah, I mean I kind of agree with that. That is what it came into my head. And I'm like, I'm lying on one level. It's not I don't have a favorite, but there there is just there's something going on with that tune that is just yeah, it's the only Rosy could do that track. And I love those moments. I love it when it's just like I feel like that about the whole record. But it's very intense on that tune. It's like, whoa, I don't know anyone else
they could make that song. I'll say that stuff in that way, be that bold, melodically express that stuff. Lookally, I just don't know anyone else I can do that, and I just I love that. That just gives me, you know, tingles. That's kind of where it's at for me. I always just want to see people do what only they can do.
One album from the last twelve months that isn't one that either of you have made that's really you just absolutely love and would like to recommend. Yeah, yeah, you guys, you're so on the same way. There be another so we've got from Dave.
Yeah, I'm sorry, that's not fair.
You can both choose the same record as.
Fine exciting thing that's.
Happened for a long time.
And what's the best podcast that you've both been onto together.
We've only ever been one other, So this is the.
One that's exactly the answer that I was leading you into.
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