Loud and quiet presents Midnight Chats, no bullshit.
Those were the first two words that came to mind when I was thinking about tonight's guest on Midnight Chats. That's how I describe her, and I mean that as the highest possible compliment someone who says exactly how she feels. Last week, I met up with Shirley Manson just the night before the Garbage Front woman had been presented with the Icon Award at this year's V five Enemy Awards, and that's exactly what she is. An icon and she's
been doing her iconic thing for three decades now. On stage at the ceremony in London, Jenny Beth from Savage gave her the statue, and to be honest, I couldn't put it any better than she did. On the evening Chilly Manson, she said, is a woman with grace and strength through every stage of her life and career who taught me that I know that I can do and
be whoever I want. The next day, before she stepped on a plane to travel back to her home in Los Angeles, we recorded this conversation and we got into a lot more than any other midnight Chat I can remember Apart from the awards night, we spoke about her recollections of meeting Marquis Smith from The Fall, who recently
passed away. She does a great impression of him, by the way, the lack of opportunities for and the coverage of women in music, particularly older women in music, the Me Too campaign and the current global conversation around gender inequality, and just how much more that has to be done on that front. Being a British citizen living in Donald Trump's America as well, and a lot of other stuff too. I should also say this is a special one for me.
This year, twenty eighteen, Garbage will celebrate the twentieth anniversary of their album Version two point zero, and that's got great memories for me. I didn't mention this when I met up with Shirley, but my first ever gig was Garbage at Wembley Arena when they were touring that album.
I went with my big brother and his mate. My parents dropped us off and waited around the corner in the local TGI Fridays, and I remember the gig being amazing, exceptionally loud, and I've been to a lot of shows since, but I'll definitely never forget that one. So a real hero of mine on this episode of the podcast, an artist who's passionate, fearless and inspiring. This is Shirley Manson on Midnight Chaps. Shirley Manson, Welcome to Midnight Chats.
Thank you very much.
Fresh from winning an Icon award at this year's Enemy Awards. That was last night. How congratulations, thank you. How is your evening?
We had fun. It was fun.
You know, it was.
Surreal and sweet, and you know it was cool to be in a room full of musicians that I admire and to be part of that community's a privilege, I think. So, yeah, it was great.
Was it an opportunity to meet any old friends or meet any or make any new acquaintances? What did the evening entail? Yeah?
I mean we bumped into some old pals, some old enemies, met some new fabulous people. But yeah, it was great.
Jenny Bethram Savages presented you with your award. I thought her words were fantastic.
Yeah, you and me both.
It's one of those things, isn't it. What's the feeling like when you're sat at the table, you're about to pick up an award and somebody who no doubt you're a fan of and you admire says something incredibly heart felt about you personally, and you were just were you kind of like, you know, we're like, oh, stop being so nice. What was going through your mind just before you walked up together the award?
I don't know. I mean, I love Jenny Beth. I've had the pleasure of being on her podcast before, so we've spoken, although we had never actually met her in the flesh, but I love her band Savages, and I think she's extraordinary and so yet to hear her speak like that was moving. I was really moved by it, you know, because I could tell it was sincere and I think that's what was so lovely about it for me and my family, And you know, my brother in law was crying, and I was really sweet, and I'm
very grateful to her. I thought it was a really generous introduction she gave me. She didn't need to do that, you know, for.
People that haven't seen it yet. Jenny Beth spoke very eloquently about the influence that you've had on her and said that you know, you have given the confidence to be somebody who really didn't give a fuck about just following around path and doing what she wanted to do. Is that something that really means a lot to you to hear somebody else.
Like that, Well, I wouldn't say it means a lot to me per se, because obviously my career has been about me and my pursuit. I mean, it's not like I've gone out my way to sort of influence anyone or try and wield influence over anyone. I've just tried to be might be as close to my authentic self as I can possibly be and have a clear conscience and a clean career, you know. But obviously, when you are an artist in the public eye, you inadvertently influence people.
That's just part of the job. It goes with the territory. When people that you admire, whose careers you have followed, and whose work you love, then it does mean something more significant, I guess, And it's exciting and again it's part of that real privilege of being a part of the musical caner, you know, where we're all influencing one another. And yeah, very special.
You obviously gave an acceptance speech when you picked up the award. Had you planned well ahead what you're going to say? Did you did that kind of come off to things that you wanted to say.
I'm ashamed to say I had to wing it because it just felt silly to sit down and write a speech for the Enemy awards.
That's good style.
Yeah, I just I tried to sort of sit down and think of something I wanted to say, and anytime it just seemed too heavy handed and or not heavy handed enough, you know. So I just gave up in the end and just thought I'll wing it, much the concern of my husband. But you know, I spoke from the heart, and I think I did an okay job.
How does it feel to be given an award that sort of labels you as an icon?
Well, it's ridiculous and wonderful at the same time, you know. I mean, I'd be a liar if I said it wasn't thrilling, you know, especially coming from the enemy, which I spoke about last night. Broke Garbage in the UK or certainly helped to played a big role in our career. Was essentially my music bible from the age of fourteen onwards.
And I learned a lot about music in the pages of the broadsheet and Emmy, and you know, I fell in love with a lot of the journalists that we had the pleasure of working with, and I felt legitimized. I guess it feels like, oh, I am actually a legitimate musician, and that feels cool.
Also in the evening there was Brick Smith start had some very eloquent words to say about Marky Smith. What did you think of that moment? Was Marky Smith or somebody you were.
Fo Yeah, I was a big Fall fan and had the pleasure of meeting him. Actually he came in, came and attended one of our shows in Brixton Academy of all places, ironically, and we were all very excited to meet him. And upon being introduced to him, we said, watching a show tonight was like watching pain dry. All of our faces kind of fell, you know. But it was such a beautiful, classic Marky Smith comment.
You know that.
I think we were all understanding of the fact that we just got we just got a moment right there. And I was very sad to see to read of his passing. And actually met Bricks last night, and she had a big effect on me too when I was growing up, and you know, her and Kim Gordon were like two of the baddest, meanest, coolest girls in rock and roll as far as I was concerned.
A couple of years ago, at the Enemy Awards and the Godlike Genius Award went to Blondie. I was there that night, Debbie Harry. You've tolded Blondie quite recently, in fact, what was she like?
I mean, my love of Debra Harry is is well documented, not just because of her contribution to music and being someone I've looked up to for what almost seems to amount to the whole of my life at this point, but to tour with her was extraordinary. You know, to see a woman of seventy one years old still have vigor and purpose and be creative and curious is inspiring.
You know, I'm fifty one myself, and I am often the oldest woman in the room, and it can often be a little dispiriting because there's not many of us at this level at that age, and so you're always the odd one out, the weirdo in the corner. And to then go on tour with Debbie, I was forced to sort of change my mind about a lot of my own sort of assumptions about who I am and what my age means. And so on and so forth, and
I'm very grateful to her. She's creates this incredible beacon not just for music women and music, but for all women all over the world. She's standing up saying you can still have agency at seventy one. That's a powerful message, and it's not a message we really have received up until this point. You know. It's still very very rare for women over fifty to ever be covered by any news media outlet, you know. And so she's really create a template as we speak, you know, for and showing
us the possibilities. And I'm very grateful to her for that, you know. And I have a lot of love in my heart for her, because she's not just incredible, she's really kind and generous and she makes room for everybody in her you know, orbit and not many stars do that at that level.
If you thought about how long you like to continue making music, and did that make you think, hey, yeah, I could definitely be still touring with Garbage when I'm in my seventies.
Well yes, and no, you know, I mean that's what I was saying. It changes your perspective when you I mean, I've said this so much this week, but you can become what you see. If you don't see any representation of yourself out there, I think you feel a little disengaged. But when you see someone like her, of course that changes your perspective. It's like, oh, I can do this, and if I want to, I will.
Representation has been obviously a big topic, certainly around award ceremonies in the arts this year, this the last couple of years, but particularly kind of hot topic at the moment given what's just happened with the Grammys and the head of the Grammys in his comments, was it important to when you're offered an award like the Icon Award of the Enemy Awards to accept it? Was that part of your reasoning for wanting to get Yeah, definitely, I'll be there. I'll accept that award.
Yeah, Because I mean, you look back at history, not just in music, but in all aspects of our culture. Women have had a hard time being remembered that they don't play a large role in the narrative at all.
It's almost as low they didn't exist. You know. I believe that that has to change, and I feel like by accepting certain awards or accolades, you are forcing the narrative to cover women, and I believe in that strongly, you know, because I feel it inspires other women they see the possibilities for them, and so yeah, I believe that women, when given the opportunity, should accept any accolades coming their way. But it's all individual choice. But that's what I believe in.
We yet to see I think a really powerful speech or kind of comment from a man using that platform to kind of to sport for example, the me Too movement, or certainly that I've seen perhaps it has happened, but that's something that important. That's something that's important that needs to happen, isn't it.
Yeah. I mean, again, there's a lot of disagreement amongst women about this, but I personally believe that this is not actually a female topic. This is a male topic that women are choosing to speak out on, but the midden is male. Like I mean, there's just no doubt
about it. You look at the statistics, you hear women testify this is a male issue, and how do we tackle that, And the fact that most males are not actually engaging in any sympathetic, empathetic, sensitive, thoughtful fashion surprises me and disappoints me. It's almost as though men think, well, this is just an entirely female topic. I'm staying out of it, and this is not my problem. We'll actually
know this really is some male problem. And it's one in three women are suffering at the hands of male aggression one in seven men. That's a crazy statistic. And what are we going to do about it? As not just a nation, as a globe. But this is a bizarre, systemic, institutionalized horror story, and it amazes me that men are just choosing to look away.
There's been had plenty of courage the comments from the head of the Grammys following this year's awards, or rather just before this year's awards, and the controversy around that the brit Awards have this year have decided to give out the white Rose to like everybody that's coming along to this year's awards to show support for the me
too movement. There's been a lot of debate the last kind of like twenty four hours ince they announced that because every man that sat on a table that the brit Awards is it's going to get given one of these things. And it feels like possibly it should be if they want to show support. They should actually be getting off the backside and doing that by their own volition, not because somebody's just handed their one. What do you think about that?
I mean, I would tend to agree that it seems a little pointless. Anyone can shove a white rose on their jacket. It doesn't speak to who they are, what they are, what they believe in, how they conduct themselves, in their you know, in their lives. I mean, I think we all saw that with the Golden Globes. There's a bunch of men, men wearing Times up pins, and then literally twenty four hours later were were revealed as you know, predators or men who are not treating women
particularly well. So I guess, yeah, I want to see action now at this point, I think I think we have all the evidence we need now. It requires action, but the actions, unfortunately are complicated and complex, and I
don't know where we begin. I mean, it really requires a very serious analo by governments all over the world with regards to how do we re educate young boys and young women, How do we re educate our children so that this stops will never stop it entirely because there a sexual predators out there in the world, and I don't think any form of education will ever necessarily change that, but we can definitely minimize and the sort
of bizarre casual touching and assaulting of women. It's funny because I was thinking the other day, you know, as human beings, we are powerful, and we're taught children are powerless, and we respect that sort of equation, generally speaking adults. And obviously there's always horrifying abnormalities to any story, but in general, adults respect the powerlessness of children, and they
attend to that and they protect children. And men are general physically stronger than women, and they have to be educated to respect that dynamic, that equation. And at this point, I don't think any effort has been put into teaching men how to control themselves, how to accept a refusal. Yeah, it's complicated, man, I don't have any of the answers. I just want it to stop.
Yeah, I agree. I think there's there's a lot to be done when it comes to education, and you immediately think of what can be done in order to make that stop from the generation that's about to begin. But I think there's also a responsibility on the generation absolutely right now, all levels, I think there's the action that can be taken.
Of course, but whether it will be it is open to to be, you know. I mean that it's just such a big problem too with regards to how governments
currently view our societies. You know, and money becomes king, people become nothing, and when people are nothing, they don't put them any money into education, and we just sort of fall into this endless pit of you know, economics and poverty and excess, and it's just it's and to me, I think if I was, if I was a president of a government, I would want to encourage more and
more money being put into education. Education is so key and yet money, you know, everybody only cares about money and profit and of course you can't you can't have profit in education. Education isn't about profit and it never will be. And so I mean, I look at the American government. They put less and less money into education
every day. It's astounding, you know. Half they're like one of the most powerful nations, richest nations in the world, and they're and their their educations system is falling behind some less well developed countries. You know, it's just bizarre. And ultimately, if you have an uneducated populace. Your whole world is going to go down the toilet really fast.
Certainly doesn't feel very forward thinking. Also, how is it felt your resident in the US. There's obviously been unarguably a lot of regressive stuff going on in the US given the current president.
Incredibly nameless.
Yeah, we actually said the last podcast than the last episode of the podcast, we spoke to Casey Spooner from Fisher Spooner who refused to say his name because he didn't want to empower him.
That's how I feel too.
How does it feel to be a British resident in America?
Well, I deeply love America and I feel like it's a very misunderstood country. Funnily enough, it's where my whole career took off. Really where every opportunity I've had in my life has been offered to me as an immigrant ironically in America, and I believe strongly in it. But I am heartbroken to see what's going on currently, you know, and we talk about it every day in every way.
I mean, it's changed our daily existence. You know. I didn't imagine I never imagined that having a leader that is like the creature we have and currently in power would affect my daily existence in the way in the way he has. But yeah, every day and every way, I'm agitated, I'm angry, I'm upset, I feel fearful when you hear some of the rhetoric regarding like the LGBTQ community for a random example, of which we have so many friends who we love and admire and and we
feel our communities on their threat and our fans. You know, so many of our fans are from that community. And to hear the rhetoric coming out of Mike pence mouth or is so shocked to me and that people are not out in the street going nuts at the white gates of the White House kind of shocks me too. It's like, what's it going to take before the American people will rise up? You know, it baffles me because it's hate speak.
In terms of your day to day then, like, oh.
Can we not just talk about something cheap and cheerful and.
Really dark? Tell me a bit? Can you just tell me a little bit about girls school in the in the movement what that is, and like how you've been involved with what they've been doing that.
Well, there are a phenomenal initiative out of Los Angeles run by an amazing musician called Annibalbrook who's best known for working with Airborne Toxic Event and she came up with this initiative which is to encourage women of all ages, all ethnicities, all socioeconomic backgrounds to get involved in music at whatever level and area they want to get involved in, whether that's you know, lighting, monitor engineering, production, so and
so forth. Performing. And I was invited to be on her keynotes speaker two years ago, and then she contacted me again this year, and I'd had such an amazing experience them the first year I was involved that I jumped at the chance and she suggested I do this incredible performance with an all female choir, a string quartet,
a harpist, all female band. And it was extraordinary. It was an extraordinary, wonderful, magical event, and I was very proud to be involved in the wonderful, amazing goddess that Fiona Apple came and joined me on stage and we sang a cover of Leslie Gores You Don't Own Me and Fiona was wearing a Neil Port now t shirt which she'd handmade. Yeah, and it was delightful and to just be part of that protest in such beautiful, poetic terms, just really extraordinary.
That sounds like a very positive thing to be happening. Or their plans to move it into different cities. That line that you just mentioned sounds like a really inspiring group of musicians to bring together, take it on tour or something like that.
Well, I know, Anna Bilbrook is an ambitious woman. I'm sure she's got plans, She's yet to share them with me. But you know, I'm also involved with the Girls Rock movement here in London and in Glasgow, in Miami, and you know, there's there's a worldwide initiative that the Girl's Rock Campaign has got the same ideas, but they try and promote women and encourage them to get involved. You know, the statistics surrounding female musicians is shockingly low. Yeah, I'm
excited about that. I feel like at least it feels like sort of you know, action in some ways. And yeah, so it was a joy. It's a joy to be involved in all that.
Stuff you mentioned last night during your speech about festival lineups, the fact that it's not acceptable that there is not more women on festival lineups, that people aren't more booking more female artists. For example, this year a festivals taking place around Europe. There's one in Sweden that I know of that it's like an old female festival, So the line it will be female and the people gown there will be female. What do you think about things like that?
Well, you know, I used to not believe in positive discrimination at all. I was very against any form of what I considered to be like a ghetto, and I felt very strongly that women had to compete with men. But then I came to realize, as I've gotten older, women aren't being given the opportunity to compete. So if they're not being allowed to compete, then sure setting up all female centric festivals or lineups or opportunities, I'm all
for it. At the same time, I feel very strongly that there has to be a no tolerance policy, i e. The punters shouldn't be going to festivals if they don't see themselves represented there. You know, it's like, if you're not seeing yourself being represented, don't go. Don't give them your dollars, don't give them their pounds, cut it, because until you do that, they're just going to keep going along in They're easy, breezy patriarchal ways and nothing's ever
going to change, you know. So yeah, I'm sort of torn. But as I've gotten older, as I've said, I'm for positive discrimination. It's the only way we can force their hand.
I went to MIA's Meltdown Festival last year. It was fantastic. It was full of incredible female artists, including Maya herself. You're involved with the Sun Dance Festival this year, and you've seen the MII documentary. Are you a fan of hers?
A huge fan?
And what did you make of the documentary?
I love the documentary. I mean I usually if I'm a fan of an artist and then I go and see a documentary, I can often be a little disappointed or bummed out. I loved her more than I did before, which I do think is a good sign. I just thought she was I think she's spectacular. It was so many fronts. Phenomenal filmmaker, by the way, like really, she's the incredible video maker, like crazy good, and also has her own authentic, genuinely original voice in music and that's rare.
And then she's got this delightful, sparkling personality, has something to say, She's passionate, and she seems like a good person, you know, so like she's trying to put something good out there as opposed to something negative. And No, I couldn't love her more. I find her very inspired.
Is that amongst the best documentaries that have focused on an artists that you ever seen? Any think?
No, I wouldn't go that far. I mean I think I always want more, you know. I mean Dig to Me is like maybe the best music documentary of all time.
But there.
I also thought the Metallica Gods and Monsters was a piece of genius. I mean, there's so many great documentaries, and then it depends what you're looking for. Yeah, but I think they did a good job in that they portrayed her in a very positive light. I would have preferred more music, you know, focus, but you know that's just me being fussy as usual.
Would you ever do the Shany Manson documentary or the Garbage documentary film, or write a book or any of those type of things?
I don't know. I always say never, say never, you know, like you just never know. I never thought in a million years we'd ever put out a coffee table book, and we did, and it was, you know, very satisfying. I have to say when the whole thing was said and done. So yeah, I never say no. I just think you should always keep your options open. But am I working on a fucking documentary on myself right now?
No?
I'm not. And do I have any plans to anytime soon? No? Absolutely not.
Okay, I for one would like to say it, you're celebrating twenty years of Version two point oh uniperformed that album minutes entirely. Yeah, basically is a plan.
That is the plan, and we're pretty excited about it. We had such a great time on the First Records Anniversary twentieth anniversary. We didn't realize how much joy we'd get out of it. Some of the songs we hadn't ever and listened to since we put them out in ninety five, you know. So it was kind of exploratory exercise and we loved it, and the fans loved it. We had such a blast, and so yeah, I think we're all pretty excited about taking Version two Poundsho out
on the road. It's not a very long tour. We're just doing maybe eight weeks in total, which for us is really short. This year is mostly about writing. That's what we're supposed to be doing, but we keep getting distracted with a whole loads of other nonsense, as you always do as a band. But that's the plan is we're going to be working all year on writing and recording so that we have a new record to go out next year. But you know, the best laid plans of mice and men, as they.
Say, what kind of things still really peaque your interest in terms of the music that you want to create, the projects you want to be involved in. What kind of thing still really gets you excited? Because it sounds like you've still got a lot of fire to like give.
Well, I'm a Viking, so I will always have fire. Yeah, I will always have fire to my bow, I think, or to my long shit. But I am getting more and more serious about collaborating with other artists. I find it really inspiring. I didn't have the confidence to do it when I was younger, and now that I'm older, I'm a bit more comfortable with going in and writing in front of people I don't know, and also negotiating space in a collaborative setting. So I am excited about
that kind of thing. I just don't want to keep repeating the same old, same, Oh you know, I really am getting more and more interested in sonics and how to do stuff that you haven't ever done before. It's uncomfortable, but that to me is exciting. And then I bore my band religiously at the moment about what I call high stakes.
I E.
Look, we're not young, We've never been young, but we're even less young. Now what is it that we need to say? And what is it we want to say if we died, you know, in a year, what have we left on the plate?
You know?
So that's to me exciting because I like having restrictions. I feel like you can be really creative when you have really narrow confines in a funny way. And I feel like that, to me is something I want to explore. My high stakes whatever that may be, whatever it is from my band, I find that an interesting challenge to how to talk about the things nobody really wants to talk about. Nobody wants to talk about age, nobody wants to talk about death, Nobody wants to talk about these
kind of topics. And that, of course is like a red rag to a bull to me.
Okay, well, I look forward with religion here and what comes next.
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