Ep 34: Julien Baker

like New Orleans, Austin, Nashville, Clarksdale, and Memphis. Beforehand, my preconceptions of Memphis were dominated by the city's well known cultural landmarks, so Graceland obviously BB King's Blues Club on Beal Street, Sun's Studio, but also Memphi. This has played such an important part in US history as well. From a personal point of view, I was fascinated to get to talk to someone from Memphis to find out what the reality of growing up there away from that stuff

is actually like. But also staying on preconceptions. As someone who counts famous introverts like Elliott Smith among her major influences and often gets described as a singer songwriter writing very personal material. Going into this conversation, I thought Julian might be quite softly spoken, possibly even a bit shy, but as you're about to hear, that's not the case

at all. She's eloquent, polite, honest, but there's also a real fiery passion and determination about her personality, her character,

particularly on subjects that she really cares about. It left me thinking that there will definitely be people listening to this who knowingly or unknowingly have an idea in their mind, a perception of what they think people alike from that part of the world, from the Southern States of America, And I think the way that Julienne talks about it, being a young gay Christian songwriter who is into hardcore punk as much as she is a band like Deaf Cab the QT serves as a reminder that we can't

generalize what a place is like from the headlines we read or the cliches that get recycled. It's rarely the complete picture of her place anyway. This was recorded just over a week ago. Julian came into our office here at Loud and Choiet in East London. It was the first stop on what was going to be a tour of Europe doing interviews about her new album, turn Out

the Lights Out. Later this month. Only a couple of years ago, she recorded her debut Album's Sprained Ankle and assumed that the audience for it would be basically her Facebook friends. So she's come a long way from those days. Just finally, I should remind you if you like our podcast, please do subscribe. That means you'll get every new episode of Midnight Chats published every fortnight on a Thursday at midnight. But on with the conversation. This is Midnight Chat's episode

thirty four with Juliane Baker. You've obviously been to Europe a couple of times now in the last few years. Does it still have like a charm and excitement leaving the States to come somewhere like London to talk about your music or play.

think it ever will be. I don't think I have that kind of disposition.

boredom or which is not the case. Like I am continuously aware of how blessed and fortunate I am that this gets to be my job, but I do try to give myself adequate perspective to my art, Like this trip entails a lot of discussion of me, and so the challenge is finding ways to turn the conversation not completely away from the record, but to find ways to situate the art that I make inside the larger context of the art that I like, the art that I admire,

the things that I think are socially relevant and pertinent, so that it does not become a sort of self aggrandizing exercise. Not in a like holier than that way, but just in a way that I feel like I would not be serving the record itself even well if I just talked about me and tried to perform these activities or interviews with only like accreditation or recognition in mind. I think that's not why I want to do interviews.

Did you see the ducks? Duck?

to the ground floor. Hundreds of tourists gather around. The ducks walk from the lift to the fountain, go in the fountain for a bit, then they turn around and they reverse the journey and they go back upstairs there trying.

spelled too as in this is also Graceland. Was this bizarre little house owned by this man who just filled it with Elvis memorabilia. And it was like this informal kind of cult activity that we would all go to Graceland two and if you just knock on the door, and I think the thing was you showed up with a six pack of Coca cola, or if you don't the man at any hour of the night. I had friends that would go, like two in the morning, We'll invite you in and he will just walk you around

his home. It's just like a person's house, and he'll just show you all his crazy stuff there. But so there's a lot of like interesting dichotomy of Memphis where there's the normal thing and then the abnormal thing, as much as there are like quirky pieces of history there, like the Crystal Grotto, which is just like this weird grotto, or grace Land two, there's so much just unique about Memphis.

Do you know about Prince Manga. Oh my gosh, he's this citizen who runs for mayor, like with some regular that just will never win. He but he runs. I like to think that it's sort of like a he knows that he's crazy, Like he's in on the joke kind of trope where he tells people in press releases that he's here from another planet. He is an alien scent here, and he'll say things like if I get elected mayor, I will provide every citizen with an oozy

automatic weapon. And but also there's things like there was a painting ordinance past about like your house can't be certain colors, and you had a party where everyone brought paint and threw it at his house and made just this bizarre. But stuff like that happens in Memphis that seems like this bizarre like Garcia Marquez like magical, unreal story and it is one. And I think that this

is gonna sound cheesy or ironic. But there's something maybe I won't use the word magical, like mystic about Memphis that is lacking in some other cities that have a little bit more commerce, Like I think that there are other cities in Tennessee or just around the South that have amazing art scenes and a lot of music and commerce, and but in Memphis it's just small enough to be familial and just big enough to have resources to do

interesting things. But the primary differentiating factor in the art scene in Memphis to me is that, say, in a place like Nashville or Atlanta, there seems to be a lot more prevalent access to music and venues, and there's plenty of places to play, and so there can be the music kid lunch tables, like if you've ever seen SLC punk, you know, like this, oh you know that scene where it's like the new wave kids hate the hardcore kids, and the hardcore kids hate the punk kids

and the pub kids. But so it's like, you know, there's like the scream of house scene, and then maybe the DM scene, and then the pop scene and the country scene. And because of the surplus of resources, those people may exist within their esoteric sphere, but in Memphis there's it's getting revitalized, but only as a result of people saying we desperately need places to play, we need

a mid cap venue. We don't have a lot of outlets, and so all of these different genres and types of artists are forced to buy necessity work in like a cohesive unit. I feel that the scene there is not very competitive. It has to be collaborative because if it's not collaborative, no one will benefit from it. And so

that's the way I always grew up conceptualizing music. You know, we would play how shows or shows that art spaces where we play an indie rock set, and then we'd be opening for like a black metal band, and then there would also be a band on that show that sounded like just alt country. And that kind of diversity but mutual support I think showed me how necessary it is to gain perspective and insight from other people in

the worlds they live in. But there's also just a lot of love, like people that see the disparity between what we wish we could have resource wise in Memphis and what we actually have. But I just think that everybody putting so much of themselves into this basket of something we can all have together is you know, intrinsically Memphis.

also maybe wear fancy dress and things like that. So for example, you know, you might see some election footage of somebody being you'd be watching an politician wearing a suit celebrating their victory, and behind them there'll be a woman dressed as a tomato or it. When Theresa May got back in during the general election, the most recent one, there was a guy sort of dressed his second Lord buckethead and he had a huge bucket on his head.

He actually went and appeared on some US like talk shows after the event because the internet went absolutely bonkers over this this guy that turned up with a bucket on his head and it just hearing you talk about this guy reminds me of that, the kind of how even the most like serious of processes can be kind of the sprinkle a little bit of just surreal humor or madness.

apartments quick enough. I liked Nashville, but it felt very modern compared to somewhere like Memphis. Where Memphis felt like it had you got a real sense of history of the place, possibly a little bit more. I don't know if the word is real, but Memphis just felt like I had more character. How do Memphians feel about the development they see in the other big cities around them? And does it have I mean, you mentioned it there that the development of Memphis seeds to be coming from

within rather than external. Is that fair to say?

I think will come to each other to rescue. But there's an interesting sibling rivalry between Nashville and Memphis, and I find that, first of all, Nashville, it's something like tripled in size in the last five years. People that have lived there for a long time always comment upon how the city is just unrecognized from five even ten years ago. And I haven't lived long enough there to

be able to compare, but I think you're right. Nashville is so much more modern, and it seems because it's commerce and industry based that it's very geared towards like young urban people. And gentrification is a problem everywhere, but particularly I think in Nashville, because you talked about the construction, and I gave like a grimace because I experience the repercussions of the construction every day when it takes like an hour to get two hundred feet on I sixty five.

But all these flats are being built, and I know in my heart, like all these flats are going to be built for the innumerous transplants, and then rent will not go down, like supply will increase, but demand is just going to keep increasing, and so the housing will not become more affordable, which makes me a little sad.

And I think, you know, it's largely because a lot of industries, particularly in music, like I heard that the Big Three are like moving to be more present there in Nashville, and there's just a lot of like music and like big music industry, like major label stuff going on there that I think draws more people to relocate there, since it's not quite a New York or La yet. And Memphis, I think there's a little bit of bitterness

because we feel neglected. We feel like we're you know, a decent size, like major city, and yet everything seems to come to Nashville. When people move, visit open businesses, it goes to Nashville, and Memphis gets forgotten. And so, you know, like I was saying earlier, with having less resources at our disposal as a city, I think everyone there in Memphis that doesn't leave it comes to the realization that if something is going to happen, it has

to happen utilizing just what we have. And so people in Memphis I think have this attitude that's very defensive and proud of like we have the Grizzlies there and their motto is grit and grind, because I think that the football team, oh, no, Predators. The Predators are a hockey team in Nashville and that's gotten really popular. But the Grizzlies are a basketball team and their moto is

grit and grind. I think a lot of people in Memphis identify with that idea of like there's no one that is going to or maybe there's not no one, but there's less people coming into Memphis externally pouring investment in and so I think that, oh gosh, she said, you know, like necessity is the mother of invention, Like having less to work with makes people more motivated to create something wholly and new or with whatever they have,

and sometimes that can be a blessing. And like the way you craft things or the way that things come about as a musical community or growing organically is a little bit more stable and more unique because it's not being constructed from an outsider's point of view of what's going to be theoretically lucrative and successful. It's just how things are happening naturally. That's most advantageous for the city.

very tasteless. But I don't know how true that is. That's just like the Midmath, which I think is like just fun. But when I was twelve, thirteen, fourteen, I used to go see hardcore bands and people play at the skate park. And the skate park used to be booked by this organization in Memphis called Smith's Seven, And

there's a whole bunch of local bands there. It was a real culty thing, but that had this unusual level of success because there would be local bands like you know, seven Dollars Socks or Wicker whomever, nights like these that would play and to hundreds of people, and because the skate park was a venue where national, like nationally successful but still esoteric kind of hardcore bands would play, would come like it gave it was a good middle rum.

Then after that shutdown, they started having shows at the house and it was interesting because it was still just his house, but the kind of recognition in the city that Smith's Seven still had. You know, I saw a citizen Turnover, Daylight bearver Shark played there, like, which are all kind of particular to a certain kind of you know,

musical taste. But that was cool too because the first time I ever went to a house show proper, you know, a house show where you're not a twelve year old that doesn't quite understand how house shows are, and you're like, there's a chip and dip platter at a punk show, right like now, that.

of their songs. And what's more, it's like they were on a living room floor. Even at the skatepark there's a raised stage, and so it kind of perpetuates that separation between performer and audience. You have your roles and there's a stratification that's a parent there. And I would go see these bands, you know, to where maybe they're not playing the FedEx Forum, but to me under Oath or whoever is like the idols of my world, and

they're separate from me, and they're inaccessible and untouchable. And then that's completely destroyed when you go see a house show and all of a sudden, I remember they played this like Manchester Orchestra cover and everybody grabbed the mic and was like standing around in a circle just singing into one SM fifty eight that was being held out, and it was bizarrely like a like a revival, like a hymn sing like just where nobody in particular is leading.

Everybody just decides this is the song we're gonna play. People from the crowd were like getting on the instruments and there was like no clear organization. Also, nobody was drinking or doing anything, which I've been to house shows where that's not the case, and that's fine, but it blew my mind even more that there was no substance that was instrumental in this behavior. It just people needed to scream and get their feelings out and have their

friends recognize their thing. And then those are where I

played some of the best shows I ever played. Imagine being fourteen years old and having someone stick a microphone in front of you and a room full of people say like, your voice is important and what that does for your validation and your musical confidence and your self concept, and for them to say, like, you don't have to be destructive to be a part of an aggressive music scene, Like you can make punk music that's just about your friends and getting through the challenges that you face, and

I don't know, I think that that really informed how I still regard music and the live experience as an exchange rather than a theatrical spectacle.

it's also dispelled. You know, back when I was in the Star Killers and we made music that was somewhere between I don't know, Sunny Day Real Estate meets Circus Survive and also Wilco Like we were very we had a lot of interest, you know, but we would open for serious like punks who actually had grown up, you know, ten years before us and had way more quote unquote

cred than we did. Or you know bands that were actual metal bands, and I think these bands are gonna hate us, and they're gonna be like, get off the stage?

And that kind of started to dismantle this concept that, you know, the lunch table idea, that everybody stays in their musical lane and that there's no crossing those boundaries. And so by the time I was doing music full time, I was like, who cares put a DJ on a

metal show? No one's gonna care. I played a show with Touche and More in Anaheim a couple of years ago, and that was scary for me because I think growing up in Memphis was great, you know, because of what we've already talked about in the connection and confluence there. But I realize now having toured and done DIY tours, that you know, I booked in places I wasn't aware of the vibe that that's I was a little spoiled.

People are more sectarian in some places, and that's because they want to save space where they feel like they're going to get what they're expecting. And that's fine, but so I was like, I don't know how the scene

is here compared to where I'm from. I played my set, it was really quiet, and I thought everyone was bored, and then I went back and sat down at merch waiting for touche to go on, and this guy, this huge muscular guy and like a snap back and like a ripped off band tea came up and a great set and I was like, oh, thank you, you're six feet tall, like I was afraid everyone would be bored, and he said, nah, dude, honesty transcends genres. And that is one of my favorite pull quotes from any show

I've ever played. I was like, I did not expect to have this wisdom dropped on me at a two schet show in Anna I'm California by a dude wearing a harms white snap back, like I just did not, and it was cool, Like those things make me so happy and remind me that the core necessity, the thing that people cling to in that music that I did is its passion and it's neat, it's a brutal expression, and I think as long as there's that, as long

as there's that honesty and vulnerability, that's what people really cling to, you know. I mean, there are certain people that just want to hear an awesome breakdown and do like a scissor kick. That's me sometimes, but I think people are a lot more willing to give things a chance now. I don't know. I like that, I like playing varied shows.

I don't know.

now I will write a record. I just accrue these songs as voice memos and various levels of completion, you know, during the tours that I've been on virtually since spring Ninkle has been released, and then I had some time last fall to kind of demo them out, and once I had demos of twenty a little over twenty songs, maybe so many, so I'm want a voicemamo, like one hundred and fifty or something, and it's like.

into her flip phone which dates the video. Yeah, it was like, that's a brilliant idea. I could save all my ideas in real time. One of these days I'll get like, you know, logic or something, But so I would. I would think for you know, possibly months about is this the best, most refined, final iteration of the song?

And I had so much more time to consider it as well as you know, I know that I have the investment of a listenership and the support of a label, and I have these tools at my disposal, and it made me want to do the best thing. Make the most ideal art, not make the art that everyone else would think was most ideal, but take the songs that I wrote and do my very best to make them

the highest versions of themselves. So that you know, these people, the listeners who have given me their time and who have valued my music and enabled me to live this life, would feel when I released another record that the record was worth the twenty odd dollars they spend at a show, was worth what they pay for a CD, because it effectively communicates that I put every part of myself and

all of my energy into this music. You know, I just don't want to give out something that's you know, subpar, not as in like the subject matter, but just in the execution. And so there was a little bit of pressure to perform for that. And it seems like admitting an awareness like that of a listenership or an audience is almost a taboo subject because there's artists who perpetuate this mentality that you can create art in a vacuum, that you can say, I don't care what anybody else thinks.

I make art for myself and myself solely. It is pure self expression and none can influence me. But I think, while that may be true, that's just not how I make art, and I can't admit that and be honest about it. Actually, last night I was reading this like article thing that Amanda Palmer wrote, and I thought she phrased it so well. She's like, people say it's bad to make art for others and that you should only make art for you, But I think I make art

for me for others. And I was like, oh, wow, that's what I've been trying to say in lengthy paragraphs put into one sentence, you know, like, I make art this pretty much one hundred percent autobiographical, but I want it to be worthful and able to be utilized by others and meaningful to them. And so it's not like I don't construct these songs with no listener in mind.

a difficult thing to really kind of convey because it's

so nuanced. It's a bit like when people when I was in America last year, obviously, the news of the UK leaving the European Union was big global news, and the first thing people would say to you if you got into a taxi or met somebody in a cafe was, oh, you guys hate Europe now, right, And you're kind of like, I could spend the next ten hours talking to you about this and how complicated it is, and how different strands of just how difficult this is, situation is, and

all of the factors that shape it. Is it a difficult thing to answer questions about being American and all of the various issues that face the country right now.

that it's annoying. But I am also a super diplomatic person by nature, and I feel like I don't want to like argue I don't see the productivity of hatefulness

within a discussion. But I'm trying to work on just being more vocal about things because since you know, even before the most recent election, far before that, it just started to sink in how necessary and crucial it is to be able to use your voice or any platform that you have to promote the ideologies that are most just and to try to bring people's attention to things that are important and trying to avoid controversial issues or you know, saying that I don't want to talk about

the state of American politics to me feels like an easy way to skirt around difficult issues that ultimately is only something to be done to preserve my own comfort. And there are so many people who are not privileged enough to ignore or disregard or check out of politics because politics is the is, you know, part of their

lived experience. They cannot depoliticize themselves, and I can't, like, you know, I'm speaking about obviously like people of color and immigrants, and I benefit from an immense amount of privilege because I'm just a white person and like as a queer female, Like, that's something that's not visible immediately to people, depending on what your status on flannel is. That was a joke. I'm sorry, It's not immediately visible

to everyone. And so I understand that I'm afforded a level of like safety and refuge from I can choose to engage somebody about my politics, but I don't have to, but I would.

to eat in my city. I'll do that later. I would rather say, like, there's some really not okay things going on in America and I know that, and it also gives me a chance to show hopefully that like not every American person is the way perhaps you perceive them to be, and that there is a strong resistance to the conservative and potentially hateful mentality that's you know, cropped up and highlighted by the media in America unfortunately.

But you know, that's something that became aware to me like almost instantly on the last record, like now that I have a chance to talk about it, you know, Trump was not at that point president, but it still was like sinking into me that one of the best things about any level of recognition is the ability to use these moments as a tool for discourse about things that have you know, that have to do with more than just Julian Baker and Julian Baker's cool or uncool music.

You know, like I just try to listen more, talk less, talk about the things that are important as much as I can, and let myself shrink, you know, in the conversation so that other things can be brought to light. Hopefully that's what I'll have a chance to do.