Loud and Quiet presents Midnight Chats.
I want to start this episode of the podcast with an apology, but mostly I want to start with some thank you. First off, sorry we've been away. It's been about six weeks since our last episode of Midnight Chats,
episode thirty one with Lucy Rose. There was never a plan to take a summer break, but unfortunate at the end of July, our office in London was burgled and all of our equipment was taken, and that included the kit we used to make this series and two unpublished chats we'd already recorded, one that I'd had with the legendary Tom Morello which took place the more after the UK general election, and another that Stuart had done with
Adam from the War on Drugs. Unfortunately, those conversations won't get heard now, which is a shame, but hey, maybe we'll get those guests back on one day. As I said, I also need to say a few thank yous as well. We're a small, independent team, so the last month hasn't been the easiest. But the people who got in touch afterwards to offer temporary working space or help, or sent us some whiskey or just ask if we were all right.
Cheers to you guys, it was much appreciated, and also thank you to Zoom who kindly sent us a new recorder so that you can hear this now. This feels like a good opportunity then as we come back to remind you what we're all about and what we do, or if you're listening for the first time, to introduce you to Midnight Chats. It's a podcast series made by
us at Loud and Quiet. Some episodes are hosted by me, Greg and others by Stuart and we aim to have conversations with artists, people of interest that have a late night feel, the kind of thing that maybe hopefully goes a bit deeper, maybe is a little bit different from what you normally hear from those musicians. So after our
recent unplanned pause, we start again now. A new episode will be published every fortnight at midnight on a Thursday, and you can listen, subscribe, ray and review us on all the major podcast platforms, plus we stick these on YouTube and Facebook as well. In exactly one week from now, the winner of this year's Mercury Prize will be announced.
Just less than two years ago, that was Benjamin Clementine picking up the award, inviting the eleven other nominees on stage that night to pick up the award with him, and he was dedicating it to the victims of the recent Paris terror attacks. At that time. It was a poignant moment, and the night itself wasn't just the breakthrough moment for his music, but also the springboard for his
extraordinary story to start being told more widely. Benjamin grew up in Edmonton, North London, left home when he was sixteen, spent a couple of years living in Camden before leaving London for Paris. He was often sleeping rough there on
the streets. He was busking, though at the same time on the Metro and on the boulevards, and that's where he was spotted an experience which eventually led him on to record his debut album, at Least for Now, and eventually onto winning that distinguished award, which incidentally he's managed to break. As he says in this chat, the morning after winning the Mercury, he went back to Paris to the cheap hostel room where he was staying and thought
about how surreal the whole thing was. But two years on, in the middle of September. Now he will release his second album. It's called I Tell Afly, And there's a bit in this chat about the album, but not a lot.
Mostly his conversation about his roots in Edmonton, why it was so hard going back there a few years ago to try and live there, why the twenty five pounds he got given for winning the Mercury Prize is still sat in a bank account, and also his impression of America and Americans after he spent the majority of last
year there writing and recording his new album. Just finally, I should add that Benjamin speaks in a quite hushed, unhurried way, so you may want to turn this up a touch to get the full effect of our conversation. So here it is the return of Midnight Chats. This is episode thirty two with Benjamin Clementeine. What is the summer looked like for you?
Yeah, I've been finishing the album and also playing from festivals across Europe. The last one it's in a few days in Portugal, and I can't wait to go and perform for them, and then go back and rest a little bit before it all starts again in September.
How do you find that transition between being in the writing recording place and then being out on stage, because I know for some artists their preferences to be in one zone at a time, if you like. So if you're trying to finish things, off record things and play shows at the same time, it can be a distraction.
But how do you find it? I see it as as you know, a part of what, don't you know? What defines me going into the studio and recording it's the same as going to the stage and performing. Obviously they're both different things. Making the studio album it's different from making even a live album. But I think it's a bit like being a mu's good. You know of our occupations, like you know, a doctor or whatever it is.
You know, you go to different places every time, and you you're going to have to give your best at everything. So you know, I wake up every day to do what I what I love doing, which is which is being an artist.
When you're off the road, so to speak, where do you consider yourself based? Now? Are you living in London?
Well, I am. I'd say that I pay my taxes in London, so I suppose because I'm living here. Yeah, I mean, I like coming back to London every time I'm not working or I'm not yeah, if I'm not writing or and in fact, I don't really like hanging around in London. I like to go outside London as much more peaceful.
Where do you take yourself? Do you go to the coast, do you get into the countrysideway?
Do you go well, you know, these days, my girlfriend she and she's, she's she's got a nice house and there's woken them. Okay, so we we go there, you know, as much as possible to to relax and and and get out the what's called the tantrums and snelligans of of off the city.
And increasingly polluted out it feels like it.
Certainly as soon as you leave London you realize how how dreadful it is to live in a search metropolis.
What are the things that you still love about London? Night like having you know, growing up here. I don't know whether you consider yourself still in London and having like moved around to different places, but yeah, one of the things you still love about the city, I think is that a short list?
I'm asually you have. I'm glad that I I I know, in fact, leaving London made me No London more, No London more because living in the city and you haven't really traveled around other cities, you don't realize what you have or what you don't have. For me, I like the openness of London, so if you want to go somewhere, you're going to have to really go there, cause it takes a long time to go there. I also like the obviously the so called it's the word mrticultural aspects
of the city. Whether it's an advantage, I have no idea, but I do appreciate it. That's what I like about London. I think I like the southmore, South London more because it is very quiet compared to Central and North London. That's my experiences, you know, maximum anthorm of London. But
I think I prefer up Landing more. Overall, I it's nice again, it's it's nice to to to see a whole bunch of people from looking different everywhere around the world coming to the city to somehow uh fulfilled their dreams.
You know.
It's a bit like I'm sounding a bit like America now so called the American dream might be a great British dream, but you might have to ask her. You might have to ask her what's his name? Like your farage.
If I am right or wrong, You're from Edmonton, so north of London. You're already north London. You've already mentioned. Do you find yourself back in that neighborhood very often?
No, be honest with you, it's it's a shuttle.
And I can agree with you on that because I live relatively close to there.
It's a shittle. I would like to hopefully, you know, I have so many you know, so many dreams, and you know, you know, when I'm when I'm done with this music, I would want to know I would be allowed to say that I can do it. At the same time, it's amount of times I'm traveling, so I had to you know, even I have time for my own lady. You know how much more our village of Old City City in the city, I think that it's such a I wouldn't say the poor area because there's
there's two parts of Edmonton. It's angel Edmonton and there's Edmonton Green. Edmonton Green is a poor side, and Andrew Edmonton is not so poor side. When we lived in Age Andrew Edmonton, so there was less crime and but you know, we always warned to never walk around Edmonton green going back there, you know, nothing has really changed. It's so look the look I get when I go to Edmonton. Edmonton suggest that I I've grown out of
it now, I've I tried to live there. I went back there to live in Edmonton for a couple of months when I was recording my first album and just couldn't live there. M I couldn't live there, and I was very sad because you know, here I was, you know, you know, the man who I'm always foe for, you know, uh uh. I stayed true to my word, and I I tried to stay true to my words. You know, all the people I'm working with, you know, have been welcome with them for or four years now, and I'm
and there's no way I'm not. I'm just gonna stop working with them, you know. So going back to Edmonton where my where my mother lives there, but I didn't want to live there. I wanted to get my own place, and it was a a very sad sight, one that I don't think I'd ever want to experience ever again.
What made you sadder? Was it the flood of kind of memories of the place, that came back to you when you moved back there possibly some negative experiences or was it more that the place haven't changed and you felt like maybe it would have moved on in that time?
Was both next feelings, of course, So as trauma. Uh, I would walk on the street and whenever I see kids, you know, I'll just you know, started thinking about when I was a kid, and I wouldn't want to pass them because cause I was bullied in school. So I wouldn't wanna walk past the badge of kids laughing together cause I think they might look at me in and uh we'll start laughing at my hair or you know, and I'm a corn man. So that, yes, of course.
But it's also the fact that I, as you rightfully said, uh, I hadn't really moved on, you know, it hadn't. It was still I was going back. It's the past, you know, and I had already you know, gone fr gone through a lot and embarrassed. So and if I I mean, I can afford to live somewhere, there was you know, you know, not not the penthouse, but you know, in a in a nice are, in a safer and I was called a peaceful place. So yeah, it was, it was it was both, it wasn't it wasn't just and
also in the you know, it's funny it's people. People do change, and and you know, talking about the neighborhoods. So going back there, they were less English people there, you know, and there's more I think, uh, Turkish people, and you know, it's uh, it's different. I mean a a a and field particularly it's it's is full of you know, uh, English, Greek people and fields the borough of of Edmonton, and and we were the few black people who who lived at that time. And then now it's, uh,
it's changed, you know. I hope it's for the better in the long run because one a lot of uh I think one A lot of working class, you know, a lot of a uh yeah, a lot of working class. And I mean, what's people under working class?
What's it called?
I don't even know.
Crime. Well, I mean I said, technically, I guess you're moving inside.
Gypsies, Yes, gyp just uh gypsies. And you know, yeah, I saw I saw them living there. And and you know when there's that uh, I've been reading h Tom sol who's an economist. He says that uh, you know, uh uh poverty. There's not great crime, but I do a better to differ because liven't there for that particularly a few months I've thought to myself, all I could get robbed in an instant, you know, I could. I'm sure that the people are peaceful in the daytime, but
at that time it is not. It's not a safe place. That's why there's not a lot of people are it's that time. So yeah, I hope they they find what they're looking for.
You mentioned the couple of just talking about that. Then you said when when the music thing is done, which he infers that you don't imagine that you'll do music forever?
Is that right?
Do you think that way?
Yeah? Yeah, of course I won't. I won't well doing music. Of course I'll playing music forever. But but I I don't see myself doing a lot of albums and you know, fifty albums and all that. No, that's not that's not me.
You would be Paul McCartney still going at seventy.
Well, I mean, after a certain time, what do you talk about? I don't I don't see how. I mean, you love songs? Can you write what I've written? None? That's because I'm keeping all of my love. But I just don't. I don't like repeating myself, you know, And maybe I would just make I'll go to university, will go to conserve it or something. Study here, i'd been a composer or what's it called, something called director?
Yeah, like an orchestra leader.
Yeah you have forgotten, Yeah, the maestra or whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, you know. I want to try and help my community, communities that touched me. Touch you know. So there's a community in France, that's community in England, Edmonton, community in Italy near Tuscany. I asked, that's what makes me go, That's what makes me breathe, and that's what makes me think that I'm worth it or my life is of
VISal importance umanity. So so that music is I love music, but I don't think it's That's what I'll be doing for you know. You know, touring is so an easy thing. It's not, and there are many ways to make a living. It's just that most of the time, we artists, we compare ourselves to each other because of our others are
greedy than others. So when you're making some money, you compare your money to someone who's greedy and then you think that you're making none, but there's enough to survive, you know.
So so if you were to go back to somewhere like Edmonton, how do you imagine what kind of capacity would you imagine that in the sense that you would want to be part of like a community youth program like about about trying to help like lift people out of some of the difficulties that you've just talked about. How do you mean you would want to go and kind of affect those communities in some way work with them perhaps.
Yeah, I mean, first of all, I am you know, we just talk about how I'm going to stop doing music, and you know, but you know, you know once once I'm mature, and since I'm mature, and I'm starting to understand that it's not just for me, you know, it's
it's I'm here because of other people. And so with music, for example, I would I would like to be a festival in these places, you know, And I'm not talking about playing the most obvious music, No, I would want to either pick out guys from that same community and also bringing people I love. And that's if they want to do of course, but that's that's one of the
things I want to do. The music of course, bring people together, but also you know I tried talking to the council a couple of months ago and they just poor SARTs on it.
I mean.
It is you know. I tried to to get you know, to get them pianos, as I had said, with my mercury money. But after talking to the council or whatever his name, the the guy the mayor was it.
Council leader.
Or the MP or whatever it is, Yeah, they just put me off, you know. So I just need to find a way of just doing it. I still have money. It's twenty quid, twenty k, twenty five k. Sorry, And I said, I'm you know as as I said too that I am out of my words. And you always dreaming about that, you know, I dreamt about it for years. But they want to get involved, these guys before their
own earned benefits. You know. He said something like, and let's do it so that this mail or this count, this this man will wor will be you will set a legacy or something or today I don't care about you know what you what you want to set for yourself. What I want to do is to help, is to
give to the place where I am from. And you know, so he put me off a little bit, but it would still go on, just having the time until but I would just rather just because they've got to grant me permission to put piano and library because the plan the libraries is a public library, you see. So these things are now hard when you're not on the same side with with the powers of of of the of of of the community. But you know, I'll find a
way and and then let's start. That would be the starting point, you know, that giving pianos, putting pianos in in schools and in in libraries or set it off and eventually you know, of course I wanted to tackle things like not tackle, but bringing to the light things, especially the arts, because the arts is poor. It's really poor. It's very poor compared to French arts and culture. Personally, I think it's poor. There's no appreciation for contemporary art.
There's no appreciation for young people expressing themselves in a different way. People get laughed at, you know, the people get laughed at for doing things differently, expressing themselves differently in England, and it's terrible and I don't personally investment giving put into arts. It's mostly put into arts of Casto's and you know, and it's it's a waste of money because that that that painting is fifty million pounds,
so it's making his money anyway. You know. That's what I'm really upset about concerning the arts and in as kandom that I don't ignited Kingdom because I haven't haven't been everywhere in me you know, it's it's it's put me off London a little bit. You know, who cares about uh uh a garden bridge, you know, or who cares?
I mean, there's there's going back into the community. I'm yet to see any you know, any kid coming out of the block or whatever painting uh a Renaisance painting or you know, or even a contemporary but you know, as you know, it doesn't as contemporary as a as Michelle John Michelle Bascat's paintings. You know, it's terrible, it's
too terrible. And then and then for me personally, I don't really care about education and education and you know, books and eventually you grow up and you learn, of course still to have a education, but you know, and when you learn, you start reading books. You start reading. Now what's called books that you like and you start discovering books you know, and and so and so forth.
But there are you know, is an expression that we all have, Yeah, and we express it through you know, different mediums, and and it's yeah, sorry, it sounds like I'm complaining. I think.
I think. I think it's interesting because I've just come back from France and I think that.
You're right.
You can walk around a small village and there'll be an encouragement around putting on small art exhibitions or just the infrastructure of the ways of sort of doing those things. And it's not necessarily about education in the UK because the school curriculum when it came to music when I remember it wasn't the kind of thing that would encourage
somebody to go into music. But perhaps it's just what I think what you're talking about, or my kind of understanding what you're talking about, is the ability to build for people to explore that kind of kind of creative inquisitiveness at an early age, to be able to if that piano is in the library, in that public space, in that classroom, in that corridor, or whatever it is, to just try and see if that's something.
Because I I had to have the privilege and I like you to have the privilege that I you know, I had a piano in my house.
You know, this is this is.
A lot of kids don't don't don't have that. They don't the music and listen to I don't know. You know, if you if you don't play piano, piano or an instrument, you don't listen to how the instrument is played, so you never you never look for you know, you never search for. You know, it's a bit you know, couteeling. You can never fall in love and never be a woman. You never know how it is to be a woman
or how it is to be love or whatever. So so you know, because they don't have that instrument, when they listen to music, they just listen to any any you know. It's you know, they have no clue. You've got to give. You have to give a child an option.
You have to, you know, tell them, let them know what they things that are there, so that they'll do things that are not at least, but it's you know, again going back to if I hadn't left to to France, I wouldn't have known that what's called exposure is vital and and if you're going to expose things that are nonsense to kids, at least exposed things that I was meaningful. Said that it's a bad That's all I'm saying.
You mentioned that you the night that you won the Mercury Prize. I was there in the room. You said that you're going to use the money for that purpose, and you haven't actually had the opportunity to do that, and it's still set in a bank account somewhere. Apart from that that we just discussed, what are your reflections on that night? Do you think about it often?
I've actually broken my Mercury Prize. I've broken it fell so then the top has come off. Yeah, the ball it's it's but it makes it quite special because it looks like different from all the other Mercury Prizes, So it's a special thing.
Did it full off the mental piece? It did?
Because we're moving. It was a great night. There's one that I live at. Let you know, I never thought it possible, but I thought that even if I win, it won't be just for me. I made my mind that whatever happened that day, it will be for the purpose of music and people coming together and celebrating their expressions.
So I was very, very moved through through through the whole thing, the whole program, because it goes all the way to even the person that made the America prior to the year the award, you know, and imagine the time they took and it's a it's all arts and you know, and obviously Lauren Verne, beautiful lada in Laverne and all the but but by the way, I started having clues. One, I've realized that Lauren wasn't talking about me too much. She mentioned my name talking about everybody else.
Is that all right? Okay, well, maybe she'll talked about talk about me on the bigger occasion. And then and then she asked me to play one of my songs. When I went on stage and I played, she didn't say anything about it. When is sat down, maybe I'm just there, what's good?
Looking back, you can see the signal.
And also I was sitting right at the very edge of the seat, which at the back of the chat all the judges, including you, as I suppose, yes, that's right, yes, that yeah, and the camera was right in front of me. So so you know, I didn't recognize all of this until I so I came back. I went back home after some months, then thought about it again and then none of but you know, I was, you know, I was blown away, but I was only you know, drafting. You know, I was a good happy for what had happened.
But I only thought about it, you know, after some few months about that, those littleal clues. I haven't said that. However, it was a very emotional night a week before that I was the Parst terrorist attack. I was, I was, I was torn.
And and.
I needed some sort of hope. I needed some some some sort of I I you know, of course I am stronger, but music needed my music, you know, I think it just needed that sort of I feel that it was meant to be, and so when when when I want it. I just felt that it was appropriate that I brought everyone on the stage too, to somehow stand in front of death and go, well we won, you know, or trauma or or fear, and say that you know, whatever happens, now know that we always win.
So it was it was a very very What's called a business is the time I never forget It's not it's the Americay Prize is smaller than the occasion, you know, because you can never bring it back. The prize is here, you know, but that moment made by the program and then that you know, the occasion, it's it's a bigger award. It's much of a bigger award for me. Me the award was standing on the stage with those people, those artists that can out television or you know, thinking you know,
you can't we see a lot of people. Apparently there's a lot of people watching. Yeah.
Yeah, it was a really meaningful moment because I don't think that's been done in Mercury history before with an artist. He's one has basically invited the other nominees to eleven other nominees I think, up onto the stage to effectively kind of received the prize along with you, to celebrate that moment. And you're right, in the context of what happened the week before in Paris, it did feel like very emotional occasion. Clearly what happened in Paris was still
a very painful thing. Still is when was the first time after winning the award that you returned to Paris and kind of felt the atmosphe in the city and what was that like? I mean, I should probably explain as well that Obviously you were born in London, but you spent three years or so in Paris more than that, and then you spent time in New York recently. But Paris is still a city that I assume means a
great deal to you. So, yeah, that experience of going back to Paris after winning the prize to kind of witness how that city was in the aftermath, how was that experience?
Well, funny you just asked that question if you knew what I was about to say next, And that was that before winning the Mercurys. The week before that, I was in Paris. I was living in the brothel, but a very very it's basically it was. It was not brothel, but it was. It was a hostel. I chose to live. It's a hostel. And you know, every night it was you know, someone screaming or you know, yeah, having sex. And the room was about the little work bigger than this room you were in.
I should say that, Yeah, it's what kind of six meets by six meters something like that. And and.
I was I was, you know, at my computer, and I was composing my keyboard, my little keyboard. I came here, came out to England for the occasion, I didn't think I win. Of course I wanted. The next day, I went back to the room. The room that's a little worm was called what's it called a wardrobe like wall? You know those small things you can put like glass or whatever, and now like a sideboard type thing. Yeah, yeah, on the wall. I took them, I took the prize
and I just put it right there. I led them bed, looked out through the window and I just thought to myself, this is life. You know, this is life. You know, you can't force it, you know, it just happens, you know, and of course unfortunate. But these these are the things that they make me not only appreciate life, but also I think they make me more humble. After winning the Mercury Prizes, went back to Paris and they laid down,
and I just appreciated, appreciated life anymore. And at that time I still didn't have I didn't have a house that time. You know, it's wondering, you know I And you know, personally, I like I like doing that, you know, I like staying in cheap pastels. And so you get to meet those people, and you get to meet foreigners, and you get to meet, you know, different people you
know who are also coming to stroll. And that's what that's what life means to me, you know, meeting people and even if you don't talk to them, you see them, you know, and you observe them. That's talking to them too. That's that's the way. There's a way of expression I think of an expression.
Yeah, so you spent time over the years, obviously London, Paris that we just talked about. Twenty sixteen, you went to New York and had some time there. How how long were you in New York.
For I was in New York about a year a bit, but I was going backwards and forts I was traveling mostly around America. It's just because I was touring. I was touring in Europe. Got tired of Europe touring my album which obviously it came out to you ven fifteen, but I had performed it for almost three years before, you know, so I was living there, going around, you know. Eventually I in London in New York that was the last show. So it's sad to stay there.
And right, what were your impressions when you arrived in New York and what were your impressions when you left New York feel different.
Well, it's certainly shorter too to leave New York to London, and it is to going to New York shorter. So that's a good thing. Because I hate flights. Not a good flyer, well I am these days, I'm pretending not to, but I I hated Yeah, but but okay, for me, New York is like Paris, but contemporary one where things are built to the most grigormous or what's a good uh form, just for the sake of impression. I lived at a place called Lafayette House, which is off Bowery
and Greenwich Villages. There's like what seven minutes from Granich Village, so it's and you know, the place I lived was also you know, the person who luckily again fortunately fortunately I met some really nice people who happened to be artists. One of them was the girlfriend of Jean Michael Basquat, and her brother owned a place I was living. So
you know, it wasn't I still wasn't. Really I've heard to say it, but it wasn't like I'd gone to Mars, you know, because every day I was talk about arts and and I saw my friend Julian as well, who was a great artist for me. He lives he lives in Greenwich Village. But the people, I would say, the American people, if if you're talking about America, obviously people say that depends on where you go. I beg to differ.
I think the Americans are the same for me. They've talked differently of course different places, but I think they've got the same heart. They're really nice people, and I think they get offended when they are told they're not nice people. I suppose, like everybody I personally, I didn't see any fault. I didn't didn't encounter any problems of anyone, nothing, Nothing happened that made me think that Americans are what
we protect them, you know, to be in Europe. In Europe, we think because I ignorant and half of them don't even have passport, which is might be true because America is a beautiful place. Some people wouldn't want to go anywhere else. But for me, you know, of course, no one should tolerate, tolerate, you know, anyone killing somebody or and that's that's a different issue, you know, that's that's I'm I'm just talking from my story and my experiences.
I find them really very funny, very peaceful human beings. I'd say, who love they love nature, They really love nature. I totally appreciate my time. There was one that was very sad one, but it also made me learn a lot. And I got that. I got my visa. I've been telling the other people about this visa. It's an one visa, but it's the reason why you're in America. And so you're in America because you've got an ability. That's the reason why in America in America because they like, they
love you. You're there because you've got an ability, and that you're going to make them some money. And then afterwards you're going to was off. You're gonna go back to your your poor, your poor home somewhere around the world, and and not not not to have a return. And if you're going to return, you might also proved that you're going to make them a lot of money. You're gonna get them some You're gonna show them your ability. So it's aordin alien of extraordinarability of gisther. And that's
that's what I received. And it made me laugh and angry, sad, and I thought that I'll just take the positives you know and just write something. That's what really triggered the whole thing, really triggered the second album. So going to America I certainly felt like an alien, put in a good way. You know, no one recognize me, or they only recognize me because of my hair, but it was it was a nice experience.
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