Loud and Quiet Presents Midnight Chats. You don't need me to tell you that. If there's been one red hot topic that's dominated national and international politics for the last few years, it's immigration and post Brexit, post Trump. It continues to do so. So maybe it's surprising that more musicians haven't tackled the topic the subject in some way from some angle, but I guess it's one of those
things that's still very divisive. However, my guest on this episode of Midnight Chats has talked about it, has written about it, and it's Ghost Poet. Last month in April, he shared the first taste of new music from his
fourth album that will be out later this year. It's an emotive and pretty arresting piece of storytelling called Immigrant Boogie, written from the perspective of a father, his wife, and his children in a desperate situation traveling on board an immigrant boat attempting to make a journey to a better quality of life, something we've read a lot about and heard a lot about in the media the last few years.
I'm happy if you want to pause this podcast and go check out the song and come back to this, because for me, it's a really powerful piece of songwriting, and one which forms a large part of this conversation that you're about to hear, which was recorded when a barrow came into our office here at Loud and Quiet a couple of weeks back. It also won't have escaped to notice that there's a general election just around the corner here in the UK two, so we talk about
that as well. If you're thinking, oh, this episode sounds like it's going to be a bit heavy, it wasn't all, I promise. We also chatted about how he's recently moved out of his native London, got a place in Margate on the coast, and like lots of other people in the creative industries have in the last few years, where he's hatching plans to start his own online radio station, so we hear about his inspiration from wanting to do that.
There's also a barking dog in the background of some of this and we like to kind of keep that stuff in, I should say, in case you need any background on Ghost Poet. He's the British artist who was based in Coventry after studying there but almost a decade and he's released three albums, two of which have been nominated for the prestigious Mercury Prize, including his most recent one, Shedding Skin back in two thy fifteen I think it was, and he's also been a judge for that as well.
In person, he's a really gracious guy, quite softly spoken, but very focused and humble. You'll hear me mentioned this in the podcast too, that right back at the start of Midnight Chats in the spring of last year, he helped us skeet this podcast up and run him by writing some music for it, which we're still really grateful for.
And that's kind of the ideal opportunity to say that if you do like what you hear, there are now more than twenty five episodes to go back and listen to, everyone from Ryan Adams to Laura Marlin, Rizamed to Mac DeMarco and last time out, Stuart was speaking to slow Dive.
So do subscribe.
That means you'll get every new episode that goes up fortnightly on a Thursday at midnight. And if you want to leave us a review, rate us or comment that all helps in spreading the word too. Anyway, I will leave you to this. I hope you enjoy a conversation. This is episode twenty seven of Midnight Chats with Ghost Poets. Before we kick off, I've got to say thank you to you because we've been doing this podcast for about eighteen months now, in the spring last year with an old,
battered laptop and a microphone we bought off eBay. I didn't really know what we're doing, and you kindly lent some music to us to really get our podcasts off the ground.
So yeah, yeah you did.
So you've been there since the starting.
A way, indeed very much. You're welcome, sir.
How have you been anyway?
Yeah, really good, really good, and just been you know, pottering, really pottering. Moved to Margate about four four months ago and yeah, wond this all was in zen life.
Now have you lived in the city all your life? And this is the kind of first move out of the big smoke in.
No. I moved to Coventry when I was like eighteen for university and then I stayed there for about ten years or so in total, and then moved back to London. So London and Coventry, so it wasn't totally alien for me to move out of London, but yeah, it feels like it's different type of move I think being in
this sea is really good. Everything being so close where you can walk through everything in like ten to fifteen minutes, and bumping into people and having conversations a bit much like this, there's like wholesome conversation where it isn't about how much you've been able to achieve in your in your life thus far. It's just like I think, yeah, cool, we're up to but it's nice. Yeah.
Was it a mixture of like having enough of certain elements of living in a city like London and the appeal of having a little bit more kind of time and space? Was it one more than the other?
For sure? It was the desire to have a bit more space was starting to get stronger and stronger. And yeah, it was just like London, it's just very busy and mentally it's very for me, it has become very draining, just because just the way it's set up is the capital city, and you know, living here you sign almost like a contractor disc constantly have beyond attack mode, you know, constantly being this kind of I've got to keep working. I've got to if I'm enjoying my life in any way,
I'm going to feel guilty about it. I just didn't want to do that anymore, and I was born here. I still love it, but it was time to find another base of operations, you know.
So what are the things you're enjoying about marketing?
Being able to walk to everywhere it was great to see obviously, just making lots of new friends and lots there's a lot of artists, a lot of creatives down there, and there's lots of really interesting opportunities that come about from a place where for a long time it was there was hardly anything going on, like the traditional kind of seaside industry was unfortunately was devastated by the introduction of like cheap flights abroad through like things like easy
Jet and so on and so forth. So for a long time it was just on its knees. So it slowly started to develop again. And there's this opportunities I'm trying to start, and like I mentioned, I'm trying to start like a radio station, aren't there, And just trying to give Margate a voice through music and give people an idea of what's going on down there in terms of the creative arts and so on and so forth. Really, so, yeah,
it's quite an inspiring place, I haven't. I haven't actually made any music since I've moved down there, so I don't know what is going to come out from it when I start making music again.
But I was going to say, because when when often when you read about the things people say about the music, that you make a consistent reference that always pops up is this is the sound of the city, this is the urban sound of nighttime. If I have to read that ghost it's new track sounds ideal for listening to on a night Plus, do you know what I mean? It's a regular reference. How do you I guess you don't know yet, But how do you imagine that that new scenery might sort of appear in your music?
I don't know. I really really don't know. I kind of I know, I'm very much more my mind is much more settled living in market now, and I feel like, I don't know if I could put like I never think about it in generous sense.
But.
I assume that the music will come out much more relaxed and much more kind of scenic, which is not what I want. So I don't know. It's kind of like it's like you could say the same about somebody like Nick caves, not in terms of my music, but in terms of somebody who lives by the sea, lives in Brighton, and it hasn't seemed to affect his music. He's still very much makes what he wants to make. I don't think it all change dramatically, but I feel it will seep in this in slight shape or form
for sure. I just don't know how yet. It's almost like a fear. I feel that's what's stupp in me. I'm afraid to find that what will well, how it will manifest itself in music. So I've just just deciding not to make any So yeah, I'll come back to you and let you know how that one goes.
It's a familiar trend, like not just from London, but also like other big cities across the UK or even places like New York, whereby particularly people in the creative industries, you know, have moved further and further away from their sort of like traditional heartlines within the city. What's it like being part of a sort of growing creative community in somewhere like Margate, Like how have the sort of
traditional Margate locals welcomed in? You know? I don't imagine they've had people coming along saying like having the enthusiasms to set up a radio station or club night or yeah, something a little bit more experimental. Is there any friction between those things?
Not really, not on the surface. There is definitely. You know, you've got people who've lived there for forever, you know, who may look at that the new influx of people think this isn't what market needs. And there's stuff like Dreamland, which is a retro amusement park that's okening up again soon where it's going to be like a they're building like a fifteen thousand outdoor stage space and bars and stuff like that, and I'm sure there's local people think
that's not what market needs. So there's definitely that camp, and then you've got a camp of people who are embracing it. And there's a lot of the businesses that are being set up in Market by people who've just moved down in the last four or five years are very much about trying to build a community and not kind of not to say it's only London specific, but there is this kind of thing of going into an area and then almost just taking over and making it
in your own image. Whatever that is. And I feel like the characters moving down to Margate and the people who have been there for a period of time very much understand that it's important to incorporate everybody within anything and the sensitivity for sure, for sure, And I think that's it's the stand to the type of people moving down there, and it's I guess the general feeling of people that yeah, there's a community spirit here, it just needs to be built on rather than created from scratches
some shape or form. So it's really, excuse me, it's really interesting to see yeah, people, local people and newer people being together in a club night or in a coffee shop and this like this, you know, just living beside each other. I think it's like it's like a social experiment really, but I really I'm enjoying seeing the developments, you know.
So moving away from London, has that been the kind of big life change, the kind of significant stuff that's happened in the time since really shedding skin?
It's the last record I what have I done? I got married last year and congratulations, thank you, Like I shouldn't really forget that, but yeah, that up in last year. And I think for me it's always kind of been a case of being inspired by this living, you know, rather than creative pursuit. So yeah, getting married is a life changing thing, and making the moves to market is
another life changing thing. And there's been you know, ups and downs in between personally wise over the last couple of years, and all these things are just stored up basically for me. And whence I start putting down music again, it just starts to come out in its own shape or form. But yeah, just like I can't say it enough,
I feel so much more relaxed about everything. And I feel it's good for me because mentally, you can not that affected my music so much, but I just feel it's nice to be in a good mental state to just deal with everything that the music industry confer at you,
you know. And I would say it's definitely been a couple of years of this life development really and obviously touring the last record, which was good and it was really really well received, which was nice, but that kind of just pitted off and I was just living, you know, just trying to be a good human being. You know. Yeah,
it's been nice to have that time. And you know, I'm thirty four now, so it's kind of like, as much as I am very much about the music, I'm just trying to think about other things and what else I can do with my life away from music.
You know, let's talk about Immigrant Boogie, because that was the track that you shared in the middle of April. Tell me a little bit more about that song because it's written from a first person perspective on a topic presumably is that you've kind of like it has really resonated with you. So what made you want to write about that as a subject matter.
Well, my music has always been about I guess, social commentary and writing from trying to write in the moment, and it was just something that was just I was being bombarded with wherever I look to be it, you know, visually on the television or you know, stuff that I was reading, and it just felt like right to talk about it. You know, it's not kind of like it's been kind of banded around as a kind of you know,
a strong political statement, and it's not that. It's kind of it's something that I felt was very much the zeitgeist of the time, where it's everyone's either talking about it or it is very much it's it's it's people are aware of what's going on with immigration and the immigration crisis, so it felt like the right kind of thing to write about, really and like this kind of decided to do it as a song.
Is it something that you feel, like lyrically is empathetic because he talks about the experience of somebody bringing their children and being with their family and like very obviously extreme circumstance. Is it, in any sense like a kind of call to action, you saying like this is still an important thing that we need to recognize, and kind of just because it's not being reported in the headlines perhaps as much as it has been like week to week, it's still like a desperate situation.
Or Yeah, for sure, I wouldn't say it's a cool for arms because throughout my career, I've never I've never wanted to put my political views out there because I've always wanted to this. I never wanted to alienate anybody. I just wanted I want as many people as possible to hear my music and appropefully appreciating. So it's not
me chicking out chicking chicken in out. It's more kind of a case of I wanted to write from the perspective of somebody in that situation, but almost kind of tried to put the listener in their shoes, and this question if if you were in their shoes, how would you react or how would he deal with a situation? And that's kind of what I've always tried to do.
I guess with this it's just a bit more maybe hard hitting, and I'm a bit more concentrated in subject matter when before and still I kind of always have tried to never kind of stuck to one particular path. I may want to talk about a particular thing, but I'll link it to other things and connect it all within one song, and with this is one of the few I would say what I felt like. I just want to focus on one particular thing and carry that
through the whole song. So, yeah, it's been interesting the reaction to it. It's hard hitting, which is what Oh dog, it's yeah, it's it's it's immediate, and that's what I wanted it to be. I wanted I didn't want to meander. I wanted to just hit the listener from from the earth.
Did you have an image of a particular person that you were writing it in mind, or was there a particular event that that spurred you on to write about it.
I just this in the news is reading again and again and again about groups of people with inadequate equip meant trying to get over either to hear or into
you know, Italy or somewhere into Europe. And it was just it was almost getting to a point where it was just becoming so normal to just hear about another dinghy boat where hundreds of people have drowned or you know, haven't survived because they were you know, sold a dodgy boat and they were given and fake life what do you call it, well, like people trafficking gi yeah, all
that stuff and in another content, yeah, for sure. And it was just like I just thought it was just it just really hit me, this is this is crazy to think in twenty seventeen or twenty sixteen, really when I wrote it, where this is happening, this is becoming normal, you know, And it just it wasn't like an immediate
thing like I need to write about it. But when I when it was the right time for me to sit down and write music, this was one of the things that just came out, you know, and I just thought it just felt right to write about this and if nothing comes from it other than people just reminding themselves of this situation, then that's good enough for me.
It's just kind of I just I just shocking, and you see the images and the videos, and like there was the one small boy that was found dead on the beach, and just like, how have we how have we let this happen as humans? You know, how is this possible? It's just yeah, that's where it kind of stems from. You know.
It was interesting, wasn't it That it took something so that that was in I think twenty fifteen, Yes, that was the three year old Syrian boy who was the photograph of him kind of washed up on a beach in Turkey.
Horrible, absolutely horrible.
But what did you think But the fact that it took something that kind of explicit and extreme for it to make it onto the front page of some newspapers, I don't know.
I can't talk for the media. I guess it just felt it felt like it was extreme enough, I guess for it to make the front pages. Maybe it shouldn't have taken something like that to happen for it to become major news. But the news works in its own way, you know, it's just yeah, it's just sad, you know, it's just really sad. And yeah, it just felt like, especially nowadays, where I just again I've always just been very stubborn in that respect that I've always tried to
go against what seems to be the norm. And I'm just sick tired it's just the same old shit where it's like not everyone at all, and because you could even say a section of the music coming out of studios, but it's just so much of this kind of like everything's fine, you know, it's all good, let's go and have a good time, and it's like, no, it's not, it's not and it's not me you know, banging the drama and you know, going political, but it's just a
case of things are going to shit. And I don't know if it was Nina Simone or somebody said that, you know, it's the it's the role I'm paraphrasing, but it's like the role of an artist is to right about the times. And it just felt like my duty to do that, you know, in my own way, and I think I'd be cheating myself by not doing that, you know, So it just felt right.
It's interesting to hear say that, because I was going to ask about how there were lots of people that felt very discouraged by the state of things just because of the sort of tumultuous politics the last like eighteen months or whatever. Those people that were, you know, wanted to understand the kind of put a try and chin up, et cetera. Or it's like, well, in times of like strife, you know, great art gets made. And I suppose that is you know, they were maybe taking that as a
bit of a consolation. But do you think that's true? And do you think that I mean, it sounds to me like you kind of like take a responsibility to kind of reflect the times. But is it an artist's responsibility to vocalize that stuff?
Do you think there's different schools of thought, isn't it? It's like I, on one hand, I feel no, it isn't you know, it isn't a responsibility of an artist too. Doug again, I like dogs, so great nights.
That was like a friendly dog.
Yeah yeah, And one how I feel like it isn't the responsibility of an artist too. Artists right with the fun they want to write that's that's one that's I ficked. I wake up. I would think like that one day. On some days and other days I feel like we should write about the times I feel it's important to As always, I always feel it's important to write your own unique story and stories. But how can I just don't get how, And again I always get myself in
trouble by talking like this. I'm not saying any particular The douggrees, I'm not particular particularly saying that you know your shit as an artist because you don't do this. But I feel like, how can you not use the advantage of having a mouthpiece, you know, opportunity to air your views or share your thoughts or whatever, and not take that and just go down the what I would call it easy route of just writing about you know, partying or you know going to the club, going to
the club, or you know, lovey dovey stuff. It's cool, you know, love is great. But I just feel like there's things to talk about now, and I feel I personally want to go down that route route I always have. I just for once decided to just make music that
was a bit more concentrated. Yeah, I do my own thing, I always have, and everyone has to do their own thing and I'm never going to turn around and be like dismissive of an artist who has the balls to put music out there, whatever it is, and you know, go through, go through what it takes to get music out there nowadays. But I just feel I'm leaning more towards the idea that you should you should say something.
You know, again, it doesn't have to be political, but it's important to, yeah, say something of substance, you know, as much as you can or as much as you feel comfortable doing.
You know, when we go into a period now whereby you know, we're into that election period and the news is full of kind of every twist and turn of campaigning and the run up to something like that. He the kind of person that engages, like wants to know every kind of minute by minute update in the run up to something like a general election, or you somebody who needs to take a step back.
It's very draining trying to keep up to it on a day to day basis. I go through periods of this listening to talk radio like LBC, and it's it's just training so draining. Hearing the difference of opinion and the bickering and the back and forth and this is happening because you know, the last party in power did that, and you know we're going to do this, and you know, it's like, I maybe it's idealistic, but I just wanted
I just want peace. I just want peace, and I want I want people to be treated fairly and everyone to have opportunities to better their lives. It's really simple for me, and yeah, it is really draining. So like once I knew the election was announced, I kind of was just like, yeah, I'm gonna have to step back from this because I get to wound up about it and I just feel like, yeah, I just I just feel like I've got to just live my life and
not not be ignorant about it. But I'm very much aware of what's going on and keeping the breast, but not as as not as in depth, not as much as I would I would in the past. I think in the last few years, I've decided this to yeah, be zen, but then as much as possible. You know, it sounds like a.
Wise approach going back to talking about, you know, discussing your art and the kind of like the responsibility that you feel about wanting to kind of reflect the times that we live in on Immigrant Boogie. You've you've got one of the guys from Shame who if people Charlie from Shame, if people haven't come across that band. They're a band from South London, released a few tracks but have kind of got an album in the in the pipeline relatively kind of like new to a lot of people.
They're a young band with a political voice and that they're kind of they're very they're very open about their kind of views and things like that. So is that an attraction to like finding discovering that band?
Not really, I kind of I must have been on uh stevehl Max Round Table and six Music and he must have played whatever their first single was, gold Hole. I think I just it's one of those moments you're just like, what the hell is that? And he was like, Oh, it's a band called Shame, blah blah and okay cool. I just was just playing that to death, really and once I wanted to make some music and I started,
I made this. I just thought it'd be great to have him on it, just kind of as an ominous kind of voice in the background, because I love his I love his tone, I love his voice. We got in contact and he was really up for it. He was really he's really he's like I think I was seventeen eighteen or stuff like that. It made me feel very old. And he's just full of ideas and just like you know, just so many things he wants to do with the band and with music in general, and
it was just fascinating just conversing with him. So yeah, it was really nice to get him involved in this track. And I like working with interesting artists, simple as that, and I just found him interesting. Luckily, you know, he wanted to get involved.
When we're talking earlier about the inspiration of writing about the kind of like the what's happening in the news and the national conversation around you know, issues, be it immigration or whatever, do you ever feel any kind of like trepidation about writing about those kind of things, because, as we've already discussed, some people kind of avoid those
type of subjects completely. So, you know, on the eve of putting out something like Immigrant Boogie, do you think what is your thought process about how people might receive it? And I mean people, I assume because of sometimes worried about writing those kind of subjects because they're a fear of a backlash, But I think a lot of people appreciate honesty. So have you ever had a backlash when you've written about a subject matter like that?
No, like this feel like I kind of I wrote it purposefully that it wasn't taking a side, and I'm not taking aside. I'm just trying to shine a light on this particular subject. So I felt like that would help the cause in a sense of not trying, like I mentioned previously, alienating people by saying right, this is wrong or this is right and blah blah blah. I just felt like I just want I just want to shine a light on this. And I didn't really have
a full process. I never really do with making music. I never did in the beginning, and I've just tried to keep that alive over the last six seven years. I've been doing it where I just make what I want, really and I've been very lucky in the resecting in the sense that I've been able to I've been given the time to be able to shape my sound or not even sound, but like the direction I wanted to go in musically. So I don't feel anyone really really
not for theactions thus far. I don't think anyone's totally shocked by what I've written, you know, because I've always just tried to be truthful. So yeah, I've never really had backlash, and even if I did, I wouldn't really care in the sense of, I've just got to make
what I want to make. You know, the moment I start to overthink it and start to think, what's this particular person going to think, or you know, this audience in this country, or you know that particular press person or whatever, then I'm just gonna I'm going to lose something, you know, I'm going to lose what I feel makes me me, and I never want to do that. So I kind of just doing my own thing and you know, seek my own counsel. You know.
I want to ask about music discovery because, like, throughout your career, the three albums you put out to date, and you know, we've already mentioned that you've got Charlie on Immigrant Boogie, You've been somebody who's always kind of, like I guess, shared the microphone with other artists that you really admire. You've done radio shows on so Radio, and you've kind of always been quite passionate about wanting to share the other music that you discover. So how
do you discover new music? Where are your kind of like trusted source is where do you Where do you find the stuff that you go on to love?
Everywhere through the power of Shazam is very powerful. Oh god, it's on my phone which is currently charging, and it's off some kind of a fure jazz thing that I heard in like Worldwide FM, like Charles Peterson's station.
Radio station.
It's really good, and like through like researching stuff for my own station, I want to start. I've being listening to like Worldwide FM, red Light Radio and Amsterdam, the Lot Radio, New York, Berlin Community Radio, so he Radio, six Music and so it's it's stations like the ones mentioned and this just living and going everywhere and just literally hearing something either asking what the hell is that or hiz imming and then I just literally just compile stuff.
And I also get sent a few things, and if I jump on a radio station like six Music or whatever, I'll say, oh, what's that? Who's who you been listening to? And this kind of a combination of these things. Really, I just kind of feel like there is so much about especially nowadays, trying to you know, I'm releasing a single, I'm releasing the album, so it's really important that everything
is focused on me. But it's like, unless you're a superstar, there's so much music out there, it's impossible to do that for longer than maybe a week or two if you're lucky. So I'm a massive fan of music. I was a fan of music way before making my own, and I don't feel the need to change in a sense of promoting other people. If I hear something new or you know, someone young or old, I have no hesitation to just talk about it, you know, or it on a radio show, or just put a link on
social media post. Why not? You know, music should be about discovery, not just keeping everyone in your own little, you know, part of the world. I just think it's important to discover as much as you can. Really, there's so much music. How can you just how can you not do that? It's weird to not want to do that, So I just keep doing it, you know.
And your vision for starting your own radio station, Yeah, those places you've just mentioned all doing fantastic things, individual, global things. That's the beauty of being able to start like an online radio station. Sure you can listen to a New York radio station and see what they're playing
or whatever. Yeah, what's your vision for it? Will it have a focus on the talent and the sounds of the local area, or will it have a real kind of broad offering in your kind of mind's eye, what would be the absolute perfect scenario with starting your own radio.
It's a combination with the too. I want to I want to focus on local artists musically, but it's kind of a case of I want to create a station that isn't only just music. It's also discussion and talking about you know, social social stuff and I don't know whatever, whatever people want to talk about. I want to create a platform for that as well as new music, as well as potentially visiting DJs and artists. And I want
to do literal stuff. I want to record dislike talks and someone's bringing out a book and record them talking about the book, reading from the book, or well, this is a kind of like it's small smorgas board. I love, I've never used that word in the conversation. Kind of a smorgas board of sorts. And yeah, so like art, culture,
music discussion, that's what I want it to be. It is great that with online radio, you can reach a much wider audience than you know, an FM dial And I do want it to be global, but I want it to be very much a case of a reflection of Margate and the characters that make up Margate, but also the quality output in the creative, creative sense of like I said, our culture discussion, that's that's the that's the plan. We'll see how it goes really, but yeah, that's the plan.
When you're an independent artist and you're on the verge of making your fourth album, you've been doing this probably approaching a decade, so, like, is it hard? Sometimes? Is it? Is it a tough journey to reach this kind of point because you know, all we see is the kind of the creative output and see you on stage and everything else, but behind the scenes doing it yourself for this period of time, it's a tough journey.
Yeah, it is, and it and it has luckily it's been more positive negative, but it's there's a number of things. I guess it's kind of being a solo artist. Is it's a lonely place. You know, you've got to kind of have band members to bounce ideas of, so to speak, or you know, discuss or you know, learn from. So that was has always been interesting and because of the kind of music that I make, it's not totally unique, but it's not many people likeing this call up and say, oh, well,
you know, we make similar things. How would you do go about doing this and doing that? It was There's been a lot of learning as I've gone along and still learning and being independent and trying to make music that isn't just just pop ship where it's just like, you know, just easy to listen, easy to digest, has its own you know, it's it's been a it's been
a longer journey. You know, the journey still continues, but it's I know from the beginning that it would be a longer road for me because I wanted I didn't want to make this boring pop ship and not to say pop music is shipped. You know, Harry Styles some of the time is not bad. You know, I've been bombarded with that song and it's not too bad, but you know it's not It wasn't a road. It wasn't a road I was going to go down, So I
knew it was going to be trickier. I've just been really lucky that I've been, you know, I've been on Browns with for Brown's Recordings for the first record, and he let me do what I wanted to do. And I've been with PS Recordings Play Against Sam for the last two records, and again they've just let me do what I want to do, you know, and they've allowed me to grow, and I think that was really important for me. Yeah, I wouldn't want it any other way,
I think. I think being and then on the indie label and an independent artists whatever that means these days, is kind of it's all always it's it's nice to just being have that creative freedom and just being able to make whatever I want to make and having way more controlled over the visual aspects and the artwork and so on and so forth. It's what I've always tried to do. It's always the longer road. And yeah, I'm not going to be chilling with Richard Branson on on
a private island anytime soon. But I can look back at what I've made and say that I've made things that I really wanted to make. There's nothing that I can I regret making at all, and that is a success for me. That's that's what I see as a success, just being able to look back at my catalog and say, yeah, there's no regrets in there, you know. So yeah, so far, so good.
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