You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast.
Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. What did you pay for your face? There are serums, There are needles. There are lasers and bright lights and things that look like alien probes. There are vampire facials and red wine bats and beef fat and bird pooh and salmon sperm, all of which apparently are to be put in our skin.
A deep plane facelift, something called a bless a vigorous resurfacing, a browlift, a necklift, and a little light lipole, all of them shouting I can give you what you want, your old face back. It's confusing because even if that is what I want, a version of me that hasn't lived as long and seen so much and insists on showing it all off in the lines and dints and blotches, Even if that is what I want, how do I know if I will get it?
All?
These promises can't be trued? Can they? An ageless ideal that only the wealthy and well connected can touch? How brave and rich do I have to be to see my old self looking back from my phone? And what if what if I just move my blusher up an inch. Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife, mid family, mid serum. When I'm having a face panic, when I am standing in front of an ocean of products that all promise to keep me young, tight, relevant, and bouncy.
Was I ever those things? That's a conversation for another time. But I do something that you probably can't do. I text Lee Campbell is this worth the money?
I ask?
Which one of these isn't bullshit?
I ask?
Is it possible this one will release my inner Gwyneth? I type, and Lee always tells me the truth, which, in terms of that last question is always no. But anyway, I met Lee years ago, gosh, I want to say, like seven years ago ish. When I convinced her to
come and work at MoMA Mia. I wooed her in a professional sense to come and help us be good at beauty because she was a legend in the space, a beauty editor for a very long time, beauty director at Cosmopolitan, back when magazine beauty editors were wined and dined and flown around the world by all the brands advertising in the bursting, glossy pages. Then she was lifestyle director at the Huffington Post, and then she came to
Mom and Mia, where she changed everything for us. Now, of course, Lee is the host of You Beauty and Nothing to Wear, two lifestyle podcasts that are the cornerstone of Mom and MIA's lifestyle stuff. And more than that, she's a grou who now has her own brand, Prilo Beauty. But anyway back to me and in front of all the delicious promises of the beauty world, Essentially, what I always want to ask Lee is what works, and that's
what she's doing here today. Whether you have a twelve step skincare routine, a dorm on speed dial with all the latest tweatments, or whether you still use the same one pot of moisturizer you've had since you were twenty. Lee's going to tell us where to put our money when it comes to our faces, and she's going to tell us all the things that she's tried. It's so good.
I have to tell you. She got access to everything way before everybody else, so she knows her stuff, and she's going to tell us what the craziest thing she's ever done to her face is and what she's planning to do so. Welcome to a judgment free zone. Welcome to the Nobs beauty world of my friend Lee Campbell. Lee, you have been working in the beauty world for two decades because you've been doing this your whole career, different ways, different different levels. How do you feel about beauty now?
Is it an advantage or a disadvantage to know so much as we change.
That's a complex one to answer because it's definitely two sided. I think back when I started magazines, that's where I was. It was a Cosmopolitan magazine and there was maybe twenty mastheads that were read by most Australian women.
There was not really the Internet.
I mean it existed, but no, there definitely wasn't social media, and there was usually a beauty one beauty head at each magazine, and we went to all the events and then wrote all the articles and told everyone what to use and what not to use. So twenty women in media and Australia, mostly white, telling everyone what to do and not to.
Do, mostly white and mostly twenty correct.
That's right, And so I think now, you know, I jumped to digital and now not that it's brand new, but social media is great because it's the democratization of beauty. You know, we're seeing so many amazing faces and skin types and hair types, and you know, concern and then people who have that concern that you can relate to.
So I think beauty's good.
I think it has exploded to the point where it's incredibly confusing and overwhelming and sometimes intentionally so. But I think it's in a better place maybe than it was. Or do we know too much? I don't know, but I think I'm in a good place that I know what's bullshit and what's not. And it's I liken it to someone trying to understand, like me trying to understand tennis.
When people are like I don't get it, what do I And I'm like, you know, you just you do your active and then you do that and they're like what. And then when I watch sport, I'm like, love, why is that a goal? So it's exactly.
Why I wanted you to come on. So we're friends, We are mid listeners, and I am one of the luckiest women in the country because when I'm confused about beauty or I'm standing in the chemist, I'm standing in Mecca and I'm like, I literally can text Lee Campbell. Ye, now, you guys can't do that. So I want to give you a taste of what it's like. I mean, you could listen to you Beauty, of course, and she shares her knowledge all the time. But I want to give
you a taste of it. But before we get onto some of that practical stuff, you told me how I feel about the beauty industry, How do you feel about beauty for you? Because I wonder how you've been living and swimming in this world and looking at your face and trying a million things like you get to try
everything for better for worse for twenty two years. Does it make you very hard on yourself when you look in the mirror or does it actually make you more accepting because you're kind of like, I know what's going on here.
Yeah, the latter, I think. I mean, I think if I was starting out in the beauty industry now in my twenties, I might feel I mean, we didn't have reverse phone cameras, we didn't have social media. We went to work and our computer was a PC where you couldn't take it home and do more work like a laptop. So I think if I was starting out in beauty media now, and I was young and naive and probably
more impressionable, it wouldn't be great. But I've aged with the industry and now forty three, I know what's what, I know what I might want to do. I don't care enough really that much anymore to you know.
So it doesn't make you super self critical.
No, I think.
No. I'm worry more about the younger people, younger people, particularly with social media, and I think that's why there's a lot of good rules in place.
But no, I just think it's getting a bit silly.
So let's get to the stuff that is useful to our listeners, because, as I've said, I want them to feel like, no matter where you're at with beauty, whether you put water on your face and a moisturizer or whether you have a beautician and you're spending all the dollar bills, I want us to talk about like what's worth doing, what's not. Do you think there's one mistake And obviously I'm like mistake in speech marks, because we know there are no mistakes, right, but one mistake that
women make when they get older with them makeup. Let's start with makeup.
I remember back at Cosmo interviewed Jessica Albers makeup artists, Jessica Alba, I don't know how old, she's probably roughly my age.
And they were saying that as we get.
Older, so maybe in Jessica Grabble was like twenty seven at the time, women should lean away from powdered products and switch to creams because a cream finished more mimics, you know, a skin texture, which is true, but a lot of that then comes down to your skin type.
So I am combinations.
So I've still got very oily tea zone and then quite dry out of face. But that's true in a way in that obviously powders and I think generations like ours. You know, I'm in my mid forties, you're in your early fifties. A lot of the formulas were powdery powders,
you know, and thick textures. And then I think as we perhaps get older and get more insecure or think there's more things to hard, we put on thicker concealers or foundations where we should be going backwards, because you want to have thinner textures that are more sort of radiant, lightweight, don't sit in fine lines, don't kind of highlight paws, and you know, a full coverage foundation is really going to want to stay in those paws and really highlight them.
So I think less and creamier textures, and I think, I mean, there's a general rule of thumb with hair color.
I know you've never had to color your hair.
No, I did it ly? Did you know?
Now?
I'm I remembersed, I remembered listening to a podcast recently, actually.
Said that, but for the first time in my whole life.
But anyway, I know, but you followed this rule because they generally say, go, you know, up to two shades lighter or darker because it's closer to your natural coloring, so it will be most flattering. Because if you do go black or blonde or somewhere, you know that's really
far from your natural coloring. Oftentimes you feel washed out or have to change your make up blah blah blah, which you might want to do, but it's just you know, to make life easier, more lightweight textures, creams, and then just kind of go with your natural coloring.
Lee recommended a concealer to me recently, which I think I've recommended on out loud because it was so cheap and so good. But that was why you recommended it, As you said, it's really light. So it's not because I think I go to the you know that I go to the makeup shop and I'm like, give me something that will fill everything up, you know, and you're like, no, the opposite is what you need to Yeah, so you recommended this concealer to me.
It was Revolution Beauty. I think it's like twelve dollars or fish and it's really light. Yeah. So's it's a technically kind of like an Underreye illuminator and I wear that, or there's one from Rare Beauty that I wear a lot that's also just an Underreye illuminator. And it's just
almost like a serum that it's tinted. And I've recently been researching I creams that are tinted because it's literally a skincare product, but it's got pigment in it, because the more I cake on there, the worse it looks.
And I also can't be bothered.
And I have a five year old, and I don't have time to precisely conceal and then powder bits and make sure the right bits are jury and the right bits of powdery. Less he's more in terms of kind of coverage. But that's not to say you shouldn't care about makeup. You know, and if you love it, you love it, right, that's right.
But I think the creamy thing is a great tip. I put a powder on my face for all the time.
I still do because I'm combo. But I've recently got into cream blushes. I have a war blush because I thought that it didn't suit me. But I feel like maybe my face is losing some color, which kind of happens, and so I'm having joy with cream blushes. But I just don't think what worked for you ten years ago it might still work for you when that's great. But don't be afraid to change just because you're a certain age or decade that you can't have fun with makeup.
It's fun, we're color do what do you want?
Do you think you have to spend a lot of money together? I mean, we just talked about that excellent cheap concealer, but I wonder, if you know those lightweight, creamy things, it is worth spending a bit of money. You tell me, do you get what you pay for? And if you are going to splurge on one or two things, what's worth splurging.
Look, no, you don't get what you pay for. I mean you do. It's not that saying doesn't always apply.
And that's because there are companies that, you know, are an overarching umbrella company that might own several brands within the industry that are summer high in summer what we call mass and then some are massediage, which is somewhere in the middle, and oftentimes they share formulas and technologies after a certain time period. Evolution Beauty, for example, not sponsored by them. Don't even know who runs them. You can get the right price on here, but I just
love that company. I have a feeling that it might be, you know, a diffusion brand from a more prestigious company that has a lot of money. But no, you don't have to spend a lot of money.
If you're like, I'll spend money on because for me and I might be wrong, and you should tell me if I am. I think it's base. I'm like, I think I don't mind spending a bit on a good sheerish foundation. I agree, I just find generally that seems to be better quality.
Yeah, well, look I think it's going it's taking up more real estate, and I think it's more costly to keep trialing an error to find the right foundation or base. So you know, places like your Sophoras and your mechas will give you a little sample pot that you can try. I mean, look, to be honest with you. Out of the ten foundations I reach for and I try many more, half are really affordable and half are really expensive. So not always, not always, But I would say generally my
whole beauty routine. If I was not in my job, I'd save my money for my skin care and go more affordable in my make.
I cheaper makeup, more expensive skin care. Yes, okay, everyone worries about wrinkles, and I'm even putting wrinkles inverted commas because there's just lines on our face that we get. But I heard Ray Morris say ages ago, and it's stuck in my head that this and this is why I'm spending my money on my base. But maybe this is a myth. I heard Ray Morris say that actually it's the uneven skin tone that's most aging rather than necessarily lines. Now, if we are trying to avoid looking
old and inverted comics, do you think that's true? And what do you do about that? In terms of skin care.
And make okay, so most aging, interestingly, is you mean the perception of age to someone else's eye.
Yes, which is true, let's be clear about that.
Yes, So there's been a lot of studies done that kind of prove this opinion. However, it depends on the demographic that you do, it on their ethnicity. So lighter colored skins will show more uneven tone, pigmentation, hyperpigmentation, all of that sort of stuff, but other races won't. And so it really depends on who you're asking and who
whose opinion you care about. But yes, there's been studies that have shown that, for the most part, an uneven skin tone appears to age someone visibly more in someone else's eyes than wrinkles too, And that's because wrinkles are going to happen no matter what. Even if you were a vampire that sat in a dark room for your entire life, you would still get wrinkles thanks to moving your face and eating and drinking and.
Just imagining this like really pissed off bampire is like last time, I don't even laugh.
For right, And that's called intrinsic aging, and it's gonna happen no matter what you do, how good you are. And then extrinsic aging is lifestyle factors like exposure to the sun or even just UV diet, And when I say diet, not dieting, I mean nutrition, menopause, and hormones kind of falls into both because it's going to happen to you no matter what. But also then what you do around that all the reason why.
People get morepentation around perry and menopause.
Yeah, malasma, that's called malasma, and that often happens around pregnancy or perry. Nutrition, I said, smoking and toxins like your glass of wine. Not that I'm saying I don't do that, I mean I do most of these things. But yeah, photoaging is the aging of the skin. That's when it's uneven, and that is all different types of pigmentation, some spots, you know, all those things, and ninety percent eighty to ninety percent depending on which study you read,
is caused by UV exposure. So if you don't want to be perceived by yourself or someone else as aging because of that sunscreen, I know.
Our listeners, what's the answer.
It is always the answer, and it's never too late to start. Do I wish I had a time machine to go back and tell late twenty, early thirty or oddly that just covering a face and leaving her chest out isn't going to work. But yeah, I mean, you can spend all the money you want on every single treatment, every single serum product or whatever, but if you're not wearing diligent sunscreen, you know, and or sun protection. You know, a lot of people don't love the feeling of sunscreen.
I don't know how to reapply. There's hats, there's gloves, there's lots of options, there's just being sensible. Don't spend two hundred alls on a serum if you're not wearing sunscreen.
Everything good day. It's just throwing your money right down the sink. Yeah.
So obviously, and we're going to talk about treatment, treatments and what they call tweakments later. But there are things that target obviously skin that skin tone and I guess makeup wise, that's obvious. It's that's why it is important, right. But as you say, don't go too thick, because that doesn't that's not the answer like that, Yeah, unless you
like that. Yeah, if you're going to put your money, you said before that you would rather save your money on the makeup and put it in the skin care correct now, if you're not skincare literate, and there'll be lots of listeners to this who are not. What is the serum? And I don't necessarily mean the brand, yeah, but I mean the thing that does, the thing that you that's worth you getting, because it can be so overwhelming.
As you said at the beginning, you're like, they say a four step process and the ten step process and this and that and.
Tell us what matters, Holly, Well, they're not just one. Wouldn't that be lovely? We could all shut up shop and everyone would go broke. It's not one size fits all. That's why there is such a ginormous, overwhelming, confusing industry that continues to evolve and confuse us all. So it kind of depends on the concern you want to treat, your skin type, whether or not you care, and even
your budget. And I can recommend some brands generally, but I can run through, maybe like the three or four main ingredients slash things that they do because what you might want to target is not what I want to target, or might not work on your skin because some skins don't like some things and some do.
So.
Vitamin a is the umbrella term for your ret nulls, your retinoids, and that's the single most studied active ingredient in skincare. There's a billion papers about it.
And when people say because if you're again, if you're not, literally if people say actives, this is what they mean. It's it's the serums and the potions that they're not just like an ice moisturizer that feel good. Yes, they're actually in there like getting shipped done.
They're evoking change in the skin somehow, like they're kind of going in instead of giving a hug, they're giving direction. They're like do this, whereas some other ingredients just hug and say this, I'm comforting you.
You feel good?
Yes, So your vitamin a is retinolds, retinoids. It's kind of an all rounder. It will do It stimulates colligens, so it can help fade some acne depending on the severity, you know, breakouts, also fine lines and wrinkles and uneven tones.
So it's a really good or rounder.
And we use that at night and we always wear su sprein in the morning because we do anyway.
And you know, as you'll hear some women get to an age and go I went to the doctor and ask them for retinal right.
Yeah, they've asked for a prescription form of vitamin A. The name I cannot say on this podcast. But you can get a script from your GP or your dermatologists that you then use at home that's stronger. Then there's stuff you're going to get at your price, Sline, Chemistruyre House, Sephora Mecca, David Jones Meyer.
But when you if you're not doing that, you can there's a very wide.
Range, huge wide range of you know, we call it over the counter, which I guess in drug terms means you normally have to ask a pharmacist, but in terms of beauty and skincare, it means you.
Can just go into a shop and buy it.
I don't do the prescription vitamin A stuff because it you can't really use much else you have.
To build up to it. It's a lot, but a lot of women do. Yeah, it's a big deal. A lot of women do.
I couldn't chop and change and use all the products that I do if I did that. And I think there's a lot of elegant formulas that you can just get at the pharmacy. Yeah, so I'm a big fan of vitamin A. Another one is vitamin C. So this one, yeah, me too.
I use vitamin C every morning.
Basically it protects against the photoaging stuff we talked about earlier. So imagine if your sun screen is one of you, you know, a best brand, and then vitamin C comes along and they hold hands and go, yay, let's fight this battie together. So you put your vitamin C on in the morning before, you know, than your moisturize in this unscreen. That's an antioxidant. It's going to help protect for the future, but also help kind of undo a
bit of the stuff before. Not every skin or every person likes vitamin C. Not good for sensitive Yeah, it is a very very mild form of exfoliation because it's an acid. Its other more gentle friend is vitamin B or nicinamite, which kind of does a bit of everything too. So that'll help fade your hyperpigmentation. It can else also help the appearance of pores. My pores are getting bigger. I don't think nicinimite is helping, but you know, studies
have shown it can. It can also kind of soothe inflammation. And reduce redness. So it's kind of like if vitamin C. Do you love my analogies I'm just coming out with.
It's like, I like the idea of the things that give you a hug and then the things that are in there like yelly, get shit done.
Yeah, that's a good way to think about it.
So see, it's more of a yellow bee is more of a hugger, but a quite a cheap And then one more I want to explain because it's the most common question I get, is harlaronic acid.
Yes, And I was going to ask this because I know that this isn't true for everybody, but for me, as I've a as I've gotten older, my skin's gotten dryer and moisture, moisture. Moisture is my main concern.
But because harlaric acid has the word acid in it, everyone thinks it's very active. It's not an active and that it's going to exfoliate, and it's not. It's hydrating, So it's names kind of really confusing us. And it's a it's essentially just going to lock in all the moisture so you can put it on in a serum step and then you know other things. It's called a humectan, So basically it kind of stops the environment from drawing the moisture or your body from drawing the moisture out,
and it helps hold it in. So it's really good for supporting the skin barrier, hydration, plumping, all that.
Sort of stuff. But it's not about well, it's not acids are bad.
It's not.
You can't really overdo hyaluronic acid. No, it's a hugger.
Yeah, it's a hugger.
It's not hard. I love it.
Yeah, And then we could get further into peptides and all that sort of stuff.
I think for now, that's a very good explanation.
If I was new to skincare or you know, I wanted to just start more of these kind of beyond just sunscreen because I don't know how many times I'm going to say sunscreen, but a lot of sunscreen and moisturizer.
I would use for me.
A Vitamin C in the morning and Vitamin eight night, or if I was sensitive, I'd use a Vitamin B in.
The morning and then some sort of vitamin at night. Maybe that's good.
That's what I do. I feel like I should got to pickick coming up. After the break, Lee breaks down which beauty treatments are worth it and the ones she's allowed to recommend, and why there are some the people just can't talk about. If I have been using just like a basic moisturizer from the chemist for years, which lots and lots and lots of women do, and they look bloody great, don't they. What might a good basic one look like for a fortyish woman.
Yeah, well, look, you don't have to change if it's not broke, you know, I told her and New Beauty. Last year, I traveled and I accidentally, well, I took this sample moisture is not used at my face, and my face my skin was never better on that trip, And when I got home, I realized it was a body lotion that had a tiny bit of chemical expollian in it. So, look, whatever works for you. Don't feel the pressure to change or add or spend more money. But if you do want to get you know, a
pretty simple routine. I would do some sort of cleansing or removing of makeup pollution, and that's onscreen.
We talked about.
Optional is to treat, so that's usually your serum that does one of those things we talked about before, hydrate and then protect with your sunscreen, like it's that simple.
Some days I do more than that.
Oftentimes I do cleanse and some screen because I'm running around no one's seeing me, or I'm with my son, or I'm too tired.
So even if you have.
These things at home, you don't have to do everything every single day and know the police aren't going to come if you're sleep in your makeup and you don't.
Do all of the things.
You can't undo all your good work in one night or one day. But a diligence skincare routine over time is probably the best man.
Yeah, now, I know you're going to explain to me why how you can and can't talk about these things right that I'm going to ask you about next. Which are things that you would go to a beautician or and what is it called an esthetician let's just.
Say professional professional, like to like a medi spa type vibe.
And that can also seem really confusing a lot of women who are not necessarily in skincare. They might get a facial when they go on holiday, for example, right, or like someone's got them a voucher, and in my experience, those kind of facials feel lovely. They're big hugs.
They're big, they're big hugs.
But what you learn as you get older and you and you're or maybe your eyes just open to all the stuff that's out there, is a lot of people are going to salons for not hugs.
Different their skin to be shouted out in very various ways shout.
So I'm going to throw some terms out and then you're going to tell me why you can and can't talk about what and what's what? But the kind of things that I get offered when I go to a salon, laser, microdermabrasion, needling, IPL I want you to tell me as honestly as you can. Have you tried them all, what you think are worth it, what you think are not.
Gosh, this is so complex, and I can see why everyone's confused. I mean I'm even confused sometimes, and I luckily know the resources to look it up. So nothing, like I said before, nothing is going to replace a good, solid, diligent at home routine unless you are very wealthy and very famous and can get a facial every three to four weeks, which would be lovely. I still wouldn't. I can, I could get it for free if I wanted. I
don't care enough and I don't have the time. And also I've gone back to liking the hug facial the deep facial massage.
I don't want it. I don't want something that hurts anymore.
But there's two reasons why this is such a confusing and hard topic to talk about and therefore hard for women to find information, and therefore the whole industry feels it in secrecy. And you think all your friends know the secrets that you don't, and what are they getting and why do they look so good? And why doesn't anyone talk about this? And now I feel like shit? So basically, I mean it also depends in your bubble.
I am in a very beauty bubble in that you know, talking about anti wrinkle or fillers or whatever is very normal. But I have friends that aren't in Sydney. They might be rural or their teachers and doctors and no maybe not.
Got other things going on.
But then they're like, well people are doing what what? And I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, there is no right or wrong. But basically Australia has very strict laws. The Therapeutic Goods Administration which is the TGA prohibits some sort of some forms of advertising. That's why you might have seen a lot of content creators get really upset about the fact that we can't now personally recommend sunscreen because it falls into the drug category.
So you're actually not allowed on your social media platforms to be this is the sunscreen I use and I love it.
Allowed to know?
Are you allowed to go? I go to this salon and I get this, this and this done.
See it depends on what that is. But with the sunscreen thing, I can say this sunscreen is called this, it is SBA fifty plus, it's tinted. But I can't say I have oily skin and I find it really great because it's not shiny and my makeup goes, you know, blah blah blah.
However, other people can.
You know, there's eighty five thousand women in the New Beauty Facebook group and they can share that information with each other because that's not seen as advertising. So I do think the TGA has really good intentions, particularly you know, I have a niece who's nineteen and another one who's sixteen, and I don't want them looking in a world of social media where there's before and after is everywhere of everything, and they think that that's normal and what they need
to do. But so ultimately I think it's good, but it's then really tricky to find information or do your own research if you want to have one of these things done.
No, I think you explained it really well before. When you're like, it makes you go, why won't people just tell me? And part of it is because they actually can't.
Part of it is because they actually can't.
And so, you know, you might hear or see something all over social media or your friends, and then you go seeing one of these experts and we'll talk about how to find a good one in a moment, but then they recommend something else. You well, I've never heard of that. You don't even know what you're talking about. And it's because that other thing can't be advertised or
talked about. So, for example, we just talked about harlor on a acid on your face in the serum form, which can be talked about everywhere, but when it's used as an ingredient in an injectible, that injectible can then not be spoken about because injected harlor on a acid is part of the schedule for drugs. But then there's other things. Something I'm going to admit to having later. The salmon sperm thing, which we'll get to, is not class as a schedule for drugs, so I can tell
everyone about that. So it's incredibly confusing. And actually the Therapeutic Goods Administration website parts that I look at are written for media and or clinics, but it's great for the regular person to have a look and understand whereby why hasn't someone ever suggested this? And you know, clinics can't even ask you on their online form, you know you here to talk about X, Y and Z, because that's considered advertising because you're prompting.
Them, right, So so question get around this little bit, I know. So before we get onto injections, which we will in a minute. Yeah, some of those things that I mentioned before, Yes, laser micro invasion, needing IPL. Now I've had IPL which I went to a clinic near me for a facial like hug facial hug. I asked them yes, directly about it, and so she's like, yep, she's and they do both ye and she did. So
I have had three treatments of that. Great and what happens in that and obviously is the zap you with lasers. That's what they're doing.
Intense pulse light is not a laser, no, But like further the layperson, yes, and you might have heard of IPL for hair removal and also laser hair removal, but lasers can also be for skin rejuvenation, as so can IPL. But yes, basically you're probably trying to clear up some red maybe some capillaries and some tone sun.
Spots and redness around my nose and that kind of stuff, and it kind of hurts. Yeah, it kind of hurts, and afterwards you look kind of scary. Who knows whether it works or not, but I think you look beautiful.
Thank you.
But like to me, that was something new and different. It's expensive things, so that's why it becomes hard for you to say, well, was it worth it? Like a probably can't say whether or not you think it's worth it, but also.
You can say, yeah, did it make you feel better enough?
I think it definitely yes, And I think it did like one of them because back to what we said earlier on about it's in my head that an even skin tone is preferable, and I was noticing that my skin tone was much less even, and I, you know, I don't know. It's one of those things where there's some people say there's no point to any of this unless you're actually just gonna do the injector and stuff. There's only so much you can do, And I'm like,
playing around the edges. Can you say whether you think these things are worth it?
I think they're all worth it.
If you're doing it for the right reasons, if you have the money, if you ultimately it's going to make you happy. But your happiness doesn't depend on it, you know, I think. I think the place you went to then suggested micro needling or RF microedal, So.
Then that's the next suggestion. They said, why don't we do micro needling next? And I'm like, that sounds expensive and it is and it is Is that worth doing well.
For me to recommend to you.
I would have done either or, But also I don't know where your comfort levels lie with invasiveness. So IPL is like a zapp, whereas micro needling is breaking the skin. It's a teeny tiny needle that they use all over your face in various ways that pierces the skin. Microscoping creates a micro wound. So that your skin goes help. Oh my gosh, collagen quick everyone to the surface, fix it and then it kind of fixes the micro wound.
But that is piercing of the skin, and I you know, it depends on every single person and woman as to where their line is. But oftentimes people don't want to have anti wrinkle or filler because it's piercing the skin and using needles, and so it's an interesting thing to recommend, oftentimes even offline to friends because they're like, oh, I would never do that, Oh what have you done this? And I'm like, well, yeah, but like why would you do that part? You know?
Where is your marriage? I know?
And you know what I've We've talked about this often, but I haven't yet got anti wrinkle injections. But I don't feel like ethically they're wrong or anything for me. I'm more like, I worry about the slippery slope. Yeah, and that's amazing. I've already started on the slippery slope with mine.
But it's you can always get off the slope, That's true. It is not a tattoo.
None of this is a tattoo, unless it's a tatoo, which I've done to my lips, which I'll tell you about in a minute. But none of it is really permanent unless you're having cosmetic surgery, you know, on operation. But I think what I would do if I was confused and curious and obviously none of this needs doing, you know, go back to your moisturize when sunscreen, like we talked about before.
But I would go to a reputable place.
I would ask friends and family, ask in community groups where you can, because there's a lot of research you can't do on social media and online, and go to them and say, hey, this concerns me the capillaries around my nose or you know, the laxity under my chin. Don't say everyone's getting pico laser or laser genesis or fractional laser or HIFU or.
M face or god all these things.
Let them suggest something, and then if they're the type of person that goes, hang on, oh yes, let's do X, Y and Z and the whole outphabet, I would go, thank you, goodbye and find somewhere else because they think, you know, taking your insecurities about your looks too. A professional should be handled with care and they shouldn't make them worse, and don't I would always have a consult
walk away, think about, not have a treatment on the spot. Particularly, you know with these more hardcore things, some of them contain downtime. You know, your your face will be red and peeling, and you know it's so varied. But I would do my research before I do anything to my face like that, and not unfortunately, because these things are so expensive, don't always go for the cheapest because you know a lot.
Of that true. I mean we've talked before just before, when we touched on it. When it comes to anti wrinkle injections and fillers, you can now because now they are so common and widely available, you can there's a massive price differential. There will be somebody who will share a vile with you and it will be oh god, please that cheaper than chips, or your hairdresser can do it, or your dentists can do it. Can you give us any advice about how to choose if you decide to.
Yeah, So there's you know, two main brands, and they are sold to the doctor or nurse at a unit price, and then it's up to them what they charge on top of that. And you can't compare apples for apples because these two different brands, you use different amounts of units. What you're paying for on top of that cost price is usually the expertise of the injector and or the rent in the suburb they're set up in, or their marketing budget or whatever that might be. So again, there's
no hard and fast for all. I just wouldn't go for one of those flash in the pandeals that you sometimes see on a website that's at one of those kind of burn and churtin places. If you've got, you know, open and honest friends that have had these things, ask them and.
If this is someone who think looks great, yeah, because I think also a lot of women are. They think if you don't know much about it, you think, oh, if I get injections, I'm going to suddenly look like one of the scary ladies. We used to put pictures off with arrows in in magazines back in my time. Totally, yeah, and we all know that now there's a whole world of variety there. Yeah, but less is less, less is.
More, Yeah, So what I would do if it's your first time and you're curious, and again and you can walk away at any time before they've started, make sure that they've given you a thorough price breakdown before. I hear a lot of friends going oh, I went in and they showed me, and they started, and then I got to pay when I was blown, Oh my god. I had felt sick about how much it would cost, and I was like, you should have asked straight up.
But again, people feel vulnerable and they maybe haven't been through the process and they're like, when are they going to tell me the cost?
A minute it's over.
But a good practitioner, whether they're a nurse or a doctor or wherever you're getting it done, will hold them heror and say, you know, how do you feel about this area? Or you say I don't like my elevens? They're the bit between there or whatever it may be, and they say, I suggest this and this and this, and I would start with this. Generally, if it's your first time, you should go back for a check two weeks later and say hey, I really liked it, or you didn't, it's not.
Enough or whatever.
But yes, if you're at a good reputable place, they will always start, you know, low a quantity hopefully equals lower cost, and then it's optional. If you go back ever again, it will not destroy your muscles to the point where you're will look older when it wears off. It will just gradually wear off, and you will be back to what we call natural aging as you were before. It's not going to make anything drastically worse. It's not
a train you can't get off off. You can get off at any stop you want.
I like that. There's so much more to my conversation with Lee coming up next. She shares very transparently what she has and hasn't done to her face. And yes, we finally talk about seven sperm. Okay, so you can't tell us what you would recommend, but can you tell us the things you've tried.
I've tried pretty much everything. I mean, I've not had plastic surgery like fate, like a face lift.
It's funny. Forty three and I now have four skins on my eyelids.
I never had these before. I've got four skins. And there's a surgery that can be done for that, a plastic surgery, and I booked in for a consultation, and as with any good surgeon, that if you're having some form of plastic surgery, you have.
To have a referral from your GP. Is that an eye lift, yes, bleff.
And the referral from the GP is not to say Lee can't see therefore she needs to have this done. It's to make sure that you're in good mental health and that you don't have, you know, any sort of mental health issues that may be causing you to want this surgery.
And then I went to get the referrals.
I can't be bothered, Like I wasn't going to go for the consort, and then I had to get the referral, and then did I want the surgery? And I just thought it was the natural course of Maybe that's what I'll do because now I wanted to have my island circumcised.
But right now I can't be bothered. These new foreskins are sticking with me.
Will I change that in a few years maybe, but that would be something quite drastic for me.
I've tried most things.
I mean, I first was off at anti rinkle at twenty seven when I was at Cosmo, and I went and had it because yay, it was free and yay everyone was doing it and I earned no money and had no money. And then I look at some photos from my early thirties and my god, I mean maybe it was a look at the time, but I also think I looked older or definitely weird.
That's kind of fun. Like everything, things go in and out of fashion. Yeah, so the big, shiny, very smooth was a big thing for a while, but now it feels like people are a bit more. I want some movement. I will smoothed this, but have that.
I mean, there's definitely subsets, and there's no right wrong. Whatever makes you feel great. But I also think now at my mid forties, I don't care as much. And also I think it was maybe making me look ageless, but not in a good way, in a like could be sixty, could be thirty, And I don't care as much. But I've had lots of things things I can talk about. A couple of years ago, I got my lips tattooed on my lip color, which is called lip blushing.
Is that right now?
That? Yeah?
And how long does that last?
So I had it done three years ago. You meant to have a top up six weeks later, but I flew to Queensland to a woman I'd followed on social media for a long time, and I couldn't be bothered flying up six weeks later. I liked her work, but I didn't really look that much into the process. So I was on the Gold Coast for a holiday and I had my toddler with me at the time, and my husband and I said, I've got to got a
quick meeting. I'll meet you at dinner. And my meeting was to get my lips and I didn't take into account the swelling. So I turned up to dinner. I was so incredibly swollen.
And how did your husband say? He said, how is your meeting?
And I was like, I got my lipsat And it's like, you know how everyone calls it getting collagen in your lips, like we used to call that in the eighties.
I was like, no, No, I didn't get lip filler.
It's they're just swollen. And I did document and there's a whole New Bidy episode about it. But this is three years later. No top up, and it's just because my lips very much blended into my skin.
I didn't have much of lick pigment. So I just wanted my lips are better. Am I do a top up? Yes?
Am I going to get it done? No, can't be bothered. It still looks good though, Yeah, it's fine. I mean it's pretty patchy if you're a cup close. And another thing I've had, which I can talk about it, which blows my mind is what's called redurant and you might see this everywhere at the moment or aka salmon sperm injections.
Salmon sperm, Yeah, what's that?
It's not real salmon sperm. It's a protein amino acid enzyme thinking that's cultivated from Like, you're not injecting sam and semen into your face. In Australia, it's classed as a regulated medical device but not a Grade four drugs, so therefore we can talk about it. What does it do? So I had it to under my eyes. People are having it all over their face. Some people are having it in the hands. It's basically just you don't need it.
No one needs it. I paid for price.
It arobably needs any of this.
But if I am a chronic eye rubber every morning I love to rub.
My insomniac, well, it's on the rack, Yes it is.
And that's why I could never have lush accent as anymore because I love rubbing my eyes to the point where it really hurts. And I said that once on new beauty and then an optometrist message means that that's really bad, and I was like, I'm sure it's bad for my eyes, but my skin under my eyes was
incredibly creepy. Still, it's you have numbing cream and then they do little, little little injections of this substance and then you have little welts for a few days, and then it goes away and it just kind of strengthens the barrier. It's like a big, big, big hard you're putting inside. But a lot of people prefer to layer a hug on topically.
I get that.
I think a lot of people's barrier and rightly so is injecting things. Having said that, I do think the future of beauty in the next five to ten years is injectible or ingestible, mostly only because our skin is such a clever organ It is here to hold everything in and keep everything out and be like, don't come here and make us sick or make us whatever. So what we apply topically can work to a degree, but anything we ingest or inject is going straight in there.
So really, when people say, and I know, as we've discussed what you can and can't say, but when people say there's only so much you can do with a cream. That's what they mean.
That's exactly right, And that's because your skin is like, hey, i'm hearing the shouting. I'll take it to the next guy in the line, but the leader's right down the back. That like when you can't you get there.
And when you say ingestible, you mean so for example, collagen gummies and I have a big jar of them and I always forget to take them. Is that worth doing?
Yeah?
Can you say?
I can say yeah.
So I'm a big fan of collagen supplement. I was on and off for a long time and then I felt very old all of a sudden, and I thought, well, that's in my kitchen, and I buy it and it takes no time. So studies are still ongoing, but very promising. If you asked media or researchers five years ago, they were saying, oh, it's all a load of whatever. But I've seen many doctors and dietitians because essentially it's something you ingest it's part of your diet.
Do a backflip.
And unfortunately with things like this, because not unfortunately, but because it's so low on the study list of things we should be studying, you know, cures for others.
Yeah, sure, like that's curing diseases.
Yes, studies done by the companies themselves need to be funded by them for someone to pay for it, which I think is fine, but they're still all verified and completely legit, and so ingesting collagen definitely does help not just your skin, hair and nails, but your joints. You know, there's a lot of other things because your collagen declines rapidly as you age.
You don't have to do it.
I do it.
I have one Sasha in my water every morning, along with some.
Sort of electrolyte things because apparently I'm lowing that and.
Off I go.
It's no extra effort.
And I hate it in a way because now I have a short bob and I'm one hundred percent gray. I have to cover my grays at home every day day.
It's growing faster.
Yes, my hair grows so fast, and my nails grow too fast, and I spoke about I cut them two days ago, not getting my nails done. But it's good for my skin. And the only reason I'm so diligent now is because I was like, oh, that's all a lot of shit.
I don't have time.
And when I stopped, I was like, oh, okay, we was doing something interesting.
So you've done a control on that.
Yes.
One of the things that we women worry about, apart from the skin, you know, wrinkles, blah blah blah, is we get droopy right now? I'm very self conscious about my softening chin line.
Your four skins on your eye lids.
Yes, my four skins on my eyelids, all of those things. Is there stuff you can do about like the turkey neck and stuff that isn't a full on facelift? Is the stuff that works for.
Yes, that's not a facelift, but that involves a clinic and money usually. I mean, there's not a huge amount you can do at home if that's what you're asking.
Sleeping people do.
To be honest, Yeah, that you will see a lot of especially coming out of you know, the k Beauty and JBD Kreen and beauty trends. There's a lot of like neck lifting masks that fit around your your ears. There's definitely professional options that you can have that I'm not going to involve surgery, but you can't really do it at home. Facial firm, facial massage, a guacha can help feels really nice. Is just generally good for blood flow and oxygen to the skin, so it can just
help you glow as well. But if you're asking if there's a quick fix to reverse gravity by ten years, gravity is always going to be stronger than a cream unfortunately, So no.
And facelifts, right, Suddenly, I hear the term facelift around in a way that I don't think, maybe this is my age, but I hear that are women in their forties really getting face lift? Yes, but you're seeing them on social media, like people quite proudly showing off there.
That's the interesting thing about social media too, is that it's global, so there are a lot of countries that can and do advertise their whereas in terms of surgery, so you'll see a lot out of career. Turkey's very popular. Yes, I mean I can't vouch for all those people, but yes,
people are getting facelifts or half facelifts. But you and I thinking of the sort of celebrity that went away and then came out and looked like they were permanently stuck in a wind tunnel, you know, from the eighties. These surgeries are absolutely a surgery there. Even though they're elective, they're an operation and they carry great risk and everyone should consider that obviously, But they're very subtle. There's very
little downtime. You probably might think that someone has had, you know, some of these lasers or anti wrinkle that may have had a facelift or a mini facelift or half facelift, because it's so subtle these days. That's not to say it's not serious. What I consider one not ask me in ten years.
But no, I don't know.
I don't know it literally like it feels like Nicholas Cage and face off to me, even though the process is nothing like that. I just think I'm of the age where it was such a basically.
A big cut in the hooks your face background.
Yes, and it's really not like that anymore.
But if someone is graduating to that, there's many, many, many, many, many steps prior. But if that's something you want to do, go for it. But I you know, there's plenty of things that I have the opportunity to try, or could afford to try, that I would try before doing that.
Do I know you probably can't answer this fully, but you know, we all compare ourselves to the beautiful, whether they're celebrities or just women we see around or on social media who do seem to have a lot of high maintenance stuff going on. If you had to ballpark it, how much money does it cost to have that level of upkeep?
Oh my god, I mean the old less question, yes, but.
I mean between so if you were going for your regular and injections and regular resurfacing in the good yeah, like what just.
And diet and exercise? Are we talking about having a time?
Like?
Well, look, I think you know these aaaa A list celebrities are having these people come to their house constantly. You know, they would have teeny tiny tweaks probably every single week. They would have full body led you know those masks that everyone's saying, shall I spend three hundred or six hundred dollars on? Which I do now diligently, And I think do you rate those right?
Yep?
But I never used to until I found a good one that's only three minutes. I mean, there's plenty of good ones, but the ones that wanted me to lay down for ten minutes, ain't nobody got time for that. This one I can strap on my face and you know, vacuum what scare the neighbors, scare my son for three minutes, and so I can fit that in. But you know they're particularly leading up to award season or whatever. You know,
full body led sometimes full body lasers. It could be and is you know, part of their job, but it could be a full time job and you would need hundreds and thousands of dollars. But fuck that, Yeah, exactly, how boring. I hate laying steel and I hate having to heal from something.
Now you might have answered this with the salmon sperm. Yeah, what's the wildest beauty treatment you've ever tried?
Probably that, I mean I have had the one where you they take out your blood and put it in a facial Yes, spin it. I won't say the real name here, spin it. Then they take the platelets out. They don't rub the red bit on your face. They take the platelets out, which are like a yellowy white color, and then rub that into the micro needling wounds because it's your own, like getting your own goodness out and putting it back in.
Did you look like a newborn baby?
I was at the time.
I think I was in my early thirties, so I think I thought I was old. And I thought I loved it, but like now I feel and no, I don't feel old. I think I look old, but I'm sure in ten years, like a god forty three, you looked phenomenal.
So yeah, it was good.
It was pretty crazy at the time. It was even before Kim Kardashian did that whole photo, which that's just the needling. That's just the blood coming off out the needling. That's not the spinning and the putting the stuff back in, because if you go deep with rf macrow needling, you.
Will have quite a lot of bleeding. That's probably about as crazy as it get.
I can't remember, and because none of it's in the recent past, because I don't really bother.
You not mess around with it so much to.
Tase no, I don't have the time.
I think, oh, yeah, I'm going to do that soon, and then a whole year is gone. Not to say I won't, but I also just think as you get older, you kind of don't care as m I don't know, maybe because I I don't know.
But also maybe you're you know, you're wise, that's the thing, and you know what your priorities are. And before I close out, actually one more thing I was going to ask you is there is there such a thing as too late to start things like so you know, for example that I haven't done anti winkleingtections, but I don't rule any thing out.
Yeah, because I have to look at my face a lot these so worry that if you don't do it soon, then you'll have to beat that face lift lady.
Yeah.
No, it's never too late for anything.
And like I said, you know, unless it's a permanent surgery, you can get off a train at any time. Please, like start. You're great with your s on screen, but you can start anything now.
It's funny because I like my battle with myself when we've talked about this lots of times, is I'm like, I should be self accepting like you know, but you are. I think, you know what I mean, Like I should be like, this is life, right, this is what happens to us. And I like to look nice.
Holly, you have the most glorious skin of any fifty three year old I've ever known.
You look, but you do.
I think that unfortunately a lot of women just see the floors or the changes, not a floor, but the changing. But I think if anyone met you and saw how radiant your skin was, and I'm sure when they do, they think, shit, i'd love to have her skin.
Oh you're that's lovely. That brings me to ask you the question, do you feel beautiful?
Ah?
I think sometimes.
I mean I think, yes, I do feel beautiful, but I don't always think I look beautiful.
I mean, I've got short hair.
Now. I'm love your short hair.
I cut it.
You used to. When I first met Lee, she had long hair and she liked her long hair. Your long hair was a big.
It was purity blanket, a lot like you. And then a couple of years ago I cut it really short and I loved it. And then because my husband's a red blooded Greek who just would like we do wear leather all the time, he said, oh, grow it long. You know, because I used to think once I cut my hair, I'm old and I've given up. And I loved it, and then I thought, okay, so I started growing it. It got to about here and I was like, no, I love it. I feel beautiful with short hair, and
it doesn't mean that I'm old and given up. But someone said to me on social media the other day, you know, they said, how do you manage to get more beautiful with age? And that was a lovely compliment, but I was like, what, like, oh yeah, like we're as women were told that we get less beautiful with age, and if we think of women like a banana or some ham in the fridge, then yeah, it gets worse with age. But if we think of us like you know,
beautiful buildings or mantic furniture or whatever. But I've just never really thought that my most beauty was behind me. So that really made me think because I just I think, you know, maybe as a society and maybe I've contributed to this with my career. But I hope that Kelly and I both being you know, she's late thirties on your beauty, she's a mom. I'm forty three on new beauty, and I'm a mom in that we're not twenty two
year old TikTok obsessed sort of. You know, we're aging people that it's not just for the youth, like you can, everyone can be beautiful and hopefully feel beautiful, and it's not like, oh shit, I've only just started skincare now and it's too late at any age.
And also you don't need the skin care it feel beautiful.
I love that answer. Thank you, Lee, Thank you for having us. It's been so different. Podcast helpful. Everybody is going to love you as they already do. Thank God for Lee Campbell. Now you too have her on speed dial. Metaphorically, you have her on speed dial when you're wondering whether or not you should do that thing. Let the beautician talk you into that next step where you should go to get your needles, whether you should do them or not.
Hopefully now you feel a little bit better, just like I always do after I talk to my wonderful friendly. If you want to listen to more smart conversations about what happens to our faces we grow up, as I like to call it, scroll back in your feed to my conversation with Ali Daddo, which was called what have
You Done to your Face? And it's very much about She's unlikely obviously she's not a beauty expert, but she's a woman whose value was very much held in her beauty because she was one of the most popular and famous models Generation X can remember. And she talks about the challenges of aging when your self worth is so index to your appearance and what she has and hasn't done. She takes a very different tach. It's really interesting, So go and listen to that one. And of course thank
you for being here with me on MID. If you love this show, rate review, share, tell other people about it, we couldn't be happier that you're here with us. A massive thanks to our MID team. The excit secutive producer is Nama Brown, the senior producer is Grace Rouvray, the producer is Charlie Blackman, and we've also had audio production from Jacob Round. I'll see you next week.