You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. So I wrote a dickhead list. It's inspired by today's guest who wrote her own and put it in a book. Imagine a blank page, Feel the pen twitching in your hand, scribble the words and being a dickhead when I and have at it, it's freeing. Do you want to hear mine? Okay, I'm being a dickhead when I don't listen, just wait to talk. Stare in the mirror until all my problems are about
my jewls. Forget that my children aren't me, Refuse to look at my bank balance, get too comfy on my high horse. Open the clean dishwasher, take out a fork, close the clean dishwasher. I know I'm being a dickhead when I over commit and do a half fast job. Mentally blame other people for my half fast job, indulge in the poor me wallowing that over committing inevitably leads to all that. To say, I'm being a dickhead when I don't just grow a pair and say no, thank you.
I can't write now, I'm being a dickhead when I forget that my mood affects others. Forget my keep cup, Forget I have choices, Forget how long it takes to do absolutely everything. Really try to bake and blame the recipe for the inevitable, inedible tin of shit.
Refresh for likes.
Judge books by their covers, and when I say books, I mean people. And when I say covers, I mean appearances. And when I say judge, I mean judge. I'm being a dickhead when I don't admit I was wrong. Don't pack snacks, don't call my mom, don't let the truth get in the way of an easy opinion, don't have time to read, don't check the weather. I never check the weather. I am being a dickhead when I am cruelest to those closest. Have two wines and start the lecture.
Allow the fact that shampoo and conditioner are no longer in a big enough font on the bottles, and I allow it to ruin my entire morning. Start confusing other people's lives, choices, achievements with a commentary on my own. Start carrying salt sachets in my purse by a size too small. Get way too much enjoyment from listing all my faults. Hello, my name is Holly Wainwright and I am mid midlife, mid family mid writing a dickhead list.
It's not a list of dickheads, although, let's face it, by this stage of life we've all met a few of those. They are a fact of life. As a wise woman once said, anyway you look, there'll be a dickhead. Better get used to it.
Oh, we're used to it.
No, this list is for you. It's a list of warning signs, if you like red flags in online speak, that signal to us that we're getting a bit.
Too far from who we are.
It's when you go against your experience and towards your bullshit. Today's guest, Casey Chambers, has built a career on tuning into her gut and my not pretty ener.
Is my heart too proory? Captain and I are no one tend feels oh wanna be?
She calls it her little Foghorn, the foghorn who told her that her first album should be called The Captain, despite the suits thinking it was a terrible idea. The Captain went on to go platinum three times. It was the Foghorn who pushed Casey to ask ed Sheeran if he might like to sing with her, even though she
was pretty convinced he might be, you know, busy. He did the foghorn that told her to seek help for an eating disorder that brought her to her knees, to leave a marriage that was no longer working, to parent against the grain, and to step off the glamorous but arduous international touring circuit to get back to what she loved, traveling around Australia in a van with her family, singing songs to people who wanted to hear them. That refusal to get caught up in what we're told we should
want rather than what we actually do. That's Casey's special source. Not pretty enough, who gives a fuck? Try to look younger? Why though sing songs about divorce with her ex husband sounds like a bloody brilliant idea still tour with her dad doing merchant, her mum doing babysitting, even though her parents' romantic relationship ended ages ago. Absolutely, this conversation is an
absolute gem, because Casey is an absolute gem. It's dripping with hard won mid lessons, good advice, and stories of times everything went tits up, many of them recounted in Casey's book called You Guessed It.
Just don't be a dickhead. And there are two bits.
In particular that are the kind of sparkly conversations duels I wrote down immediately and I think about them all the time. I'll tell you what they are at the end and see if they're the same as yours. So welcome to me and Casey Chambers, the most undickheady rock star you're ever going to meet. Casey, you wrote a book on the notes app on your phone? Do you know that makes you very generation Z.
Well, it's the only thing that makes me that actually, and the reason for that is that I am really bad at anything technical and I don't even own a laptop. Wow, So what I'm doing this interview on right now is not even my laptop. So I had to borrow this so that we could do this interview because I don't know how to use a laptop.
Well, so you explain about what you just told me in the sort of intro to the book, and you also say in that you explore your insecurities about publishing a book at all. Right, you say you went through this process of going. You know, I'm not a writer. I can't write it. Maybe I shouldn't put it out there. Maybe it's too vulnerable. I wanted to ask you about confidence, because although I think that when you get to grown up age, as I like to call it, in some ways, we're much more confident.
We've survived a lot of stuff, but also a.
Lot of midwomen suffer from a lot of anxiety and lack of confidence too, and we think, oh, who am I to say whatever? You obviously overcame that to get this book out.
What have you learned.
About how to shut up that insecure voice in your head?
Yeah? Oh, do you know what. I don't think I shut her up. I think I'm just a little bit more aware of why she pops in, so I don't I don't even know that we should shut her up.
That's interesting.
I'm not I think it's okay to feel insecure about stuff. I think it's what we do with that that is probably the most important part. Because she popped in for a reason. You know, she popped in because I'm doing something I've never done before. And you know what, she actually had a lot of really legitimate reasons as to why I shouldn't go any further, you know, because it like, I'm not in all and you know, if anyone reads this book, they will know exactly what I'm talking about
in the first few paragraphs. I'm not an author at all.
I don't know, but you.
Know I don't. I don't write in the way that you would you would read mot It's just conversational. It's the way that I would talk to you right now. And I'm going to try and have a few less swear words in this interview than what are in the book.
You can have a couple. It's okay, we're all grown ups. It's okay.
Try but that's really interesting. Tell me about that, because you know, I think that often we're told well, like fake it till you make it, tell you're in a critic to shut up, tell them to take a back seat. But sometimes they have got valid things to say.
Right totally. And I think you know, she was coming in to go, yeah, like you you don't know what you're doing. This is something new that's for you that you've never done before. But then I guess I think about it a little bit more and go, well, does that mean that I shouldn't put it out like, just because it's not going to be the great book in the world, it's not going to change the world. It's not going to be for everybody. It's a very acquired taste,
you know. It's like, just because it's not all of those things that you feel insecure about, does that mean you don't get the chance to share it? Of course I can, you know, and the people that will like it will gravitate towards it, And even if that's only my mom's then that's okay. Although she actually thinks there's too much swearing in it, but aside from that, she kind of likes it.
Of course she does.
I I mean, obviously I'm going to disagree with you and say I think there's loads of wisdom in this book that will be relevant to everybody. But we'll get to all that. But it's interesting because there are a couple of other times in the book where you do talk about how you had to push yourself to be
more confident than you felt. You know, like there's a story in there about when you really wanted to work with ad Sharon, for example, and you were like too nervous to ask because you're like, of course he's going to say no.
Yeah, So sometimes we do.
Just have to suck up that, like who do I think I am? Stuff and jump.
Yeah, I definitely, I definitely went through that when I was asking Ed to sing on this song. And I don't know him well or and he we're not really good friends or anything, but we have some mutual friends and we were label mates there for a bit and stuff. So I had a way of asking him, you know, through a really good friend of mine. And I did go through that thing where I went, oh my god,
I can't ask Ed Sheeran. He's the biggest artist in the world, and you know, that's just ridiculous that I would think that someone like him would sing on a song. And then there's the other end of the scale where you want to be so confident and you go like, you tell yourself, no, don't be insecure. You should be
able to ask anyone anything or whatever. And at the end of the day, that's probably a bit of my ego talking or whatever, but I think a lot of it is about bringing in the actual realistic situation rather than listening to these two extreme voices, yeah, where one is designed just to give you self doubt, you know, and to bring in all these things and to try and convince you to not do anything, because staying in
your comfort zone is obviously much more comfortable. And then the other one is to protect you this ego that has been developed to protect you from ever getting hurt or whatever, and then it turns into this massive ego where you think you're way better than you are, which I've been there as well. But then at the end of the day, there's just this realistic situation in the middle where I can ask him, he can say no, and yeah, my pride might be hurt a bit, but
what's the big deal about that? Anyway, you put yourself out there, and I think it's just trying to be even just with the book, of putting the book out there, just going this is just about me sharing my stories. Not everyone has to like it, not everyone has to connect to it. I think once I started convincing myself that the book is really similar to music, that I put myself out there in music, and I don't really care most of the time. Now, don't get me wrong,
I hope that people like my music. I'm not sitting back going on. I don't give a shoot, you know whatever. Of course, I do. I want people to come to my shows, and it's really nice when people like my music and connect to it. Of course I want that, but it's not the only reason. Just getting praise and compliments and like having a number one song or album or whatever. That's not why I'm doing it. It's more like, if they're the bonuses that happen along the way, then
that's great. It just turned into one.
But it's interesting because, well, first of all, I want to say that what you just said is so good about asking for what you want, well, what you'd love or whatever, and not being afraid of the no. Because not everybody who's listened to this obviously is asking Ed Sharon to sing on a song with.
Them, but they are.
Now, oh yeah, they will.
Now the man's inboxes flowing as we're talking about. But asking for anything that you want or what you need is really hard, and for women, I think in particular sometimes because it's always like, oh, do I sound myself? Do I sound unreasonable? So I think that's a really good lesson. But to the book and the album, it's such a creative idea, right because you've got these chapters that are sort of like little lessons and they're almost
got affirmations through them, which is so interesting. But then there's also through it like QR codes where you can scan and listen to the new album, which is why the book and the album are coming out at once. It's very clever. It made me think because obviously reading this, music has been in your blood and your life since you were born and since and you have been performing since you were nine, And I was thinking that this is such an original, interesting way of getting your music
out there. You must have seen so much change in the industry and how to get your music to the people who want to hear it. Is that exhausting or is it an interesting creative challenge? And do you still love that challenge?
I don't. It's neither. It's not exhausting, and I don't think I look at it like a challenge, although if I break it down, I probably do get excited about coming up with new ways and stuff like that. In saying that it's funny when you just said, then it's a really clever way to do it. That QR code thing literally came about. I thought of it a week before we signed off on the book. Really, do you know the only reason it came about just so the
listener knows you can read a little story. So some of the stories inspired songs, and some of the songs inspired stories in the book, right, So from a creative
point of view, it's always been connected. But yeah, I just thought, oh, I wonder if that's a possibility to do that, because on the first little bit the note of Intention in the book, I had just signed off on the last little bit of where that would sit and the photos that come after it and stuff like that, and I got to the end of that chapter reading it, and I went, oh, my god, I just wish people could hear A New Day Has Come, because that's the first track on my album, and that song is really
closely related to that note of Intention, just by accident, you know. I wrote the song years ago, in the middle of COVID actually, and then I was just like, I really want people to hear this right now, Like I want them to hear almost like the soundtrack of what they just read and be in that with me. That's what I hear.
Love that to the harves Lot of the Dawn.
As because.
The Good Days.
I wanted to ask some of the books lessons affirmations.
What would you call them?
There's sort of statements that prop up through the book.
Well I call them lessons, I guess, But yeah, I think of them like these little echoes in my in my head, you know that that just pop in at times in my life to go like just little reminders. And I really think it is that inner voice you know that I probably know anyway. I mean in real life, I call her my inner foghorn.
You're in a foghorn. I love it.
You know. Sometimes she's just like really full on about about trying to get my attention and that although I still ignore herself times, but I yeah, just this inner voice that I have that I believe we all have, you know that. I think there's more answers in there than what we give them credit for, you know. And I think she's been there a long time. And then I dull her down at times in my life and I let the outer noise drown her out a lot.
You know, she's she's just really oh sorry, I'll get okay. It's just this really it's like she's this little girl that's just way more wise than I am and not just like and often I think I think that I know better than her because I've learned all this stuff and you know, and I don't know. Sometimes I try to think of her like like, you know, this guide that really does know my path better than people that
are telling me what my path should be. And I think that's the thing in the industry when when you know, or any industry, probably I can really only talk from my.
Own well and life and the world and all the things it's always telling you to be.
Yeah, we're just I'm more than ever. We're constantly just told who we should be and what we should look like, and you know, what we should sound like, and what we should say and what we should believe. Even more, you know, like probably that that one's the hardest one is we decide that this is what we believe.
And and.
The thing is we can believe whatever we want any day of the week. We can take it all out and go, I don't believe that anymore. I'm going to believe this now because that resonates with this inner voice. And yeah, but she's she's pretty important.
Do you think that it makes you emotional thinking about the inner foghorn because of what sometimes it costs us when we don't listen to her.
Yeah, yeah, I do because I tune her out a lot, you know, and that's that's like the basically the ultimate being a dickhead for me, Yeah, is just basically tuning her out and not listening to her because, you know, I think it's it's funny because whenever people say, oh, what would you go back and tell your younger self? Whenever anyone asks me that, now now that you know what, you know, what would you go back and tell your
younger self? And I'm like, well, I'd probably just stay here and listen to my younger self more because I think because I had this free spirited lifestyle, and I think this is really this is where my life early on was quite different than most people's. You know, I grew up in the outback with my family for the first ten years of my life, living this free spirited lifestyle where it is nothing like what a lot of
people are getting nowadays. It's not even like what my children are getting, and they're getting a bit of free spirited lifestyle with traveling and touring with me, but it's still not like that. I mean, this is before obviously social media and all of this world, but even a step away from that. I wasn't even getting the things, all the influences and the judgment and that sort of thing that any other kid was getting of my age
as well. We were just living this free spirited lifestyle with these kind of hippie parents that just let us just be whoever we wanted to be. And my parents are still like it. You know, there's still I'm so so grateful of this that there was no be on your best behavior and say the right things in front of these people. Whenever I tell myself that I have to be a certain way or none of that is from what I've been taught as a child. All of that is learnt from being a part of society, and
that's you. We're all told, particularly women are told this is how we're supposed to be.
I'll be back with more of Casey Chambers in a moment. She's going to tell me about co parenting with her two x's, but until then, here's.
A little break.
One of the lessons that I loved and I want to talk to about in regards to kind of aging and the women listening to this. When I grow up, I want to be a kid again. You said, where he says one of your your sort of lessons in the book, which is kind of what you're just saying about wanting to get back to that free spirit. I was also thinking because in the book, when you described those early days and your dad was earning a living
hunting feral foxes and things. You're traveling, you write a little list of rules that you had as a kid, and they were like, don't.
Touch the rifles.
Oh.
I know, it was not like normal, it's not normal and inverted commers. But I wonder if that free spirit in this must have made it really a big shock when you were suddenly like you go to school at different points and you're like, whoa sare's a lot like so much.
It was really particularly going to high school for me, because that's when we really stopped, you know, having that nomadic sort of lifestyle, free spirited lifestyle. I went to high school and I was like, oh my god, what the hell is this? And not only like structure, having structure in my life where you had to be at a class at a certain time or whatever I mean I did. I was homeschooled around a campfire. We did like an hour of schooling in the morning was about
it and then we move on and whatever. So then high school was quite a shock for me.
Yeah, and that is where a lot of people start learning about, Oh, I've got to make myself smaller, I've got to fit in this box. I've got to please those people. High school is where a lot of us first get all.
That input, isn't it just And I have a daughter that's that's going through this right now. She is in her first year of high school at the moment, you know, and you know, she's a real little free spirit as well, and it's just one of those things that I'm just so aware of that I don't want her to dull that free spirit because of all the judgment now. And she's not on social media or anything. All of her
friends are. She's the only girl in her group that is not on social media or which she's handling very well so far, which I'm loving. And she said to me, I even asked her about it the other day, and I'm like, how are you feeling about that? You know, because we talk about it, and I talk to her about, you know, things of why she's not on it and why I prefer it if she's not at this point, you know, and so far, it's it's been quite easy because she's kind of like, I don't really want to.
She's like, every time my friends are on social media, they don't talk to me in person anymore, Like they'll go and see on their phone and then no one talks to me, and I'm not, She's like, and so she kind of sees it as a negative thing right now. So that's an easy one to get over the line. But I know the conversations are going to get harder, and you know that that's gonna Yeah, I'll be a lot harder to it.
It is tricky because it's just so much input. But I wanted when you were when I grew up. I want to be a kid again. And then I was also listening to your song with Paul Kelly when We're Old and Madden. In that video you're like riding around on bikes like being crazy. Do you think that the real anti ageing? You know, like we're all told it talked about anti aging all the time, and I want to read out some of your amazing words about that soon.
But do you think the real anti aging secret is to hold on to that playfulness, that curiosity, that don't give a fuck attitude. Do you think that's really what we should be focusing on when we talk about aging.
So much, because you know, like most I mean, maybe it's changing a little bit these days, but I think of myself in the first ten years of my life, I could not have cared less what I look like, you know, Like I know that. I know that it's a little different now in with girls and they're and they're you know, caring about that stuff a lot earlier than what they did when I was a kid. But
it is it's that full circle. And it's so funny, isn't it, Because then as we get older, a lot of us end up going, oh, what was I so worried about? Why am I spending so much of my energy worrying about how many wrinkles I have on my face? You know? So it's coming all the way back to how we used to think about ourselves as children, because we weren't taught yet to care about that or to
identify as that, you know. And so again I want to go back and be I want the free spirit I had when I was a kid, and I think when I tune into her as a forty eight year old woman now that is when I'm the happiest in my life.
Yeah, I need to read you this bit about this thing because this is from your book and it's It really touched me because it's something I'm really trying to do and lots of women I know are trying to do. And you wrote this is so lovely. This but you wrote, We're all getting older every single day, every single minute. It's inevitable. It's a shared similarity that we all have, whether we like it or not. We're taught to fight it. We're told that it's a negative thing and that we
should resist it at all costs. We are trained to keep the battle against it alive for as long as we possibly can. We condition to believe that youth equals beauty and aging represents losing that beauty. This is the bit I love. But what if they are wrong? What if they're so wrong it's actually the exact opposite. What if our true beauty lies within our aging experience. What if I simply choose not to believe what I'm told anymore?
What if I choose to see getting older as the most beautiful and empowering thing that could ever happen to me. Sometimes when I look in the mirror. Now, if I look through the eyes of my heart instead of the eyes of society, I don't just see lines. I just love that looking at your face through your lens and not society's lens. And what if they are wrong?
I just sorry. I've never heard anyone read my book back to me.
I love those words. Casey really touched me. It actually made me. When I was prepping for this and I was reading that bit, it actually made me teary, Like you, why does it affect us so much?
This stuff?
It's so interesting, the aging stuff, Like.
Look, I think I think that is at the very least. I hope that there is someone out there that reads that and goes, oh yeah, hang on, maybe we can question what we're being told because it's not I'm not even saying I'm not saying everybody's wrong, don't listen to society, don't go on social media. I'm not saying any of that. I'm just saying for me, when I think about it,
it doesn't resonate. It actually doesn't resonate with my inner voice, like my inner Folkhorn is actually saying, nah, we actually don't want to fight aging. So and I buy into it. Trust me. I'm not saying I don't like. I sit there and I'll sit on social media sometimes and I'll go, oh, my god, she looks so beautiful and I wish I was a couple of size as smaller so I could look like that in that dress. And I will say, oh, I should buy that skincare because you know, her face
looks flawless, and so I do. I do, and I even buy it sometimes. Do I get me wrong. I'm not saying, of course we all do. I do. I am affected by that stuff, and sometimes, you know, I get caught up in it. But if I if I ask myself the question, do I believe it? And I just don't. You know, I really don't because I look at my mom and I see everything. I see all the lines on her face, and it reminds me of
all of the incredible travels. My Mum's traveled so much over the world, and she's been through a divorce that absolutely stated her. And she's been through, you know, losing close friends, and she's been through so much and it all shows on her face. But it shows as beauty, it shows as experience, and when I look at her, I don't see an old woman. I don't see an old you know, woman that's lost her beauty. I see everything she's been through and it is beautiful. It's so
beautiful to look at. And I hope that my daughter sees that in my face. I don't want her to look into my face and see botox or you know, I don't want her to see me fighting against something that's so natural and if I just choose to see it another way can be so so beautiful. That's what I want my daughter to see in my face.
That's so beautiful. Because when you just said that, and he said, i'd wanted to look in my face and see the first thing I thought was fear, like fear of aging, Like I don't want to look at my face and see her going like I'm not enough. I'm not enough. I'm not But you wrote a song for your mum about that, didn't you. I'm not gonna haven't got the lyrics in front of me. It's gonna annoy me that I don't. But about what the lines in her face reflected back?
Your place? Anything?
What was it?
Do you know what's funny? The song isn't about that. It's a song that I wrote for her for Mother's Day. It's called mother It's from years ago. It's from like my third or fourth album, and it's not about that. It was never meant to be any statement or I wasn't trying to tell her, you know, anything or whatever. It was just it was a present for Mother's Day. And but one of the lines in the song says, you light a room with the lines on your face, right,
And I didn't think anything of it. I just put it in the song and it sounded beautiful when I sang it. And she told me, this is really funny though, because this was after I had finished the book and she was reading about the bit about me talking about how I think that lines on my face are beautiful
and that it shows your experience. And she said to me, you know, when you wrote that song for me, it changed the way I look at myself in the mirror because you saw it as such a beautiful thing and you put it into your song, and it made me change the way that I saw my own face. And she said, I think of that every time I look in the mirror. So I went back and added that little story into my book because I just thought, not only is it a beautiful thing that it helped her
to be able to see herself differently. It also shows the power of what one thing that you say or sing, but what one thing you say to another human can actually change the way they think about themselves.
I'll be back with more from Casey Chambers in a moment, including the pearl of wisdom that I scribbled down the minute it came out of her mouth, that story about your mum, and this line you've written in the book about when you try and look through the eyes of your heart. It also tells you something about a perspective shift.
But it's interesting what you were just saying about everybody shouting at each other, because in your list of definitions of being a dickhead, you obviously you talk quite a bit in the book in different places, and then it is in your list about the kind of difference. Being strong doesn't make you an asshole, but being kind doesn't
have to mean abandoning yourself. Like there's a bit of a through line here about speaking up for you yourself, but not bullying with it, not being an arsehole about it, and that I think that that is a line that.
People are struggling with a lot at the moment.
I struggle with it. That's why I had to put it in because I do struggle with it, and you know, particularly the one about being kind and abandoning yourself, and I actually think of it every time I you know, see people put on social media and that be kind that is, you know, the bottom line. Everyone has to be kind to everybody, and that that can be above everything, you know. And on one hand, I think there are kind ways to deliver things and to say things and
to get your point across and all of that. But there's a real fine line between that and abandoning yourself. And it's another thing that I do try and teach my daughter that yeah, you can use your manners and you know, be kind and be you know, helpful, supportive and nice to people and blah blah blah. But if it means that you're abandoning who you are, that's not being kind anymore. You know that it's not about that anymore.
It doesn't become about that anymore. It's about listening to that in a voice and going, well, if I stand up for myself here, am I going to offend somebody? You know? So that's just it is a fine line and it's one that I struggle with, honestly I do.
I think we all do. But to the back to the strength and the lessons that show on our face and then all bits of us. Another song, ain't no little girl Mine, no.
Nice crab.
You've said that song with like the glue for a while that held you together almost And it's such a powerful like roar of a song almost, But it made me think about the most of us, and including you, when we get to this phase of our life. We've been through some storms, right, a lot of storms. You have been very open about talking about having an eating
disorder and coming back from that. You've dealt with relationship breakdowns, You've dealt with by the sounds in your book, sort of perfectionism, and you know, keeping everything moving all the time. You know, you've had to learn a lot of lessons about all that. Do you feel now like all those storms have made you this powerful like I ain't no little girl person? Do you feel like that every day? Oh?
Ah, No, I don't feel like her every day? Definitely not.
It might be good to have a song to sing to make you feel like her.
I do think she's there every day. She's absolutely in me every day. I just don't tune into her every day, so I think I am her. I just don't think I vibe like her day.
You know, sometimes though, at the stage in our life, these things that we've been through and survive can come back and bart us on the ass too, right, Like hormones are going all over the place, and sometimes something pops up and you're like, I thought we've dealt with that.
Have you had that experience?
Yeah, And I think we changed too, And I love that. I love that we change. But then sometimes it makes the answer different that you end up with and you didn't learn the way to deal with it back then. That might have worked for them might not work now with who you are now, and it might not work in ten years time. If you go through the same thing, you might need to deal with it in a different way.
So I think I had to go through a marriage breakdown to figure out how to be a better person in a relationship now, because you know, I wasn't quite the person that I convinced myself that I was in my marriage, you know, and I've had to really face that. So even though it feels uncomfortable, I think I embrace the like the discomfort now in situations because I know that I'm going to learn something for it from it. And it doesn't always make you feel better at the time.
I get that, but at least it's a little reminder in there to go, Okay, you're gonna learn something from this along the way, and at least you can hang on to that just a little bit and maybe not let it swallow you up.
Do you have to be quite vigilant to keep on top of your mental and physical health and stuff, well, especially when you're busy and you're touring and all those things. Have you learned lessons of how to stop yourself being swallowed up that maybe you didn't have when you were younger.
I have conversations with myself all day every day. I mean, that sounds like it's a pretty boring life to have, doesn't it. No, you know, it's more just little little things. So I don't well, I guess I guess I do have some now that you're saying that. You know, I try to really eat really healthily and things like that, and I hate exercise. Oh my god, it's just like it'll it'll just be the thing.
Do I have to do? I have to just the worst.
So I'm a fairly like active person, but not when it comes to exercise, Like I'm just like, like, I don't sit still. I'm not a sitting still person at all.
You're a meditator, though, aren't you, Didn't I think in your book everyone I interview, Casey is telling me I've got to meditate, and I'm like.
Do I do? I really? I find sex still really hard to know.
And you know what you don't have to do. It might not be your thing, and that's okay, you know that's what I am. Just like I started realizing that the more I did that. So I start every day with meditation. It's the first thing I do before I do anything.
And has that Has that been a really good change for you? Like have you noticed a difference to your day if you do that?
But also I will so if I'm feeling a bit like my day is getting away from me, and you know that feeling, and I try to recognize this when it comes in where you feel like you're being dragged around on the day, like by everything else. So you know your thoughts are dragging you around, your feelings at
what somebody else did. So when I start feeling that dragged feeling, and often I reckon, this is the time where you go, well, I don't have time to meditate because I've got so much on, because I'm being dragged around. I remind myself, then that is the time you should just and you know what, I don't even know, Like I know, I feel a little bit like meditation was like a bit of a dirty word or something like like that. I used to cringe when people would say
that word. Actually, so in my mind and I do, like I say, I start every day with meditation, but throughout the day, sometimes I will meditate, but sometimes I do just a little grounding for ten minutes or something like so it's just to get my breath back, remind myself that nothing's dragging me around. These things aren't happening to me. You know, stuff is just happening around, and I'm still here, and I'm still this centered person. I'm just choosing not to be there. That's very good, right.
I wanted to ask you about family in a few different ways in your book when you write about parenting. I love how you say I'm a good mom except when I'm not, because I'm like, yeah, me too. But I think that we're getting better at being kinder to ourselves about family and admitting that we're all human. What's your biggest sort of struggle in that in the being a good mom today box?
You know what, I actually don't struggle with it heaps.
Now.
I just go all right, you're just gonna make some bad mistakes and just own them when you do and try not to do it again next time. And I don't really beat myself up over it at all much anymore. But I did used to, and I think I think it was more See my kids. So I've got a twenty two year old who lives in Perth now and so you know, he don't need me no morepa grown up.
So Talon is my eldest son. Then I've got a seventeen year old boy who is just finishing up year eleven at the moment, so he's about to go into year twelve. And then Poet is in high school, first year of high school, and she's twelve.
You've got to range, and you've been doing it for a while.
Yeah, I think I'm going out of now being in all high school. I actually feel a bit of a change from that, and I reckon that some of that is because in primary school you're so there's that thing of expectation of what mothers are supposed to be like in primary school and being so involved in every little thing and making sure that your kid is the cleanest kid going to school, which mine never was, you know,
and all of those things. And I think you notice them more in primary school because you're more active, Like the parent has more of an active role in primary school. And I'm noticing that I'm letting God it a lot more because the kids are expected now to be doing a lot more stuff on their own. That and this is part of your independence, and the teachers even expect the kids to have more of a responsibility themselves. So I'm like, great, I don't have to do as much.
I'm feeling the same way. My son is finishing primary school this year, my youngest, and I'm just like, oh wow, I've got all the way through primary school. That no more primary school, mom. Not that I was having very good at it, but what I wanted to ask you was watching them grow and your oldest obviously proper adult. Now, is that a beautiful pride? Is there a bit of nostalgia and sadness in it. How have you found the transition of mothering like children into adults?
Love it? Love every second of it. It's the best. I just so when I say love every second of it, I mean like my approach to to watching it happen, not every second is good second. And it drives me fucking insane. So don't you know, like I'm not saying it's all great at all. You know, they're teenagers, so you know they do my head in sometimes, of course, you know. And and I was saying to someone the other day who's got one of my friends has got younger kids, and they were like, oh, I can't wait
till you know your kids age. And I'm like, well it is. It is easier in some ways, but you just trade one worry for another, now, you know, so I do. There's still that because my middle child and my second son, Alo just got his peace the other day, so only a few weeks ago, and so he so now, well, my life used to be that I was just a taxi service for him because he loves surfing and skating and going out with his friends and all that, and it was just me dropping him everywhere. So that was
my whole parenting life was that. Now I just sit at home worrying if he made it to where he wanted to go, you know, so it's just trading one worry for another.
I wanted to ask you about co parenting because obviously, as you said, you've been doing it for a long time, different ways. There'll be people listening to this who are co parenting. Have you got advice for them about how to make it work?
Oh? Advice? I don't know about it. Just to take yourself out of it, you know. Is that you know, like when I was first going through breakups with both of my kids' fathers. You know, my eldest son is from a previous relationship, and then my other two are from my marriage. But if you mix your co parenting with your breakup, that is just destined to be shit,
you know. Like so I think once my ex and I let the breakup be one thing over there and kept the co parent It's almost like we would have conversations about the kids where we'd be really friendly to each other and we'd be like, oh, yeah, cool, you know you, and then we'd talk about our stuff and we'd be like right, I mean'd get this real latitude or whatever. But at the very least. It's not like
that anymore. Obviously we're years down the track now, but at the time, you know, at least we could separate them and you know, and that was really important. But I'm also extremely grateful that I have exes that were willing to do that. Not everyone has that. I also have a really amazing partner myself, and my ex has the most beautiful partner that if I could hand pick, you know, who my ex would end up with and my kids would have as a step parent, it would
absolutely be just her, and she's the best. So I'm really lucky in that. But I don't know. I mean, you know, I have a song on my new album that is a duet with my ex husband that is called the Divorce Song. His name, Shane Nicholson.
Because you've played a lot of music together. That was a big part of your marriage and your relationship.
We made records together, and we actually kind of say that that those records probably ended up being the demise of our marriage. Our second our last album we made together was called reck and Ruin, and then we got divorced not long after that, and we obviously went through our hard times and all of that. But then, you know, within these last few years, we've we've realized that we actually do divorce way better than we do marriage, and
that's really where we shine. That's very was beautiful, and we wrote a song together called the Divorce Song basically about how we do that. But we are very supportive partners that are just amazing. So I'm very grateful, very grateful,
because I know it's not all that easy. But I do think some of it is a bit more of a choice than what we convince ourselves that it is, because I went through that too, where you know, particularly after my divorce, I think I convinced myself that I was being as stand up and reasonable and adult as any person could be. And I look back now and I was a dickhead. No, I really was. I really was.
But we just it's hard to be honest with ourselves when we're going through something hard and something painful.
I think a lot of people will resonate with that.
Just on family. The last thing, Your parents come very vividly through this book, and I was wondering, I told you before we started that recently I interviewed your friends Vicker and Linda Bull, and one of the things that they talked about beautifully, like realizing their moving into the matriarch role in their families, like as they age and the parents are aging, you know, and finding ways and traditions to do that differently perhaps, but realizing that you're
become the elders. You've got a chapter about embracing change and respecting traditions and stuff, But how are you finding that shift. You've talked about your parents and that they're still as free spirited as ever, but how is watching them age and supporting them through it?
You know, it's I guess it's a bit different for me because I still work with my parents as well, so I actually think we have a bit of a different dynamic anyway. I mean at different times, Like my mom is really involved in helping out with my kids and things like that, you know, so she takes on this real grandmother role that she absolutely loves and my kids love, and it helps me out obviously, and it's
a beautiful relationship to watch. And then my dad plays in my band as well, and he plays guitar in my band. He has for basically my whole career really, and so when we're out on the road, which is a lot of the time. We often travel together too, as in, you know, my partner and my kids and I will take our caravan and that, and then my dad and his family that he will take you know, his camper and blah blah. We travel a lot and go out into our back places and often meet up.
And he can still do all that, like health wise and everything. He can still do all that.
Oh totally.
Yeah, he's smashing it. He's like all over the play he travels more than me because when we come home off the road of him playing in my band, he then goes out and does his own gigs because he's got his own career as well. So he's smashing it. And then sometimes he might fly to a gig with the rest of my band or something. But I do we do it all in a caravan now and I
love that. But we also when we're out on the road, I think my dad and I have a bit more of a bandmates kind of dynamic between us, and it's not so much about I've got my dad with me on the road and I've got to look after him or anything like that.
That's good. That's good.
And also if they're still so vivid and healthy, like that's it's such a gift.
Yeah. And my mom sells all the merchandise for the tours and that that's her business. She does all of that. And my mom and dad are like really beautiful friends and have been for most of their divorce.
There was a good model, very good and I yeah, they're a very good model of what you were just talking about.
I probably should have said that at the start when you first started talking about co parenting. I learned how to co parent from my parents, you know, going through a divorce, and they were the same. They went through their hard times, of course, you know when you first get divorced in that, but then you know, it gets to a point where my parents showed me that a marriage breakdown doesn't have to be a family breakdown, and that was really important for me, you know, to see
that in them and to see it actually work. So it wasn't just something people said on paper, like it wasn't just something a therapist said to you. I saw it and lived it every day and I continue to live it with my parents, and so I had no reason to think that it wouldn't work with my ex'es, you know.
So I want to go back to the book and talk about your definition of being a dickhead.
List just couldn't I couldn't tell you.
I could keep going all day, and then I want to hear all the songs and then anyway, you've got this list. I'm going to show it to you on our video here. You've got this list because at the top I've written this has inspired me to start my own list. But it's my definition of being a dickhead. And this very much looks like it was written in
notes app and I appreciate that. Now we've talked about a lot of the things in this already, we've talked about the idea what you feel like you're being a dickhead when you and then these are all the different things. Think that being strong means being an asshole? Lose sight of my own boundaries. I actually wanted to ask you. Boundaries as a word that gets thrown around a lot, and I do think it's something that women and maybe
midwomen really struggle with. Have you is that something that you've had to learn and get better at or is that something that you think was in you from your free spirited you?
No, well, a bit of both. I think I had natural boundaries musically, so going into the music industry and not giving up my musical like what I felt like was me musically. I didn't really get talked into much early on, like when they would say somebody might say, oh, well, we want to remix this or re record this and make it sound all, you know, commercial and blah blah blah.
I had boundaries. I didn't really buy into that at all, and I was quite happy to go, Nah, sorry, that doesn't really you know.
Because you also have on this list that you're being a dickhead when you don't admit that you're wrong, which I also really like, and don't ask questions. I think that's so true, like because you know, there's you maintaining your like your value system of I'm not being a dickhead. But I'm sure you've had to spot a few dickheads in the music industry over the years.
And that's always a sign.
For me that someone's a dickhead is when they cannot admit that that wrong.
Oh yeah, yeah, and I get it. No one wants to it's a bit uncomfortable or whatever, but I actually reckon. One of the best lessons I've learned is to be able to tell my children that I messed up and I was wrong about that, because I just like it's almost like I used to say, oh, well, I can't admit to them that I'm wrong because that will make them lose faith in me. And it's kind of the opposite.
You're teaching them that you can't admit that you're wrong when you are and if you know that you're wrong, then just say you're wrong, you know. And now I do it all the time. I'll just take the kids aside or something. I'll say, hey, I was wrong about that this morning. I shouldn't have reacted like that. I shouldn't have told you guys to do that. That was my own shit going on, and I'm sorry about that, and that it's okay to do that. And I do
that heaps actually now. But I used to struggle with that because I kind of thought that that look like a weakness then to my children. But I really think it's the opposite that like teaching them to be able to just admit when you do shit wrong. That's a great thing, you know, because we're all going to get it wrong at times, and I think just owning that is really important.
I think that's great parenting advice. You also have some things on here that are quite specific to you, Like you're a dickhead when you don't listen to Paul Kelly, although maybe we all are when we're not listening to Paul Kelly. And you're a dickhead when you cook with gluten free flower and expect it to turn out like normal flowers.
Oh my god. But to close up, God, I put that one in there that is so true, and I still do it like I still I'll buy like a different brand and then I'll just go, no, this one's going to be different, and then everything will crumble apart. I'm not even gluten free. I don't even know what I'm bothering.
The last thing I wanted to just ask you, because you've got, as I say, little lessons through the book live your own dreams, not someone else's. I think is a very powerful thing all the way through our lives. Because even now, as we talked about at the beginning, we've got a lot of shoulds. I should be like this, why and I like that? Do you feel like at this phase in your life, as you're releasing this new work and you're releasing this book, are you living your dream.
One hundred percent, like daily, and not even just to do with my album and book coming out, even just the way that I'm living my life, the way that I'm touring, the way that I'm showing up to my children each day, like on little things. Because so, I mean in the book, that chapter is very much about living, you know, because I was I was flying all around the world and doing all these amazing big tours and
big festivals and blah blah blah blah. I was flying everywhere, going into these beautiful airport lounges and living the most convenient, luxurious lifestyle that you could possibly ask for. And I know that a lot of musicians absolutely that would be their dream life. But then I just sat there there in that airport lounge one day and I went, hang on a minute, is this my dream life? I don't think this is setting my soul on fire. I feel like I'm missing out on calling into roadhouses and chatting
to the locals on the way to my gig. I think I want to be able to take my kids to the swimming hole down the road, even if it goes against the flight schedule that we have made. You know, and I want to be able to go and play at the school out at an Aboriginal community and go and do that in between that gig and that gig instead of flying somewhere else or what. And I want to be able to do that. So I changed my whole lifestyle because I was like, what are the things
that fill me up? And to be honest, it's not sitting in an airport lounge and I'm grateful. I'm not saying.
It's okay, It's okay.
Yeah, you know what I mean. I love not being ungrateful. I'm just going this is not my dream. It doesn't set my soul on fire. Sitting around a campfire playing music with my kids while they're playing guitar and I'm cooking in the camp oven. That sets my soul on fire. And so that's what my life is now. So I'm
literally living my dream. But just on the other side of that, I think sometimes where we have this like we have a really clear view of our big dreams, but I also want to fulfill my little dreams throughout a day. And that is mainly of who I show up as every day. So who I show up as when I'm talking to my daughter, and no one is watching, and it's not on Instagram, My friends aren't around. And you know, this happened to me just the other day.
I spoke to my daughter in a way where I was like, I was really cranky at her, and I can't remember what it was, but it was something she hadn't done. I was like, ah, I lost my shit. And then I remembered that she had a friend over right and her friend was there, and her friend would have heard me lose my shit, and I felt really bad. I was like, oh my god, I can't talk to my daughter like that while her friend's over. And then I went, hang on a minute, why the fuck does
that matter? You shouldn't talk to your daughter like that anyway. You know, if you can't do it in front of another person, then you shouldn't be doing it, you know. And look, it was no big deal. I'm sure I didn't scar her for life. Yeah, but talk about it in therapy one day. Fine, Fine, that's gotta.
Give them something to talk about.
But I think that's brilliant. And what you just said about your dream and the other people's dream, like, I've got goosebumps up and down my arm. I just it just resonates so much, and I can't thank you enough for your generosity. I can't thank you enough for writing this book and far out. I can't wait to hear the whole album like I can't.
Oh, thank you so much. This has been just the most soul feeling interview to sit here and talk to you. Well.
When I finished that interview, I was driving straight back down the coast to where I lived, and I put on a Casey Chambers playlist and I leant into her unmistakable, unique, heartfelt songs all the way home, and I was busy with one of the pieces that I wrote down, thinking about that all the way home on the drive, reminding myself that this was my dream, my weird little yellow house by the river, and the veggie garden and the rider's shed and my dog and my kids and my elderly boyfriend.
And it's not.
Necessarily as sparkly a dream, a shiny and fancy dream, as many others, but it was mine and those dreams are none of my business. So that was the first piece of wisdom I wrote down. And if you've let go of all the stuff everyone told you should want, or you're in the process of doing that, you'll know why that bit of the conversation was so.
Powerful for me.
The other bit that I loved Casey's words about aging and how we see our faces and that question what if we're wrong? What if the smooth face of youth isn't beauty? Anyway, I'm not going to prosecute Casey's amazing words anymore, but I bloody love playing with that rebellious idea when I'm staring in the mirror blaming my gels. Casey's book and album, the album that goes with it, it's appropriately called Backbone, are available now and we're putting links in our show notes away you can get them
to support this incredible Australian artist. And if you loved that chat, please scroll back and listen to my conversation with Gina Chick from a few weeks ago. These two women, I think, share a sort of particular spirit that makes me want to be braver and that makes me bounce out of those studios full of energy. And if you love the bit about beauty standards, maybe go and listen to my conversation with Ali Daddo called but what have
you done to your face? It's the last episode of season two and we talk about all that stuff and if you love mid like, follow share, like all the young YouTubers say, it really does make a difference. Enormous thank you to my undickheaded team, my amazing epim A Brown, who had ms that sometimes she doesn't put the shopping trolley back. Ni, that is a dickhead move, but that's okay.
We forgive you. Also our other producer, Charlie Blackman, who says that when she's being a dickhead, she starts talking in a British accent. Well that's good to know, Tarlie. I'll be looking up for that.
Anna.
Amazing audio production is by Tom Lyon, who says that sometimes his short attention span needs that he tunes out and someone will tell him something really profound and he'll just be like, oh yeah, cool, yeah, and that's his dickhead. Tell I promise you none of these people are dickheads. They work so hard on this wonderful show of ours, and we'll be back in your ears next week.