What’s Your Story: Jacki O’Neill

So I sat down with some of them. Now, I’m sharing  their stories with you. In this podcast series,   you’ll hear from them about how they grew up,  the critical choices that shaped their lives,   and their advice to others  looking to carve a similar path. [MUSIC FADES]  In this episode, I’m talking with Jacki  O'Neill, director of the Microsoft Africa  

Research Institute—or MARI, for short—in  Nairobi, Kenya. Jacki’s decadelong career   at Microsoft began at the company’s  India research lab, where she applied   her ethnographic and human-computer interaction  expertise to advancing equity in the country. After the opening of two Microsoft software  engineering centers in Africa, Jacki made the case  

for a research lab on the continent. She now leads  the MARI team in making technology more inclusive,   a role that allows her to pursue her goal  of positive local change with global impact.   Here’s my conversation with Jacki, beginning  with her time growing up in Plymouth, England.

road to get here, but the windy roads are the  most interesting ones. I grew up in Plymouth,   which is a dockyard and naval town in the  southwest of England, so a socially deprived   working-class town. So when I was growing  up, it was a thriving, working-class town,   but of course with those industries, you  know, they didn't, they didn't pass so well   through those years. So, you know, by the time  I was leaving school, it was quite a deprived  

city and still is. I think that it's really  important to be in those type of places, though,   because you get a very rich view of life, and  I left them as soon as I could, [LAUGHS] so ... When you went to university? O’NEILL: Went to, well, I went and I was  a cook for a year in the Lake District,   which is a very beautiful part of  the UK, and then went to university. Where's the Lake District? O’NEILL: It is northwest, and  it's all hills. It's, like,  

Wordsworth Country. It's all hills and  poetry and beautiful houses. And, yeah,   it was a fantastic time working as a cook there.  And then I went to Manchester to do my degree. OK. And what is your degree in? O’NEILL: Ah, so, yes, I had, I did a  social science degree to start with.   I started at the time when you could get  a degree in anything and get any job at   the end of it. But by the time I came  out of my degree, it was a recession.

But did you have, did you have specific  plans while you were studying of what you want, you know, what profession you wanted to go into? O’NEILL: Not really. I didn't. I think  I'd, I think like many young people,   I didn't really know, but I felt that  I would find something interesting when   I came out. And then, you know, I just  worked lots of different jobs. [LAUGHS] What is your favorite college course? O’NEILL: My favorite college  course—in my degree? Gosh,  

that's a good question. It  was all so long ago. [LAUGHS] OK … O’NEILL: My favorite, I guess, yeah, no, I, so,  I did ... my degree was in psychology. I worked,   and then I did my master's in computer science  and then my PhD in human-computer interaction. That's quite a change, right, from  psychology into computer science, then.

O’NEILL: Yes, yes. And I just, you know,  I'd always just wanted to do computing,   but when I was at school, it was ... we had one  computer in the school, and so it was, like,   a computer at home or you don't do computer  science. So, you know, I didn't do it. Right. O’NEILL: So then as computers became  more prominent, more available, you know,   I was working in libraries, and they started  computerizing, and I worked on that project,  

and then that led me to do a master's. And  so I was like, hey, this is the opportunity   to really get into this area, and I loved it. It  was fantastic. And Manchester's computer science   department is one of the top departments, and  I had an amazing ... Carole Goble was my thesis   supervisor. She was absolutely amazing and strong  for women in computing. But at the end of it,   I was like, OK, so I didn't want to  do pure social science and I didn't  

want to do pure computer science. What I  want to do is do human-computer science,   so where you really merge the two. And that's how  I got into HCI, and I think that's where I started   finding my favorite courses. You know, I loved the  research methods. I loved those types of things. And what is your PhD about? O’NEILL: Ooh, it was very boring. [LAUGHTER]   My PhD was in computer-supported  cooperative work [CSCW], and ... OK. Oh, yeah. Very relevant now, right?

O’NEILL: Yeah, very relevant now. And that  was a really exciting time for CSCW, as well,   because there were so many different labs.  There were Sun Systems, there was Xerox,   there was Microsoft—all doing really cool, like,  collaborative technologies. So it seemed like a   brilliant area to go into. But I was looking at,  can we support networking events for businesses?

Wow. Uh-huh … O’NEILL: So it was just at the  time of the first, you know,   things like Webex and things, you know,  the first collaborative seminar-y ... Yeah, so you're way ahead of the  social networks, right, and everything, right? O’NEILL: Yeah, yeah. And there was a whole  conference at that point in time, right? CSCW, I think I remember. Wasn't there ... O’NEILL: Yes, yes, yes. So it was and still is,  I think, a really big field.

O’NEILL: Yes, it's a, it's a, it's really  interesting. And I think one of the things   that's interesting with the foundational models  now is many of the things that people like me,   HCI people, have been wanting to happen—"Oh,  if only we can enable people to interact with   technology like this"—are now suddenly  possible, which is quite exciting.

Yeah, so we'll get to that in a  little bit because I think, you know, as you said the whole field of HCI is now changing with  foundational models and what the interfaces are,   will be. I think it's a really interesting, deep  research question right now. So, so, OK, so you   got your PhD; you're in Manchester. What's the  next step in your career? Where did you go next? O’NEILL: Yeah, I actually got a job before I  finished my PhD. So I took quite a long time  

to do my PhD. I think it was seven years in the  end, partly because I was teaching. When I was   doing—like, lecturing when I was doing my PhD,  and I also had a job as a consultant occasionally,   working with, I think, I worked with the Co-op  Bank. I worked with some usability companies,   and you could, I could make enough  money to live for a term on, like,   two weeks' consultancy because I  didn't have very high costs. [LAUGHS] Right. You lived as a grad student, right?

O’NEILL: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And, actually,  you know, I was living in Manchester. I   was living in a squat, so I wasn't  paying any rent, [LAUGHS] so ... Oh, really? O’NEILL: Yes. So I didn't have very many costs. OK. O’NEILL: Which was very handy. So I didn't  have any real incentive to finish my PhD   until I got a job, you know. When I finished my  master's, I looked at the job market, and with   my computer science master's, the main job was  database manager, [LAUGHS] which didn't appeal.

That sounds now  really interesting. [LAUGHTER] O’NEILL: Yeah. So I, actually, that's why  I ended up doing a PhD, because I was like,   I don't want to go back to work yet. You know,  I've been working for five years before. So, so,   yeah, I just was enjoying doing a PhD and  doing pieces of work here and there. And   then I got a job at Xerox in Cambridge,  and then that's when I got motivated to   finish my PhD because working and doing  a PhD at the same time is not much fun.

Right, right. So you got  your PhD, had your job lined up, and then you're starting at Xerox.  What were you doing in Xerox? O’NEILL: Human-computer interaction.  Yeah, it was a really exciting time.   There was so much going on in the industry.  I was so delighted. It was like my dream job   to be in industry and to maybe create cool  interfaces and, you know, cool collaborative   systems. So ... and then they closed the lab  [LAUGHS] within six months. It wasn't my fault. So quickly?

O’NEILL: Mm-hmm. Wow. And what did you do then? I  mean, this is your first big job, and ... O’NEILL: Yes ... GEHRKE: ... such a quick setback. O’NEILL: They offered me a job in their lab in  France. So I stayed in the UK for a while and   worked half in France, half in the UK,  and then I shifted to France full time. OK. Oh, wow. So do you ...  where in France did you live then? O’NEILL: Grenoble. OK, yeah. In the middle of ... O’NEILL: In the French Alps.

... the French Alps.  Exactly. Beautiful place. O’NEILL: Absolutely ... yes. Yeah.  Skiing, climbing, hiking. So much fun. And, OK, so you're at Xerox PARC  in the French Alps. What's, what's next? O’NEILL: They were opening, Xerox was opening  a research lab in India. And I'd always wanted   to travel. You know, I'd always wanted ... and I  never really had the money or the opportunity to  

travel. So when they said they were opening it, I  just went to my boss and said, hey, I don't know   what you'd want me to do, but if there's any  opportunities for me to do anything to help … Wow. O’NEILL: … the opening of India, I'd love to. And I went out for a month  and then I went out for three months. I mean, both of these sound like  really bold steps to me. First of all, I mean, Grenoble is probably pure French speaking,  

right? And, I don't know, did you have high  school French or you were good ... [LAUGHS] O’NEILL: I had high school French,  yes, and then we drove, we drove   from the UK to Grenoble listening  to "learn French" tapes [LAUGHS] … OK, wow … [LAUGHS] O’NEILL: …in the car. Yeah. Wow. And that was enough  then to get by with a daily ... O’NEILL: Actually, so it was great in France  because they expect you to learn the language,  

so you have French lessons at work. And  then, actually, I did an evening class,   as well, that was paid for by work, a really  intensive one-month, like two hours a night,   every night of the week. And that really  helped. Yeah, it was, it's fantastic. Wow, that's really great. And  then, and then you took the even bigger step to move to India, right. How was that  like, and what was your experience there?

O’NEILL: Yeah, India is just magical. You  know, initially, I just went for one month,   then three months, and it was just—the  people, the culture, the work I was doing,   the research I was doing was like no research ...  you know, I’d spent a lot of time in call centers   around Europe doing studies, ethnographic studies,  and designing technology. Lots of time looking at   photocopiers because I was with Xerox. [LAUGHS]  And then so going to India, suddenly, you know,  

I'm looking at social enterprises. I'm looking  at all sorts of businesses and different ways   of life and different people. And it was just  so rich and so amazing that I was like, OK,   I really want to do this. And that's actually when  I applied to Microsoft because Microsoft had the   Technology for Emerging Markets group there,  which is world-class research in that space. So I was like, OK, if I want to  keep on doing this, then that's what I'm  

going to apply to. And luckily enough, I got  the job, and that's how I joined Microsoft. Wow. So, so, OK, so you're now at  Microsoft in India. That was in Bangalore, right, where our research lab there is? O’NEILL: Mm-hmm. And so what, what were you  working on there for the next few years? O’NEILL: Yeah. So initially, I looked at a few  different things. I joined some existing projects.  

So I was on MEC, which was the educational  platform, looking at whether we could bring the   power of MOOCs [Massive Open Online Courses] to  Indian education to improve the level of education   because they have amazing colleges at the top,  but, actually, the vast majority of students go   to these intermediate colleges, and the teaching  level really varies. And so the idea was, can   you help with blended learning? Can you help the  teachers teach better? That turns out to be really  

challenging. And, actually, the system ended up  being used by the students to teach themselves. Oh, like for independent learning? O’NEILL: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And that  was really, so that was interesting,   doing some studies there. I looked at ... Indrani  [Medhi Thies] had done an amazing project where   they'd built "Facebook for Farmers." So  I did a study of that, which was really,  

really fun. And then I worked in financial  inclusion, one of my big areas. I spent about   five years working with auto-rickshaw drivers  in Bangalore, designing technologies to help   them understand the loans they'd taken out,  which was really, really fun. They're a very   great community to work [with]. You don't get any  nonsense from an auto-rickshaw driver. [LAUGHS] Well, I was just thinking, what was it like to, like, live in India  and just move there and start out there?

O’NEILL: Uh, it was, I mean, it  was fantastic. It's a great place   to live. The people are amazing. The food  is amazing. Moving with Microsoft makes it   very easy because Microsoft takes care of  you when you move so you're not, you know,   some of the stresses that you might have around  the move are taken care of. I had a young family.  

I had a 2-year-old son when we moved out  there and within a year had another one,   which was not 100 percent planned, because you  don't usually move to a new company and then   have a baby. You're like, oh, sorry.  [LAUGHS] But that was all fine. Yeah. And, and, you know, you worked with  all of these different communities in India,

right. How did you connect to the  communities? I mean, these were teachers … O’NEILL: Yeah, you need to, you really need  to go with people so you have to convince some   organization that what you're going to do is going  to be beneficial to them and useful for them. And   then if they're trusted by the community, they  give you access. And that's really great because  

you do have access that you wouldn't otherwise  have. You know, if you're really wanting to build   technologies to support people, you really need to  understand what they care about—what do they want   help with?—and you only get that if you've got a  trusted relationship with them. So we worked with,   there was one organization that worked with  the auto-rickshaw drivers' wives. It was about   empowering women, and we got access to the  drivers initially through that organization.

That's amazing. I mean, you  know, I've visited India many times, but I can only imagine how it is to live there,  actually. So do you have some of the stories   of what is, sort of, most surprising  for you given that you've lived there? O’NEILL: Yeah … what's most surprising?  I think, so one thing is, one thing is  

people want to tell you what they think  you want to hear. So if you're lost,   you need to ask quite a few people for directions  and then make some sort of assessment about   whether the person was just saying "yes, yes,  that way" because he knew the way or "yes,   yes that way" because he just didn't want to  tell you that he didn't know. And so you have to,   sort of, judge. [LAUGHS] So that's  one, like, useful piece of ... So the first few times you  went in the wrong direction? [LAUGHS]

O’NEILL: Yes, exactly. And then you're like,  "But they said ..."; you ask someone else,   and they're like, "No, it's over there." And  then someone ... so that's … the most useful   piece of advice I could give to anyone who's  visiting India, is when you cross the road,   just find someone else who's already  crossing the road and cross with them. Because it's so dangerous  if you go by yourself potentially?

O’NEILL: Yes, yeah. You get used to it quite  quickly, and there's obviously something that   changes in you when you've been there a  while. You know, when you first go there,   all the auto-rickshaw drivers are going to  overcharge you and drive around the block  

twice and all of those things. And I find after  about four to five weeks when you've been there,   they know, like, there must be something  that changes in your attitude because they   actually know that you're there longer term  and you're not going to take any nonsense. So, so do you behave  differently? What's the change there? O’NEILL: I don't know. That's, I've tried to  think about this, but I think, I don't know,  

it must be just an air of confidence or  an air of certainty or something. But,   yeah, it's like something just clicks or changes. That's so interesting. Is it only for the drivers, or is it in other aspects of  your life, as well, where, sort of,   you get treated differently because  you suddenly have become a native? O’NEILL: I think you notice it most  in the drivers because they're the   ones that you're interacting so  much with to get about, you know,  

to get ... you're always getting a tuk-tuk to go  from here to there. And they really do, you know,   if they can make extra money out of you, they  are going to make extra money out of you. They smell it, that you're a tourist. O’NEILL: Yeah, yeah, yes. [LAUGHS] And then so you were in India  and then another opportunity came along. So tell us a little bit about that  opportunity, where you ended up now.

O’NEILL: Yes, yes. So when I heard that the  ADCs were opening—the Africa Development Center,   so our software engineering center in Nairobi  and Lagos—I thought that that was a great time   to pitch for research in Africa for Microsoft.  It seemed like a bit of a hole in our portfolio.   I have family connections to Africa. So,  actually, one of the reasons for joining   Microsoft was partly because I thought there  might be opportunities eventually in Africa  

because we had a great Africa startup  program, for example. So, you know,   but there wasn't any research there. And so when  I heard the ADCs were open, I just put together a,   like, pitch for setting up research in Africa  within the ADCs, and, you know, all sorts of   people really helped me hone that pitch. And then  I flew at the end of February 2020. I flew ... Oh, just right before the pandemic.

O’NEILL: Mm-hmm. I flew to ... I was in Barcelona  for a Future of Work event, and then I flew to   Nairobi and then Lagos to meet the people who  were running the ADCs and to think about where,   which one I would want to set up research in if  such a thing were to happen. And I did that. I   decided that Nairobi was the right one. And  when I went there, Jack Ngare ran the ADC,   and he was so enthusiastic about having  research there. So I did a pitch and got  

some funding just—I think if it had been two  weeks later, I'm not sure. But, you know,   it was just before we knew how bad COVID was  going to be, so I was very lucky with timing. And, I mean, you've made these  amazing moves throughout your career, right. You, sort of, raised your hand for India  when the lab was open; now here in Africa. Why,   and how? I'm just, I mean, so curious because  people make the most unexpected turns in their  

careers from time to time. But it's more like  because, you know, they lose their current job   or they, their manager moves away and they  really think about their career. But you,   like, raise your hand from time to time and  make these really bold and amazing moves. O’NEILL: Yeah, I mean, life's  meant to be exciting, isn't it? OK …

O’NEILL: I think. You know, life's meant to be  exciting. I love living in different places and,   you know, as an ethnographer, as a person  interested in human-computer interaction,   it's, like, those experiences are what help us  innovate better and design things that are, like,   taking another point of view, more creative, I  think. Like, just sparks things in your, in your   head. And, I mean, it's so much fun. Like, I don't  understand why everyone doesn't do it. [LAUGHS]

So it's just really amazing.  So if I think about, you know, India, where you said, right, the experience  for you was that the drivers were   treating you suddenly differently. Did  you have a similar experience in Africa,   or what is one of the or a few of the  defining experiences and stories there? O’NEILL: Yeah, I think ... so the animals are  amazing in Kenya. They've done such an amazing   job at conservation. I imagine that they  would, you would only see, like, these big  

animals in the national parks, but—they're  not everywhere. They're not going to be,   you're not going to find a hippo walking down  the road in Nairobi. But they are all over the   place. So you can go camping in Lake Naivasha,  which is just an hour and a half from Nairobi,   and I was camping with a friend, and the kids  were in their tent, and my friend was in her tent,   and I was just sitting by the fire.  It's about 10 o'clock. I said, yeah,  

I might go to bed in a minute. And then I just  heard this snort, and I get up with my torch,   and I look, and there's a hippo, [LAUGHS]  like, probably less than a meter and a half … Wow … O’NEILL: … away from me. So I carefully went and sat back down by the fire and waited  for a while before I moved. [LAUGHS] So are they dangerous in that  aspect, if you've startled them or so ... ? O’NEILL: Yeah, I think ... they say  that you should never get between a  

hippo and the water. So, luckily, I was  on the other side of the, [LAUGHS] of   the hippo and the water. But they are  big. I mean, they can be very grumpy. And so you should, just, shouldn't startle  them or ... ? I'm just trying to understand what's the recommended behavior. Don't get  between the hippo and the water. O’NEILL: Yes, that's recommended,  and don't, yeah, don't startle them,  

and just, you know, stay very, stay very  calm. So, actually, when you're camping,   if you don't have an electric fence around  the campsite, then you shouldn't come out of   your tent at night. So don't drink too much beer  before you go to bed, [LAUGHTER] because it's the   "zip." When you unzip it, you can really  startle ... If there's any wild animals,   lions, or whatever around, then you can really  scare them. And you don't want to scare a lion.

Yeah, I was thinking, just,  actually, about the lions or so, right. I mean, they could be probably even more  dangerous than the hippos or, or not really? O’NEILL: Hippos are actually more dangerous  than lions. Yeah, lions will generally not   attack you. And apparently, the thing—I haven't  had to try this, I'm glad to say—but the thing   you should do if you encounter a lion is just  look them in the eye, and then they'll go off. Stare them down. O’NEILL: Mm-hmm.

OK. O’NEILL: I hope I never have to try that  because they are quite scary … [LAUGHS] I hope I never have  to do that but good advice … O’NEILL: Yes, yeah, yeah. I think hippos  are more likely to charge at you. Like,   a lion's more likely to go  off in the other direction. And what's the daily life like, you know, living in Nairobi, right? I mean,  is it, I mean, it must be very,   very different from living in both India,  as well as, you know, Great Britain or here.

O’NEILL: Yeah. I mean it is very different. The  traffic's bad but not as crazy as India. Like,   I drive in Kenya. I didn't drive  in India because it was a bit too   scary with the bikes and everything. It's  a really, it's a really nice pace, I think,   in Nairobi. It's a beautiful city. There's  nightlife, and there's cafes and restaurants,   but you've got countryside so close. You  know, compared to Bangalore, it's quite  

a small city. And the weather is amazing,  and the people are really friendly and kind,   and, you know, it's just, it's a very  nice, it's a very nice place to live. That's amazing, and you now are leading the Microsoft  Africa Research Institute there, right? O’NEILL: Yes. What is the focus of the  institute, and what are you studying there? O’NEILL: Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're mainly focused  on foundational models. It won't be a  

surprise to anybody. [LAUGHS] Which actually, you  know, it's worked out very well for us because,   you know, we have a mixed disciplinary team.  We have HCI and AI and ML and data science. And all local? O’NEILL: All local. Yeah. And, yeah, we're  looking at multilingual languages in models. So   we're working with MSR [Microsoft Research] India,  thinking about how can you benchmark these models  

for different languages. And we're thinking all  the way along the scale from your high-resource,   you know, French and German, to your mid-resource  Swahili, Hindi, all the way to your low-resource   languages because, you know, the vast majority of  training data is in English. So we've been working  

a lot. That's nice because we're having, you know,  in a very short amount of time, you know, four or   five months, we're having both scientific impact  with papers but also product impact, working with   the Copilot Language Globalization team as they're  rolling out Copilot in different languages. I see. So the research that  you have will go into, let's say, Word or PowerPoint or so to make it available  in some of the languages from the continent.

O’NEILL: Yes, exactly. Because it's not just about  translation. It's also if you think about RAI,   responsible AI, you know, a lot of that is  language based. And so how do ... you can't   just translate this to words. You have to find  the right list of words in those languages. And   then what about things like tone and stuff?  So that's one area. And then related to that,   it's in a much bigger space of equity, the  models and equity. You know, what's going to  

happen to the digital divide with these models?  In some ways, you could imagine that they may   be flattening it, but in other ways, they could  be increasing it. So we really are trying to map   out how … the different elements of the digital  divide as it plays out in these models. Because   you obviously have your traditional things  like access to devices, access to, you know,   infrastructure, and things like that. But there's  also the data divide. So not only is most of the  

training material in English; it's also mostly  from America and the Global North. So it embodies   very particular world views. And if you think  about data on Africa, data on Africa tends to be   collected by particular organizations. So there's  lots of data on poverty and disease and forced   migration and things like that. Not much data  on, like, the stories, the creativity, wealth,  

innovation. So what does that mean? Even if the  models can speak perfectly, which they can't yet,   but they'll eventually get quite good at,  you know, even smaller languages like Luo,   if that model is just translating English  content into Luo, that's not necessarily what   we want from a model. So there's some really  interesting questions there to be answered. Well, it seems to me like  it's clearly also a question of,

like, getting the right kind of data. So where  do you get the data, and how do you get the data? O’NEILL: Yeah, that's a big question. And it  was already a challenge, you know, before these   models. You know, many people have been working  with Masakhane, which is one of the African NLP   communities which is around creating datasets  in African languages for training the models.  

So that was, you know, getting good quality  training data is already a challenge. Sriram   [Rajamani] from MSR India, though, was telling  me of a really interesting project they've got   going on in India with the Indian government where  they are trying to collect data from each region   of India so that they can use it to train the  OpenAI models, which would be really cool. And   we should think about, is that what we can do  for different African countries and contexts?

Exactly. It seems to be very  much like a citizen science project, right, where you, sort of, involve  the citizens that speak different   dialects and then involve them in  collecting the right kind of data. O’NEILL: Yeah, yeah. And maybe  collecting the stories, you know,   and the cultural attributes and  assets from different places. That'll be really, really exciting probably also about preservation  of the culture and history, right. O’NEILL: Yes, yes. But challenging.

But challenging. [LAUGHTER] O’NEILL: Yeah. So that's one big aspect of the  work. Anything else that's happening there? O’NEILL: Yeah. So we're doing a lot of  work, you'll be unsurprised to hear,   on Future of Work and AI. And so we've  got a project on modern work and LLMs,   so looking at the work that enterprise workers,  frontline and knowledge workers, are doing and   then what bits of their job they would like to get  rid of if they could and what bits they would keep  

and how we can use LLMs to support them. And  we've also, like, Maxamed [Axmed] on my team,   also worked with The Garage to train them up  in foundational models, both the LLMs and the   vision models, and then they've introduced them  to a whole load of small businesses in Kenya. Oh, wow. O’NEILL: So that's really interesting. You got  everyone from like car salespeople to lawyers   who are now using, like, LLMs as part of  their everyday work, which is amazing.

As part of like composing  messages or part of ... what's ... O’NEILL: Yeah. Writing contracts, sales documents  for cars, all sorts of really interesting things. Oh, wow. O’NEILL: So we're going to go out and look  at what they're doing and think about how,   you know, what else is needed,  what, what more do they need. What's the prevalent form  factor in terms of if I think about, like, a computer there? Is it my, is  it a mobile phone? Is it a tablet? O’NEILL: Yeah. It's a mobile phone?

O’NEILL: It's a mobile phone. Yeah. So you have to rethink  also, probably, all the interfaces. O’NEILL: Yes, I mean ...  You mentioned that early on, right, as you think about the next  generation of HCI with AI in it, right. O’NEILL: Yes, yes. I mean conversational  interfaces. The idea that you can talk to   your phone or enter existing text, you  know. If you look at small businesses,  

a lot of their interactions with customers  are on chat. If you can enter that chat   into an LLM and extract structured data from  it, then suddenly you've got all this data   that's been lost to the business becomes  usable. So it's a really exciting space,  

and I think voice interfaces are going to become  really, really, really big. And that's why there's   opportunities for leapfrogging, because suddenly  everyone with a mobile phone potentially has a   really powerful office productivity tool in  their hand and can do things ... you know,  

many of the small businesses, they don't employ a  designer; they don't employ an accountant. But now   they could maybe have an accountant or a designer  in their pocket, which enables them to do more,   which is definitely the more positive side  of the future of work than some of the ... Right. You know, this whole enablement  story of people is just really amazing, what you can do with LLMS and especially with  voice interfaces, as well. Let me conclude maybe  

with a question about your career. I mean, it  seems like you've always amazingly managed to   somewhat align your career moves with your  passion. You moved to India because you're   just excited to live in India. You moved then  to, you know, Microsoft Research, but then you   moved to Africa again for, what I hear, is  a little bit the adventure, as well, right?

O’NEILL: Yes. So what's your advice  for people who want to, sort of, align these two and who want to not  only work but also want to work on   something they're really passionate about?  How do you manage to create that alignment? O’NEILL: That is a good question. I don't know. It  just, sort of, happens. I mean, I think you have   to, you have to be passionate about it; you have  to talk about it and decide what you want to do.  

You know, I never really imagined MARI would  happen. But I just started talking to people,   and people were saying, before I did the pitch,  people were saying to me, oh, what would you like   to do in five years, Jacki? And I was like, oh,  you know what? If I had my way, I'd love to run   a research center in Africa. And then within a  couple of years … it was nothing more than an   idea in my head. So I think that you have to have  the ideas, verbalize it, and maybe it can happen.

And why a research center in  Africa? What's personal for you there? O’NEILL: So my children are African; my  children are Cameroonian. So I wanted   them to grow, spend some time on the  continent, and, you know, as a family,   we'd always had that idea of moving to the  continent eventually. So that was part,   that was a personal motivation in  there as well as the passion. Yeah. So it's, well, sort of, the confluence  of, I guess, opportunity but then also drive

on your side? Because that's what I've heard very  often in careers, that it's not only about, well,   this is what I finally want to do but  also watching out for that opportunity. O’NEILL: Yes. So it seems like that played a big role  here, as well. And so when you heard about, you know, that there was an Africa Development  Center, how did you, what were your next steps   then? I mean, you must have been excited,  but you also had to take some action.

O’NEILL: Yeah, I mean, I created,  [LAUGHS] I created a small pitch,   a small set of slides, and then I just  started talking to everybody I knew   who was doing anything. I didn't  have any contact with the ADCs. So you created that  energy and excitement about it? O’NEILL: I just started to, you know, every  time anyone would come to India, you know,   I was just like, oh, this is what I'd like to do.  And you just almost talk it into being, I think.

And were there some setbacks, or  was it just like a straight line from, sort of, the excitement all  the way up to realization? O’NEILL: No, I mean, I didn't, I don't think  I ever really imagined it would happen,   you know. But you're just doing  it, and you're plugging away,   and then taking the, you know,  taking the advice of people. Really an awesome story. So maybe  as a last question, where do you see the

center being in like three to five years? I  mean, you're starting off right now, but I'm   sure you have really big ambitions for the center,  and there's so much to do on the whole continent. O’NEILL: No, absolutely. I think that I have a  few ambitions. So the most important, I think,   I want it to be really established as this  thing that's really beneficial to Microsoft,   that Microsoft is like, really, "Yeah,  the guys at MARI, they're doing great  

research. We really like them." So  that it, sort of, exists without me,   you know. At the moment, I think  I'm the driver of it. I would … So you want to grow the next generation that is basically going to be  the next generation of leaders? O’NEILL: Yes, exactly, exactly. And then  I think also grow, I would love to help   in growing Microsoft's market in Africa.  We don't have a particularly big market   in Africa, but I think there's a lot of  opportunity, especially now with these,  

with these large language models. I think that we  ... so that would be really exciting, you know,   if we can help. I don't see our success  only being about growing the African market,   but I think it's part of what we can do, and if  we can grow that market, as well as do research   that's relevant for Redmond and relevant globally,  that's really, that's really exciting, I think,  

you know. So everything we do, I think, has  to have a relevance globally. And I think,   you know, at the beginning I was talking  about different ways of viewing the world   and how that leads to innovation. I think  by having researchers who are African,   based in Africa, doing this great research,  we can create better products for everyone. That's such a great finishing note. Thank  you so much for the great conversation, Jacki. O’NEILL: Thank you, Johannes. It's been fun.