Episode 33 - .NET Open Source Library: Lessons Learned with Jochen Kirstätter

But before we get started , I want to remind you to follow us on social media so you never miss an episode and help us reach more amazing people like yourself . Today we have a special guest called Joki . Can you please introduce yourself please ?

I jumped into the first betas or early betas of NET back in the 2000s and , yeah , kept it in regular touch with it , went through the different stages of the framework and enjoying latest NET , 8.NET 9 development and bits and pieces . It's quite good .

Apart from that , doing a couple of things on Cloud , like on Microsoft Azure or on Google Cloud Platform , and having some fun with AI recently Good , great .

For example , recently I was , I'm , in the middle of development regarding the electronic sick leave system in Germany , so it's pretty interesting how to , you know , develop this and make a client integration with NET , which is pretty cool .

On the other side , I have to admit I do legacy applications because I'm the majority of my time I spend actually with microsoft visual fox pro , which is some really old school stuff , but still , yeah , it's , it's a cash go for for many clients and , um , you know , the the um numbers of developers that are still very familiar with these kind of systems similar

to COBOL is getting lower , so there is a high demand . I mean , I'm pretty happy . My position is looking very good . However , keeping on the pulse of time , as I mentioned , I'm also doing NET and , yeah , as I said , electronic sick leave system , bits and pieces , electronic invoicing system that is in Germany , that is in Europe .

So these are all these kind of things that I'm integrating into these kind of applications using NET . Kind of applications using NET . So still working with possibilities that you can enhance existing legacy systems with latest functionality provided by NET .

a NET with AI in that electronic system ?

However , there is also the possibility that you can have this COM free integration of runtime into the application .

So there's a kind of a bridge system , and that's what I'm using , and so this gives us the ability that , okay , with the existing legacy systems , we can then , you know , use the performance , security and power of what NET is offering and bring it into those legacy applications , you know .

For example , if it's like you need to have communication with a third-party system , there is an existing library for NET . It's easier to use this NET library , write some kind of an interface slash wrapper for the legacy application , instead of having to write a complete client outside of NET .

So I was like , oh my word , it's like you're losing a quarter of your life , you know , if you're not on the spot , like with a one year of a break , it's like . You know .

It was like I think it was back from dotnet framework 4.0 to 4.5 or something like that , and there was so much stuff happening during this time and I was like , oh , my word , there was so much stuff happening during this time and I was like , oh , my word , there's so much new stuff in NET in bits and pieces .

And then I was actually quite happy that NET Core came out , because then it was really like , okay , everything new from scratch , at least code-wise . And I also liked the fact that NET Core from the beginning was cross-platform , because , although that I'm doing my professional activities on the Windows platform , I'm a diehard Linux user since very early days .

So therefore I was really happy as well that , you know , with that core . I could then get my hands directly on the latest dotnet stuff , um , and experimenting with it on on linux and not just on windows , so that that was actually how it helped me to bridge that gap of knowledge that I lost in between .

And other other than that , yeah , I mean having this NET Core , net development from scratch , and the comparison about the differences in the APIs between NET Framework and what is now in NET 8 available and bits and pieces , so how you can bridge these two with using NET Framework and what is now in NET 8 available and bits and pieces , how you can bridge these

two with using NET Standard . That was quite challenging , but on the other side , I love it because it's really fantastic way to migrate applications as well .

If you have something still running in NET Framework , you push it onto NET Standard and you have something still running in dotnet framework , you push it on to dotnet standard and you have your your open path to migrate bits and pieces here and there then to dotnet 8 and it's it's just great to work with that okay , so one of question I've got act is that

what's the difference between dotnet frameworkwork and NET Core ?

The breakage came then with NET Core , because NET Core directly had the shift in the paradigm about hey , there's not only Windows , there's Linux , there's macOS , there are other platforms like ARM64 , as it turned out , and so , even though that they share the same name , net , it's two different products that are having similarities , and NET Core or nowadays , since

NET 6 , it's just NET

is really a product that has been built up from scratch , being cross-platform , giving you this unified experience that you can really have these cross-platform , giving you this unified experience that you can really have these cross-platform development .

Of course , there are still , you know , here and there , some restrictions because certain implementations are not available on one or the other platform .

However , it's completely free of any kind of Windows activities and I think this is the major step forward that Microsoft did when they came out around 2015 , 2016 , with the development of NET Core , and I really love it about this way Because , even if you see , on Azure , the majority of systems is running on Linux and not on Windows anymore , Having done the

ability that you can say okay , you can offer your services for the net developers running on a stable Linux system under the hood . That's a win-win for each and everyone .

The interesting thing is , you can take the example , the DLL as it is , from a Windows system and you can run it on Linux system and vice versa , and even on a Mac system .

On the other side , it's a situation that last year , around February , march , I jumped into a sprint organized by Google in regards to their Gemini AI system , and there I then said , ok , let's have a look what is available for Google Gemini , and , to my surprise , it's a situation that there is no SDK by Google that allows you to use Google Gemini in NET .

And so then last year in March , I sat down because it was a , let's say , scheduled sprint for over four weeks and , yeah , I really went into the documentation , into the API reference , into the samples about how the existing SDKs like in Python worked and how they were designed , and I created the Gemini SDK for NET from scratch .

On the one side , you have the , let's say , the one running on Google AI Studio , so you get one API for Gemini , which is more like for , you know , hobbyists and prototyping , you know , just for quick and easy experimenting . But on the other side , you have Google Cloud Platform , and there you have the second interface , which is then actually Vertex AI .

And the interesting part back in the time , let's say last year , march , it was that Google offered two SDKs for each programming language . So there was for Python , you got one SDK for Google AI and one for Vertex AI . For Java , the same .

There were two SDKs for each program language that Google supported , which was really strange and weird , and so one of the things that I did is that I looked into the documentation of both interfaces , and the NET SDK that I created directly had this unified experience , so that , using just one SDK for NET .

You could actually then program against both interfaces , whether it was the hobby side on the Google AI Studio interface or the Vertex AI running on Google Cloud Platform .

And the cool part is actually that around about October , november last year so let's say like half a year ago this is when Google themselves came out with their unified SDK for Python , which offered exactly the same kind of feature that you take one SDK and you can decide during initialization which interface that you want to use and operate against .

So that was a pretty cool experience and you know to see that unified SDK All right .

So meaning that my package that I created for Google Gemini has a second NuGet package that offers those implementations . So meaning that just by using one of my packages , you get the what is it ? Ichat client as well as the iEmbedding generator for . Gemini .

So it's really three lines of code and you can use Google Gemini in your application using Microsoft Extensions AI package .

All the available models , whether it's 1.5 , 2.0 , 2.5 , the latest models , it's 1.5 , 2.0 , 2.5 , the latest models , even gemma , um , all of their , all of the models that are provided by google are supported by the sdk , and you can again , with adding the nougat package three lines of code and then you can , you can use google gemini in your dotnet applications .

Straightforward , yeah , that's , that's quite cool .

So you can , you know , use the full range of net applications in order . Order then , to integrate Google Gemini with it .

So I think I have maybe one third party and I think , two and two , yeah , because , as I said , I mean I have the Microsoft extension logging to provide iLocker interface , but I really keep it on purpose on a small number of dependencies and I think at the moment there are two maximum free libraries that I need in order to implement the SDK , and if there is

the need for more , I have a separate package for it . So , for example , if you want to use the integration of Google Gemini with ASPNET , there's actually a web package that is built on top of my core package .

If you want to integrate it , as I mentioned , with microsoft extensions , ai , there's a microsoft package on top of my core package so that you know , the actual number of dependencies is as small as possible . So this this helps me to keep a good overview and I'm also like more or less keep a good overview and I'm also like more or less um .

Every second , every other day I check if there are new get updates and um and then I keep it up to date , like just earlier today I did . I saw that there was a package dependency package that was updated . Um did the upgrade

and pushed it out . So earlier today , just a few hours ago , I pushed out a new release based on the fact that everything is just running on , you know , ci CDs . For me it's about taking the version , pushing it and then at the end it appears automatically on NuGet in the gallery and people can update their clients .

a smaller minimum , so you can just only concentrate on few exposure that you need to update ?

It's just that I need to push the changes into the repository and enable it on GitHub so that I get the automatic pull requests from Dependapod if there's anything .

And so far I have to say that , for example , with the Microsoft Extensions AI , because they are still in preview and there's a lot of , let's say , movement happening and there's a lot of , let's say , movement happening .

It's pretty cool actually that Steven Taub from Microsoft , he is actually creating the pull requests for my SDK if there are any changes in the Microsoft Extension AI , and he does it also for a couple of other repositories , which is pretty cool because you know it's like wow , you're getting pull requests from a Microsoft team for your SDK .

So it was like come on , I want to use Google Gemini for my own NET applications , and I was like okay let's put it as a repo or make it public see what happens , and yeah , it's fun .

On the other side , on windows , I'm using visual studio and I'm also using visual studio code on both platforms . So , and yeah , as you might have noticed , I really love and like google gemini . So since the very beginning is actually that I'm using their code assistant , um , in order then to review and to improve my code .

So , just , it was only recently that I started experimenting a bit more with copilot . However , since since almost two years now , I'm using Google Gemini as a code assist and so far I've been really happy . It's also for the SDK .

The majority of the documentation , whether it is source code documentation like the XML docs , or even if it's then actual documentation or if it's unit tests that I needed for my SDK , the majority of them has been generated using Gemini .

About the end of 2006 , then beginning of 2007 , I immigrated to Mauritius , enjoying it here on the tropical island . It's pretty cool , but the situation was that the concept of user groups was not really present , so people were like doing their nine to five jobs .

or maybe on a Saturday ? And they were like what are you talking about ? What is this user group ? We haven't heard about that . We haven't heard about that .

Then I have to say that it's like you know , I had this concept , this idea about you know doing like a weekly code and coffee meeting just at a , at a public coffee , and and seeing maybe somebody is is showing up , and I have to say that I think the first six times I was completely on my own , I don't know .

I spent there like two hours at the cafe having my tablet , checking my emails , doing you know bits and pieces , and hoping that somebody would show up .

And then finally , after like seven weeks , two people showed up and they were actually Linux guys and , as I love Linux , we actually talked about a lot of Linux during this first real get-together back in 2013 . And , yeah , now , with 12 years passed , we are it's the largest user group here on the island in the country .

We have like close to two and a half thousand subscribers or members Since 2015, . We are organizing an annual developers conference . Our next one is scheduled for July . Last year , we had over 1,500 , 1,600 attendees over those three days and so , yeah , it's been really a blessing .

You know that I started the user group back then and I'm still having fun because I have . You know , I have this passion , this drive about sharing experience with others . Yeah , also , if they're coming up with questions , I like to assist . I like to help .

Maybe , you know , asking the right questions when they are stuck to stimulate them about coming up with solutions , maybe looking at problems at a different angle . This is what I like , which also means that during the past years , I participated in a couple of mentorship programs . I helped a couple of people to excel in their areas .

So this is one side in my spare time . On the other side , is that private life is that well , I try from time to time to go scuba diving . However , that's not happening often enough . Diving , however , that's not happening often enough . Um , since covet or since after covet , um also that after I had been uh treated and cured uh from cancer .

Yeah , so it's amazing thing that you do , trying to balance everything else your work , your passion for the community , as well your hobbies with , like , doing things that help your , your life , your lifestyle , whether it's your , your personal goal , yeah , so it's quite good yeah , time management is , um , quite important .

On the other side , I'm not doing a classic nine-to-five job because , you know , I have an obligation to say that . You know there are tasks that need to be done . I'm focusing in them and it , you know , sometimes it's happening like being under the shower in the evening , it's like , oh yes , this is how I can try to solve the problem for the customer .

And then I can happen , like , at 10 o'clock in the evening , I pop up , pop open the laptop and I sit down for another one hour , two hours , maybe three hours till after midnight and to come up with a solution and , um , so , yeah , so , and I can , and I can , you know , put this on my , on my uh spreadsheet like productive time and at the end of the

month I can charge a customer for that .

So whether it's just write it down in the notes so tomorrow you can just go ahead and test it to see if it's fixed , so that's yeah . So , as this podcast coming to an end , russian , so any other advice that you had do you recommend people when going into software development or dot net ?

You know , it's like when , when we have new members coming to the community , it's one of my pet questions . It's like how many books did you read during the last 12 months ? And it's amazing to see first the reaction on people's face and then getting the answer from them .

It's like , well , I read maybe one , two books which is already a lot um and and and it's like , but during studies , how many books did you read ? And they were like , yeah , I was like going through five , six , maybe seven books during a year . But now I have my job and they stop learning . And I'm like , no , you need to continuously learn .

And I mean , we see it , the previews of NET 10 are just coming out and there's lots of changes , a lot of new stuff , new concepts , new ideas that the teams at Microsoft are putting into it , and it's a continuous journey . So you can't just say , okay , I graduated , I got my job , and forget about learning .

So no , if you want to stay ahead of the game , if you want to play in the major leagues , if you want to be good in your job , continue learning . That's the daily experience . And

whether you do it for programming or maybe something else , like a hobby , I love doing language learning . It's that , apart from English , german , I know a little bit of French , I know a little bit of Mauritian Creole , but I also , because of another job in the past , I actually started to learn Dutch , which is also pretty much fun .

But the quintessence is learning is a daily experience . You wake up in the morning , you learn something . You wake up in the morning , you learn something . If , by the end of the day , you haven't learned something new , pop up a book you know and learn something , because this keeps you stimulated .

And the funny thing is , out of own experience , even that I sometimes , you know , learn something that has absolutely nothing to do with my current assignments . In about three , four , five months later , it's like chucky , are you aware of this and that ?

And I'm like , yeah , I read about that already , like you know , some months back , and it's an interesting concept and it can be done in such and such a way . And people are like , wow , that's great . Let's , let's , you know , dig deeper into that . And so this really helped me to stay , to stay up to date yeah .

Learn at your own pace , because the fast movement in microsoft on ai is overwhelming . So you just have to take time and learn bit by bit . You don't want to get overwhelmed with too much learning at once , so learn it on pace and just be consistent . I would say yeah definitely , definitely .

So you know time is your is the game changer . You know the classic race between the hair and and theise . Keep it going . You know persistency always wins over talent . And , last but not least , look into the fundamentals . So , whatever you're exploring as a technology , look into the fundamentals , build up a strong fundament and then you can .

You , you know , spread out into other areas , but the important part is really about fundamentals and when you get them done with your pace , then the other things , like more high level activities , they fall into place because you have a better understanding of the fundamentals yeah , that's great .

I learned something as well , uh , thank you , so I hope you have a great much , nicola have a great time .