Mick Shots: Scouting Around

other field too. So here we are. As you can tell, Bill Jones is not with us. He's on assignment in San Francisco with the Western Conference finals the MAVs and Golden State. Uh so I am filling in. I'm jealous. Everson Walls is filling in for me, although in his same seat, and we are glad to have Cowboys college scouting coordinator Chris Hall to join us. Christopher started to

be here, fellas, I'm doing great hopefully. I know Chris has done some of the other show podcasts, and for those of you on Mixed Shots that you need to understand that Chris is beginning to start his thirty third season with the cow Blow. What is your great, dude? Yeah, it's in there. That's why I keep it so long. He started at fifteen. What are you talking to? It jumps out, So I just want to say this, don't come on here like Patrick Beverley. Okay, we've been doing

just messing up everything. When it comes to the NBA puntings, they've allowed him to come into the studio. So he's just reaking have it and getting revenge on anyone that he played against. So he's ranting against Chris Paul. You know I saw that. Yeah. Yeah, well it's he's just like get back. You know, it's revenge on everyone. So Chris, we don't need that, Okay, I will be no more than we're not sure Chris has anybody to get in revenge since he's spent half his more than half his

life here with the Cowboys. Definitely. So how did you get started? Nineteen ninety? Yeah, so I was incredibly fortunate to land a job here in the fall in nineteen ninety, right out of college. Some of you may know the

name Brett Daniels. He worked in PR Forever and Ever, and Brett and I were roommates at SMU way back in the day, and Brett had got an internship in the pr department for a year and he chose to stay and ended up getting hooked on and he called me one afternoon and said, Hey, there's a spot in the scouting department. This guy just got fired over there

looking for somebody to work. And at that time I was using my you know, uh big SMU degree in advertising with the minor and physical education to deliver mail around the athletic compartment over there, and my bank account was quickly dwindling and I needed a real job, and he hooked me up with an interview with Dick Mansburger and Bob Accles, who were in charge at the time, and I did enough to impress him to get a second interview, and they hired me the second time back.

And I've somehow managed to stay here since September in nineteen ninety and worked in the personnel department, mostly in college scouting the whole time, and had a lot of great mentors over the years that helped me learn and grow in the game, and just been fortunate to be a part of this great organization for as long as I have, so be blessed. And so you have to understand Chris's job, I guess because I'm sure people that watched the draft they see Chris right there on the

big table all the time. And so scouting coordinator what

is that? Yeah, so you know, that role has kind of evolved and changed over the years a little bit, but essentially what it means is in charge of our database that we build our college draft board with every year, and we belong to a scouting service called National Football Scouting and that's kind of our jump off point where they give us a list of anywhere from eight hundred to nine hundred guys and we build our list and formulate our scouting areas with our staff around that, and

we set off at that point and from really well, we'll actually have our first meetings here over Memorial weekend where we'll get the new list for next year and we'll carve up the areas amongst all of our scouting staff and we go from there and we basically we kind of add guys as it go, and then we start to eliminate guys as we get through the fall and come up with you know, usually a little under two hundred names that we're interested in by the time

we get to our draft board and we build that together. So my job is making sure all the scouts get to their get to their schools, get their reports in help manage that. I cover all the schools in Texas and New Mexico as well, kind of giving us a second look at that. So I get to get out on the road a little bit too. And uh, you know, we just go through a whole process of building that draft board every year and we get to where we're at, uh in April, and that's our super Bowl at the

end of April. Or we get to make those make those selections. So Everson, he was nine years too late to help you out. Just gonna say, from nineteen eighty one to nineteen ninety did it change? Did the process change it all? I came out. I mean, I'm bawling, man. I wish you were that then you might have given me a break. You know, it might give me a good look. But now when it comes to you know, the how do you decide? Uh, you know, the like free agents and things of that nature. We talk undrafted

free agency, you know that kind of thing. Of course, it's sensitive to me when you start thinking about myself and the guy like Michael Downs say, and you have a person like him who came from Rice University. I think he had four career wins. Yeah, at Rice intelligent.

Everyone knew that about him. Tom Langie certainly shouldn't knew that the ballot because as soon as he came to camp, even though he was a free agent that we talk in nineteen eighty one, even though he was a free agent, he's the first person that was noticed in the defensive bad group right away. It's like, this guy's amazing. Is he for a Rice? No? Hell no, he can't be

for Rice R So how does someone like that? That's the hardest part of our job is we can teach anybody how to scout a football player, right, here's what we're looking for athletically and everything. The hardest part of our job is finding out who the person is and

can they learn or how do they learn? Right? How long does it take them to learn the playbook or learn whatever part of their position that they're going to have to do for a coach to have enough confidence in them to keep him on the roster and then eventually put him in the game. And that's the tricks part because sometimes we don't have access to the people who can really tell you, can this guy really learn football or what? How do I have to teach him.

He might not be the sharpest guy, but he gets football, and here's how I have to get it to him. Do you rank um undrafted? Yeah? We have different levels of free agents what we call we call a priority free agent, a camp free agent, and then the free agents that we hope we're playing against if they make another okay, okay, um so, and they all have a different value to us, you know, and now they have different right now, there's different categories you can put them in.

Can they have practice field players? Exactly? So, And that comes into it too when we're sitting there and making decisions after we've used the draft picks and it's over, and now we're signing rookie free agents. Um, we've got our list of that and and that becomes a real scrum with other teams. And you know that starts, you know, in a way before the draft so over, because as

you're going through that, you're starting to talk to agents. Hey, if your guy doesn't get drafted, you know what, you know, what would you be interested in coming to the Cowboys and a good age and has already scouted everybody's roster and knows, well, man, you know what, they've only got four dbs coming back. They drafted one. There's going to be two guys, two other guys that make their team. It's a great opportunity, and it might be if the

guy's really doing his work. It's more about opportunity than it is. Hey, we're going to give him five thousand dollars and the Dolphins are going to give him ten thousand dollars. Well, the Dolphins got a full house, but the Cowboys have two spots that somebody could make their roster. Back in the day, it was you got ten thousand and yeah, right, I'm I'm getting too right here. He's

a five thousand dollars. I got fifteen hundred bucks. Yeah, but compared to five thousand dollars nineteen eighty one, fifteen hundred five thousand, now that's pretty much have gone right right, Well, that's yeah, I think So that's a that's an extra zero on that total. Then Drew pierced and got back in exactly what was it seventy three, seventy three, whatever it was, and what he got a hundred and fifty

and they gave it to him. It's like they had cash, right yeah, and as he said, yeah, but Gil gave it to us in one so it looked like a big stack of money a lot, right or you know, you could have got a horse trailer as you're signing it, right. Yeah, that was a story back there, so sore Drew Drew would tell the story that so he got one hundred and fifty. He said, he barely had enough gas to get to the hotel where the cowboys scout was to meet him, and uh, he was going to go back

to the dorm. He was married at the time, but he was going to go back to the dorm and celebrate with the guys, right, so on me, So he said he called his wife and said I got drafted, and she was like, well, how much did you get? Uh up front? And he goes, well, I got seventy five dollars, I said, I want to make sure I had seventy five more to treat the guys, right, yeah, So yeah, I think so everything's changed now. So how

did how did they get ahold of you? How did they say they they were calling the uh where you had Grambling at the time. I was at Grambling. No, I was, I was. I was in school trying to finish up. Uh. They had three three classes that last semester. I was so upset that I didn't even get a look at They came to see me before the second day of the draft with the free agent contract before the second day were the free agent contract, and I believe I think it was uh Jethro. They came down

with the money, Jethro Pugh, I think Jethro, Oh, no doubt. Yeah, Well Bill would just hire out of anybody. You know, Hey, you know take a trip to Grambling, Like no, well, here's some money. Then you want to take a trip to Grammar. Yes, I'll take a trip to Grammar. And that's kind of how it happened. And uh, my buddy adslod King said, uh, he thinks they came down there with with two thousand, but if I if I went for the fifteen hundred, then he'd keep the other five hundred.

So that that was a wild wild West back then. And everybody was so mad about not getting drafted. And that's why I wanted to know what the look was in with gloss to ranking undrafted. Yea, And that what you just hit on is one of the harder things because the players disappointed he didn't get drafted because he's been getting buttered up this whole time. His agent's probably been telling him he's going to be a third round pick and he slides all the way down. And you've

spent all this money now training. Most of these guys aren't in school at that point, right they tap out and go to Michael Johnson's place or one of these exos facilities which are all geared up, and those aren't cheap. I mean, agents will spend twenty to thirty thousand dollars depending on the package that they put together. And that's training that includes housing, that includes meals, and includes all

the work that you do up to the combine. And then some of these guys don't even go to the combine and then they've got to rely on knocking it out at their pro day and having a great pro day. It's all in that one look at that point as to that can shape whether they get drafted or they become a free agent. And there's so many different variables

that go into that. The depth of that position on any given year, there might be a lean year at safety and only six, seven, eight guys get drafted, and then there's a whole bunch of guys and one of those guys is going to turn out being a Pro Bowl player. Speaking up, Okay, this year's draft week strong average depending on what position you talk about. I mean, you know, it started the quarterbacks, which is the moneymaking

thing right now. You know, there were really probably I think there were only six guys that got drafted this year, and you know a couple of them slid down that were at one point or another talked about as being first round draft picks, and only six guys got taken right, and you know that tells does that make it weak because the quarterback situation was weak? I think you could look at it that way, definitely. You know, you move

over to the running back position. You know, in the last few years, the term is it's been deep valued because people aren't paying for running backs anymore. You know, Zeke and Derrick Henry might be the two last guys that got big, big contracts. And now it's you know, you kind of find a guy that can come in there, you run them and it's it's a tandem position now. In a lot of cases, two guys are doing the job. There's not really any three hundred carry guys anymore in

the league. They're very few. So, you know, it's so hard on where you invest your dollars now with the salary cap, and especially if you have a quarterback and you're paying forty plus million dollars, that's twenty twenty five percent of the cap net in one position. So that's

where it's so important. At us on the college end, we hit on our draft picks and we get those value guys for three to five years, depending on where you take them, that make a little bit less money, that allow you to go out and play the free agent market, you know. So that's that's the challenge. We don't we don't ever want to miss on those first three guys because if you do, now you're having to go try and replace a guy that should be a

starter for you. You know, in our minds, we think our first and second round picks have to be starters at some point, and you're really you're really hoping your third and fourth round guys become starters, and again starters a relative term is a Nicolas starters. Your third round receiver starter is your backup tight end depending on how many what's your personnel packages are? How do you factor

those guys into whether they're a starter or not. So it's really interesting how you got to manage that cap and how so important what we do on the college end of getting those draft picks right has become paramount in helping your cap situation. So you're talking about the CAPE and you have money. How do I put this priority money per position? Right? Which position do you value

the most? When you're looking at those probably those first three rounds, it's like you you value certain positions more than others. Yeah, you do. And within that you're still looking at you know, you don't want to get on the team position, but you want to help your team out. So yeah, that's the other that's the other chicken. And the guys are you're drafting for need or you're drafting the best player, and at the end of the day,

you're trying to do both. You're trying to draft the best player that fits the need of your team that you have, and there's a little bit of a sliding scale there. At some point, you know, you look up and you're like, holy cow, how is that guy? Still there. We really don't need that position, but that guy's an A player. You always want to add a players to your I always say you want to add an A player to your roster whenever you can, versus a B player at a position that you need. So you got

first and second rounds that you probably ortize. So now you got once again undraft your free agents. And I've got a call from my I'm sure you get calls to people want to look at you, you know, to take a look at this kid or whatever. When I was coming out as a free agent, I did well. All of a sudden, everybody's calling me to see if they can get a try out for the Cowboys through me, because I made like, if Kuby can do it, anybody

can do it. And so that was weird. But uh, I get a call from about Marquis bell Is that Marcus down I was talking about up and so a guy like that, what's his story and how did he get here? We'll tell your connection first before you My connection is my college teammates, Mike Haines. Yep, other Mike Haines, not the Mike Haines. Uh. He has his older brother married to a young lady and they Wander, and Wander's

nephew is Marquis. So now they give me a call telling me to look out for him, and from what I can see, he's already being looked out for. He seems to be ranked pretty well. They seems to look good in his uniform. So as an undrafted free agent, what's his story and how did he get there? Yeah, So Marquis's story is a really really intriguing one. You know, he started off at Maryland and ran into some issues

there that that got resolved. But the long story short, he ended up at Florida A and M and he did really well there. And Marquis is a guy who has been as big as two thirty and as little as one ninety five throughout his college career. So he's, you know, one minute you might think he's a linebacker, the next minute he's a safety. And he's done well

at every stop along the way. He was a guy that we had kind of in the draft will range, and he slipped through because we chose to go in different direction with all those fifth and sixth round picks we had. But we had had a great connection with him and we had him here on campus as one of our thirty visits and got to know him really well, and I think that probably helped us in recruiting him as as a priority free agent as we would call it. You know, he's come out here and he's looked great.

You know, he's made a great impression. In wan Yer Thomas, another kid that we signed, they've both done a great job and caught the coach's eyes. They've got in, they've done the things they've needed to do, and you know he's going to have a shot to make our football team at the end of the day if he continues to do the things that he showed us right out of the gate. Um, do you open the picture I

sent you up? Saw that? Yeah, he look was it was a workout right and not looked at it and I go, that looks like a linebacker and he runs like one. And see another thing where positioning and one of the things that that has become there's especially with what DK Hughes brought in on our defense, we've got a lot of roles. So like what you saw with j K last year, Curse. You know, he's our big nickel. He matches up with tight ends and played incredibly so

now that's a role. Well, something were to happen to JK. We need somebody that can do those similar things. You know, Marquise and Jandair that type of guy that may fit

into that role. You know, their way in obviously is through special teams to start with, so you know they should already be best friends with John Fossil and getting all that stuff put together so they can play on all four units and find their way to that fifty three man and then ultimately game day ross which, by the way, so you you mentioned Fossil and uh, somebody asked him. So during the mini camp last last week on the weekend, somebody asked him, have you have you

talked to Fossil yet about special teams? Because he said, yeah. He goes in in high school, he was a quarterback, he was a wide receiver, he was a defensive back. He said, he returned kicks, but this was the good one. He was also a kicker who he kicked and he was a straight on kicker. He said, I didn't do that. I told the tick and someone to ask Aball, how

what's your longest kick? And he goes, I made a forty five yard or in high school, and so he goes, maybe that would that would be longer, right, right, because they'll goal post a different Well they're no, they're the same, but they're wider, Okay, I thought maybe. Yeah. Anyway, he said, maybe I need to go talk to coach Fossils. You got to fill that, Jeff Heathroll. That's right, Absolutely, somebody's going to be But yeah, when I started looking at

his stuff, how how versatile he was? Uh the fact that you know he he left high school early to enroll on Maryland, ran into a problem, and then ended up at Coffeeville Junior College, and then after two years ended up at fam Us who else went the Coffeeville Ron Springs Denny really Yeah, Yeah, he's one of the better one in best coffee fills ever seen. Tell Tell Tell Chris uh ron Springs. What he called people that

went to Rice. The acronym was a minute Rice minute Rice because they can only play well for one minute? Does will know about that? Yeah? He didn't stop there, Okay. He called all the HBCUs, the Negro League, so and and and and again. If if my information was right, Uh,

this will tell you how much they valued Mark. He's bell his signing bonus was fifteen thousand wousedly, So that's kind of the upper level of what we definitely have as we go into that, we prioritize and you only now the Yeah, the tricky thing is you only have for your rookie For your rookie free agents, you only have I think the number this year was one hundred and sixty seven thousand dollars up and down from that shag maybe up just a hair literally, I think it

was one sixty or one sixty five last year. So, but that's all you have in a signing bonus to allocate to the guy. Now, there's some other ways where you can guarantee P five money for a guy, and what we try and do is equate that too if he makes the practice squad, will it balance out so you're not on the downside of owing a guy that's not here. And that's where it gets tricky. I mean, not everybody hits. You miss on a few of them too, or guys struggle to pick things up and or they

they're not exactly what you thought they were. Now, I think I feel like we've done a phenomenal job over the years of going in rookie free agents that goes all the way back to the example of you and Drew and all the way back. And you know we had Tony Romo, Miles Austin, Barry Church. I mean, guys that came in. Jeff Heath was another one, uh, Cole Beasley. Guys that have come in and been productive starters for us.

And that's a big, big piece of pride that we love should because it's an extra it's an extra draft pick. And if those guys make your team, they're you know, they're not hurting your cap the first few years they're in there. They're their bargains. Quite honestly, cowboy's free agency has always been legendary and back in your days, it

wasn't about the cap. It was about Texas back pocket, right and also the great thing back in the day, I mean, how many guys did you go to training camp with your first and how many days did you go before the even showed up? Yeah, we had two weeks again shape with By the time they got to see us, we look totally different from when we left Dallas. Yes, crazy.

So anyway, Yeah, when I looked into after you told me that, I said, well, this kid's he's got something U and then obs what they ended up paying him was saying, Okay, they think he does have something. So you got a guy to keep an eye on. But when you see him, he passes the eyeball test. I'll guarantee you was there anybody else that maybe stuck out

that you are okay to talk about? You know, we feel like part of that thirty visit stuff is great for us because a little bit of that is a recruiting pitch when you get to that point if you think a guy's going to be a late round pick versus a free agent, if he's already here and has some familiarity with your coaching staff and your coaches have been able to get him in the room and talk ball with him and give him a little football test and see how he picks up this part of the

scheme that you're installing. Now, you know you got a guy that you can teach and grow and learn and work with. A couple of the running backs that we brought in, Malik Davis. He was another kid we had on our deal for a thirty visit and had a good feel for him them and you know that position, I don't know where we're going to be for a

year from now. You know, you got contract issues coming up with Tony and Zeke both potentially Rico Dado, who was our third last year's coming off a hip injury, and you know that's a spot where a guy might be able to make our team. And the more you can do. The other big thing we always say is the more you can do. What's the second thing a guy can do? Is he a core special teams guy? Does he return punts or kicks? Can he play a second position? If you're a receiver and you can play

inside in outside, that's a huge value. We want guys that can that can do both, so we can move them around so they can play all three spots or no, all three spots. I tell the kids all the time. I coached some kids every once in a while these uh private camps, and I tell them, the more you can do, the more you can do. That's it. The more you can do, the more you can do. You know.

Dan Quinn to kind of pick up with Chris said earlier he was talking about when he looks at a guy, you know, he looks at him not so much as what he did in college, but what he would do for me in my system like they were. I think it came up about Tyler Smith. Yeah, and he was saying, well, you kind of look at Okay, well, this is what they asked him to do there. This might be what we asked him to do here. Same thing with Sam Williams.

That's who he was talking. It's like, Okay, old miss wanted him to do this, but when he comes here, we're going to ask him to do that. And he goes and that's why, and he just off the cuff said, and that's why. When I saw Marquis, he said, huh, maybe he can play linebacker for him, you know. And so that's how they And then you go back and you look at his history and he kind of did and you know, he can be two hundred and thirty pounds if that's the direction we want to go with him.

So those things you factor into. And it's not just the physical, it's the mentality that he has. I've been there before. I know I know how to play. Okay, from high school, I was a safety with the Graham and became a corner. But and all of a sudden, I go go to the pros nineteen ninety, I'm playing safety. You know, but it's it was always there from from high school. Just as you know, the game looks different from whatever position. So the difference between We argue about

this all the time. I can play right or left corner, or right or left safety, offensive lineman, especially tackles. Okay, right tackle, left tackle? Is it that uh detail that is difficult to play one side versus the other? Why can't a guy because you see cornerbacks do it all the time. You go from the right side to the left side, no big deal. You might feel more comfortable one side the other, but this it's not gonna be a deal breaker if I have to go play left corner.

But I'm a right corners bags and I talk about this. He thinks that the nuances between the right tackle and left tackle it is huge and makes a huge difference in how you gray the player and what you're gonna put he's on the team. It's probably comes down to who you're playing against you because normally the defensive end on that side is the guy that's the guy most

you know. It's funny, though, I'm not sure that's so much the case anymore anymore, because even we've done a little research on that go look and see where Miles Garrett lines up. Most of the time he's going against the right tackle. And you know, the whole blindside thing came in because that's you know, most quarterbacks are right handed. You want to protect the backside of him right And yeah,

well that's no question. And you know, to answer your original question, I think the biggest thing for the lineman is the footwork and the hand placement. It's all opposite. Yeah, out at corner, you're flipping your hips right and if you if you're a slinky athlete out there, you can

probably flip open one way or the other. Now, if you've always been a right tackle your whole life, and your your feet are moving the same way and you're hunching more with one hand, it makes a huge difference to all a sudden flip over to the other side and now it's backwards and you kind of gotta work into feeling that a little bit now. Really good guys can do that. Yeah. Um, you saw Terrence Steel flip back and forth for us last year out of necessity

until we kind of do it to do it. No, you want to stay comfortable, you know, you want to keep your five together as much as you can, because it's the buddy system too. I know what what Zach's gonna do playing here on my left, and I know what Tyler's going to go here, and you know all that kind of stuff. The more familiarity, the more of those five guys can play together, generally, it's a better field. They're they're on the same page. And are you looking

at tackles that can swing? Do you look at you love to find the swing tackle. What you feel about it, you know, and one that could play garden? Sure of course come from guard then go swing tackle. And here's here's here's a great point on that. You know, I think, you know, media wise, maybe we took a little heat because you know we might have you know, showed our drifting board up there on the deal and the guy we took was higher than, you know, than Kenyan Green

and m and Zion from BC. Now, neither one of those guys were available for us. But you know, between Zion, you know, being a guard center and Tyler being a guard tackle, if you think a guy can be your left tackle for the future, you're taking him a hundred times over one hundred verses. The guy that might be your center for and that's the value of the left tackle position, the pass rusher, the shutdown corner, the quarterback.

They just have, you know, a more perceived value. And if you can get a guy at that spot that can play that and you're not hunting that position, you know, that's a home run for you. All Right, So I'm not driving the bus very well as normal. Yeah, we probably need to take a break here on Mick shots, Everson Walls, Mickey Spagnola, Chris Tall, and we will be with you in a moment. Brace yourself for an existential question. Has your butt been having enough fun lately? Have you

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say this w K Post Company dot com. You can put the www in there if you want to, but I'm not gonna do it. So see, I told you I had to move. All right, We're back here at Shots at the s WBC studio not more not morgasm, almost after almost years saying right and uh, we're happy to be joined by Chris Hall, all the Cowboys scouting coordinator with us here and Chris worked with a guy that could tell a story right, and he's a story in himself. Former Cowboys College scouting director and pro scouting

director Larry Lacewell passed away yesterday. You didn't know that Lace passed away. He had suffered a couple strokes since twenty sixteen, and it I mean he was here from nineteen ninety two, I think through two thousand and four, three thousand and four. At two thousand and five, Bill was kind of reconstructing the scouting department and Larry was let go. And he had a great quote talking to the Touchdown Club in Little Rock a little bit after that.

He said, I left the Cowboys due to illness and fatigue. Bill Parcels was sick and tired of me. I thought that just sums up That sums up Lace, right, I mean, I've got so many stories he Uh no, I don't know what two alpha males is? That what it is. I think Bill probably thought I'll answer to this. He may know, but he probably thought that Lace had a pipeline straight to Jerry didn't have to. But anyway, uh, nineteen ninety two to two thousand and four, and uh gosh,

Chris worked with them almost every one of those years. Yeah, I sure did. And Larry was you know, became like a second father to me and really mentored me along and learning the game of football. And developing everything that that I did, and not just Larry, all those guys that I worked with when I first came in. Sadly, there's only two of them left at this point, Ron

marsh Sack and walt Yworski and Jim Garrett. You know, I was so fortunate to be around guys that had just unbelievable experience in the game on so many different levels.

But Larry was great. I I you know, I worked two years with Dick Mansburger and Bob Eackles and those guys, and and Dick was Dick was a hard charging twenty four to seven, probably thirty seven, and you know, I was a twenty three, twenty four year old kid right out of college, and you know, there were a few other things on my interest played at the time, and you know, I was I was actually gonna leave and

go to grad school at University of Colorado. And Dick came in the day after the draft my second year here, and he quit, you know, he just he didn't like Jimmy moving the magnets around on the board, you know. So Dick checked out, and I decided, well, I'll wait and see who comes in, and they hired Larry, and like I said, Larry became my second dad. And his relationship at the time with with with Jerry and with

Jimmy and then of course with Barry. I mean, they all had this Arkansas connection and they were all, you know, truly had a love for each other at various different times, you know, growing up, and they intertwined and intermingled over the years from the sixties and seventies to the eighties, and they had this great history amongst all of them, and then they all end up here. Yeah, and just

unbelievable great football minds. And uh, you know, as you mentioned Larry got he could tell a story that you know, it was he loved. He loved interjecting himself into it. But he was first wanted to step on his own toes and they would love it too, you know. And you know, he just brought so much to the table

with everything. And I think he helped so many of those defensive coaches in particular and grow up into you know, Campo and Zimmer and those guys just learn about the game and help them along the way with everything that they were doing too. On top of learning the scouting

game and how that all worked and everything. And I think my funniest one of the funniest stories I could tell about Larry was he'd been here a year or two and Jimmy was still here at the time, and we belonged to a pro scouting service called Getting Scouting, and Gettings would grade all the NFL players. It was kind of a supplement to your pro department. But they had a book and a number. You'd get this book all the time. Well, well Larry didn't his first year.

He didn't really have any idea that that was even there. And Jimmy would come into Larry's office every now and then and say, hey, what about this guy Lasion, need you look at him? You know, he'd give him a little description of him, and you know, Larry'd go, look at him. Go damn, Jimmy, he's got that guy right. Well, for longest time, Larry had no idea that Jimmy had these Getting Scouting grades. And he would come in if there's a trade coming around, and he'd be like, how

does that say? It's no all these guys like that, How does he have time to watch him? And scut here was in the Gettings and it was just you know, I was like, okay, I got it. So that was kind of a funny learning lesson along the way. But man, there are just so many great you know, being a part of three Super Bowls and their Lindies and everything, and you know, getting all those draft picks we had back then and still taking advantage of building the team

through that and everything. And Larry was a huge part of that and learned along the way and was a great confidante for Jerry and Jimmy too, and then of course Barry when he was here with all that too. I mean, he kind of was the piece in between everything that kind of kept everybody in touch with what was going on on the other side of the building old Valley Ranch back there, which is a matter of fact, Lace thought he had patched things up in ninety four

in that spring. I remember him telling me, he goes, yeah, he goes. You know, I calmed Jimmy down. I calmed Jerry down. He goes, I think we got one more year left, and he didn't have. But he was he was always the guy in between and uh gosh, I could you know, he taught me a lot of football just listening to him, right, That was one of Larry's gifts. It didn't matter who you were. He would talk football

to a chipmunk. I mean it was if you were willing to listen, he was gonna give you his knowledge of the game and it was it was vast and the experience that he had, you know, from from being the left guard coach on the JV team for Bear Bryant in nineteen sixty when he first started at our first job coaching Bear Bryant. Bear and his dad grew up together in Four Dice, Arkansas, and Bear always took took good care. And that was another great story too.

I remember Larry Tall, he was the head coached Arkansas State at the time, and they played Alabama, you know, one of those money games, and Larry was all pissed off and he was talking to Bear before the game, am saying, my damn offensive coordinator wants to do this and that. And Larry would always do voices too, and he said, you know, Bear said to him, well, Larry, let me ask you the question. He said, are you the head coach? He said, well, yeah, of course I'm

the head coach. Well then it stops with you. And it was a great lesson that you know, if you are the head coach, you dictate what what goes on. I think it's a great lesson and reminder to everybody

that you know, that's where it comes down to the perspective. Yeah, there was another story came out of that game too, because they basically played the game to make money, right, they got paid to Anyway, There's a story I read about it said that Larry was underneath the goal post before the game and it was warm ups and Bear comes up to him and goes, well, Larry, you're scared. And he looked at him. He goes, Coach, I'm scared

to death. And they only got beat like thirty eight to seven, and anything Barrett probably pulled off, you know, the troops and uh, but yeah, I just think it's great you have. All the great stories are not just on the field. Right when you start talking about the legacy. I always were always talking about the legacy. How the draft and uh with with Fredericks and those guys, just

how we created that that offensive line. How that's why Zeke got to be a contract that you just talked about because of that draft and so, uh, you guys are the reason for that, right, I mean you're trying to create that uh from year to year. Right, Yeah, either you keep either you keep this particular culture going

the running game in this particular case. Now you trying when do you start switching over to defense or kind of we're gonna have We're gonna be, uh like a Ravens guys defense or are we gonna be a finesse defense. So these are the kind of things that you guys have to figure out when you draft these guys. Those are those are some of the hardest things for us

to do. And I can't give Will McClay enough credit for what he's been able to do, you know, since he's taken over in terms of bringing our coaching staff and our scouting staff together through different coaches and everything. But there's some places where coaching and scouting is its

separation of church and state. They don't communicate, they don't We have such an amazing relationship from personnel to coaching, you know, they allow us to be a part of things and sitting meetings and understand terminology and we know what what DQ's looking for on defense, and what Kellen's looking for on offense, and overall what Mike wants to build a football team with and what they look like.

And you know, sometimes that takes good football players out of out of our range, you know, because you know, maybe we want we want big receivers, so small guys, or you've got to have speed, or you have to have athleticism to play in everywhere, but it's more important

at certain spots. But us understanding and owing what our coaching staff wants to play with, man, that's a huge advantage for us knowing that when we see a guy, he's a good player, but he really doesn't fit what we're doing, so we don't devalue the guy, but we

know that. Look, I know that guy's gonna be a good player, but I'm not going to die on the hill of trying to make him a third rounder on a draft board because he's really not what we're looking for in our offensive scheme, our defensive scheme, or whatever specific position you're talking. I remember my last year's with Cleveland clearly not just getting older, but slower. You could tell, hey, we're going to with speed, and I was gone, And

that's the decisions that they have to make. I could have I probably could have had an even better preseason or whatever. I don't think it would have mattered because this is where they're trying to go. And that's just it. I don't care how many players are making they know it's not gonna last forever, you know, And so that yeah, see, Led, thank you. It was great having you. And that's when you talk about a change in the scope of the team,

that's what's talk about. So one of the things that I always remember Larry kind of teaching me just listening to him, and would it be at times where I don't know, one side of the ball the other wasn't as good as it needed to be. And he would always tell me, he said, now on defense, I can scheme stuff up to maybe minimize my deficiencies and kind of junk it up and we can probably survive. He goes. On offense, you can't fake offense. No, he goes, you

either got it or you don't. And you definitely can't fake the quarterback position. And he would just I would hear that over and over and I just always remember that about him. And I have to thank Chris because I remember Larry the last time he came to hear to the Star, and Chris reminded me he was twenty seventeen. So twenty sixteen he had had a stroke and he came here and they brought him out on the golf cart and he still had not just a golf cart

that helicopter brought him first. But he went out on the field and I saw him and he hadn't regained his speech yet from and I'm going, this has got to be the saddest thing I've ever seen. I wrote about it for Today on Dallas Cowboys dot Com that the guy that loved to talk couldn't talk, He couldn't tell any more stories. And it was like, I was so happy to see him, but it was so sad

that he was in that situation. But he battled on um and I think he had another stroke, yeah, he said, you know he unfortunately that first one took away his vast majority of his ability to communicate. He couldn't type, he couldn't text, so you couldn't even get to him with that. And Chris, his wife, God bless her, you know, for which he did for him the last five years

or so. It was amazing. And it just, you know, it hurts seeing Larry not be able to do I mean, if you talk about somebody who was stuck in purgatory for the last five years. And it's funny. I texted with his son the other day and you know, after he passed the other night, and uh, he said, you know, I said, you know, Dad's up in heaven right now, you know, and he's holding court. And Lane, Lane said to me, he goes, I thought the same thing. He said.

You know, some poor some bitch was in the middle of telling this new guy showed up and he hadn't been able to get a word. And I believe that. Hun, you know, so it's the floodgates are back open. Yeah, you know, it was uh, yeah, it was. It was pretty much. I mean, how he's spent from ninety two through you know, even after he left. Yeah, I would check in with him about this guy or that guy or why this didn't you know, and he was always going to go on and on and on and on.

So when he was when they were leaving, I kind of gave him hug because you know, I know he could hear me, but it was just, uh it was kind of emotional from yeah, and uh so God bless him and fortunately I think, uh, you know, he was in the state of Arkansas Sports Hall of Fame, Arkansas State Hall of Fame. Uh, the Arkansas mana Cello, which was an m M the Hall of Fame. And then in twenty twenty one, uh and four did you say, twenty twenty No, no a M what what man Cello?

Warks Arkansas and m oh okay, but before I mean it was and then it turned out into Monicello, Arkansas, Monicello and uh and in twenty twenty one, So in four dice they named the high school stadium after Bear Bryant. Bear Bryant Stadium. Well, they named the street leading up to the stadium Larry Lacewell. Oh it's pretty so kind of kept together and uh yeah, we'll miss Larry Lacewell. All right, we have one more segment left here on Mick shots. Before there was a draft, you could size

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you're watching from home or cheering in the stands. With lenses, you'll see every exciting play book, an appointment at your local experts, and find the perfect lens for you. See more, do more. Very good. That was nice. I got my slurs on right now, is that they are expecially you might have to go get me some go get in your pocket. Though, well maybe it's all worth it, worth it out there, worth it that I read there, read there every day, right all right. Got a few minutes

left here on mix shots. And one of the things I was in Kitto, since we were talking about undrafted free agents, the Cowboys brought in an undrafted free agent kicker yep, Jonathan Garabay, And I wonder how a whole new way of scouting rights And now I was going to ask how difficult that is to figure out? Okay, this college kicker, maybe that's a whole new basketball. Yeah, you know, I mean we can all pretend like we know kicking named Steve Hoffman your way back in the day.

My history with that was you know, Dan Bailey him when he came out. And the only thing I say about kickers, I couldn't tell you roll step, two step, jab step all that stuff. I just I've never heard that before. I just looked to see does the ball go between the two yellow pipes and does it look the same most of the time? Right? And you know, honestly, that's what Jonathan did this year. Fifteen out of sixteen. He's got a ginormous leg. He hit a sixty two

or sixty three yard winner. Uh this year, only just one kick, and he's come out here. He's done a great job, you know, And obviously we're the most attractive place for an undrafted, you know, rookie free agent kicker to look at. And uh, you know, I hope he continues that track of nailing the ball like he has, and if he does, he'll be the Cowboys kicker for a few years. For showing up. Back in the day,

you know, many kickers didn't get injured. And now I guess with the training and you know, doing more stuff, you got kickers being injured. I mean, you can't. You know, you look out for that. You know. One of the things that Hoffman taught me about kickers is he said, I want to see the ball go straight. I don't want under the curved stuff golf right and he goes and it was what Chris said, I want the kick to look the same. I jokingly say that, but like

that's the simplest thing. If if if the ball looks the same all the time and it and it gets up in the air quick, whatever he's doing, I mean, oh, we can fix this is plant foots a little. The kicker knows what he's doing most of the time, and if the ball looks the same, he's probably pretty good. When I'd see somebody miss or it hit the upright and and Hoffman would go, yeah, but you know what

he did. He kicked it straight. It just went straight, and you know, maybe his aim was off, but the ball didn't move like when Zurline had troubles last year, the ball was moving. It seemed like he would hook it. And it's like, God forbid, don't you know, don't put him on the left half. So you guys signed h Voss trying to think of the guy he was here and then he just kicking his balls just stup going, man, what I mean, how often does because he was a

good kicker. If I'm lost it overnight, yes, overnight it seemed actually the playoff game, remember, you know, I just I think so much of that is just your confidence too, And it seems something went wrong though overnight. Like he's saying that you're kicking the same way every time, saying motion. You know what. Gary Gara Bay had a funny quote.

They asked him about, you know, kicking and everything, and he goes, well, he goes, ninety nine percent of it is mental and he goes, and you know what, the other one percent is mental too. You know it's the Steve Sacks. Yep, she can't throw it from second right. It's all of a sudden, you right, your whole life and about the same thing, or you all of a sudden you can't make a three foot putt. That's crazy. It's like, you know, Jordan Speed felt with that a

little bit. All of a sudden he's a great putter, and then all of a sudden he can't make a four footer for some reason. It's it's it's in your head, I think. Now they brought in a surprise kicker too. By the way, free agent Simon Matheson, did you know much about him before he or I honestly no, not a whole lot. That's a little bit of the John Fossil, Henry Schroka wizardry and the kicking get this story, you know, Yeah he uh he he kicked at north West Missouri State, Yes,

and he finished in twenty sixteen. And then he's uh uh he was born in New York, but he grew up in Sweden. Okay, And oh yeah, we talked about this, remember we talked about him. So he got a chance, yeah, I E se right. Uh, he got a chance to kick on on Friday in Saturday. Uh. It was an interesting story how he uh he knew the owner of this company called track Man, and they were the ones that came up with the technology to track the different aspects of kicking and the flight of the ball that

they used in the Super Bowl. So he would go and set up the system and then kick to make sure it was working right. And and he was kicking and kicking, and you know, I don't know how they found him, but he said he said, Henry, Henry knew about me, or something like, yeah, I think he was at some of the kicking camps. There's a couple of kicking camps that they do every year, and ones in Arizona, ones in California. Nobody, all the special teams coaches go

to watch the guys kicking. It's guys from everywhere. They'll get soccer players and you know, guys that have been out for five six years and they're still trying to find their way into it. And long snappers are there as well, so they'll get graded on, you know, whatever the scale is, and you can see a whole bunch of guys work. It's a giant tryout essentially, and there's always a random name or two that pop up out

of it that looked like they can hit it. And again, if you're consistent and you can do it, you can find a job in the NFL. They asked McCarthy, what his philosophy was dealing with young kickers. And I don't know he I don't know if he tried leading into this, but the bottom line was he said patience. I would call the free all comers, he aids and tryouts. He was way before your time. Texas Stadium, Yeah, man, they would come out there, over a hundred people coming out

there running for the days. And it was more than that. It was more than that. You know, that was good pr for the cowboy pr but that was the culture that they had created. Free agents come here and they can make it. You know, it's like like an immigrant coming to America. You know what I mean, your opportunity, you give me hiss an opportunity. That's what they used to look at. Twenty five dollars you got to try out and a T shirt certificate. Well, you know what.

They did it for a couple of years, maybe after Jimmy got he I was one year or two, maybe three at the most was in there. And like Will's got some great stories from that too, from when he was the Desperadoes coach. They kind of revitalized that a little bit, right, And the funniest story he tells out of that is you know, you run the forty R dash and he literally, a big old dude runs the

forty and literally hits the brakes stops. He says, well, my time, coach, like no follow through or anything, and it's just like, you can't make that up. He didn't make it. Yeah, Jimmy finally decided Yeah. Uh. And there's one more guy I wanted to talk about, and I know we're getting post to finishing. Uh, the third pick in the fifth round. Another guy like I told you

about Marquise Looks the party Demon Clark, the linebacker from LSU. Uh. Interesting story because he had surgery that they found out he had a herniated disc in his neck at the combine. Uh and you know, probably not going to play this year. If he does, maybe the final month. And they drafted him and that's got to be a tough call. But my thought is this is a second or third round guy you got in the fifth. Yeah. And Demon's story is a great one too, And a little bit of

it comes from quote unquote inside information if you will. Um. You know, our doctors were the ones that found his situations what he said combine, and you know our training staff were the ones that told him about it and how he acted and reacted to it was just like, I mean, he you know this, this could end your career, end of your dreams, right potentially, and he said, Okay, what do I got to do. Let's do it. And you know, he was having surgery within a couple of

weeks to get it done. And you talk about a guy with the right mentality. We've got a little history with obviously taking injured players or guys that have issues that you know are going to pop up. I mean, uh, you know, we took a guy from Notre Dame a couple of years ago who turned out pretty good for a while for us, and you with Jalen you know, but but doctor Cooper did his knee surgery, right, yeah,

so again we had inside information. Uh you know, we took Sean Lee in the second round knowing that his ACL was probably going to go at some point in time. It did, it did. But like Demon's situation is really interesting because you talk about a guy that was locked in out here at rookie minicamp. He's got the script in his hand, he's going through the motions, he's doing the footwork, he's using his hand placement and you know, here's a guy who's what two months off serious neck surgery,

but he's ready to go. And if there's a guy I'm going to bet on to come back. Now, the real test will be when you got to put your face on it and get hit. And as a linebacker, you know, you're putting your face in it and you got to do that. And if we see that he does that, you know what, he might be a great steal for us out of this draft. You know, I wasn't a heck of a football player. I wasn't sure who he was when they went out there. I didn't look at the number and I saw this guy, what

do you have fifty three fifty three on? Yeah? And I go look at that guy six two two thirty nine and he ran like four five four four forty yep. And it's like holy cow. And I said, well, that's that's why, that's why they took a chance on him, right yeah. And it's again it goes back to who you are too. He had the number eighteen jersey, which is an honor at LSU. You know, that's the guy that that has a blue character, as we like to call it, is the right kind of guy that he's

a leader of your team. He's gonna have that captain's patch on. You know. You put that together with the grit and the tenacity and and doing all those extra things. And that showed up out there, you know, the other day. And that's who he is, and that's who that's the kind of guy you want to build your football team with every opportunity you have. You want guys like that, and and and and the thing that really impressed me,

h I think. And it was a short interview, uh you know, and he his answers were all right, right, like, well, when you think you can play, I'm worried about tomorrow, you know, day by day I'm not going to put any ceiling on myself or whatever like that. And then someone asked him what were your thoughts when you were going into surgery or when you just got out of surgery, and he said, my first thoughts were I've got to

be a healthy man to help raise my daughter. It wasn't about football, right, That's that's how he answered the question. And I said, okay, I want this guy on my team, right, And you're right if some guy can and guys have you know, Darryl Johnson played another year or so after he had similar they fused your vertebrate. Yeah right, that was after his career. He didn't have it soon enough. Now he did not Layton Vanderess, similar surgery, similar tech,

and they played. But you're right, you know the surgery is gonna work now mentally can you are you going to stick your head in there? But the way I looked at it is I was thinking, with four or fifth round picks, I could use one or two of those and I'm trade up, you know. And that's the advantage that we had of having for the round picks. And you know, during the draft, we had a couple opportunities maybe to package a couple of those up to go get them. But part of our job is understanding

the depth of the draft. And this year's draft there was there wasn't a lot of high high guys. The strength of the draft was in the middle of the draft the world. And I think we got some phenomenal players. I mean, we've mentioned a bunch of them already. I think John Ridgeway is another guy that's gonna you know, we didn't have to take a nose tackle high up in the first or second round. And John's got a chance to come in and do some great things for us.

Ever since his thighs they looked like redwood trees. And he's he's got that killer mentality in there that he's not afraid to put his face on it and get dirty and play a gap to a gap like a mean dude. You know, the last two guys we took, Darren Bland and Devon Harper. You know, they're they're productive

college guys, led their team in tackles or interceptions. They both have a great special team's history, and those are guys that that's how you're going to earn a spot as a backup, coming in and moving up, you know, as as you learn and find a role on the team. And you know, we're just super excited about this draft class, and you know, can't wait to get into training camp and see where guys are in their roles. Keep an

eye on Bland. He's a corner and he was and I know they're out there and T shirt or jerseys and shorts, and but he was around the ball when he was playing corner a lot. And I'm going, okay, And then another guy and that's kind of how I judge them early. It's like, how do they handle these interviews? Right? It was like second nature to him. Funny story on him. When he came in here, the airlines lost his luggage and like for the visit or for visit, So you know,

here's the guy I'm going to meet the Cowboys. And let me tell you, our thirty visits way different than any other teams because you get to meet the owner of the football team here, you get to spend I mean, obviously we have this wonderful facility that gives us a little bit of humph too, but part of our visits meet and Jerry and Stephen Jones and you get a chance to talk to the owner as as a twenty one, twenty two year old kid. I mean, you don't get

that opportunity to other places. So this poor guy loses that airlines loses luggage, you can't come in. He's got you know, sweats and a T shirt on and everything. So you know, we went and got him some some Cowboys to But I mean he handled it like a pro, you know, And that tells you a lot about guys too. You could be angry at the world for losing your luggage and it happens to all of us at some point.

But the way they handle adversity is always a big thing for us to to keep in mind when we're thinking about who who the guy is, not who the player is, you know, and I think that goes a long way for a lot of these guys. A guy from Old Miss Sam Williams, the defensive end. We talked about him last week. Um, he came in for the visit and they were asking him about how to win everything. He goes, I wanted to miss my flight. I didn't

want to leave. And that was his visit, right he had got drafted yet, and he and uh and dan Quinn hit it off, I guess right away. But when you can see a change in your life coming and then you see this facility, you know, it's kind of

hard not to be overwhelmed, you know. As a kid, some of them twenty years old, like you said, twenty one years old, I don't know what I would just look at what I had to look at when I came to the Cowboys, the facility that we had, and like I'm sure your reaction was like, what the hell? It was like they won Super Bowls practicing in this place So how long did it take you to meet Tom Landry? Then? Yeah, thousand Oaks? So not I mean you met Tom. I mean you know he can't and

talk to us, but you don't meet Tom. I think Tom Lander went about shaking people's hand introduce it him. So he did not come on, Oh you wan't there, that's right, Yeah you want there? No, but that didn't happen. We met time in the meeting. We met him. When we met that was it? So had you met a culture? Was just Gill and whoever? If I recall, Gene Stalin's the first person that we met, and he was just a bundle of joy. Yeah, I was gonna say that

probably scared exactly, got that bad Bryan accent. Yeah, I'm from Texas, man, This stuff is traumatic. So now it was it was very you know, just just regularly what much going on there? Unceremonial. So you didn't met meet Clint Murkison, Now, please, I didn't even know what they looked like. I really didn't. I didn't. All right, we went over time again, but it was well worth it. We might have to get Chris to be the fourth on our crew. Here there cut into Bill Shine. There

you go. Well we we uh, we appreciate it. And by the way, I didn't mention this earlier, but when we were playing D League adult hockey, this was the star defenseman on the team line. No, he we could put anybody out on his teeth. We got anybody else back there, We weren't pages anybody else could go back and play defense because Chris took care of everything. Yeah, so thanks a lot. Yeah, thanks a lot for doing it, Everson.

We'll see you next week. We'll see where Bill is with the NBA playoffs, if he's back with us or not. And we appreciate you guys joining us here on Dallas Cowboys dot Com. And that's it for Mick shots, Go Cowboys. This has been a production of Dallas Cowboys dot Com and the Dallas Cowboys Football Club.