There are very few moments as powerful as I've influenced this person and look how they're growing. Uh, they like they're beyond me
just because the organization has said, no. That doesn't mean you have to accept it.
If you're looking for some activities, what, yeah, I'm a servant leader, but what the hell does that look like? Sponsorship and advocacy, the way we described it. is step into that.
What I've learned is it's my responsibility to figure something out and to fight a little bit. when you run into a brick wall for something for your person, you are willing to figure out whatever you have to figure out to make something happen
be an advocate for goodness Entry music. Da da da da da. Da da da da da da. It's the Bob and Josh Show.
I don't believe there are enough good, healthy, strong advocates out there as leaders and today's episode. I want to punch that right in the mouth and make sure everybody, yeah, yeah, serious, everybody walks away fired up, ready to go, going to advocate for the superstars of their team, or maybe even themselves or their product or whatever it is. Today, we're going to give people tools and skills on how they can advocate because it's hard and sometimes it's scary.
go, Josh. You go advo couturi, couturi, that's, that's a plate, that's a plate full of beef and advocacy.
Yes, it is. We just made that up. Uh, that'll be in all your grocery stores this weekend
Why don't we,
with Bob's
why don't we define what, and I don't have a definition to teach you with, so we could explore it both ways, but what do we think advocacy is? What are components of advocacy? Uh, do you
Yeah. Let me start kind of on the opposite side of what, what I opened with of there's not enough of is I don't see enough times when a leader Hey, I got somebody good and they're a little frustrated and I know they can get more in the market and I want to keep them. And so they go, they talk to their boss, they talk to finance and they get the standard answer, which is the standard answer. And I understand. Yeah, sorry. It's, it's not that time of year. We do that once a year.
It's budgeted like this and you know, sorry, we're just going to have to wait, you know, go and go and really coach them up and make them feel loved and all that stuff. But you know, we can't help you out there. And those are moments when early in my career, I just kind of shrugged my shoulders like, eh, well, okay. I guess I'll go figure something out over the years. What I've learned is it's my responsibility to figure something out and to fight a little bit.
And there's tools and ways for you to do that. But I worked with various people that when they ran into those blockers, they just said, okay, cool. I'm going to try a different route and they would work around it. And that is. You know, scary, hard, uh, uncomfortable, maybe something you haven't done before. So that's the thing is that when, when you run into a brick wall for something for your person, you are willing to figure out whatever you have to figure out to make something happen. Oh,
that's like transactional or in the moment advocacy. Uh, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to yes. And it and say, uh, you shouldn't be waiting leaders. You should be waiting for that moment. So there's like, you know, you want to give someone a raise, they deserve it. You want to, so at that moment where it's raised time, you might jump out of your chair and run into the CFO's office and have a discussion or escalate it. You can, and I'm all into what Josh is saying, do that.
But that meets resistance a lot of the times because it's at the last minute. I'm putting forward, do that all the time. So like nine months ago, before you get into that moment, start talking about like, Hey, everyone, have you seen what Josh Anderson is doing? Josh Anderson is knocking it out of the park every day.
In fact, I gave him, I gave him a, an assignment last week that I thought he couldn't accomplish, uh, technically, because you know how poor his, his development skills are, uh, right. And, uh, and he knocked that out of the park. And so I keep. You know, not in an annoying fashion, but I keep weaving.
So in the, say I have a department of N number of people, I think I should be advocating for leaders in development, uh, technology leaders in development, uh, high flyers or high performing folks in development, almost continuously. Uh, and the advocacy isn't just on pay. It's, uh, giving them, giving them opportunities to shine. Right. And actually acknowledging that, right. I think it's not just not hoping that it shines, telling people that they shine, uh, emphasizing that they shine.
So Josh, I just, I augmented it. Any reactions to that?
Absolutely. Um, that's something that Again, I've evolved to over the years. And one of the tricks of the trade that I stole from a very dear friend of mine, Mr. Patrick miser, who I had a wonderful couple of years working with. We, we together, we're working very hard to establish. And we had gotten good in, um, like our regular, you know, group and team meetings of giving out kudos and encouraging others within the organization to give the kudos out.
But the thing that Patrick did that was next level was anytime we had a leadership meeting, we started that meeting off with everybody at the leadership table was going to go around and say, Hey, we're Did you know so and so did this and they talk about and and they give praise. Now the other thing that was really good was You couldn't talk about it unless you already had a discussion with that person and praise them for the actions that they did.
So you couldn't walk in with credit and say, Oh yeah, right. I forgot. Bob did a great thing and I'm going to, you know, I am going to go talk. No, like that wasn't even a part, like you couldn't even bring that up. So it was, you already said that was freaking amazing. To the, to that person. Now, this, this creates an opportunity for you to talk about those things and for the rest of the organization to see and hear about the wonderful and great things that are happening.
So that's a, that's a trick that you can put it in place. I bet if you were to offer that up to your boss or your leadership team or your peers or whatever it is, everybody would jump all over
I,
So that's a trick you can walk away with
yeah, I'd love, I'd love that idea. That's a fantastic idea. I think advocacy is. Um, and I don't have, uh, maybe you can come up with some examples, but it's like sharing. So I have cred as a leader and I think advocacy, so if everyone has less cred than me, it's, it's hard for the, you know, there's this hierarchy. So I think part of my advocacy is how do I share, there's the word privilege. So privilege, cred, and advocacy.
How do I, part of this is sharing it with others, uh, to build them up. Um, and, and I, I don't know, maybe take that away, Josh, if you think that is part of it,
Yeah. And I think that's part of the natural stance of a good leader that when things are going well, you should blend into the background and push everybody else towards the front. And then when things are going bad, you, you know, kind of put them behind you and you step out in front and use the gravitas and all the fancy words that Bob used there. But in those moments when things are going good, You as a leader have to do two things.
Number one, you have to step back and that's an action you have to take. If you don't take that action, it won't happen. So you have to step back. But also, it can't be like in those movies where you step back and that person kind of looks around like, Oh, I guess I stepped forward. No, you have to push folks towards the front and make sure people know and recognize and understand that The amazing work by this group of people that got us here.
So that's part of the job is stepping back and then shining a light. So those are, again, those are a couple more things that you can
you're right, that's a, that's a better metaphor for it. Is that step forward, step back. Uh, and I love the point of stuff. So it's protection as well, not throwing them, not throwing people to the wolves, uh, And, and doing that and having that confidence, having that. So I think there's two sides to this. There's the, uh, it's almost like mentoring and then, um, but then I'm putting folks forward. I'm being an advocate externally.
So mentoring to me is this private thing that I'm mentoring someone. I'm, I'm helping them grow. I'm guiding them. Uh, but then the advocacy part is in me stepping out when they're, if they're in the room or not and advocating for them.
Um, And, and, and sort of oscillating between those, those two things, but that private mentoring part, I think like you can do this and then externally giving them the opportunity to do that, uh, and coaching them and then, and then the other part of it is not just that, and then amplifying it to the people around and saying that that was excellent. Right. And it wasn't an accident.
There's mentoring and then there's, you know, sort of stepping back, stepping forward, and then there's the results, et cetera, and then cycling through on that. I don't know if you advocate for everyone. I don't know. I'm not trying to say don't like if I have a hundred people reporting to me. I, I don't like, if I have the advocacy train for a hundred people, I'm, I think it dilutes it maybe. So it's probably, I
and I've heard it a bajillion times, a million different ways. That's a lot. Um, is that most people spend 80 percent of the time on the 20 percent of the organization. That is the poorest performers. When in reality, what you should be doing is spending 80 percent of the time on the top 20 percent of your team and really accelerating that because the returns are so much higher and makes so much of a difference.
One, not only do you improve that person, but they also set the tone and as they improve, they're going to bring people with them. They are going to begin to mentor. They are going to begin to spread those things out. So you can't be everywhere and do everything. So you have to be. Intentional about growing people that will grow others. So that's a, that's a very key thing that when I'm.
When I'm looking at how to, how to grow a team and, and I'm educating folks about what it means to grow within our organization. It doesn't mean like if we're a bunch of developers, it doesn't mean you're a better developer. It means you're a good developer, but you make. This group around you better. And then the next step is you're a good developer, but then the sphere of influence that you have is grows and grows and grows.
So growing that number of people that affect your organization, that's where you have to focus. So you have to focus on that top 20 percent of your organization that, that can then carry the message forward and continue to spread it. Otherwise it's like an. Horribly daunting thing to try and be everywhere and do everything.
would agree. What part does, um, diversity play in it? And I'm thinking it, I'm not, it's not just a diversity play, but I think about women in technology. So I, when I'm doing advocacy, one of the thoughts I have is, you know, sort of raising folks from a diversity and inclusion perspective more than others. I'm not trying to say I'm biased. Uh, I'm just thoughtfully looking at it is like, you know, there's these characteristics in my organization.
And if we have, if I don't, if I think women are hitting a glass ceiling, either a technical glass ceiling or a leadership glass ceiling, uh, part of my advocacy is going to be aware of that. Maybe, maybe not just women, but disruptors. And, uh, you know, advocating for the introverts, uh, advocating for folks, neurodiversity, folks, uh, things like that. Uh, do you, do you think about that? Like a small part, does that come into play for you?
Yeah, you and I have both been down the path where we've had the opportunity to learn the value of diversity across the board that it makes in all walks of life, specifically when you're building a team. So I've had to advocate there. There's a person, uh, Beth, I hired Beth maybe a decade ago and I knew she was going to be good. I knew it. But she didn't have a degree. And so the VP that I was working for was like, Nope, we don't hire anybody like that.
So it took me about a month of fighting for me to have the opportunity to hire her and like prove people wrong that, Hey, Sure. It's nice to have a degree. That's great, but that's not the only qualifier. You can be a great member of our team without that and continue to grow and continue to build that brand where we just hire great people. And if you have that check Mark, cool, but that's not a thing that required that's required of you to walk in the door. And so.
As time evolved, what was interesting was through that, I, I was able to get to a point where the best team that we had built only 25 percent of that team had a degree in computer science. The other 75 percent didn't have a degree at all, or they had a degree in one had like astrophysics, one was a lit major, things like that. So I was able to break that barrier within the organization and prove that, Hey, We don't have to pull exactly from this mold for us to be great.
But that, but that was a solid month of me fighting to have the opportunity to hire someone that I knew was going to be good. They just needed a freaking
Yep. I think of two inhibitors as you were talking, I think of two, what are things that prevent leaders? So if this is easy stuff, right? And you know, is everyone doing and I would say, no, there's not a lot of it. Well, what are some of the, you know, the hurdles? And I would, one to me is taking time. It's, it's taking time and it's actually taking the lens off of you. And off of business results and putting it on other people or business outcomes, right?
Projects and products and things like that. Uh, the other thing is, I think it takes, it's, it's risky. Because what if it, you're, you're putting some of your, you've earned it. So every leader has earned their, their stripes, their, you know, the view, their perception of the organization. And when you are advocating for someone else, you're taking something from you and saying, I believe in, Oh, this is man. I can feel the risk rising in my, in my
this is risky.
and I'm, I'm taking some of Bob Galen and I'm giving it to Josh Anderson and saying, here I'm, I'm behind him. I believe in him and, and in my mind now that I could lose that I could lose that investment. I know I won't cause Josh rocks, but there is that little, you know, sort of bit of doubt. And so what, that's what I'm saying is that effort is a factor. And I think maybe risk aversion, it's easier just to, you know, focus elsewhere. What do you think?
a third thing that was the biggest hurdle for me was. There are no rules. One of the things, so you and I both worked for Gonzalo and he was challenging to work for at times, but the one thing that he taught me was that just because the organization has said, no. That doesn't mean you have to accept it. And so he, he was really good at himself, finding workarounds that worked and proving himself right and getting to that same, same thing.
So once I saw that, that triggered a thing in my mind because I was a rule followers, like, Oh, well, that's the rule. That's what we do. So I'm going to stay in line and yeah, that's not it. But then I saw, wait a minute, if I really believe in this. I need to find a way to make that happen. Like that's my job. I've been hired to make this organization
yep,
and better might mean different and different is risky, which Bob just talked about, but also different is an uncharted path. So you have to be willing to figure out what that Path looks like and chart it yourself, which is scary in and of itself, but that's a, that's a challenge. I just like, I never even thought of until I started to see it happen. And people that I saw winning within their roles. I'm like, Oh, wait a minute.
So they ran up against that and they just rejected the fact that they were rejected. It's like, Nope, I'm not going to take that. I'm going to find a way to make this work. So then that flipped a switch in my brain and the wheel started turning up. Okay. Okay. So how can I solve that? And that helped me be more bold and more confident that when I ran into that brick wall, I'm like, okay, cool. Maybe I'll, maybe I'll find a way around this wall.
So just the opportunity to even think like that was something that I didn't have for the first 60 percent of my career, probably.
You said something earlier. I want to just come back. You were a rule follower. I, I, I didn't know you then because
no,
did not, because when I think of Josh, I do not think of rule follower, right? You're a, you're a rule breaker. So there, so there was a pivot point at some point there. I want to, I want to switch gears a little bit.
Um, and I want to hear your take, so I think my boss should be advocating for me or at least, so it's, what are we doing to advocate for folks that report to us, but I think there's a conversation, you know, to be had with whoever you report to, to say, not to demand it, but to sensitize them to, I need your advocacy, you Uh, you know, kudos to me in a room are nice, particularly a senior leader. Let's say you're the CTO of an organization, Josh. And so you report to the CEO.
Uh, so the CEO telling you you're doing great work is fantastic. But that's just privately to you, the CTO popping into a team meeting that you have and saying that you're fantastic is in that purview, but a CTO, a CEO advocating for you and talking about you organizationally is different. And it makes, I think it makes a difference. So I'm wondering, uh, and it's not that you demand them. But maybe, you know, sort of subtly coach them that I need your help, right?
I need your help to give me a purview outside of this organization. React to that. Any, anything around that?
Yeah. I think there's a handful of pieces that go along with that. Number one, having a clarity of where you're trying to go and the things you're looking to grow into and educating your boss with that and and doing exactly what Bob said of. I could really use your help to make this happen. This is, this is what I'm trying to do. These are the things I'm trying to make happen. And I know I can't make it happen on my own.
I'm going to do my darndest, but if there's anything along the way that you can help with, so number one, just making them aware of those things, that that is step number one. Step number two is a similar problem I see in the product realm is. People expect the organization to know where the product's going, yet the product organization has not done a good job socializing exactly what the product is and where it's going.
So they just expect people to intuit that they know that, oh, if it's on a wiki page or a confluence page, if there's a roadmap, they know it. No, that's not your job. It is your job to put it in the brain of the organization of this is what our product is. This is where we're going. So it is equally on you to put it in the brain of your boss and the rest of the organization of this is where I'm going. This is what I'm doing. This is what's happening.
Don't wait for somebody to shine a light on it because that might never happen. So you have to take, take charge. So those are, those are two out. Often very uncomfortable things that people wrestle with one is establishing clarity on this is where I want to go. And then asking for help. That's an uncomfortable thing, especially when you're asking your boss for help. There are some people that were raised in different worlds. Bob and I were raised like this. So we kind of Broke out of it.
I've like you don't ask for help. It's your job to like muscle through it and figure it out. And, you know, just, you know, stop whining. It's not whining. You're just stating the fact in the direction of the intent and you're getting some help. The second is talking about yourself. There's a lot of people that are really uncomfortable with talking about you. themselves. Again, it's a cultural thing. They feel like they're bragging or they're just uncomfortable with the whole thing.
That's a, no, you don't attach it to yourself. So detach it from yourself and just highlight the work that is being done. The things that are being achieved. Yes, you made them happen, but detach yourself from that. I
and everyone sit down and grab a, grab a drink and a cigar, cause this is going to take a while. Let me talk like, no, I'm just, I could, I could go on and on and on.
was ready to see exactly Bob, Bob struggles with that.
Yeah, I, I do. I, I, every it's well, it's not, not everyone, you, you know, there are, there are, there are other folks and they're not bad that they do not struggle with that and they enjoy it. Uh, what was I going to say?
There's a, I'm going to include a link in the description with a video. I think it's a TEDx talk. By I forget her name. She's a musician. She's Neil Gaiman's wife. Um, where she talks about learning how to ask for help and learning how to ask for support and the mental challenge that that presents, but the value that that creates for you and the ecosystem that is around you. Um, she just addresses, Hey, I understand this is hard. I've been through it. Here's how I wrestled with it.
Here's How I fought through it. And here's what the outcomes are. So that's a thing that I think can really help people again. I am not an expert at that. I'm saying you should do it, but here's someone that can help you actually make
Very cool. When, when Josh and I were talking about this episode earlier today, I brought up the term sponsorship. And then we turned it into advocacy, which is, which is, uh, it resonates, it resonated with Josh more, but I want to come back to sponsorship because I think it implies maybe something different. So to me, advocacy is this sort of tactical or transactional thing. I advocate for Josh, I advocate for more money.
I have a. Position here, but when I think of sponsorship, it's a longer term. I'm going to spot, I'm the sponsor for Josh Anderson. I'm advocating along the way. So I have a sponsorship commitment. I don't sponsor everyone. Uh, uh, maybe another old term for me is, is taking someone under your wing. If you've ever heard that, that explain, I'm going to take someone under my wing. Uh, that's mentoring.
But there's also a sponsorship aspect, a longer term aspect, and then, and then continued advocacy along the way, continued development. Uh, so that's, uh, I think that's a part of leaders. You're doing the transactional thing, but, but connecting the dots, really sponsoring someone in their career. Uh, and, and the longer term it is, the more risk you're, I mean, you're taking a longer term risk. Any, any reactions to that distinction, Josh?
Well, I mean, you, if you want a example of risk, look at Bob sponsoring me for the past 15 years. Like that's a, that's a, that's a risky thing. We understand how I have drug him down, but he's fought through like a phoenix
what, that's actually not true in all, in all, so I do think that you and I have this relationship to some degree, but I was just thinking about you as you were talking maybe five minutes ago, and I was thinking about how you've changed and grown over time.
In, in such a wide variety of it, professionally, personally, in a wide variety of areas and inside I was smiling, uh, and, and, you know, just sort of like watching someone grow and, and leaders, that's, that's part of how, how do I know if I'm getting it? How do I know if I'm getting the balance right?
And it's hard, it's, you have these, these epiphanies of these moments where you're like, you're not, I don't know if you're proud, you're proud of someone, and you're proud of your, the role that you played. But you're, but you're more proud of the person. Uh, and, and that's the kind of feeling you want as a leader. I don't know. There's very few, unless you get a million dollar bonus, maybe that's a moment.
There are very few moments as powerful as I've influenced this person and look how they're growing. Uh, they like they're beyond me. I ac I actually love it when folks, when I, when I see folks, it's a little scary and it's a little humbling to me, and, but, but it's like, wow, they're, they've grown beyond me and, and they still tolerate me. And how cool is that?
Yeah. That's, that, that's the, that's the long game. And that, and that is the thing that, um, whatever feeling and provides within you, that's the, That's the reward for all of that risk is you, you understand that you've played a small part in helping someone achieve a goal that they've had. And I know, like I'll speak for Bob and I, Bob and I, those are the things that really drive us. So that's a thing that the leaders that we are, that's what we're trying to do.
We're trying to find people that we can support along the way like that. And then we're trying like heck to help the people that were already sponsoring along the way to continue along their path. And. Get and get to that point. Like I just went to lunch with, with, uh, with someone that's in this realm like that a couple of weeks ago and I was asking him for help. I was saying, okay, cool. So here's the thing I'm trying to do. would you do?
You know, and if you flip the clock back a decade, that was the other way around, but now it's okay, cool. You have grown and blossomed, become this amazing thing, you know, way more than I do on this stuff. So when I get stuck, I call Stu. And Stu sits down and has a burrito with me and, you know, it's like kind of corrects me on some of these things that I'm talking about.
So, but that, but that has been a relationship that we've built over the years of, um, me sponsoring him and investing in him, even when at times he didn't want it, you know, uh, but I felt it was, it was the right thing for him. So I had to be that guy. Um, but yeah, so those are, to me, that's why you do stuff like this. Um, and it's hard to describe is hard to define, like I'm struggling to put words around it, but that's that, that's that feeling of pride, I guess, is the, is the appropriate
It's pride, it's rewarding. It's, it's, I mean, not for everyone, but, but for, I, I'm not putting this up at a pedestal or anything, but you know. The why I lead or the why I do what I do. One of the reasons for that is to, is to see what happens to other people, right? Is to, is to help other folks. Uh, and, and this is part of this sponsorship and advocacy as a leader is part of that. I think the entry is you have to be humble. You have to be selfless.
You have to, you know, be building organizations. If it's all about you, you're you've listened. If you've listened to this episode, you've probably been bored or you're like, what the hell are these guys smoking? Right.
I already
Right. That you turned it off. Uh, if it's so, but if it's not about you. And you really are in this servant leadership mindset, then step into this. If you're looking for some activities, what, yeah, I'm a servant leader, but what the hell does that look like? Sponsorship and advocacy, the way we described it. And Josh came up with some good ideas for practice, uh, is step into that. Uh, and then it takes some time to take the, to see the rewards. Go ahead, Josh.
Yeah. So what I would challenge you to do is think about. Ideas you can put in place like the first part of meetings I talked about with the leadership team where you start to create a culture that advocates for each other and start to make that a thing. So again, we we've talked about being inclusive. Intentional with culture shaping. This is one of those things where you're going to have to get out in front of it.
And you're going to, you're going to have to work pretty hard to force this to happen because it's uncomfortable for all the reasons that Bob and I talked about. There's risk that is out there. There's, there's a handful of things where it's just kind of scary and risky and uncomfortable for people. So you're going to have to. Coach and model and shape that to get that to become a thing. But that's a snowball thing that once it starts going, only good stuff happens.
So put in the work to help create that. And it will continue to make a huge difference within your organization.
I'll give you a measurement for your advocacy, and maybe we can wrap this way, like how to measure. Am I doing a good job? So I would say there's two venues that I've been a part of one. Josh alluded to, I'm trying to promote someone and I find that the point of promotion, like I'm getting pushback. are you talking about? Josh Anderson? I mean, it's, I don't even know if he's here.
Uh, all, you know, all I do, there's a big head that walks around, but other than that, I don't, I don't know anything about him. So I haven't, I haven't, that's an indication that you've not done a good job. Right? Another indication. I don't know if this happens nowadays. I hope it doesn't. But I used to go in EMC. I'll pick on EMC, uh, who, uh, they were, I worked there as a leader and annually we had to get in and we had curves
Oh
we had these curves and there was this philosophy of getting rid of the bottom 20%. So we got all the managers got into this dark room and we had our spreadsheets and we had to defend. People and it sucked. I hated God. I hated this, right? But, but you had to defend people. Well, if you get into that dark room, if you have to do that sort of things annually, and I, I think organizations still sort of do this, uh, you shouldn't have to talk much about your people.
In fact, in fact, you should hear from the audience, Bob Galen, fire him. Bob, you don't, we don't have, we know where Bob is. Right. And in fact, if you're doing what Josh alluded to earlier at a leadership level, you're, you're advocating constantly, then you shouldn't even have to talk in that, and if you have to explain a lot, you're not doing enough. Right. If you have to fight for someone. Who's, who's like really a rockstar, then you're not advocating enough.
So promotions, and I don't know what to call it. These annualized team review things, uh, the dynamics of that can give you a real good indication of how well you're doing and then, and then change the bar.
Let's wrap it. Let's
All right. So from beautiful, from beautiful downtown Cary, North Carolina, I'm
and beautiful downtown Fuquay Verena, North Carolina. And I'm Josh Anderson
take care of y'all and be an advocate for goodness sakes.