Welcome to messy but essential. I'm Rod Stillwell. And this is the podcast about the people side of project leadership. It's where we help you improve your soft skills to reduce hard costs. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about the importance of knowing each other, understanding a lot more about who's on your team, both from a professional perspective and a
personal perspective. Joining me in the studio today is my brother Dale, who is also my business partner and comes with a wealth of extensive project leadership and experience around the world Eleazar engineer and the producer of today's episode, before we jump into it, though, let's talk a little bit about
safety. One of the big challenges as we're now facing in Canada, moving into spring, is road conditions, potholes, if you live in a part of the country that doesn't do its road maintenance, perhaps as well as it could. And even just the change between, you know, an overnight lower temperature, for instance, and a melting during the day, which creates potential ice pack, patches and that type
of thing. So I just want to remind you to everybody out there that, you know, if you're in a part of the world that has changing seasons, paying attention to the fact that it's going to create other safety issues is something to, to keep in mind. So let's look at the importance of understanding who is on our team, what they bring to the table. And why what they bring to the table is so
important to the team. So my experience over the last couple of months, as I've been doing a lot of workshops with projects around alignment and getting to know each other and maybe launching a project is that we don't know each other as well as we could. And certainly as we come out of a pandemic, where we've done a lot of zoom or teams or Google meets calls or whatever, a lot of virtual calling. We've got to see perhaps some insights into
people. Yep. Right. You know, the cat goes by you're the kid in the background or that type of thing. But at the same time with fake backgrounds, and all these things, we've also created this kind of persona of invisibility, almost so you see my face, but that's all you get to know about me.
Yeah. And also, we're like, you know, how many people are having just catch up chat calls as opposed to actual meetings? Right? Right. Those are different dynamics.
And in fact, that's a really good point, I think, because when we look at it from the perspective of the, when we work together, in a space, sort of thing, we would pop our head into somebody's office or cubicle chat for a couple of minutes, grab a coffee together, etc. But that ultimately has changed. So you know, my experience over the last two years has been that every meeting is a lot more official, now it's a lot more, you have to schedule it, you have to book it, it shows up in your
calendar, and so on. So that kind of spontaneous relationship isn't there. And as a result, we tend to get into that subject matter quicker, because we don't have that while we walked into the room. And while we're waiting for things to happen, we get to know each other a little bit more. So I want to look today at some of the ways that we can get to know each other a little bit better and why that's important. So talk to me from a project perspective deal and
your experience. What gets in the way of getting to know each other better?
Well, I think part of it is, is the kind of the dynamic we've just talked about, right? There's a difference between a meeting and working together and being in some other headspace, right? We we don't, you know, we tend to put ourselves into certain focus, when we're in certain spaces, we're not going to talk about certain things in certain contexts, etc. So creating, having those opportunities that don't have those some of those psychological restrictions around them, makes a big
difference. You know, I get a lot of international projects. And one of the things that we always did, partly because of that was we had a kickoff meeting more meetings. So everybody would get together in
one physical space. You know, we'd start the meetings, we kick off the project, we'd go through all the background, everybody get the same updates, etc, etc. But the most valuable part of that to me was always dinner afterwards, right, or lunch break, or coffee breaks or whatever, because those were the chances where you actually got to chat with people and learn more about them and dinner and you know, drinks afterwards, whether that's alcohol or not,
doesn't matter. The that relaxed atmosphere was the times when you got to hear people's stories when people told you about their hobbies, when, you know, they talked more about what was going on in their lives, etc. And not everybody opens up the same way. But you almost always got to hear a little bit more about people who they were than just that work thing. If you were in those, the right social sector,
yeah, I think that's a really important distinction that it was those more casual settings. So be that dinner, be that lunchtime, whatever. That allowed us that give us permission, in a sense, to go beyond the just the work conversation. So I think one of the challenges that we've seen in the last couple of years and it projects face in general, is that we we're often assigned to a project or assigned to a task,
or we're part of a team. And we come in with some level of credibility because of the profession we have with the role we've been assigned to. And as a result, we don't really probe to understand the bigger context of
people's lives. So things for instance, like, you know, if you grew up as a, you know, a kid whose parents were in the military, and you moved from base to base all around the world, even though you, you know, as a kid growing up may have found the constant change of schools and that type of thing, to be a real irritant. What it did for you was, it gave you some social skills in terms of very quickly ramping up in developing relationships, and so
on. So knowing that, for instance, about someone knowing that their background, maybe a military background, or maybe a, you know, a long term, corporate role, or whatever that might be, enhances not only the relationship, but it also helps us to understand what you bring
to the project. Yeah. And I think, you know, when we're looking overall, in this, this world of instant knowledge, you know, Google things or whatever, we can find out an awful lot about somebody, but never as much as when we sit down and have a conversation. So interestingly, you know, one of the tools that I use is what's called a structured paired interview. And it's really just a bunch of starter questions.
You know, what I like most about my job is or what attracted me to work on this project is, or those types of things and then the show notes will, we'll put in a number of key questions that you can ask. But along with that comes that back and forth, where we now start comparing our experiences. And what I've discovered over the years is that when we find that one thing we have in common, now the relationship starts to go a lot.
Yeah, for sure. So it might be that we both worked on projects in, you know, Brisbane, Australia, or that we both, you know, have have worked with projects that had a high risk attached to them, or whatever that might be an eye witness, it seems to be that we need to find that common ground. Or it could be as simple as we were both raised by our grandparents, because our parents were, for whatever reason, not able to raise that so raised by a
another family, man. Those are the things that link us and then often start creating the platform for having deeper dialogue for understanding each other more.
And I, I found for me, personally, it there was a certain sort of it allowed me when things got particularly stressful or irritating. And the person was, you know, part of that irritation at that moment, for whatever reason. It there was always something different if I knew if I felt I knew them better if I knew that they like to ski. There was just you just you just gave that extra little bit of slack. And it allowed you to, I think maybe change how you viewed things pause for a moment
in your judgment. Right? It just there was other things going on in your head that just allows you to provide instead of this to personalize this human being and that just means that you looked at the situation
differently. And you can you could take any breath and shrug off something that in other situations you might not have you could laugh off something you could especially if there was style or cultural differences, you know, working with people from all kinds of different parts of the world.
Sometimes you would find that people from certain areas would never say in a meeting what they really felt, you know, I remember there's one conversation we've got, we got out of this meeting and somebody said, Oh, I thought that went really well, you know, they excelled. I said, I don't think they're on board. And he was like, Well, no, are we asked the question, and he didn't say no. And I'm like, Yeah, but I was watching his face, I'm pretty
sure he's not on board. But he wouldn't have said that outright in the meeting, right? You know, certain things like that, like some of those cultural differences, I think if you, it can be easy to forget that we're all people. And at the end, you know, it comes right down to it, we all have the same things going on, we have, you know, we love things, we things drive us nuts, we behave in certain ways.
So just that personalization, that fact that he, instead of thinking about you as some whatever, a problem, a blocker or whatever, just the fact that I can now focus on you as being a human being totally changes my perception, and allows me to kind of give you some slack that I wouldn't otherwise give you.
I think that's a really important aspect, that being able to cut people some slack, being able to allow that, even though in this particular situation, I am finding your response, whatever, irritating. I can temper my frustration, by knowing that we share certain things in common. That could be a sports team, right, or a love of a specific sports, your specific author, or musician or whatever. But again, if we don't take the time to explore and find that out, we never get
those benefits. So part of my challenge, often to project not just project managers, but members on the teacher is to take advantage of every possible opportunity to get to know your teammates on a deeper level. So Keith Ferrazzi, has a wonderful book, I think it's good for us.
And we can check that out and in the show notes, but never eat alone, you know, with a message is no matter even if it's just grabbing, you know, a coffee and something sweet or whatever, don't do it alone, being able to use that, take advantage of that those couple of minutes to deepen a relationship, which is one of the reasons why we you know, I talked about those structured interviews, it kind of sounds like while we're making, building the relationship into a science, but
the fact is, we all need guidelines for the types of questions that would be effective, etc. And which questions that won't resonate with us. So don't ask them, you know, so for one of the ones that I love to know, for instance, is where do people grow up? What's what's special about the town, or area that they grew up in? What was special when they were growing up in it, and maybe it's changed
today. You know, I grew up in a small suburb, and had lots of friends and went to school, etc. But it's also a suburb that had had a horrific train accident, when I was about eight years old that had, you know, I don't know, 15 or 20 Teenagers on the way to a dance who were killed in a train, and bus accident, that in for many, many years, colored the relationships, the challenges the culture, etc, in that little town, and had people you know, in some ways, we got to know each other more through
our grief growing up, and we all knew somebody who was on that bus. Right? Or conversely, you know, it may be as I say that within the team, we went to the same university or had some of the similar professors. Do you remember that course on anthropology, whatever it might be, we
both worked for somebody, you know, the same boss at one point, or we both worked in the same department at one point or, you know, even if those were years apart, we might still like we have connections, we have things exactly. And you know, I think your point about descriptiveness of some of that stuff. If you happen to be one of those people who does that naturally. For whom that just
comes naturally. You always meet with people at lunch or breakfast, you you know, you're the one that people open up to at the watercooler. You're the whatever, whatever. If you just have any one of those people great. You probably don't need a scripted process for this. You probably don't even realize you do it. Right. You just do it.
But if you're not, you know if this isn't one of those things that does come naturally to you, then having at least something that forces you to focus on it something that brings you back to saying okay, I know I need to intentionally go after this. You know that that there's a good reason for To build this relationship, and it's not that I don't want to build it, it's just that I wouldn't naturally think about building it. Right?
So how do I use whatever tools work for me to force me to do some of that?
Absolutely. And I'm gonna go one step further and say, many of us, certainly I am guilty of doing more talking than listening. You know, I don't know whether mom ever made the statement to you. But she did to me at some point in my life, that I was, you know, blessed with two ears and one mouth, and it was probably a better proportion than how I was
using them. So that ability to stop and listen, to ask the question to probe effectively, and then to listen, and it doesn't mean you take out a notebook and you're starting to
take notes on people. It's literally just allowing the conversation to flow in a way that you're playing a good greater listening role, and really hearing what people have to say, I think I'd add to that the fact that we don't always have to have a, an experience that matches all absolution with whom we're speaking, that we don't always have to best them. Oh, yeah, you grew up with five kids, I grew up with seven, you
know, that kind of thing. Sure. And I think sometimes we probably all know people who always have to have the last word or have that one, you know, one story better sort of thing. And, you know, what I'm looking at in terms of projects, and when we talk about these relationships, is listening and celebrating who the other individual is what they bring to the table. And then I think I'd
add to that. So how does that link to making them me a better project member, project team member, you know, how can we leverage those experiences. So I started out by talking about military experience traveling all over the world, well, being used to building relationships quickly, or perhaps the converse, you know, learning how to be wary of people trust, that
type of thing. So when I look at our project success over the years, certainly projects where people knew each other more understood, and I mean, not just, you know, we're not talking personal intimate details, here, we're talking, understanding what you bring to the table, understanding that part of what you bring to the table is, you know, the struggles with kids at home, you've got teenagers, you've got a mother in law, you've got brand new baby, whatever it might be things that could allow
us to resonate with each other. And it was in that creating that resonance that we ended up having more trust with each other for holding each other accountable, more comfortably, having those tough conversations that that confrontation, when we didn't quite agree, that's very hard to do, if we haven't established a strong relationship.
Yeah, and, you know, ultimately, projects are run by teams, you know, very few projects aren't moving, if you've got a certain individual, almost all projects are team members. And the more we can get the best out of every team member, the more likely the project is to be successful. Right. So it's no different than then, you know, you had that leadership concept as a if you have employees, but, you know, your job is to ensure that nothing gets in the way of them
doing their jobs. Right. You know, as one kind of content. That's, that's true within projects, too, the more the people who work on our projects are, are able to bring their skills to the project, the better the project results going to be. Agreed, right. And so some of that is, is going to be influenced by those knowing people better. Right? Things that skills you might either overlook, and therefore not get the benefit of or take the wrong
way. And you know, or you're asking for something that isn't really best for that, you know,
easiest for that person. You know, so for example, that I mean, there's people who are more comfortable in the morning and people are more comfortable in the afternoon, right people who like details and want all the information upfront and people who want the big picture, whatever those differences are, being able to work with people in a way that makes them most effective ultimately pays off for the whole project.
Totally agree and it becomes an asset in the sense that as we connect so for instance, means being, let's say, understanding that somebody loves playing a high impact sport, hockey, football, that type of thing. And, or, or just loves that, that game. And then
relating that to PPE. And, you know, challenges with getting people on the team to, you know, to wear effective personal protective equipment, be knowing that somebody likes hockey and then being able to comment on helmets and or shoulder pads or whatever, to be able to make that relationship between the two. Or even just in terms of like you said, morning, or afternoon person analytical versus more task driven versus more people driven, that type of
thing. Again, it enhances by enhancing our relationship and the depth of knowledge of each other. We were able to move through some of the conversations that we have to have more easily because we have those links. John Maxwell, one of my favorite leadership authors, talks about a wonderful story of a, an administrative executive assistant, who had two different coffee cups on her desk, and one was green, and one
was read. And he wondered what that was all about, you know, is this Christmas colors or what? And he asked me one day, and she said, Well, it's because when the CEO is in a good mood, I'm drinking out of my green mug. And when he's in a difficult mood, and you really don't want to be talking to him, today, I'm drinking out of my red mug. So I'm just sending a message to the whole team to let them know, kind of what mood the boss is in. And apart from the humor of
it all. It was just communicating and getting to know each other and using that information to help in a relationship.
Well, that's interesting, you bring that up, because, you know, not obviously, not always, but in my experience, I've met a lot of really, really good administrative assistants. And one of the things about a lot of those administrative assistants was that they knew everybody, and they knew lots of things about everybody thinks that their boss never would know.
Because for whatever reason, it didn't, you know, but but that often was a common element with those people is they had a greater understanding of all the people around and use that, for the benefit of whoever they were the assistant to. I think that was an interesting, I hadn't thought of it that way. But when you mentioned that administrators, I started to think back and I thought, you know, they were very connected. But the ones that were really,
really good. Were often just very connected to the people.
So we should wrap this up with a hats off to those people. Because you're absolutely right, they often lubricant that keeps things going within a team. And, and we don't necessarily think
about them. So you know, if you're listening to this, and you have an executive assistant to an administrative assistant, as part of your team, make a point of thanking her point of have and getting to know him or her because you can be either obviously, and incredible things you can learn from that individual, and that they are as critical to the team's success as anybody else, the cost controllers manager or the engineers or whatever. And that's a really good place to
wrap this up. Recognizing taking a moment to, to acknowledge that that individual brings a very different level of skill and relationship building to the team. They'll as always, it's great to look at some of these things from a different perspectives. And our goal as always, is to help project managers connect better in order to make their projects more successful. Relationship building is a soft skill, but it's hard to do. So thanks for your input. Thanks to Allah for
engineering this today. And we wish each and every one of you out there successful projects and success at building deeper relationships.
That's a wrap. That's a wrap. Excellent.