Welcome to messy but essential. I'm Ron Stillwell. And this is the podcast about the people side of project leadership. It's where we help you improve your soft skills to reduce hard costs. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about a worldwide challenge that has emerged somewhat since the COVID 19 pandemic. And that's keeping or retaining key talent. Before we do, though, let's just talk a little bit about some safety. COVID lessons abound, we learned
a lot about health and safety. I read a meme at one boy saw meme at one point to talk about, you know, us believing by now we would be in flying cars. But in fact, in 2020, we all learn how to wash our hands. Safety and Health lessons are easily forgotten, though, as we move out of the pandemic crisis if you wish, and get back into some form of day to day life. And so my message today includes the fact that let's not lose what we learned through COVID-19. And safety. Let's make sure we keep
washing those hands. Maybe instead of shaking hands, we are bumping face to bumping elbows, those types of types of things that do help keep us healthy. Joining me today in studio is my brother Dale, who's my business partner, and comes with extensive project experience around the world. And Ella is our engineer and producer today. So let's jump into understanding this really dilemma that businesses are facing around holding on to keeping retaining
talented employees. And I work with a lot of clients who are very focused on recruiting and hiring. And certainly in parts of the world that I mean, I see lots of ads for we're hiring, looking through people, et cetera. But we don't talk as much about what are we doing to hang on to the people we do have. And even though it sounds like a new problem, the reality is we've had to retain employees
forever. So today, I want to talk of course in within the project world, but you know, the beauty of having a project team that stays together from beginning to end of a project. And we're recognizing that that's not always possible as a result of certain skill sets that may be needed on another project, more that type of
survey. But ultimately, when we look at it, you know, when we watch television sitcoms that have gone through 15 seasons with the same set of actors, etc. That's part of what build that built that the success if you wish of that franchise for that brand. And it was being able to hold on to those people. So I want to talk a little bit, there's lots of data and stats that we could throw in and we'll put it in the in the show notes, a couple of tables, if you wish around importance of certain
things. But today, I really want to look at when we're managing leading a project. And we want to make sure that we keep the people we have, what are some of the key things that we need to be doing, we need to remember. And I I raise this because these truly are those messy people issues. Right, the concrete cures, we have recipes for that the steel, you know, does its job, we have recipes for that all of those types of things. Alright. But people are messy. So let's talk a little bit about
that. Where have you experienced challenges with hanging on to good people? What are some of the things that have happened within your project? Well, Dale, there were good people have found something even better, ostensibly. Sure.
Well, so I mean, obviously, as a project manager, you're coming out a little bit differently, because you don't there's certain aspects of the whole employment process, you don't have in your control. Correct, right. So you can't, if salary is an issue, there's nothing you can do about that, as a branch manager, you don't set so. Right. You've got those resources from somewhere else.
So you, you know, there's, you're gonna have to assume to a certain extent that those things are already handled that somebody else has already taken care of those and we don't have an issue with those. I think part of one of the things that as a project manager that sometimes get overlooked gets overlooked in that is I think you need to be honest with yourself around. Do you really need this resource still?
Because, you know, I think the reason why our resources go Need to leave the project for the most part, and stay within the organization. So let's assume these are all coming from within an organization. All right? Is because either they don't feel like they're needed anymore, or the work they're doing is as interesting or as whatever, they reached a point where this is no longer kind of what they signed
on for. And so they start going and looking for some other project to move on to or their management structure comes to that conclusion and says, Oh, look, we've got a, an opportunity over here, though, I mean, this person for and I look at the current project, and I go, Okay, well, I think they've pretty much wind that down, somebody else can take that over, we put taken as reserves to put them on something else.
So that tends to be the types of dynamics that that that move resources on on a project, as opposed to, you know, in a company or
whatever, more during the corporate life.
So I think one of the things is, as a branch manager, you need to be honest. And while there might be a temptation to hold on to resources that you really like, but don't really need, that's probably not a fair.
That's a really interesting concept. Yep.
And so can you have that bigger view of saying, Okay, we're starting to get to this point where this resource is now no longer really the resource for this, maybe we need to have a conversation with that person. And with that person's organization that says, you know, hey, I'm coming to you now, both of you to say, I understand we're moving into these phases with this may be less interesting for you, I still want you in the project.
But if there's another opportunity that you want, and you can get me a resource that is now appropriate to the new level of whatever, I totally get it. That that's the right thing to do. Let's do that.
So that's a really, I think that's a very important concept. And it it's almost the antithesis of the corporate retention challenge, right. So when we look at things like Jim Collins seminal work in Good to Great, where he talks about getting the right person on the bus, and then in the right seat, in other words, start with finding a great person, and then find something for them to do or how do they fit within your
organization. This is really saying, part of my job as a project leader is a to make sure that I have the right fit to purpose resource for the job that I have to do. But be liberating allowing my, the members of that team to move on to other more challenging, interesting beneficial projects, when really my need for them, could be met by someone with lesser skills, less experience, whatever. So that's what I like about that. And I had not
thought about that. I mean, for those of you listening, we don't have a whole bunch of notes that we're going over here. This is truly a dynamic process in the sense of that conversation. But it does talk to the leader full ability to say, if I truly care about my people. I put selfish needs aside, because the need might be an eagle one I like having Susan or Bob, or, you know, Imad, with me. We're a great team. Yeah. But in fact, you mad could be beneficial somewhere else even more to the
organization. So in a sense, the retention becomes keeping them engaged within the bigger business. Because you've allowed them to fulfill their destiny, yes, not just meeting yours. So that's a really, I like I like that as a leadership concept.
Because it says, I'm prepared to, you know, put up with some of the inconvenience of having a new person doing this job, etc, etc. In order to make room for this other talented person to go on to other things to be, you know, going home more fulfilled every night themselves than they would be on my budget. That's an interesting take on retention, as well. And I
think, you know, I don't want to make it sound totally altruistic, necessarily, either. Because I think if, if you're able to kind of take a more long term view like that, or a bigger picture view, as a project manager, and as a project manager, it's very easy to get heads down into my thing, project, and never take those steps back. So I'm not saying
it's an easy thing to do. But if you are able to do that, as part of your career as a project manager, I can pretty much guarantee you're going to get that reputation and you're going to get better projects, and you're going to get better resources from those organizations. You're going to pull forward Because if if I'm the engineering manager, and you come to me and say, I've got this project a, I know, oh, you've got that project, it's
probably a good project. And B, if I give you a resource, you're not going to hold on to them pass the time you need them. I know you have that reputation, I'm a lot more interested in giving you that resource.
So that's a really insightful distinction between management and leadership. So I look at management as often that heads down, not management in terms of a category, but rather, we would manage manage the act of managing a we, we manage budgets, and we manage plans and schedules and those types of things. And in that sense, our head is down, we're, we're very focused on it, that's necessary. That's not absolutely and they
coexist. But what we're talking about, of course, in this podcast is project leadership. And that leader full behavior that allows happen exactly what you described, my reputation as a leader gets built by the fact that I am not holding on to resources, needlessly, I do get the more attractive projects
because I get better people. You know, when I was growing up, there was a hotdog or sausage company that said, you know, the more people eat them, the fresher they are, the fresher they are, because more people eat them sort of thing. So same kind of concept within, you know, I'm getting better people because I'm offering a better project, I'm offering a better project, I get better, I get to manage and lead better project because of how I manage the
people within them. And I think, in today's economy and in, in a world where you can find out about jobs anywhere else in the world. You know, COVID-19 taught us that a lot of our work can be done virtually, obviously, we're struggling with hybrid versus all those other things. But at the end of the day, you know, we have discovered that the world is a lot flatter, thanks to an ability to connect virtually,
and so on. It is a struggle to make sure that we keep people engaged, feeling productive, inspired, and I'm going to use that term and in a very positive, upbeat sense to take on bigger challenges. You know, you started your comments Dale around the fact that often in projects, we have no control over the salaries, these people come to us they get a salary, etc. Someone else's managing that. So we're not competing in
that way. We're competing through their sense of accomplishment, we're competing for their, in many ways satisfying an ego need for mastery. If we look at Daniel Pink's work on on mastery, and autonomy and the sense of progress, right, so part of what we've described is, once that purpose is no longer going to be fulfilled, release them, let them move on to something else, let their mastery be applied in another project and other parts of the business. That's a really
powerful retention message. And I like that. I think, for general leadership purposes, when we are able to put our own needs aside, truly that I mean, that is what we would call servant leadership, we are
serving the needs. And I think if we get a reputation of observing, if we get a reputation of being courageous enough to try new talent, if we are truly authentic, in, you know, we're not playing games with people, we upfront we are, you know, there's that level of authenticity was serving their needs, our needs will be served by definition.
For sure. You know, I, I worked for, for a woman who was one of the best bosses they ever had. And she, she was one of those people that deliberately sold her best people into other groups. So if you got to a certain point in her organization, and she looked at and said, Okay, I don't have another step for you next, and you're getting close to ready.
She went out and called her on different departments, and you know, knowing what you did had conversations, or I'm curious, so she kind of knew what types of things you want to next etc. But she would make all those calls, she'd go ahead and kind of build that structure, and then come back to you and say, look, I think there's a couple opportunities. Maybe you should go talk to these people. I think there's something they have for you. Right, but she'd go to that
process of selling them. And, you know, so that meant she was losing great resources all the time, but she never had a problem getting more. Right the organization sent her new ones and She could pick up the phone and call someone in any part of the organization because she put them all over. Right. And every one of those people had an allegiance to Her. So when she called, you answered the phone,
which is a huge relationship lever, and I think it's a great place to kind of wrap this up the benefits that you get as a leader, when you make your people, your when you make your best talented people available to others, as opposed to holding on to it. And, you know, I've certainly worked with clients over the years who struggled with their talent throughout the world being invisible, because their managers didn't want them to become visible, and therefore
lose them. And so if you're listening to this, and you're a leader of a project, I think a key message we've had today is really the importance of a recognizing the talent you have, and then be not hoarding it, not hanging on to it when your needs could be met differently. And allowing the freedom of that talent to explore other things, the business to benefit, the greater business to benefit from that talent, when you're no longer needing when there's another way that you could get
the job done. I think this is a really powerful message. Any other thoughts before we wrap up?
Just that I think you will learn from a really good green back to the retention concept, because people might kind of look at that and go, okay, but But you know, we talked about how we tend to you're not keeping them. You were going to lose them anyway. Part of the thing with this is you get to choose when you lose them more often. I think I think there's there's a lot of power in that as well, from a retention
perspective, right. It's most of the time our issues with retention is not did we lose someone? Because now it was the right time? It's did we lose them? Because we had it hit us without us really being prepared for it?
Right. Right. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, on another podcast, a future podcast, we will deal with what I like to call seasons in our lives, when we're not leaving a project or leaving an employer because we are unhappy or disgruntled or any of those negative things we're leaving, because the season of our life has changed. And we'll talk a little bit about that. But I think, you know, bringing it back to wrapping up around that
retention side. The very fact that that boss you talked about that she could reach out to anybody, she had retained the relationships, even though the individual may not be working directly for her anymore. She never lost the relationship. And since this is a podcast about people, and how messy we all are, part of that messiness is when we lose the relationship, then the resource is totally
gone. Whereas when we expand and open up and allow that resource to really stretch its wings and get out there and provide greater benefit to others. The that talented individual recognizes that freedom. And as a result, the relationship is enhanced. This has been great. I really enjoyed this and I I liked the different twist that it took. I confess I didn't come in with that twist, and I'm filled with the way it's gone.
Dale, thanks for being engaged and showing that Ella, thanks so much for keeping us on track today.