Welcome to messy but essential. I'm your host Rod Stilwell. And then this is the podcast about the people side of project leadership. It's where we help you improve your soft skills to reduce hard costs. And when we talk about the challenges of leading people to deliver successful projects. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about getting team members on board with decisions are committed, and knowing who isn't in agreement with you, or the rest of the team.
Joining me in studio today is my brother Dale, who's my business partner and comes with extensive project experience around the world. And Ela is our producer and sound engineer. Before we jump into this, we typically in these podcasts, start talking about some level of safety and depending upon where you are in the world. And depending upon where you might be in the midst of this pandemic. I just like to remind each and every one of us that safety isn't something that
we can ever take for granted. In the case of COVID-19, and so on, we're obviously talking about health safety, and being in proximity to people and social distancing, and all those good
things. But I just want to remind us, every one of us that safety is not a any an optional part of a project, it's a critical key element in every single project, whether that's physical safety, making sure that we are not on, you know, not in a compromised situation, or where we're, you know, in a position where we can actually control the environment so that we're safe, or whether that's in
the emotional side. To be fair, most of the time in these podcasts, we're talking about relationships with people, and that creates that emotional safety. So just to remind you out there that safety isn't something that's optional, it is truly something that we have to focus on. And then we have to be intentional about. Having said that, not everybody
agrees with us all the time. And that can create some level of emotional insecurity if you wish, or potential feeling that we're not safe when we disagree with someone. So in today's podcast, we want to talk about that whole issue of how do we get commitment, even though we may not be 100% on board with what everyone is saying? Dale, you and I have both been involved in a wide variety of
projects over the years. And certainly we've had our opportunity to, you know, to be in meetings where there wasn't a clear consensus or certainly not unanimity in the decisions we were making. And when those happen when the tensions high, because, you know, things are really important to us, and we want to make sure that we do them, right. What are some of the things that come to mind about where people have disagreed, but we've still managed to move forward positively.
Wwll, I mean, I think, in my experience, you know, I, especially on technical projects, I don't know that you're ever going to get 100% agreement on everything, I can't imagine a situation where you have enough resources in a project to kind of read everybody's wish list. And everybody's when the list, you know, in terms of and oftentimes technical people are, are very particular in the way they believe things should be done. They have strong beliefs about
the right way to do things. And so, you know, oftentimes, you're not going to be able to meet all of those expectations of your project team members in a project. So I think it's common to have at least some level of disagreement about specific details or specific deliverables. In a project, even if everybody agrees on the big picture, everybody's 100% on board with the big project, they know where they want to go with
it. And even if you've got that level of agreement, I think you're still going to have a lot of disagreement on individual details. And I think as a project manager, it's important that, you know, where those sources of disagreement are in the first place, because I don't think that's always all that Oh, there's there's plenty of times where people on projects don't say they disagree. But that doesn't mean that they agree.
You know, we've talked, you and I in the past, and I think, on some of these podcasts about how sometimes there's a cultural, there's cultural differences, where, you know, people in from one culture may assume that if you don't emphatically disagree with me, or you kind of make encouraging noises, that that's agreement, and people in other cultures may not share that at all. There may be a politeness thing that we don't, you know, say something or, or whatever.
And so, you know, especially if there's there's cultural differences and geographic differences and time differences. I think those things It all play havoc with some of those those projects. And so I think as a project manager, the first challenge is make absolutely certain, you know, where everybody stands on these decisions.
I think that's a critical point. And I really like that, because certainly I have been guilty of times, assuming people were on board, when really, it wasn't that they were not totally on board, but they weren't really committed to the solution. And I just assumed the silence meant acquiescence. Yes, they must be, you know, these are intelligent, capable adults, if they disagree, they'll speak up. Not necessarily.
And I think part of the thing that I've discovered over the years is that when you as a leader, pause for a moment, and literally go around the room, whether that's a virtual room, which is where we spend a lot of time these days, or a physically together room, when you go around the room, and person by person, attendee by attendee, you basically put them on the spot and say, Bob, where are your Sue? Where are you? You
know, Shahir, where are you? It doesn't really matter what the question is, when you take the time to go around the room and get everybody's input. It's often in those instances where you discover that the consensus you thought was there through silence is, in fact, not a consensus at all. And you may actually end up with some significantly better suggestions, because you've allowed people to have a voice.
I think the other thing that I've discovered over the years, and and I'd certainly be interested in your experience in it is the order in which you as the leader, express your views on something. So there are two
schools of thought on that. One is, hey, you're the leader weigh in, get your views on the table, and the other, which tends to be the one I favor, which is, as the leader, I want to go last, I want to allow everyone else to weigh in on where things are, so that my leadership doesn't put people at a disadvantage, if you wish, or have them basically say They agree with me, as opposed to expressing their own views.
And, you know, you mentioned cultural, but they're also one of the reasons a big corporate culture may dictate that the leader once he has or she has spoken, the rest of us just fall in line. But that doesn't mean we really committed, we just fell in line, what's your experience been in terms of that sequence?
No, I think that that's, that's very, very valid. And I think it probably depends a little bit on your relationship, right to the people on the team.
So you know, if you were if you're just the project leader, but you don't have a specific expertise outside of that, and you don't have a functional relationship with the people on the project, then it may not matter when you express your opinion, the same way, you may not have that, that, that you know that that reverence or whatever that people give to your opinion, right. But if you do have those situations, then I think we do absolutely have to be very, very careful about that, and allow
the team to do that. And I think it's, it's even true, not just with yourself, but with the other people on the team. So if there is one person on our team, who you happen to know, has that louder voice and other people have a tendency to give into, but you're not 100% sure that you know, they have the best solution for that, then, you know, they don't always use that voice just to express the places where they are truly the expert.
Sometimes they override another expert in the in the project team, because of their force of personality or whatever. But I think part of the product, being a leader, part of it is not just managing it for yourself, but also managing your for the other people on the team. You know, and maybe directly calling out the person asking for the input of someone who is the expert, or you believe how's that that information that you're not
hearing. And maybe calling that out early in a conversation, get that out on the table right away before it gets drowned out by somebody else. So I think a lot of those nuances of the individuals and their relationships and their personalities, and that's part of what a project leader kind of has to help manage to get those best, you know, to get that information out to really understand who's agreeing who's
disagreeing. And I think, you know, you also probably shouldn't be afraid as a project leader to maybe you can manage, get it out into group in a team setting. But don't be afraid to go to the people individually and say, You know what, I left that meeting, not 100% Sure. You didn't have something you wanted to say that you didn't say? Can we talk about that?
Yeah, I like that. I think it's really a challenge in many cases. For some people. To speak, I know that I've certainly been in a number of meetings where, depending on the hierarchy in the room, you may discover that someone who has their boss in the room doesn't speak up very much. But it doesn't mean that they don't have good opinions, but you do need their commitment. And I think what we're really looking at in today's episode is getting
to the commitment. It's the agreement, the disagreement, all of that stuff is really important. But ultimately, what we're looking at is, are you Is everyone in this meeting, committed to the course of action, even though you may not agree with that course of action, but you recognize that for the better of the project, and the the cohesion of the team, that you're going to, this isn't the hill to die on? This isn't the battle, you're going to fight this one, you're going
to let go? You You know, I don't like the expression, let's agree to disagree. Quite frankly, there's no agreement there. It rather I would say if you disagree, but are still able to commit to that course of action. So often, we asked whether or not you agree, but we don't necessarily ask whether you're committed. And that's the distinction I want to make today. Because it's easy to agree or disagree with something. But that doesn't translate into action.
Ultimately, what translates into action is being committed to something. So when I go around the table, if you wish, or around the zoom, or teams or Google screen or whatever, and ask for people's weight to weigh in, what I really want to do is ask them in a way that gets them to commit to a course of action, not just agree with a statement, but truly get engaged in it. And that means therefore, if we run into difficulties people have committed, it's easy to hold
them accountable. if nobody's committed, well, or if some members aren't committed, then you know, when push comes to shove, or when you start running into difficulties, which invariably projects will do they this easy for them to throw their hands up and say, Well, I was never in favor this anyway, that no, no, no, no, no, no, no, wait a minute, you're part of the team. So it's important to be able to express why we disagree.
And I've certainly seen as I'm sure you have situations where only one voice disagreed, but she was articulate enough that the rest of us saw that her argument actually made more sense than ours. And I've seen eight or nine people, you know, doing a boat face, just because that one individual actually made a better argument than the rest of us were making. So I think that that's a very important component as well, when we're, when we're looking
at that commitment. Ultimately, it is about getting to commitment, the dialogue is important. For sure. The other thing that that I want to keep in, you know, all of us to keep in mind, and you've certainly had these experiences around, you know, the different personalities, if you wish, the different thinking preference, preferences, and so on, that we
bring to the table. So sometimes we're saying the same thing, but because we're coming at it from a very different perspective, it may appear that we're at odds with each other. How do you deal with that? How do you help people to see that? You? Guys gals, you're saying the same thing?
Yeah. I mean, I think one of the challenges often with being the project leader in these things is, is that being able to step back and observe the dialogue rather than participate in the dialogue? And so act as that intermediary? You know, be able to stop the thing and say, well, hang on a second, I hear you saying this, is that right? And then the other person, I hear you saying this, there's that right. You know, and what are the and here's, here's where I think you're both
saying the same thing. And here's why, you know, or, but but it's very difficult. If, you know, there's two people that are expressing an opinion, and they're not hearing each other, if they're both intimately involved in the conversation well, and it's much harder for them to see that. So I think sometimes having that project leader, take that dispassionate view, and be able to take themselves out of the decision and step back and say, you know, my role here is not to make this
decision. My goal here is to lead this project. When people have the expertise, we need to get through this together. And so I'm going to kind of be that that mediator, that person that kind of thinks about thinking styles and thinks about different points of view that thinks about where these things really aren't the same thing, just being talked about differently, or whether it's a nuance that we haven't, you
know, that kind of thing. And then sometimes it was the project we did, that's our job. And it's sometimes hard to step 10 step away from the technical aspects of the project and say, No no no My job right now is to manage the people
I like that. And I think as leaders, we often think that we have to be the brightest person in the room. And you know, our egos Fair enough, that's, you know, part of how we're designed. But that ability to step back and as you say, play that observer role. And then the value you're bringing to the conversation is actually helping the members get the absolute best, the richest results out of the dialogue.
The other thing that I, I think that we could do a lot more of is committing the thoughts to paper, whiteboard, OneNote, you know, mind, mind mapping, technology, whatever that might be, where you're actually getting right out, so everybody can see it. What are the key points we're trying to focus on here? I found that I don't know about yourself, but I've certainly found that sometimes conversations can keep going in circles. And you know, 10 minutes later, you're still
saying the same thing. And it's like, come on, can we get on with this. But as soon as we commit it, to some to it, like I say, a whiteboard, a flip chart, you know, and again, if you're in the middle of COVID, or you're in the middle of a virtual world, and so we've given, you know, I would suspect that even when we're out of COVID, we're still going to be doing a lot more virtually, than we did in, you know, in the past years.
What are the tools you're using to help get those salient points right up there, sometimes I've used a table, for instance, and say, okay, you know, we've got two different major opinions going on here. Let's put them side by side. And then let's figure out which one is actually serving us better, and so on.
But by having it out there, visible for everyone, I've often found that that takes away some of the grandstanding, if you wish, takes away some of the emotion, it actually makes the decision easier, because you've got something tangible, touchable that you can, that you
can work with. That I you know, I would certainly encourage our project leaders on the podcast and you know, those who you're talking with, to use the tools that we have available, you know, whiteboarding, it's a great idea in terms of getting stuff out. But it also allows people to collect their thoughts, as you're writing or as you know, have a scribe lighting sort of thing. The other thing, if I would be so bold would be to as the leader, find someone else who can do the scribing for you,
within the group. And little trick I've used actually is, I've often given that role to the most vocal person, you know, sometimes you have in a group, that person who just no matter what they need to get to two cents worth in or whatever currency you're using. And by allowing them to have a role as scribe, you've actually met what was part of their ego need, which was to feel important. And it's, you know, you could say it's a little manipulative, and
Yep, I'm guilty of that. But ultimately, it allows them to capture thoughts, to make sure that things are getting out there. And, and keeps you free to do that facilitating, if you wish of that meeting, and leading and making sure that people's opinions are expressed.
Because despite the fact that we like to think that we can do multiple things at the same time, it's pretty hard to be writing stuff down, putting it in some kind of a sequence or a format that everybody can follow, and still be leading the
meeting. So I would encourage that division of labor, if you wish, in order to make sure that, you know, the goal is get all the ideas out, have a good dialogue, and lead us to commitment so that we're moving forward, not only on the same page, but ultimately excited about moving forward.
I agree
Any closing thoughts? Before we we wrap this podcast up?
Why, you know, I think when you brought up the point of documenting things as you were going I think that brings up the entire idea of communication. And and, you know, I think communication is incredibly important on this as well. So, you know, when you believe you've gotten to a commitment, I think it's very important to document that commitment. And to ensure that, you know, everybody agrees that they committed, so they may not agree with the
concept. You've documented whatever you were discussing what the decisions were, but document that commitment as well, that we've talked this through, we've agreed to move on, you know, whatever the solution we're going to go forward with, we are all committed to that solution or moving forward. And you know, if you have somebody who's brought up some objections, sometimes too, you can you can say to that person, you know, if you say See your eyes heading in the direction you were worried
about? bring that back. You know, at some point, it doesn't mean that because we decided to go this direction that you had a different idea that your idea had no merit. It's just that in this situation, this is what we chose as a team. And this is what we're committing to. But if for whatever reason, you know, you knew that you saw some things, and that starts to happen, then don't hide it,
don't not talk about it. Don't pretend that it's not there, just because you said you're committed, feel free to bring it back. And I think sometimes that can allow the person to let go of that as well. And I think the more that document, the more clear it is, the more everybody understands what's going on. I think these your time you have going forward.
I think that's an excellent
idea. And I would even take it one step further, in terms of the value of that documentation, and quite frankly, it's with respect to what have we learned, one of the challenges that I've faced around the world with projects is that we frequently discover that we're doing the same thing, we're making the same mistake we made on the last project, because we didn't have those reflections to be able to go back to to say, Alright, let's, you know, before we jump into this, let's What did we
learn from the last thing we did together? What are the things we're going to avoid this time, that's what makes us a better team. That's what makes us a better project. And I think often we just jumped from one to the other. And or we do kind of a post mortem or evaluation or after action review, whatever you might want to call it. And then we put it in the folder, and we never look at it again.
You know, so I think that whole idea of documenting as we go through getting the commitment and truly making sure that that we know who's on board and who's struggling, etc. And having committed things to some level of writing, whatever, whether it's electronic, whether it's physical, whatever it might be. I think those are all things that can help us move forward. Dale, as we wrap this up, one thing that I want to stress is that sometimes getting to that level of commitment can involve
a difficult conversation. And so I would encourage our listeners, that if you find yourself in that situation, first of all, don't turn it into allow in front of everybody. Sometimes you want to just be able to take that offline, have that conversation, difficult conversations, we've already done a podcast on that. And there are certainly other resources available to help you have that difficult
conversation. But ultimately, I think it's critical that as we move forward as a team as you work together, you have you lean in to those tough conversations, you share with each other what your feelings are, etc. And I know sometimes it's like watch sharing our feelings. But ultimately, the goal here is to deliver successful projects with messy people. So as we wrap this up today, I'd like to thank you for your ideas today. Thanks Ella for a stick handling the techie stuff behind the scenes.
And to the rest of you out there listening. We continue to wish you great success with your projects. Stay safe, stay healthy, and we look forward to next episode. Thank you