Conflict Is Inevitable, Division Is a Choice — Nina Barnes

and conflict isn't bad. I say conflict just is, It's not bad or good. How we navigate it, it Yes. is whether it's bad or good, conflict is actually necessary. I believe it's clarifying. It helps us to identify what's real. Welcome to Mending Divides podcast, your source for unfiltered conversations about conflict and how to deal with it. I'm your host Jer Swigart, and today's conversation is with Nina Barnes.

She's a spiritual director and conflict consultant who has spent her life honing her craft. We talk about how conflict is inevitable and necessary in relationships, conflict styles, how to tell the truth with kindness, which is not the same as being nice. And the problems with agreeing to disagree. Nina provides strategies for constructive conflict resolution that will help you deepen relationships through disagreement. Here's our conversation. So let's dive right in.

I am just moved by the way that you've spent so much of your time and energy and life working with leaders in organizations as they deal with conflict. And I wonder, Nina, how do you think about conflict generally speaking, and how are you also thinking about conflict right now? Yeah. And in some ways those are, it's the same answer. It's something that I said. Kinda off the cuff, probably about 10 years ago when there was a sharp conflict on the campus, I, you know, worked for a university.

It was a very sharp conflict on campus. and I made this statement in chapel, conflict is inevitable. Division is a choice. Hmm. mm Yeah. Go. conflict. Go. Say more. Say more on yeah, conflict just is. Yes. You, we have conflict all the time, but because it's small, we don't name it as a conflict, right? We don't even have to have another person around to have conflict. We can have conflict with ourselves, Mm-hmm. and I joke and say, I have conflict every day.

I would eat chocolate, dark chocolate all day long. Yeah. So the conflict is I shouldn't. yeah. But maybe if I have a little right, we can laugh at that. But, that's a conflict Mm-hmm. Between what I say my stated goals are, And then the actions that I'm making. So if we can look at conflict as it just is Yeah. you wanna go to a certain restaurant and your partner doesn't wanna go to the same restaurant, Mm-hmm. that's a conflict.

Yeah. Because when we can solve it, we don't think of it as a conflict. It's almost like we put conflict in the category of things we can't solve. And that doesn't serve us well because then we never see a success. We never see ourselves moving through a conflict. Mm-hmm. So I work with people, as you said, all day long around conflict. And I say it just Mm-hmm. and we need stop trying to avoid it because being human and living in community, living in a society means we're gonna have conflict.

Mm-hmm. Division is a choice. Mm-hmm. We get to decide when the conflict is so sharp that we're willing to divide over it. Mm-hmm. That's the part that we have choice over conflict, we, we really don't have a choice Yeah. Yeah. on whether there's gonna be conflict. We have a choice on how we navigate the conflict. That's right. That's right. No, I'm thinking around conflict, if I were define it, would be the collision of actions, ideas words, forces that disrupt the status quo.

Yeah, and if that's a definition of conflict, then that doesn't, that even would suggest that conflict isn't necessarily bad. exactly. Right. and conflict isn't bad. I say conflict just is it's not bad or good how we navigate it it Yes. is whether it's bad or good, That's right. conflict is actually necessary. I believe it's clarifying It helps us to identify what's real. If we never have a conflict, then I see, I would say, what are we doing? Are we just agreeing?

Are we just... I don't know what that looks like. And I think it, it just isn't even realistic. mm-hmm. So conflict isn't bad. It conflict surfaces something, surfaces an opportunity yeah. for clarity, right? yeah. Yeah. No, that's really helpful. feel like most of us. Our experience of conflict though, has been so wildly uncomfortable, or maybe even we've absorbed so much pain , not because of conflict, but because conflict has been handled so poorly.

Yes. In our experience that the connotation then is conflict Yeah. is terrible and is to be avoided or yeah. maybe differently. Conflict is to be conquered. I'm to win as a way of avoiding pain that I've experienced before, Yes. You know, And people tend to have a conflict resolution style. Right, Right. mean, you know, the three most common would be two. You've already named one. I'm just gonna avoid it at all costs. Yeah. Yeah. The other is, I'm gonna win.

Yeah. I'm gonna have an aggressive style, and I'm gonna win. The other that you named, I'm gonna avoid it. That's a passive Mm-hmm. the style that's more helpful is the assertive style, meaning I show up, Yeah, yeah, but even assertive gets mislabeled and thought of as aggressive, yeah. Right. depending culturally. Right, right. What's the cultural context and what's the cultural contract within that context? Mm-hmm.

If the cultural contract is, we are never going to handle conflict directly, then the person who does, has violated that contract and now they're the problem. Yep. Yep. That's right. The one who actually wants to get honest about it then becomes the problem. Yes. the problem. because you have violated that this community's social contract, even though it may be unnamed, but I know people who talk about it from birth. This is what they, you just don't talk about it.

So the person that does is now the problem that everybody can unite around, Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's right. then we're scapegoating, then we're off the races. Yeah. this idea that conflict is inevitable, I wonder what does it take us to actually shift in our orientation from conflict as a threat to be avoided to conflict, as an opportunity to embrace. And I'd love to hear you reflect on that. And then also if it's an opportunity, what happens on the other side of conflict? You know?

So if we wanna say, if we wanna help people shift in their mindset, why is it worth them shifting this mindset? What do they get if they start to see this as an opportunity? Yeah. On the other side of it, even as, I think as people start to realize, oh, this person is operating in good faith, Mm-hmm. like they want to move through the conflict too, then we can develop a trust and appreciation. And on the other side of it, there is a depth of relationship that didn't exist Yeah. before.

There, there it is. Even when the relationship was deep, it's gone deeper. Right. Because now you know, oh, I can really trust this person. That's right. They weren't trying to win. They were trying to move through the conflict. We were seeking clarity. Yes. The, the goal wasn't domination and destruction, Mm-hmm. and so now there's a sweetness that's available in that relationship and a depth and increased trust when we move through a conflict. I love that.

I was in a conversation this week with somebody and they were asking me the question like, what, what hap, like what happens? Like best case scenario, what happens if we develop the tools to navigate conflict well? yeah.

And I was contrasting it with if I have a shared experience with somebody that's meaningful and like intimacy grows, you know, if if we go and experience something together, or even if we work on a project together or whatever it is, it like strengthens the fabric of friendship and deepens currency of trust.

But nothing in my experience of life so far deepens the currency of trust, like navigating through conflict with one another for the very reason that you said, if we can do this well with one another, of course we're gonna make mistakes along the way, but if we can do this well and be generous with ourselves and one another on the other side of the conflict, we get to turn around and go look what we just did! We just made it through that.

If we can make through that, we can make it through anything. Anything. So it makes me wonder, is conflict a crucible unique unto itself in its ability to foster trust between two people? I believe so. Now I know that's part of my wiring. I, I don't trust when everything is just going smoothly. I'm only trusting that just so far because I'm expecting people to differentiate. Mm-hmm. Right. We can't agree on everything, so are you withholding?

And so I might say to somebody, you know, and it might start off in a joking way, you know, we really, we've never had a conflict. Mm-hmm. is that? Have you brought your whole self Ah, so, so if we're, if we haven't experienced conflict, then perhaps one of us is holding something back. Yeah, because we don't trust, because we're afraid. I sometimes I think people are afraid to know what the other person thinks, Mm-hmm. because then they're gonna have to deal with that difference of opinion.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And And so we're either one or both parties are holding something back, which means we're just on the surface. We don't really have a depth of relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah, that's really insightful. you brought something up a little bit earlier about to conflict, and I'm fascinated by this. I might suggest five approaches. I think there's avoidance, like we've about, I think there's the accommodator. The accommodator is somebody mm-hmm.

puts a higher priority on relationship than the actual issue. And it's kind of like default. Like it doesn't really matter to me. What matters is happiness. I think there's a compromiser who like gives a little and takes a little Mm-hmm. I think there's a controller that's probably the dominator, one who has to win. And then the fifth approach would be the empathetic problem this is the person who values relationship and issue and is willing and able to in.

I think that these approaches, whether it's three or five more, I think that they're modeled for us. It's a learned behavior. Like we all have a preferred approach and it's probably either been modeled for us or we're reacting to what has been modeled us. which means that, I would argue that we have all been really adequately trained to deal with conflict Absolutely. Through upbringing and culture in particular. It's been modeled and we either replicate or react. Right. 100%. 100%. Right.

So, so which is a mind shift because when you and I who like conflict is our thing, Yeah. we are with in conflict, we are guides for their journey conflict. Yeah. How many times have you heard someone say, I don't know how to do I No, you do. It's maybe not working. Yes. We're socialized that way. and in some families of origin, it's not even explicitly stated. Yeah. To your point, it's modeled and we pick up on it implicitly. We watch what happens when somebody dares to name it.

If it's a family that is a withholder, if it's a family that expects direct communication and they withhold, we see how that's handled and we accommodate, to your point, we may at some point go, that doesn't work. I'm gonna learn another way. Or maybe that's how our home life was or is. And then we're in a workplace, so we are actually Yeah. shifting our conflict styles potentially, Yes. because that's what the environment requires. That's right. that's what I wanted to get to this.

And then I want you to get personal. I want you to identify what's your native and preferred approach and how is that shaped in you? but before we go there, like this notion, even the three that you mentioned or the five that I mentioned. I think we're also really quick to assign a hierarchy to, or like a superiority maybe one over the other.

So the one that I mentioned at the end, the empathetic problem solver, that seems like a really wise, mature way of navigating conflict unless you're in a burning building, Ex. Yes. Right. so the, you need a controller in that moment who's like, I don't care about anybody's feelings. We gotta get out the house. Yes. You know? And so my point being, we have actually adapt based on the circumstances.

Sometimes accommodation is really appropriate, whereas controlling, if that's your preferred approach, would be inappropriate in that setting. so what does it mean to grow in our fluency while we have a native approach? What does it mean to grow in our fluency of these other approaches? It's interesting. Hey. Well, it is, and even like you, I, I appreciate the expansion to the five because the other two that you named are included. I include them in the assertive Yeah.

because it's not aggressive, it's not passive, it's assertive and inclusive. But I appreciate the way you've expanded it and actually named what those other two are. Hmm. and and you know, here's where communication style and conflict, Mm. right? So what you named even about the burning building, right? You need command and you need a commanding communication style. The The conflict might not happen until after. When somebody says, I didn't like the way you spoke to me.

So that person who in the moment communicated Yeah. really in a domineering way. Now outside of that danger might go, I hear that. And they might shift to The empathetic problem solver. Pathetic problem solver. Tell me more. right? Because now they're outside of the danger. And so that's how fluid that really is. How fluid you, as you know, I have two granddaughters when they're about to touch something that they shouldn't touch, that could harm them.

There's a whole different gramina that Oh, yeah. That's not the accommodator or the compromise. no, because I need the removal of danger. yes. Then we're gonna sit down talk about how I potentially hurt their feelings Mm-hmm. because my voice was elevated to get their attention 'cause they weren't listening and there was danger.

So, so what you and I need to create Nina and friends, maybe you all can get behind this with us, is we need to create Duo Lingo for conflict, where we identify our preferred approach, but then we can actually grow the skills in the other five, and then tie that in with communication style and tie that in with Enneagram or or MBTI like all of these things. All of the Uh, what's your preferred approach and how, as you reflect on your own life and story, how has that approach been honed in you?

Yeah. Well, and before I get to that, I'm laughing because neither you or I are put off by each other, interrupting. Yeah, Yeah. And some people might be like, gosh, they're, are they in conflict? No. It's just how we communicate yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. with each other. Totally. So I have a very direct style. yeah. And that is the way that I was raised. So in my family of origin, in my home, it was direct communication. and that is my preferred style.

However, I in an environment I live in Minnesota. The preferred style Ooh. is not direct. In fact, direct means aggressive. And so I work with people on no, direct means you're clear in your communication. It doesn't mean aggressive. Those words are not a direct overlay. Mm-hmm. I believe direct communication is a kindness. I believe indirect communication is being nice, And there's a whole distinction between niceness and kindness. And so, yeah, I am definitely a direct communicator.

A high value of mine is to be kind. Yeah. But I also believe that an aspect of kindness is clarity Clarity. yeah. and directness. and directness. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Directness doesn't mean meanness. It just means you are gonna know, I'm never gonna keep you off guard. I'm never gonna have you off balance, wondering what I'm thinking. Mm-hmm. And I think a grace and a kindness. Yeah, I agree. I let's go there. Around this distinction between nice and kind.

I, I feel I feel that the world that we're living in, we ain't got time for niceness anymore. But I think we have to be kind Yes. and this is something that I've learned from you. And so, especially as we're navigating really tenuous, I feel like relationships just in general are really fragile. Yeah. and our default is to be nice when what's needed is kind. Help us understand what you mean by that.

Yeah, so an aspect of niceness is a person being pleasant, agreeable, which means you're not actually gonna get to what's true Yeah. Okay. if the value is to be agreeable and pleasant and friendly. That's very surface level, Mm-hmm. and often niceness is a tool of self-protection. mm Go go deeper there. Yeah. What do you mean? meaning, I really, I don't wanna have a conflict. I don't want anybody to be mad at me. I wanna protect myself.

And so I'm not gonna say the things that I really am thinking Mm-hmm. I'm gonna be nice. It could be in a setting with somebody who is really domineering and aggressive. Niceness can have that person take a step back because niceness can also look like submission. Mm-hmm. So it's just not real. I don't trust niceness Because it's only gonna go so far. And niceness is actually not gonna be helpful if I'm doing something I shouldn't be doing.

Yeah, Yeah. If you're being nice and you watch me doing something that is harmful to myself or others, but your commitment is to be nice, then you're not gonna be helpful to me. Yeah. You're not gonna be truly caring. Yeah. So, kindness cares, kindness seeks the wellbeing of the other person, even when it may not feel good. Kindness tells the truth. Mm-hmm. Kindness says, I care about you enough that I need to share some things with you.

Mm. Here's some things I see that are not serving you well. Mm-hmm. Kindness cares enough to risk that there's gonna be a conflict. I mean, what's popping for me is this idea that niceness is about self-preservation. have never, that's a next level for me. Mm-hmm. Niceness, I think in our society has been acquitted with polite but actually to place it more in the space of self preservation, image management, reputation protection, Yeah.

things like this is a different way to think about niceness. Kindness as a gift in that it's the way that disruption of the status quo becomes tolerable or perhaps kindness is the way that we lean truth. It's the entrance into it. It causes me to say, perhaps I can go here. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. and you know, sometimes people say truth telling, you know, and I'm gonna tell you truth, and we all brace, Yeah. because the how matters, right.

But when it's in the context of kindness, we already have a sense of that's gonna be helpful and thoughtful. Mm-hmm. Yes. Where truth telling can be, you know, bracing and, you know, hair blown back. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. you said the truth and Wow. that was not kind. So let's think about this circumstantially for a second, because truth telling with kindness, you've done this in my life. You have this skill.

I have to imagine that your ability to kind, the moments when you select a. truth in kindness, Mm-hmm. how does that correlate to the currency of trust between and that other person? I, in other words, like I feel like we live in this moment in time where it's tell the truth and speak truth, the power, yeah, okay. Okay. But if I'm screaming the truth, with kindness to someone with whom I have no trust, Yeah. I what is the outcome of that?

So speak to the intersection of kindness and trust and how that opens the door for constructive conflict. Because it's what's your goal, right? If the goal is just to shout the truth Mm-hmm. And let chips fall away, they may and the goal isn't relationship. Okay? That'll work. Mm. It's not gonna a relationship, No. you know, unless somebody is really ready to absorb what is potentially abusive communication, Yeah. Yeah. right? So kindness is gonna say some things first.

Like we, we are not agreeing right now. Here's why it's important to me that we listen to each other. 'cause I care about you. Mm, Well, now there's it. I've already said the why. yeah. Or I've heard you say some things that it is, it's borderline dehumanizing, Mm-hmm. and I've not experienced you that way before. I've not heard you say those things before. What's happening? Yes. That, that's the modeling, thank you for modeling that because.

I think this is the craft that I've observed you hone is the ability to be real time in conversation and identify the moment when a thing was said. And how it's an inconsistency in what you've experienced in that relationship previously and how you surface it, like the courage that it takes to surface it. But you do it with kindness that then invites the person to go, ah, gosh, wow. let me think about that.

It invites a deeper process rather than, I'm now wildly offended 'cause you didn't accuse me, you invited me to consider something. yeah. and part of it is, I am curious like, what, what is happening? Hmm. Like, how did go from where I've known you all the way over to here, what, what's happening in your life? Who are the voices that you're listening to? Because you sound harsh or you sound judgemental.

and that may be hard for you to hear, but I care about you, so I'm gonna name some things on how I'm experiencing you. And the surprise. Now, if it isn't a surprise, I'm, I might say, well, I've noticed a shift in you. And I'm no longer surprised by it because mm-hmm. it's become a pattern, but it still disturbs me. It grieves me because that's not who I've always known you to be. yeah. And so, Fundamentally, I care about you. I care about you. Yes. if I don't care about a person.

'cause we're talking about interpersonal conflict, Yeah. Right. If I don't care about you, I'm not navigating the conflict. Why am I using my energy? Because I'm not trying to control you. But if I care about you, I really wanna try to disrupt Mm-hmm. using your words, disrupt the status quo or What's become the status What's become the status quo? And if I can slow down the thinking and, I never say what's not true, like I'm not gonna, you know, hype somebody up if it's not true.

But if I'm saying to somebody, here's how I've known you, you are considerate, you're caring. I've seen you do some really compassionate. go out of out of your way, acts for people. Mm-hmm. And now I hear you say, well, those people, I'm like, hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up. What? What's going on? Mm-hmm. And I'm asking you that. And I will say to somebody, you don't have to explain it to me. Mm-hmm. I'd like to talk about it because it is affecting our relationship.

Yeah. Yeah. See, this is the other. see you. Yeah. This is the other piece that admire in the way that you navigate conflict is like you are aware of what's happening interpersonally and how it threatens the integrity of our relationship.

Yeah. And part of the way that I've observed you fight like a peacemaker a relationship is saying, Hey, there's a thing that's happening, and I don't know if you use this language necessarily, I don't think you do, but there's a thing that's happening that is threatening the integrity of our relationship, or it's potentially interrupting our friendship. Yeah. What I admire about that is you keep centering the importance of the relationship and the other person.

It's like you're centering that rather than your own feeling of offense. so how do you do that? Because I've also watched you absorb in the midst of some hard conversations, I've watched you absorb, maybe even metabolize some of the hard things, like you don't speak up and that right away. I've watched you. There's an absorption that you, and then there's a moment where you're like, okay, now I'm gonna keep us accountable to relationship. How do you do that? walk us through that process?

Yeah. One, it depends on what the topic is. Two, while I'm doing that, I, there's a lot of self-talk. like, Like, say, tell us what yeah, I'm doing two things at once. I'm listening to the person and I'm telling myself, don't react. Listen, Hmm, don't react. Ask more questions, hmm. How aware are you, how aware in those moments that's happening in your mind, but You and I also have the ability with our eyes Yeah.

to communicate that we are displeased, that has power to shut someone down or intimidate them. So okay, so here's some of the mantra you're doing. What are you doing with your face and your yeah. Yeah. I love that you asked that. So a tell for me and people that know me well know when I do this, Okay, finger on lip. Lean in. I'm literally shutting my Okay. So physically you are putting a finger over your lips, it helps me to remember shut up okay?

and listen because my, I have a very expressive face and I know sometimes, you know, it's easier on a virtual call 'cause I can see myself, but other times, Yeah. you know, like I can feel my face wanting to go, what? Or. Really lean in. And so the doing this, I will do this, but not in a ugh, but more like I'm thinking that way I can pause my lizard brain So for those of us who are listening in, her first is a finger over her lips.

Her second gesture is like kind of a looking away from the person and looking off Off, yeah. just to consider, and that's kind of a centering moment for you? It is. Okay. Because the person is then, looks at me and says, oh, she's thinking, Yes. and I am, they don't know. I'm thinking and working really hard to not react. And my mantra might be ask questions and then respond. Reaction isn't helpful, don't react. Mm-hmm. Don't react. Don't react.

And sometimes I'm successful and sometimes I'm not, you I don't wanna paint this picture that I'm always successful. Sometimes I'm not. And I'll say, you know what, can we pause? Because I'm concerned that I'm about to say something it can't be unheard. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Once you hear it, it can't. So, I need to pause. You may feel okay. I need to pause. Mm-hmm.

So, so there, there's another technique, friends for us, as we're thinking about this, like Nina, your ability to be so in tune with what's happening inside of yourself that you are actually cautious about hurting in response. So there are moments when you actually call for a pause mm-hmm. in the conversation to prevent harm. exactly. if you've been harmed. Yeah. You're gonna pause to prevent harm to the other.

Yeah, and I will also say when somebody... like, they're getting really big, I will also call for a pause and say, we need to pause for a second because you're escalating and you might say something you can never take back. Ooh. Ooh. Even though you may apologize, I won't be able to unhear that Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. even though I forgive you. Mm-hmm. It is been said, so you need to pause for a minute. Mm-hmm.

Oh, which is such an which is such an invitation then, if this is between you and me, it's such an invitation then for me to myself Yeah. to reengage maybe my executive function, because I'm thinking reptilian brain, and now I win. You know, Yes. it's interesting how in the way that we deal with this, we can root for one another and bring one another back our own bodies and prioritize the relationship rather than being, right. Yes. that's the thing. Yeah. That's the thing.

I can very quickly, and it's I won't even say second nature, first nature for me to wanna win. Yeah, me too. I'm a competitive, I wanna win. Yeah. I wanna win. Whether it's an argument or a game, I wanna win. Yeah. So if I center on positions, then my brain is coming up with all the arguments and the logic to win and convince you of my position. Mm-hmm. If I center on the relationship, then the position becomes secondary.

Hmm. Even though the position might be very important, what I wanna establish first is, the only reason we're having this conflict is because we're in relationship. Yeah. Otherwise, I could easily walk away. Yeah. And I don't wanna walk away. so, I try hard to help the person understand how much I value the relationship. I value them as a person. I try to be very specific. Here's what I appreciate about you, Mm-hmm. and right now, here's where I'm challenged, Mm.

here's where I'm challenged by you. Yeah. And if you, for those of you who are watching this, you're seeing her face, for those of you who are listening, like the gentleness in Nina's face mm-hmm. is the kindness, the sound of your voice is the kindness. The pause the talking points to, to reprioritize the relationship. And the importance of the relationship is the kindness. Right.

And it's amazing how, when we just use these subtle techniques, it continues to disarm ourselves and the other person. Right? And that feels critical. Now here's the question. We're also this moment in time where an easy exit ramp to conflict is let's agree to disagree. yeah. And I don't per personally like to agree to disagree. Not that I need to have like full agreement, but like I just feel like that's too easy of an off ramp.

Yes. And I think there's probably more gifts for us to explore if we continue lean into this a little bit. I've heard you a little bit on when it's okay for you to agree to disagree, but when it's not okay. Yeah. can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. I, first of all, I completely agree that this whole agree to disagree is very uns. It's unsatisfying, Yeah. it's dissatisfying. because. Nothing changed. and it's also a power move. Mm-hmm. Ooh, It's a power move for people Okay.

when they say, well, we're gonna have to agree to disagree, because basically you just shut down the conversation. That's right. they have, they press the button, the press the button they press the button. Yeah. and so you now shut me off and I might have more that I wanna share. So I will say to somebody, are we really at the point where we need to agree to disagree? Or are we at the point where you're just done with having the conversation?

Hmm. Because if you're done having the conversation, is that for today or is that for always? Like, when are we coming back to this? Because it's very incomplete at this point. I think you just don't want to talk about it. Or The points that I've shared, you don't wanna take in. Yeah. You really don't wanna take that in. And so you're just saying, you're basically telling me to shut up. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So then I want you to name that. Mm-hmm. I actually want you to just name it.

Instead of us going to this, we're going to agree to disagree. Just tell me, Nina, I don't wanna talk about this today or ever. Okay. That's very different than we need to agree to disagree. That's saying you don't want to talk about it. And now I have to respect that, Mm-hmm. but this agree to disagree makes me complicit Mm Ooh. weird, passive thing, and I'm not gonna be complicit in that. Right, 'cause what are you gonna do? Say, no, I don't.

You're actually like overstepping the boundary that they're trying to establish somehow by saying, actually no, you don't get to do that. And, you know, right. So yeah, let's really define what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's good. And again, like the technique, I I wanna keep pulling technique here. You just, with gentleness and kindness, you just keep on inviting yourself and the other to live in reality in the truth. let's just be honest. let's be Yeah. Let's be honest.

Yeah. and if you're saying it's too much, oh, I've just got so much, okay, then that's, that is true and real. And so then let's come back to this another day. If it's important. If it's not important, okay, we can let it go. But if it's important, we need to come back to it another day. 'cause let's just say the first scenario, the person really does say, I just don't wanna talk about it. I really just want you to stop talking.

That person's decision to do that has changed the dynamic of our relationship. Mm-hmm. Our relationship just changed. Hmm. Because that person is saying, I only want this much of you. I really don't want your voice. I want you to be nice, Yeah. is what the other person is saying. I want you to be nice and I don't wanna talk about that, Mm-hmm. and I'm not gonna eliminate that person from my life. I just now know what category of friendship we actually have. Interesting.

Yes, that is really insightful to think about how that moment redefined the redefined the relationship. And there are times when you to agree to disagree. When does that moment happen? Yeah, when somebody is dehumanizing somebody else, so the bar for me is somebody being dehumanized? Is somebody being stereotyped or categorized? Is their right to exist, being challenged? And I know that can sound very dramatic and yet we see it Mm-hmm. and topics can come up in conversation.

Where then again, if we're in conversation and somebody makes a comment and I don't say, wait, we need to go back to that, I'm now complicit Mm-hmm. when that person made that statement. And I don't challenge it or say I disagree, I am complicit. That person would have every right to believe, I believe like them. So So let's just get to it. Let's just talk about specifics like immigration, Mm-hmm. where if somebody is saying, we need to have stronger borders, we need an immigration policy.

Absolutely. If somebody says, those people are animals. Oh yeah, no. Mm-hmm. yeah. nope. not gonna, we're not gonna agree to disagree when your ideology is dehumanizing of another. Exactly. Yeah. Keep there is no agree to disagree. I'm just gonna flat out say that's wrong. And I might also pull in, you know, what is this person's belief system? what is their stated belief system? Yeah, So let's just say this person, they name themselves as a Christian. Then now I'm gonna go there.

I'm gonna say, well, theologically, you know, what about the Imago Dei? The idea from Genesis that every person is created in the image of God. Yeah. So we're all image bearers of God. So how does this view that those people Yeah. are animals? How does that square with they're also image bearers of God. So you just told me a lot yeah. about your theology. Mm-hmm. And again, in, see, look what you just did again. you invited us to be honest.

So I'm not gonna spar with you at, you know, whether or not these people are animals or less human or whatever, because that's nonsense. I'm gonna call you to integrity. Yes. especially for people who are tied the Christian tradition. Right. Our theology is built on the fact that the divine fingerprint is etched into all of us. Yes. And there is no human hierarchy. And so I'm gonna invite you to be integrous. Stand on the actual theology that you narrate. Right.

Because you said this is your theology, but I'm actually listening Yes. to your actual theology. The other is your mental ascent to a theological system, but your actual theology, Yeah. what you believe about God, what you believe about people. you just told me, Mm-hmm. I mean, you, look at every genocide, every disordered behavior in our society, it was based on the dehumanization. That's right. Of another group of people. Yep. stop. The whole idea of eugenics the idea of race. Mm-hmm.

It wasn't like somebody in a vacuum said, let me think about these racial categories. No, it was to justify enslavement. yeah, It was about money, yeah. It's greed. it's greed. Greed required human hierarchy. exactly. In 'cause in order to justify that Yeah. treatment of people, you have to say that they're less than. That's right. And so we can go around the world and look at subjugation Mm-hmm. of people groups and at the heart of it usually is greed, Mm-hmm. but there's dehumanization.

'cause you have to, because I don't know too many people who can just look somebody in the eye and think they're an equal and dehumanize Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's right. That, That's right. that doesn't happen. If you think they're an equal, then you're gonna disagree with them on whatever the issue is, not their very humanity. Yeah. Yeah. Their right to exist. That's right. The to exist. And if we center on the U.S., the right to liberty, the right to freedom, the right to free expression.

But the boundary there is free expression if you're not dehumanizing Mm-hmm. That's right. So that's the line for me where where we're never gonna have a conversation yeah. And then I'm not gonna say wait. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and that's again, where your convictions and the way that you express and embody a theology that says that all of us are equally created in the divine image.

what I appreciate so much about the way that do this is that you so fundamentally believe in this and you yourself, that like, when someone's compromising that, you're gonna hold them accountable. this is part of your magic. And the that you deal with conflict, I think once again, is that you hold people accountable to the truth. You hold them accountable to integrity.

You hold them accountable to the centrality of the relationship, you know, and you're not to be a little bit disruptive with kindness to hold us these things. So, we've talked about lots of different ideas and you're so competent in the way that you about technique and your techniques. Give us a story. Let's close this conversation with a story mm-hmm. of when you've actually had to put all of this into practice. Yeah. Which story? Which story? Because I do practice this.

You know, I can think about a recent one that's fairly recent of a person that's we've deep relationship and long relationship, you know, over 20 years. And over a topic that we agreed on. Suddenly we're having a conversation and a person says, I no longer believe that. And I was stunned. Hmm. Because of the kind of conversation we had before about it. I was really shocked and the topic had a very strong racialized component.

And racialized specifically with black people, the other person that I was talking to was white. and so I had to pause before I got hijacked and 'cause in, in my body, I'm thinking, well, what do you think about me? Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah. I, I, so I just said, oh, okay, I need a minute. I need a minute. And then I just started a, what happened? What changed? How did you go from here to here? And she responded by saying, you know, she had taken in some information in a documentary.

Okay. and I asked more questions about the documentary and the documentary. I said, well, I mean, that person has had a very clear perspective, a pretty one-sided perspective from the beginning. So I would wonder if that's really well-rounded enough, Hmm. or was that person just trying to prove a point? You know, are you willing to listen to or watch a different documentary mm-hmm. might show a different point of view? And the person wasn't, Hmm. the person wasn't, no, this is what I believe.

And I said, okay. And I had to, in that moment, go, what does that mean for us Yeah. In our friendship. our friendship? Again, what does this mean and what is she actually saying? Hmm. Am I making this bigger by saying, well, if you don't agree with this situation, then that means you're not for black people and that means you're not For me. That wasn't fair. hmm. So you wouldn't jump to premature conclusions? right? I couldn't allow myself to just, and believe me, my brain went there Of course.

I. and to go, wait a minute. Back up. Back up. That's not what she said. So ask more questions Mm. and it wasn't what she meant. What I then had to bring into play was some historical context on why I could perceive that as you're speaking very generally, because here's how this has played out throughout history. Mm-hmm. Which slowed her down some, and she heard that it didn't change her point of view, but it slowed us down enough to still see each other.

Mm. And for me to say, Ooh, this is wow, I was not one expecting this. Two, I'm having to work hard. Here's the thing that happened in it, is that I could see her fading away. I could see her moving away, not physically, but conflict culturally for her is avoidance. Avoidance. and I went in after her like, I want to keep talking about this. Mm-hmm. We clearly disagree Mm-hmm. and I'm coming in after you. Because I am not willing to give this relationship up over this Mm-hmm.

So give us a, just like a, what does it mean that you came after her? I just kept asking more questions and naming. I know this is difficult, Okay. Okay. and I'm not trying to convince you. You're getting quiet. I feel like I'm doing all the talking now. Mm-hmm. What does that mean? Yeah. Got you.

Yep. So then the conversation ends, and here's where I feel like we stall out in our relationships and as we deal with conflict in our relationships is like that conversation, which was a hard conversation, kind of awkward. She's maybe beginning to lean out. You're trying to lean in. That conversation is over Too often I think we go, Ugh, I don't know if I'm gonna keep fighting for that relationship. And that's kind of the last meaningful conversation that we ever have.

And so how did you keep fighting for the relationship? How did you keep fighting for your oneness after the conversation was over? Well, even while the conversation was still going on, what I could see in her eyes she is standing on her position. I am standing on my position and I could see a resolve, a finality for her. Not necessarily on the relationship, but a finality of this isn't going any further. I then said, I care about you.

I love you, Hmm. and too many relationships are dividing in these days, where then people are just polite and they call a truce. Nice. Ooh, And a truce is not peace. go say more. We, I don't want a truce. Yeah. I, we, that's not our relationship. and we have meant too much to each other Yes. to a truce, and I think we're both clear on where we stand on this, and so we don't have talk about it again. I mean, she clarified even though this had a very strong racial dynamic.

She wasn't saying that about me. She wasn't saying that about all black people. Generally. She wasn't seeing it that way. I said, I could see it that way, but I'm gonna trust you in what you just said to Yeah, yeah, yeah. because our past history Yeah. doesn't show me any reason that I shouldn't. Yeah. Yeah. And so for me to not trust the journey that we've been on and stand on this and say, well, this means this. I don't have any proof of that. Mm-hmm. And I didn't leave the conversation.

I was not gonna let that conversation end without saying, I love you. And yes, we disagreed, and it was a sharp disagreement, Mm-hmm. and I don't want this to change our relationship. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like you can trust that I'm not angry with you. I'm gonna be honest, I'm really puzzled. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna even say I'm disappointed Hmm. and I love you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not gonna walk I'm not walking away. So, Not walking away.

Nina we need episodes 2, 3, 4, five to continue this conversation. we started with a, a moment that we find ourselves in where everything feels pretty overwhelming. the divides are widening And the ache that many of us feel is in the interpersonal space, not that we're not alarmed nor need to carry a sense of urgency around the larger conversation that's happening. The ache that so many of us feel is our relationships are crumbling, or falling apart.

and I think we've had ample space and time to talk some of that through. what's one gentle invitation you would offer to folk. And I'm gonna even put you on the spot. as we do the interior work, as we do the interpersonal work, as we do the institutional work. Mm-hmm. what's a gentle invitation you might offer in each one of those spaces? Yeah. For So the interpersonal, does the relationship hold value? what I just described? I'm not doing that in every relationship.

Some relationships are more like an acquaintance. There's not a value. I don't have that kind of capacity to do that with everybody that I might disagree with. So who are the core relationships? hmm. Mm. Identify your core relationships. Yeah. and the people that you just say, unless that person tells me flat out, I, I'm done with you. I'm gonna fight for that relationship. Or they do something so egregious that it demonstrates that their values have changed.

Yeah. Otherwise, no. I'm holding, I just, I, it grieves me the number of people who are letting relationships go and then they say they're lonely. I'm like, yeah. And I get it. They disagreed, but again, conflict just is, it's Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Everything can't be we end the relationship, worthy, Right? There are some things, absolutely are some things, but some of the things that are being put in that category to me are not worthy of, that.

We're not giving people space to have their own opinions. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. that was the interpersonal. Yeah. what's a gentle invitation for us to do some in some interior work? Yeah. The interior work is, why did this trip me up? Hmm. What did it, I resist the word trigger 'cause it's overused. But what switch got flipped? Mm-hmm. where I was ready to go from zero to a hundred. Hmm. Was I no longer seeing this person and I saw all of society Mm-hmm.

that I tried to then make this person the scapegoat for. Mm-hmm. that, those are my internal questions. So a little bit of self interrogation, like in, in the aftermath, Yes. pay attention to what tripped me up or what switch got flipped Yeah. and wonder about it with And wonder about it. And wonder also, what could I do differently? Yeah. Right. Was I too strong? Was I too dogmatic? Was I too forceful? Did I want to have the person keep talking about it? When they were like, please no more.

Mm-hmm. those are the questions sometimes that I have to ask. Yeah. Got you, got you. And then so those, So in essence, it is self interrogation. What was my role? If it didn't go well, what was my role? Even if it did go well. What did that mean? yeah. That's good. And then Is there a follow up that's needed Yes, To assure the person Yes. that I what I said when I said I love them. Mm-hmm. Hmm. and then here we are.

All of us live in systems and society and all of us feel a certain way about all that's happening not just in the United but around the world. And so we are all players in larger society. Yeah. It's so easy to be overwhelmed paralysis. What's a gentle invitation for those of us, all of us Yeah. who live in a fracturing society? yeah. Whether it's the person who is overwhelmed and wants to withdraw from everything, or the person who's ready to fight every battle, one. Mm-hmm.

what Tugs at your highest value, Mm-hmm. that thing that tugs at your highest value. Which if we say, well, it's the imago dei, it's that every person is an image bearer of God. Well, there's still a lot that could fit into that. Right? So then what's one thing that is pulling against that? Is it something in my direct community, whatever I identify as my most direct community? then that's the thing. But we can't fight everything. And for those who really wanna tap out Yeah, you gotta show up.

You gotta show up. and the showing up is gonna be different for everybody. Some people are frontline folks, body on the line. Right. Some people voice on the line. For some people, yeah. Write your poetry, Mm-hmm. write the book, write the blog. draw the picture. Paint. Paint the painting. Draw the pic, yeah. Mm-hmm. Sing the song. Sing the song. right. Whatever way you can express, and that's for the sake of your own soul.

I am convinced that people that hold back and repress, it's like a flesh eating bacteria. I don't mean to be so graphic, but it's damaging their own souls. Because we can't numb to just one thing. If we're numbing our feelings, we're numbing our feelings, Period. Period. Even the good feelings. right. And so what's the way that you express? For some people it really is acts of kindness. if you witness something that's dehumanizing.

The kryptonite to that, For a person who is really a gentle spirit, might be you're gonna go out and you're gonna do something for somebody that may even represent that same people group. Mm-hmm. Not in a patronizing way, but in a way that says, I don't believe that Yeah. and so I'm gonna do this. Yes. So I'm saying engage, don't, sitting on the sidelines really isn't an option. And if we're making it an option, then we have to investigate that. what are we really saying?

And some people are saying it overtly, it doesn't impact me. So then we're saying, I'm selfish. Mm-hmm. If it doesn't impact me and it doesn't impact the people I care about, I don't care. Then just say, you're selfish. Yeah, Now this is me again. she says with a twinkle and a grin. Oh, for sure. Because, 'cause we gotta name, we got, here's the thing, we will not change what we will not name. Ooh, there it is.

We won't change what we, so when we're standing on the sidelines saying, I just wish we could all get along. Mm-hmm. Beautiful. And I hear people saying that, I just want it to go back to the way it used to be. You mean when there was conflict that you just weren't involved in? 'cause there's not ever gonna be a time, but in this moment, to be on the sidelines is really saying you don't care. And it's not until it impacts you that you're gonna use your voice. Come on, Nina. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you, Thank you. you. This is, it's always good to be with you Yeah, yeah, yeah. to spend, talk about what's real. yeah, yeah. to spend time talking about this disarms, the boogeyman that is conflict. And just in the way that you narrate a conflict, competent life is equipping the rest of us. So we're grateful. Thanks for time. Thanks Jer Yeah, The Mending Divides podcast is a production of Global Immersion.

Learn more about our work, companioning Western Christians on a journey from a religion that dominates to a faith that restores @globalimmerse.org.