#258 Beyond Erections: Redefining Intimacy and Connection (with Shay Doran)

Let's dive in. The way that I like to start is with three questions in it, and those questions are who are you? you do and what do you do? Okay, I'm Shadora. performance anxiety. So I work with men who are experiencing erection and ejaculation challenges to help them get that sorted.

Because it sucks. And so what am I passionate about? Well helping guys to get this sorted because yeah, it's a pretty shitty experience when we're going through it. And I think outside of that I would say passionate about living life. Uh whether that's adventure, whether that is exploring the uncomfortability zones, whether it's in business, relationships, etc. But living life to the max. I love exploring new places, taking on new challenges, whether it's fitness challenges or

adventure challenges, these kind of things I love. Passionate about that. Yeah, beautiful. Why are you doing the work around performance anxiety? What, you know, did you were you were a little boy and you said I want to grow up and you know help men overcome sexual dysfunction. Yeah, why why are you here? Why are you doing this work? Definit definitely not that when I was younger. So uh me neither, by the way. That was very facetious. That wasn't me uh me either, so I appreciate that.

I was actually in banking and consulting for fifteen years and to make it yeah, short story in two thousand two thousand eighteen was a transformative year for me. My dad passed away and I decided to, you know, reevaluated everything in my life. and quit my corporate job, put a backpack on, sold everything in my apartment in London and travelled the world.

And that really shifted everything for me in terms of okay, I knew I didn't want to go back into the corporate life, but throughout that time and in the years before that, I'd actually been experiencing performance anxiety myself in the bedroom. erection challenges mainly and it had caused a lot of shit in my life. You know, it really significantly impacted relationships.

self esteem was through the floor, which I really had no idea about at the time because I thought, oh, I'm a very confident guy, but this was very surface level and underneath these things were really rocking it hit me at the core. Um so once I eventually opened up about that, after years of not ever speaking to anybody about it and trying to get it all fixed myself.

Once I eventually opened up and went on the journey of getting this sorted, from that moment I was like, right, I want to also help other guys to do this.

Yeah. Yeah, beautiful, man. What were let me ask you this, what was the straw that broke the camel's back that made you personally take some steps to get it sorted as you sat? frustration and anger. I would say this is I I hadn't really ever seen myself as a angry kind of guy, but this wasn't going away. And

the frustration and anger actually showed up in business. You know, so once I'd quit my corporate job and after that time travelling the world, I obviously ran out of the pot of money that I had and I thought, okay, I need to get something going here to be able to Bring the income back in, and I was trying many, many, many different things. Most of it wasn't working, and I had a coach.

the business coach, one of the I went to a Tony Robbins seminar and then did some coaching with his team and it was like a twelve month coaching package. This whilst all of these frustrations around the business were happening In my personal life, I just had a really bad relationship with sex. And as I mentioned, these challenges were showing up. But I didn't mention anything to the coach about this, even though it was on my mind all the time.

And then it got to uh month I think it was month eleven out of the twelve month coaching package, and she made me do this exercise that was I had to draw a circle for the amount of energy, like mental energy that I was putting into uh self-development, business and relationship.

I was single at that time, but the relationship circle was like three times the size of the other circles. And this was the moment, this was the straw that broke the camel's back. So I looked at that and I thought but this Why is it three times the size that doesn't feel right? Because I'm not with anybody. And I can only describe it as just like a moment where it felt like

the reality slapped me around the face. I just immediately burst into tears and just realized that so much of this frustration, anger, the root of it was basically my relationship with Horn, with sex. Yeah, thank you for sharing that me. I'm always curious about what is the impetus for seeking support, right? And I see a lot of guys who in a similar way that you've just described are like deeply frustrated and angry and are, you know

bottling that up and not really talking about it or acknowledging it and it's showing up in different areas of their life. But I've also got guys who are, you know, deeply ashamed and feel lack of self-worth and they're not angry or frustrated, but they're they're they feel broken and they feel desperate. Yeah. And then I've also worked with guys who are

like inspired and feel like, you know, this is something they want to tackle and they feel like really juiced up about like doing something about this. And they're like really motivated and highly like, you know, yeah, highly goal oriented, I suppose. And Yeah, it's interesting working with guys with those different

intrinsic motivations, right. And and the thing that's gotten them to my doorstep, so to speak. So yeah, I appreciate you acknowledging the, the frustration piece and the anger piece there and and then there being like this catalyst, right? This, this moment of change and Some guys that I've worked with, they have described to me things like a partner who said something, right? Or or something they heard on a podcast. Or

a realization when they were talking in a men's circle about their experience and recognizing that like they weren't alone in that experience and that being being like a wake up call for them. So Yeah, it's th there's so many different ways of of entering into this work, I feel like, of like sexual

personal development, if you will. And yeah, and I'm always really curious about that. So I appreciate you you answering that. You mentioned there were several things that you had tried that didn't work. And I'm wondering what those things were that you want me sharing. Yeah.

Well, I was definitely I would say I was in the space of r reading endless articles, watching endless videos. Many of the guys and I'm sure you can relate to this as well, are absolutely in that space because there's Endless advice out there. There's a lot of oh how to get erection challenges sorted in ten seconds. And attempting. These quick fixes are tempting, right? They keep us hooked. It gives our brain everything that we want to see because it feels like

Oh, we can do this in the comfort of our own home behind a screen. We don't have to tell anybody about it. We don't have to feel vulnerable about it. And so I was absolutely in that space. I hadn't tried pills, hadn't tried taking pills, but absolutely in the space of like not wanting to tell anybody about it, wanting to keep it secret, wanting to just get it sorted for myself.

feeling like I should be able to fix this for myself. Which is crazy because this is something that stands out to me now. We think that we should know all of the answers, but we don't apply that same logic in other areas of our life, right? When it comes to swimming, riding a bike, learning a new sport, learning a language, playing an instrument. We learn from somebody who's already figured that out.

But when it comes to sex because it's so vulnerable, it's such a vulnerable area of our life and we feel like whether from what we're taught or not taught when we're younger, culturally as a society, that we should just know the answers. If we're a real man, we should know what to do.

But the truth is you know, w when we're experiencing challenges or when we want to learn something new, we need somebody to guide us who's been there and done that. Yeah, I agree, man. So I was definitely stuck in that place for a long time of just wanting to figure it all out myself.

Yeah. And that feels lonely in that place as well. I remember reading books and watching YouTube videos when I was struggling with you know performance anxiety related erection issues and and quick ejaculation and just like Bro, the amount of fucking books that I had on my shelf of, you know, sexuality related, you know, things I was

And I was the I ended up being the go to person for like all my mates because I had all the books and they're like, Oh, Cam's got the fucking book on on this thing. And so by proxy I became a bit of like a sexuality educator for my mates because I was just reading a bunch of stuff. But it was from a place of

Like I feel broken. What the fuck is wrong with me? Why is this why can't I fix, you know, this this thing? And uh yeah, it wasn't until I started going to therapy and actually unpacking my thoughts around masculinity and performance and getting You know, my journey facilitated by someone who knew what they were doing.

to to act you know, that I actually saw some some some s you know, I would say significant improvements. I saw some improvements by reading all the books and doing the things that were, you know, in the YouTube videos. I don't want to discount that altogether. But it was a you know, it was a

It was in dialogue and in conversation and in you know practical facilitation with someone else who knew what they were doing that I actually was able to go much further. And now I have the privilege of being able to do that with guys, which is Great, because I often hear from guys who have read Mag Chia's books or read this particular podcast or listen to this thing and they're like,

I tried and it's not working. I don't know I don't know what to do. And it's like, yeah, man, it's because like it isn't a cookie cutter approach. It isn't just do this one thing and you're good to go. It's it's It's therapy, it's unpacking, it's reframing, it's changing the approach to sex. Like there's so much else that goes into it. And I get a bit discouraged when I see

social media influencers, your typical like sexuality men's gurus type fellas who are like, Yeah, this is the one thing that you do and it'll you'll never have an erection issue again. It's like, mate.

It's not a human beings work, firstly. And secondly, you're giving guys false hope, right? Because a lot of guys will try that thing, it won't work, and then they'll be like, I'm fucked. And so yeah, I don't appreciate that, like speaking in universals when it comes to giving guys advice because it's just not

We aren't cookie-cutter versions of each other. We, you know, have unique experiences and past histories with relationships and approaches to sex and and so I I think like that hands-on personalized approach is the way to go about it if you're really struggling. I agree. Yeah. One thing that you said there of where the guy tries the oh how to get things sorted in with this one thing and then it doesn't work.

And then we think something's wrong something's wrong with me. It reinforces this belief that we already have, right? If I'm broken, something's wrong with me, something's wrong with my body. when we're trying all of these other things, a lot of the guys that I speak with, I'm sure it's the same as well. You know, they've tried pills.

They've tried byddai'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd

You know, a doctor from their side of things, it's gonna be the medical route. And it's very easy to just jump to, oh, here's the pills. But then w the pills aren't the thing that fix performance anxiety, right? When it's a mindset game. And so then when we're taking the pills and thinking, Oh my God, even these aren't working, I must be really fucked. But it's it's none of that and going back to the

you know, guys on social media or YouTube or wherever it may be, a lot of these titles is just to get views, right? Or to catch attention, which I understand from a marketing point of view. But when you're on the receiving end of actually

Yeah, it just reinforces the belief that I'm broken because these one minute miracle cures aren't working. Yeah. Yeah, I feel you, man. And so so talk to me about what worked then. What what what was the thing that got you from that place where you're spending so much energy on, you know, your relationship.

circle and you realise fuck this needs to be something that I do work with. What what was the next step that you took after that? Uh okay. So the first thing was r realizing and accepting to myself or within myself that I didn't have all of the answers and what I had been trying wasn't working.

And that I had to get real, that I had to speak to somebody about this. I actually started I needed to start having conversations about this. So I think that that was a major, major first step because that's what had held me back for so long was just the the vulnerability of this and want the shame of it basically of wanting to figure it all out for myself, not wanting to speak to anybody about

So I think that was the major first step was say having a real conversation with myself and saying, Okay, Shay, this hasn't been working. In my mind, you know, we do these things of oh, if I can just stay hard for long enough this time. Or if I w these tests, right? These mini tests, waking up in the morning, checking, oh, am I hard? If I am, then everything's okay. Or if I get hard to watch in this porn, then it's gonna be okay. Things are getting better.

So I was definitely in that space of trying to convince myself that oh if it was right this time then things are probably getting better. And I the first step had to be real with myself. Yep, that wasn't working. It wasn't getting me the long term results that I wanted. Secondly, to accept that I didn't have the answers.

And a lot of this was actually unknown. I didn't even know where to start. I didn't know what to do, who to speak to, but I just started working with co for me, coaching was what had seem to work and got get me to the point of actually having the conversation. So I just started working with some of the top coaches around the world, working on understanding their mindset methods and then applying it basically in live time to my own life and figuring out right what are the things that get this

sorted and what doesn't really work so much. And that was a process of probably about three to four years to be honest of working through this and then at the end of that time just okay, this was the stuff that really stood out to me that seemed to work and started speaking to other guys.

sharing these tools with them, seeing that they were getting the sim similar results. And and then that was like a couple of years ago when I decided, Okay, cool. I've got the the recipe that seems to work from my side and going to help other guys with that. But the I I think to summarize it, so yes, for not step one would be this the admission that I had to make to myself and the courage of not going to know all of the answers, but I need to start talking to other people about this.

And I would say also one of the other major things that shifted, I'd really be interested to get your view on this as well. Cause I would say this is something that I really work on with guys a lot is We have to ultimately what's happening is our nervous system's going into a stress state, right? When we're losing the erection from a biological point.

our nervous system's going into a stress state. There's a whole bunch of reasons, some of which I'm sure we'll unpack, of why is that happening in the first place. It doesn't just all of a sudden happen. It's as a result of past, you know, or thoughts, experiences, etcetera. But over time I think what the tools really helped me to do was create a sense of safety within my own body, rather than externalising or trying to outsource

feeling grounded, feeling calm, which is absolutely what I was doing before. I was putting it onto other people, other places, and I really had to go on the journey of learning how to my own nervous system create safety within myself. Hmm. Yeah, man. How did you do that? What are your practices for creating safety in yourself?

Okay, let me figure out how to this is a good question. I'll give an example of a couple of the tools I'll go through guys. So Lest they be How does performance anxiety come about in the first place? From many of the guys that I've worked with, it is it starts in our early formative years. This is my personal belief. I'm definitely open to other views as well.

The thoughts are similar. So it may not be anything to do with sexual experiences that haven't gone to plan. You know, that may start happening in our teenage years or onwards, but a pressure to perform, right? A pressure to be different. In order to receive love. So that may be in academics, that may be in sports, music, comparison to siblings, comparison to other kids, whatever it may be.

didn't happen with whether it's we feel like we put pressure on ourselves or whether it's an authority figure, parent, carer, teacher, etc. There usually tends to be some intense experiences when we stop and think about it.

Right when we cast our mind back to when we were younger. A couple of examples that come to mind from guys that I've worked with. One guy was in a classroom and the teacher all of a sudden put a lot of attention and focus on him and was calling him out for not being able to get things right. in the class and he just remembers the whole class laughing at him. That's one example.

Another guy used to ride horses when he was younger as a sport and his parents were there watching and there would be times where he'd make a mistake and they would be immediately critical of why did you not get that right? Even though his overall performance had been amazing.

It was the f all of the focus was on the one bit that didn't go to plan. You know how to do that. What went wrong? What was the problem? You should have done that correctly. So these are just two examples for, you know, a whole host of different things that can show up. But the the seed is planted there of notice these thoughts, right? What if I'm not good enough? What if they don't love me because of this? I need to perform in order to receive love. Very, very, very similar thought.

to what happens when we experience this in the area of sex. And, you know, when things aren't going to plan in the bedroom, we think, what if they leave me because of this? What if I can't satisfy them? What if I'm broken? What if I can't get this right? What if I'm not loved? Or

So part of what I do with guys to coming back to answer the question is tracing back to those early memories, which many guys at first there's a resistance or there's this thought of like what's that got anything to do? It's nothing to do with what's going on right now. But this resistance, I often say the wall is the way. And when we're feeling this sense of resistance, it's usually an idea of that's where some of, not all of, some of the work, you know, that past stuff is just.

couple of sessions on that and resolving the intensity that we experienced around that because But one of the other things is my my view is performance anxiety doesn't just all of a sudden show up in the bedroom. Right. It may feel that way. Uh it's when it comes to intimacy all of a sudden we just start overthinking.

But I imagine it like a scale, right? There's a two out of ten, then a four out of ten, a six out of ten. When we're in the bedroom it's all it and we lose the erection in that moment, it's an eight or a nine out of ten. And so we have to look at what's the where's the two out of ten happening that's then leading to the eight or the nine out of ten. That's the bit in my view, that's the bit to get resolved rather than the here's the breathing technique.

when we're in the thick of it. In the throws, yeah. Yeah. In the throws, yeah, because it's already too late. When we're in the moment, that's the trying to just plaster over the cracks. Mm. Yeah, I appreciate that approach, mate. And

Yeah, I can speak from so I'll share from like lived experience to to share what you've spoken about, like my my you know, perform to receive love moments. Realization was around I'm a I'm a soccer player and was around playing soccer and and you know, not performing or playing well enough and being criticized by my mum in particular. And and her yeah, saying like I can remember her saying like

Something to the effect of like you'll never make it, right? Or I never I never thought you would make it, I never thought you'd actually be that good. So that kind of rhetoric of being like, oh fuck, like I'm not good enough, right? Is the the realization. And yes. Similar to you, 99% of guys I've spoken to, there is some sort of like, yep, I'm not good enough. Right. And there's there's a a s sometimes a root cause, but like most of the time there's th there's that message comes from

a lot of other areas of our lives as men, right? Like to to to express masculinity is to perform masculinity for a lot of guys, right? Like you have to be a particular way in order to be a man. And you know, I did a lot of uh I alluded to therapy before when I was a teenager and the therapy that I did was narrative therapy with my, you know, my facilitator. And a lot of that was unpacking what are the

scripts that I have either told myself or that I've absorbed from society around me or from my parents or from religion or from my peers about what it means to be a man. And are any of those scripts those narratives actually serving me, right? And so my concept of masculinity for a long time when I was a a teenager was like, this is what it means to be out. I've got to be a good athlete. I've got to be

Good with women. I've got to be confident. I've got to be assertive. I've got to be dominant. I'm not allowed to cry. I'm not allowed to show emotions. I've got, you know, all this kind of prescriptive language around what it means to quote BMN. And if I didn't do any of that. I felt less than a little bit. I feel not manly, I feel effeminate and typically I was also Bullied or ostracized or otherized by the other men in my life, and also by some women as well. Right. There was times where.

I behaved in a way that wouldn't be considered like traditionally masculine and I had a Teenage girl, say something to me about it, right? And take the piss and instances that are more sexually specific is like You know, if I was struggling with erections when I was younger because I was super nervous and anxious about the experience, they would say, you know, that I was. shit in bed. Or I had one I remember one teenage girl, you know, when I was at college in America

who like questioned my sexuality, right? Who was like like, what are you fucking gay? Like I'm right here. What's wrong with you? You know, that type of rhetoric. And so it's not just in my, you know, in my lived experience, like

just a particular moment, but it's like messaging that we're getting all the time as men, right? To to perform masculinity. And women are getting similar messages about like this is what it means to be a real moon. This is what it means to perform femininity as well. So there's such a focus or I suppose an emphasis on performing

in general, right? And if you don't, like you get otherized and bullied and called less than or called not manly or effeminate. And so I think there's like this real insidious idea that we should be behaving a particular way that we should be doing that we should be I I say with my clients like you gotta stop shooting yourself, right? You're shooting yourself, you know, right into you know shit sex. So so that's like where I start with guys is like

What's your concept of masculinity? Because very often Again, most of the time our concept of masculinity is tied into a lack of self-worth, right? And if we don't behave in this particular way to be a man or we don't express our masculinity in this way. that means something, right? And it means that we're less than. It means that we're not lovable to use your your phrase. It means that we're gonna lose that partner. It means that we're gonna

be alone forever because we're not a real man or whatever it might be. That's like where I typically go with it. So yeah, very much resonate with what you're sharing, man. And and I see that performance. Oriented approach to life, you know, in general, because it's been true in my experience. And so yeah, yeah, I appreciate that.

Some of the guys I work with there seems to be this split between those guys who from day one have not really had great sexual experiences and there's just been stacking momentum of that. For me, yeah, my first let's say sexual experience really did not go to plan. I think this is kind of normal, but then when it happens the second and third time or when somebody says something, then we start to develop complex about it. So that can happen very easily.

And we question ourselves, right? And we think, uh I should know how to do this, what's wrong with me? Nobody hardly anybody we hardly get any guidance around this, right? Which is why I think it's amazing that the other part of your job is also going around to schools and guiding kids on this because That work is needed.

And then the other set of guys is those who haven't really had any challenges or where things have gone, you know, most of the time to plan for them and then it seemed like all of a sudden this has just shown up in the last year or the last two years and What I notice with these guys is they generally we're feeling confident, like high degree of confident in confidence in other areas of our life. So for

For me, for example, like oh, I had a successful career in banking. On paper, I had a nice house, I had a nice car, you know, all of these things, I was in a relationship, I all seemed very nice, but then so I was unclear about the fact that actually if I peeled off those layers below that I had deep like insecurities of

Why can't I figure this out in this area of sex? What's going on? Why do I have a bad relationship with sex and and porn? For example, I'd never even thought about that because there was many areas of my life that I thought, Oh, this is going very well. So this is absolutely something that shows up that we feel like, you know, I'm a confident guy. It's just this one era of my life where things feel like they're not going to plan. But then actually we realise

how much this does spill over. As we start to look into it and take back some of the layers, we realise how much this is actually. Let's say we could even be overcompensating in other areas to try and make up for this area. Hm. And uh you're saying that, you know, you help them, your clients.

unpack and process and create a sense of safety where once there was a an experience of of anxiety and Yeah, I'm trying to think of like what my approach is. I I typically focus on deframing the way that we think about sex. And the way that I conceptualize this is rather than Focusing on what sex looks like, which is the performance aspect of it, right? Lasts a certain amount of time, you know.

an erection, then penetration, then ejaculation, right? Really formulaic way of thinking about sex or, you know, includes this many orgasms or lasts for this many minutes. You know, that sort of way of thinking about sex. It's like rather than measuring success. in those terms, how do we measure successful, again, quote, successful sex? And the the reframe is like

Did you smile? Did you laugh? Yeah. Do you have a good time? Did you feel connected to your partner? Was it enjoyable? Was there pleasure? You know, like framing it from or reframing it from focusing on performance to focusing on pleasure, what it from what it looked like to what it felt like. And that is historically from for my work with with guys like been quite a challenge for fellas to to do because every depiction of sex including explicit ones from pornography, focuses on

what sex looks like and the performance aspects of it. Right. Very rarely do guys get given the opportunity to really unpack like

Does this feel good? Does it feel do I feel connected? Do I feel intimate right now? Do I is this enjoyable? Do I you know am I laughing along with my partner? Are we communicating? Are we having like a shared experience? You know, there's There's a lot of like this is what men do in the bedroom and then this is what women are expected to do for my heterosexual clients and it's like

Yeah, men are the ones that do the sex, women are the ones that receive the sex, men are the ones that give the pleasure, women are the ones that like experience the pleasure, receive the pleasure. And anything that deviates from that is incorrect or wrong or not. what should be expected from sex. So really getting guys to slow down, experience pleasure in their body, and I suppose like there's a

There's a building of their interoception, right? Awareness of sensations in their body, like actually paying attention to like When I feel anxious, I notice that in my stomach. Or I noticed it in my chest or I noticed in my neck and shoulders and or my jaw or I hold my breath and I f feel it in my clavicles or I'm I'm tensing in my ass and in my pelvic floor, you know, like

where are they experiencing anxiety physically, somatically? And then as they Unpack, slow down, reframe the way they approach the sex to be more about like what it feels like to be more about whether it's enjoyable or not, you know, rather than so what if you come in thirty seconds? So what if you don't have an erection? Doesn't mean that you can't experience pleasure. Doesn't mean that you can't connect with your partner. Like kind of take the emphasis on the sex act.

you know, away and focus on like how do you connect with your partner in those moments where you don't have an erection? Because to because doing one session with me isn't gonna solve all your problems. You're gonna have an issue with an erection the next time you have sex, most likely. Right. So what do you do in those moments? Yeah. And just like try and equip them with some tools for navigating

what comes up for them in those spaces. And and yeah, and I I'm and I say to the guys like, I can give you the breathing exercise, I can give you the squeezing exercise. I can give you the fucking start stop method, all that sort of bullshit. And like sure, the practical stuff is worthwhile, but a better approach is like, okay, how do I, how am I reframing right now in this moment? Right? What am I making this lack of erection mean right now? And how can I catch myself in that?

Slow down and go, where's the opportunity for connection right now? Where's the opportunity for a positive experience rather than making this a negative experience? Because what I find with guys is like as soon as they get in their head, And as soon as that mental chatter uh manifests as physical issue

sex is over, right? Or the experience is done. Like they they make it mean that sex has to be that sex is shit. It was a failure. And we're done. Right. And a huge learning for me personally was like Just asking the question like why? Why does that have to be the case? Like why do I have to stop right now? Why do I have to mean that that's over? And if I and I got you know, personally I got better at communicating with my partners and I I was able to say to them things like, sometimes I get

a bit nervous and I come quite quickly. You know, it doesn't mean that I, you know, don't want to keep on having sex with you. It just means that like that might happen. Not a big deal. I might go down on you afterwards. Or like, you know, just tell me what you want me to do. Like I'd love to stick around. I can go for round two. Right. Just like

Having the confidence and the communication skills to just be like, this is sometimes happens. Just take the take the sting out of it a bit. Don't hide it. Don't carry shame around it. Frame it as like an opportunity for connection. Again, like focusing on pleasure. You know, there there's there's the the reframe around sex that I find is like really important because a lot of guys will try to do the the skills, right? Of like breathing.

Squeezing, stuff like that, but they're still focused on performative sex. Right. And I'll say to guys like, you can have. You can have shit sex for thirty seconds, really performative sex for thirty seconds. And you can do some practices and last longer. But if you're still having Shit sex, right? For thirty minutes, it's still shit performative sex at the end of the day, right? It doesn't actually feel much better. So

How do we change it so that regardless of what the sex looks like, it feels good and it connec you know, it connects you to your partner and it makes you feel like you've had a good time and and there was a mutual, you know, pleasurable experience. That's that's typically the way that I start to frame that that work. Yeah.

It's really true because it's not a good thing. Yeah. What do we w often we think I just need to be having m more sex. more, more, more, more, more or or of like I just need to be able to get harder so I can have more sex. But to your point, why if we're having shit sex, then why would we want more of that? And also

you know, i uh one of the guys that I've worked with comes that comes to mind. The relationship was in a very rocky place. It was very volatile. There'd be a lot of arguments about sex and other things too. And so why why would we want more and the partner I remember him saying that it felt like they were a dead fish, basically, when they were having when they were having sex. It there was no movement, there was no Oh, I'm enjoying this reciprocal

No. So why would we want more of that sex? And actually erection challenges in that moment, I believe part of it was his body saying, I don't want that kind of sex and I'm gonna do what it takes until you listen to me to uh imagine him his body saying that to him, to avoid this because it doesn't feel safe, it doesn't feel enjoyable. Why so This is a really important point because imagine that guy, for example.

Why would okay, let's get erection challenges sorted, what to then have more of that kind of set? No. So yeah, totally agree that we have to reframe how we view sex. And one thing that I do with guys is they often have experiences, right? When we look back in the past of

times where things have gone to plan. Even if that's not penetrative sex. It could be we've really just felt connected with somebody and kissed and been with them in that moment, or we had an erection even though we didn't do anything about that. We have these, let's say, blueprints, these past moments in time that can guide the way for, oh, this is what really works. And this is also what really didn't work for me. We all have experiences of times where things haven't gone to plan.

So once we've done the like looking at the past bit and then moving into the present and how we address what's coming up in the moment, one of the other things that I do is that exercise is that we look at, okay, where in the past has been and this came from Come As You Are by Emily Nagoff. This book comes out. It's a great book, I'd recommend that to anybody. Where she says it's a it's like a The sexy time. Let's look back at the sexy times and look back at the times that haven't been so sexy.

And there's a lot of data helpful, lot of helpful information there and it is based on our actual experiences of where things have gone to plan. And it's clear cut differences between those moments of Oh, I actually connected with my partner, or we went out for a date, we went to the movies, we went for a walk in the park or a restaurant, and then we got home and

put some music on, the lighting was nice, these kind of things, versus a just got back from work, we both felt quite stressed out or we'd just put the kids to bed and we had ten minutes to be able to, you know, just quickly jump into the bedroom. It very different experiences, right? But what we often don't do, especially as guys, is look at the broader situation of or the broader patterns of okay, what am I doing here in these moments or that th where things aren't really going to plan.

And we just think we should be able to p perform no matter what. We should be hard no matter what.

Yeah, yeah, I one hundred percent agree. And there's always so much gold when I get guys to do that activity as well. And you're right there is clear cut differences and usually that you know it's we had a conversation beforehand or we were having, you know, we had a shower and a bit of a massage beforehand. We're like they just and it and like it's so obvious when you kind of identify it and then they go. And I'm like, look man.

To to be honest with you, the solution is just do more of that. All right. Like at the end of the day. It's like, how can you do more connection? How can you do more conversation? How can you Like I I the way I phrase it's like how can you take the s the sting or the the the the power away from like the thing, right? Because it's it's the the self fulfilling prophecy of like Oh fuck, if I come quickly or if I struggle to get an erection, like it's gonna sex is gonna be shit.

Fucking and she's gonna like be angry at me again or whatever it might be. And that anxiety, you know, you spoke about, you know, biology and and, you know, the nervous system before, like that mental chatter, that performance anxiety as it as it exists as a thought.

is putting into your sympathetic nervous system, right? Putting into a stress state. And in order to get an erection, you need to be in your parasympathetic nervous system to get engorgement and blood flow and erection and to happen. And Then we also know that ejaculation is a function of the sympathetic nervous system, so the more

par you know, the more sympathetic engagement you have, the more likely that is to to lead to a quicker ejaculation. So so both those things when you're mentally anxious puts you into a sympathetic nervous system, which either you know, inhibits directions or it makes you come quickly. So you so the thing you're worried about is more likely to happen. And then typically, as I said to you before when a lot of guys are experiencing those issues.

and they they make it mean that sex is shit and they make it mean that sex is now failed. They the thing that they worried about, which is a shitty sexual experience has happened, right? And because that's that shitty sexual experience has happened and they don't know Or they don't feel comfortable or confident or they aren't capable enough to like have conversations with their partner about it. They kind of internalize it and they go Oh fuck like.

Sex was shit. Like, oh no, like things are gonna be worse. So then the next time sex happens, they're like thinking about the last time that it happens because it was shit then and then they're worried about it being shit again. They physically have this, you know, nervous system experience, which they, you know, and so the thing happens.

and they make it mean that sex is shit and then you know reinforce and it just becomes this downward spiral, man. And so like I'll say to guys, there's there's like three ways of interjecting or interrupting that particular spiral. The first is at the level of like the physical, right? Which is your your breathing, your slowing down, your the the the the exercises, right? The activities, the the things that you can do, which is fine. The other one is at the

psychological, right? So it's like changing those stories, those thought patterns, creating new ways of approaching sex, new ways of thinking about sex, new ways of understanding your masculinity, not wrapping things up so much in like, you know, that performance. And then the third way is like the relational. It's how do you navigate that in the moment with your partner? Uh, because they're also having an experience with you, right? And so how can you have an enjoyable, positive experience?

Like I said, even if you've had the thing that you're worried about, the the the performance problem because Like having a positive experience sexually speaking is s like such a circuit breaker for like the next the next experience, right? Because you can be like, oh shit, last time it actually wasn't that wasn't bad. Last time we actually Yeah, sure I came before I like kind of really wanted to, but we had fun.

And and yeah, when that is your frame of reference, you know, the previous sexual experience, the the the lead up to the next one, there's less than that. Tension, right? You know, psychologically speaking, about like it going wrong because you've had a positive experience. So I always, regardless of like the what I'm working on with a guy. I'll always try and go, all right, let's find some way of having a positive experience with your

because they've had negative experience after negative experience after negative experience. It's like let's find And one of the ways of doing that, of course, is by asking them when you had a positive experience in the past, what were some of the things that you did during that time? Right. Like let's see if we can emulate some of it again, see if we can bring some of that back and give them an opportunity to to tune back in. And one of the ways of

helping with that is by taking penetration off the table altogether. Right? If they're worried about penetrating and ejaculating too quickly, or they're worried about getting an erection enough so that they can penetrate, well as a buffer, let's take penetration off the table, right? And let's focus on

Just hooking up with your partner or using your fingers or using a toy or using your tongue or just having a sexy massage or spending some time just getting to know each other's bodies a little bit more, right? In a way that doesn't include penetration because both premature ejaculation and erectile dysfunction A penetration oriented, you know, like if we can take penetration off the table temporarily, give it an opportunity to if I know that's going to

trigger too much tension and anxiety and and chatter, then we'll just temporarily take it away and give them an opportunity to have a positive experience with their partner that feels good, that's enjoyable, that makes them feel connected, all the things I was talking about before. And then that way they've got like a foundation for the next experience that was like

Oh, we enjoyed the last time we did this, right? As opposed to like, fuck it's gonna be a thing again and I'm gonna get stressed out by it and like, you know, and their partner's like, fucking, oh sex is not enjoyable when you're stressed out about coming too quickly or whatever it might be, like So w w you know, try and bring the that that partnered dynamic into it because like you know, you you offered the example of this guy who was having erection issues'cause their partner

wasn't really doing anything and and and and his body was trying to t kinda tell him this is the sex that we don't want to have anymore. A lot of partners also have experiences like that when their male partner is getting in their head and stressing out about erections and stressing out about coming quickly and then making it mean that it's like a failure or whatever it might be. It's not enjoyable for a lot of

you know, women in those relationships. So how can I get them on board with like his sexual journey by going, Hey, let's find a a n enjoyable way that you two can connect in a way that makes you feel good so that they go, Oh, right, this isn't work.

Right. Because exactly. Yeah, this is the thing. So it doesn't feel like strategy or the a and I think you know when you were saying there the three levels of how to fix it, when things are on solely focus on the physical of the breathing exercises or the, you know, d doing kegels or whatever it may be. The all of these things are good, fine. But when the all of the focus is on that as the solution

It A, it's not the thing, in my view, that goes deep enough to actually get it sorted long term. B it still feels like we're in this strategy mode of you know, like when guys are taking when we're taking pills. Oh how a a really frustrating part that takes the enjoyment away from sex is the planning around it. How many minutes before am I going to be having sex today if I am, then what kind of time do I need to take the pills?

w there's the one part of us that feels like, well, at least the pills some of the times they're working or it takes away some of this feeling of anxiety, but at the same time it then is adding pressure in a different way by this feeling of having to plan sex when there's the other part of us that wants it to be spontaneous or wants us to feel

Uh like we can just enjoy it. Now spontaneous sex is a myth in itself, but uh what I'm talking about Here in this context is Being able to go with the flow versus into planning. and be in the moment thinking I've got to now do this breathing exercise or I've got to think about the stop start technique, for example. There are many, many different techniques there, but if all of our focus is on that to try and solve it, We're constantly feeling like it's uh

um like a Rubik's Cube that we're having to do in the moment rather than being able to be present with our partners. Mm-hmm. And also absolutely agree this bit that you said around we think is game over when we lose an erection or when we come too soon. And it feels like, well, that's the end of it. And then we both roll over away from each other and go to sleep frustrated and don't talk about it.

And it's we're limiting the sexual experience so much, right, when when that happens. And yes, it feels really vulnerable to have conversations with our partner about this area of sex. Understand that, but there's ways in which we can do that if we learn the rot how to do that. Nobody really talks to us about how to talk about sex. either, you know, when we're younger. There's the understanding of sex, but then how do we talk about sex in a relationship?

And most of us avoid it because it feels totally uncomfortable. We feel like we could get rejected or what if these insecurities come to the surface or perhaps we've tried to talk about it and it just always turns into an argument.

Or it's more I think we should be having more sex, why are we not having more sex? So it We do our best to try and talk about it, but actually we need to learn how to talk about sex in a more effective way where it doesn't hit so many triggers and where it doesn't feel as

vulnerable because we're not going straight in with the like we need to be demanding we need to be having more sex or better sex. One of the other things that came to mind as well when we were just when you were sharing some of that was

A pattern that I notice comes up often with the guys is the moments in when our erection changes. These breaks in in If we're doing a vi one of the things I do with the guys is we're doing a visualization of from start to finish up having a nice day, going on a date, laughing together, coming home, going on the sofa, all the way through to sex and client.

And often where the areas of intensity in the body, like where the contractions come up in the body or this feeling of tension or tightness or a sinking feeling. Many of those places are around these breaks in intimacy. So it may be going from the sofa to the bedroom or reaching for a condom or reaching to have I taken the pills or the partner goes to the bathroom and says I'm gonna be back in two minutes. And we think

in those moments I should be hard all the time and the focus, like the obsessive focus goes on to I've got to keep the erection, I've got to stay hard. If they come back out and they see that I'm not hard, then they'll think that that's it and it's over. And the truth is that it there's been a break in physical connection and intimacy. So it's normal. Just wanted to touch on this quickly because I think many guys are experiencing it's just a false belief.

The stimulation, the level of stimulation has changed. We're having to navigate how to get from the couch into the bedroom. Right. So or the partner's gone to the bathroom, they're not right in front of us anymore. It's absolutely normal for our erections to go up, to go down, to go semi in these moments, but often comes back to what you were saying there around the script. That we tell ourselves I should be hard no matter what.

Yeah, and and in those breaks of intimacy as well, yes, you're totally right that the level of physical stimulation has obviously dropped. And in addition to that, there's usually added anticipation and expectation, right? As you mentioned, like Reaching for the condom. Fuck now, it's it's now and ever, right? Like the the condom's going on. Yeah, it's yeah. Well, we're going from the couch into the bedroom. Oh, is it like

shit's getting real, you know, like the the chatter around that as well. So it compounds the the the lack of physical stimulation which is also happening. So yeah, you that's a a really good point to make'cause I know a lot of guys who specifically when the condom gets come, you know, comes out is when they

struggle with their erections. So that's a really good point. I appreciate you making that. Look, I'm mindful of time, Shay as well, and I'm curious if there's anything else you feel to share around this, given that we're getting close to the hour. Well, I would say if you're a guy listening to this experience interaction or ejaculation challenges, just to know that you're not alone, hopefully through Cam and I sharing an insight into our own journeys for us doing that today, it just gives um

faith and confidence that it is possible to get this sorted. And I think for anybody listening to this, there's a part there's a part of them that knows I can get this sorted. even when the answers feel unclear, that's okay. You know, as you can see from for both of us and our journeys, there was a period of time where we didn't know what the hell to do. We didn't know who to speak to, who to listen to.

But I think the the thing I would say is if any of what we have spoken about today feels relatable to know that the guys are in the are doing the right thing, are in the right place. to be able to start working this through and getting it sorted. And it is possible to get it sorted even when it feels like we've tried so many different things and it hasn't worked. Yeah, beautiful man. Thank you for ending on that really lovely note. Where can people find you, man? Do you got any pluggables?

Yeah, the performance anxiety quiz. So I would say if you're yeah, if you guys are listening to this and you're thinking, Oh, this has felt a bit relatable, but if you're not sure for certain that it's performance anxiety or not, I'll put a link to the performance anxiety quiz, which is a free quiz ten yes or no questions that you can take that and see is this performance anxiety or is it something else?

And website and YouTube. I would say they're the other two places. So Shay-Doran, S-H-A-Y-D-O-R-A-N, but YouTube, and then Shay-Dorren.com. Nice one, man. I'll make sure that that's all in the show notes and I'll take the quiz myself. I think that's a great resource, man, and a good way to get guys to engage with the work so well done on on putting that together.

Grateful to you, mate, for sharing your wisdom and having a bit of a chat and being, yeah, open and honest about your personal experience as well. Yeah, it's really lovely to speak to guys openly about, you know, sexuality and and our experiences of, you know, sex and masculinity because I've been in plenty of places where guys don't do that. So it's nice to, you know, see that modeled so lovely. So appreciate that, man. Thank you.

Thank you. And yeah, thanks for having me. And I'm feeling I'm feeling proud for us both in this moment as well of it's taken you know, we've been on our own journeys, but it's taken courage. I think we both understand that. It's taken a lot of courage to get to this point of talking openly about it. So yeah. Giving ourselves a pat on the back as well. Yeah, nice one. A little self high five. Good job.