Why Culture Needs Boldness from the Pulpit | Pastor Sean Sawyer

I have been here before and

Okay. You look familiar, I can only do it.

I came here one time with Aaron Hill.

Gotcha.

Okay. And um and I've I've been here on a Sunday morning. It was a Several months ago. I can't even remember. It might have No, it was it was in twenty five. Okay. It was last year. Time flies when you get old. It does.

It really is.

And uh So I have been here, heard you heard you preach.

Thank you.

But it was when Aaron sent me a few months ago, he sent me one of your messages podcasts. Uh he sent it to a whole group of us in MA and um it just it just hit so hard, resonated with so many of us. Um that I that's what was like Would love to have this guy on the podcast, right? I'd love to love to talk with him more. So this is

Brickchurch.

That's right.

That's how it connects.

Yeah.

People.

He married into this church.

Amen.

Yeah, that's right.

He's still part of another church and this church. They go to both. So people are like.

Aaron Hill, who is who on earth is Aaron Hill? Brit.

Yeah.

That's right. And uh so yeah, that that message was uh was one that was so bold that I was like Appreciate that. We need we need to talk about boldness in the in the church, boldness from the pulpit. And um so but before we even dive into that, Sean, tell us a little bit of uh how you got to where you are today here, Pat Pastor in Sycamore Presbyterian.

Yeah. So let's see here. Um I was I don't wanna go like too crazy, but I was born in Memphis, Tennessee. Okay. But I celebrated birthdays one through thirteen out west in the state of Wyoming.

Oh wow.

So grew up outdoorsy. My dad was a big hunter. And so I grew up hunting, eating wild game more than store-bought meat. Yeah. Just great lifestyle was involved in the Boy Scouts.

What'd you hunt a lot of in Wyoming? Um

We did a lot of antelope. Uh there was a lot of ranchers around the area where we we lived and basically the deal was if you'll come out during the off season and shoot a bunch of prairie dogs that are digging holes in my cattle fields, you can come hunt during during the season for free, you know. kinda tit for tat. So I grew up, you know, watching

Sounds like your organization. Shadow's like, where do I sign over this?

It's like the shopping badge, exactly. So yeah. So but about that same time the Lord um Brought some my parents had always made me go to church. They didn't go but they made me go to church.

Oh interesting.

I heard the gospel, I think, never resonated. And then when we moved to Memphis, our neighbors across the street invited us to one of those wonderful, um, good old Southern Baptist scheduled revivals.

There will be a revival this week. Exactly. Exactly.

And so we sat there under the min uh under the preaching of the word and my parents uh were regenerated. They they they were converted and and I wasn't. And they they gave a big invitation at the end of it and my parents stood up and my dad's like, And you're coming too I was like, Yes, sir you know so I I went and said the magic words and got wet. Didn't mean in uh didn't mean any of it. But because of that

It's a good place to do it.

good place to do it. Um but the Lord changed my call in the middle of college and definitely made made it clear that I was called to to pastoral ministry. And so I um went to seminary and um kind of switched denominations from my Southern Baptist upbringing to a more Presbyterian style for some theological reasons and everything we don't have to get into. But the Lord put me through this period of really intense

Become one of them, man.

Yeah. Get that blue shirt. I was thirty-six years old. I was twice as old as most of the recruits and I had to go through the whole training. Wow. And but after that the Lord really you opened up the ministry. I was one of them and Yeah, lots of really great, great ministry. Love those guys, miss those guys a lot there at Eureka Fire Protection District. Yeah, it was really it was really and again it was eye opening to see the real world stuff'cause especially being a pastor

Deep sound.

And I was not a southerner. So but we had great friends there, good time and then um We had this amazing associate pastor and the church is in a shrinking town. And I and I got to realize looking ahead, this is only a one staff church. It's not a two staff ordained staff church and he is much more of a fit than I.

From South Carolina.

South Carolina from Memphis, Wyoming, Saint Louis. Yeah. This

Yeah.

exactly what I said. When the guy said Boston, Massachusetts, I was like I was like, dude, Boston's Mars. I don't want to plant a church on Mars.

Hey, shout out to uh Harbor Tribe in Boston. We got an MA tribe there. Nice.

Probably a church.

Oh no, it might be. Comment what church you're at.

There we go. There we go. So I was up there for uh five years doing that church plant and it was glorious and wonderful and hard and exhausting and

Like from scratch. When you say church plant

There was uh gr s there was a small group of about five families. Five families that was working with. Yeah. So and our highest attendance Sunday ever was I think around forty five

Where did you start meeting? Was it in a house or a uh we were in

And this we were I we lived in Melrose, which is just north of Boston. We planted the church in a town called Wakefield, and they had this old armory which had become like a community center. And they had a little separate room that could hold about 60 people in

Oh that's Like a like a national guard.

Yeah, exactly. National Arbor, they converted to a gym. So every Sunday morning they had pickleball tournaments and so we would leave our doors open and we would have

Yeah.

45 years old, I just resigned. And I was like, Man, you don't you don't you don't get to keep your career when you resign at 45, you're done. You know? And so I was like, Lord. You're the chest master, I'm just a pawn. What's next? And um we had just enough money left in our fundraising account to operate as six months of severance.

That's a big leap of faith.

It was a big leap of faith. Yeah. So the Lord showed up big time as he always tends to do. And um this church was we we were made to be at this church. This is One of the few churches that we've ever been involved with. Like, absolutely, if we were not on staff, we would attend this church. If we lived here, we would attend here. We love my Kids love it.

When did you guys when did you guys start meeting back here in this church in person?

Uh they you saw that big field on the other side of the building there. They were meeting outside there the whole time.

Oh nice.

And then starting about a month after I got here, we had a in person service as well, socially distanced. We had to register it and everything so they could track'em down if they needed to. Um

Summer of twenty.

December twenty. Yeah. So we were doing both. We did outside for for almost a whole year. But this church never stopped meeting. They o they went outside immediately. And to God's glory, we lost The people who said that this was the reason, we lost two families. We lost one family because they said we were too strict on our COVID stuff, and one family said we were too loose.

Perfect.

Perfect. We nailed nailed it. Yeah. So and our church grew during it. And anecdotally, I've heard you've probably heard the same thing. A lot of churches that are faithful to the gospel, faithful to God's word, grew during COVID. Church grew and budget grew, staff grew, attendance grew.

People were looking for those. Yeah. So many people were disappointed in their churches closing or just not meeting or whatever. Yeah, I think that was the great sh the great church shuffle. Yeah. It was of twenty twenty was uh I I got you. I mean. When I made you talk too much. Feel free to just stop talking at any point and just enjoy enjoy the cigar too.

My church made me feel like it was an escape from all the chaos. You know, during COVID.

A hundred percent. By the way, did you want a cigar? No.

I'm okay. I'm cool. Thanks.

Yeah, so man that is that is awesome. So you did this. Uh you got K

I have five children. Yeah, and they range in age from twenty-six to thirteen.

That makes pressure.

Makes a pressure of uh financial pressure and church planning pressure.

Getting to that last month of severance, forty five with five kids. That was that's a that's a was rough. That's a ball game right there, man. Yeah.

That was rough.

So, and and what a great Just testimony that is to just trusting in God.

Yeah, it really he really came through. It was wonderful. And this church is amazing. heart for their for Midlothian here. Um and they and, you know, we needed them as a place to rest after church planting and they needed us to kinda help them have a more outreaching kind of church planter mentality. And so the the Lord has just been so kind of bringing us together and we it's it's a family and we love it. And

That's never you bring that mentality, you bring the church plant mentality to an existing church. I like that. And um and we should we should say as well that You just m uh moved a men's alliance tribe to right here. And and we're we're sitting right now around the the fire pit for Charlie tribe. Yep. M moved here. And um you know, Men's Alliance needs

Make perfect sense to me.

Your messages are the Bible, right? But the thing I loved about this. is um is it's kind of like this no frill. Yeah. It's it's it's a very much um We're we're we're preaching this chapter these verses. Right. Next week, the next set of verses. The next week, the next set of verses. Right. And um interestingly enough That's that's not everywhere nowadays.

It's not.

Tell tell me a little bit about um

Yeah, so again I o I only have my limited experience. I'm not an expert. You know, I've lived in Richmond for six years now and I've attended three churches, mostly this one obviously, but on vacation, I'll attend other churches. So but With my ear to the ground, being part of the industry, so to speak, um, I think there's a fundamental principle that people tend to forget, and that The church is God's plan A for the salvation of the world.

Right. That's right. And I've I've talked with several other pastors before. I've heard multiple pastors say this exact line. And it's it's dead on. It's to your point. If the church was doing its job, men's alliance would not be necessary. And I'm talking the capital C. Right, right.

Okay, sure.

Right, not not like each individual local church. But I think there's something to that. And I would take it a step further and say if the church were doing its job

It's God's plan A and th that you know, there will there will come a time when God's plan is fulfilled and all that's left is the church on earth, you know. So made up of millions upon millions of people from every tribe, langu language, nation and tongue uh living life to God's glory and honoring him. So but going back to your question, so church's plan A and

Yeah.

Yeah, make make disciples is actually the main verb in Greek. You know, so it's it's about the church's job is to make disciples who then go and God uses them for evangelism and other purposes. And and I grew up in a tradition that did that where Sunday morning was this um Celebration gathering where the saints were built up there, but the focus was really on people who weren't part of the church yet.

Everybody loved it. No female.

Good. Because when you have that when you have that mentality, you you then pull your punches. You know, it's it's hard to preach verse by verse because what if you get to a verse that's really difficult, like going through Acts chapter five where Ananias and Sapphira are killed for lying to Peter.

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You know, like for instance, I think the the one podcast that you heard was instead of calling it Right to Life Sunday like a lot of churches do, we r we called it the image of God Sunday. Yeah. And and and I understand And I agree with the mentality that says we don't ever want to make a position on abortion seem like a prerequisite to coming to Christ.

Right.

I I I'm pro life because I am a Christian.

Yeah, nothing's a prerequisite. Everything else comes after.

Exactly. Exactly. But that mentality can sometimes say therefore we don't want Talk about these things before non-Christians. So we'll do that in a small group or in a Sunday school, but the big public meeting we we want to keep it more more generalized on. And while I appreciate that, that takes away the focus of no, it's make disciples as you are going. You give God's people the meat in public worship from the pulpit.

One of the things that I I'm I'm hearing from you that I I I get what you're saying. I would say it like this. Is you're saying that, you know, the church has got to be, you said, I think you used the word, you know, equipping the saints. Mm-hmm. Right? It's got to be pouring into training, equipping those who are believers already.

Exactly.

And do the evangelism. They go out, tell their neighbors, their relatives, their friends, their coworkers about Jesus. But if a church is catering to non Christians, like hey, we just we just wanna to bring in everybody and and fill up um and give the gospel here Which kinda like the the um

Cultural time. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, you need you need to give your guys and your gals, you know, fodder for the Water cooler conversations back before virtual work where people actually showed up at offices and had to have those conversations. You know, we need to give them something to say to talk about. Yeah. You know? And and if you're not building up the saints, then who are you building up?

Yeah.

You know, or in our in our order of service we have margin notes we tell people exactly why are we singing? W where why are you singing in general? Why why are you standing up now? Why are you praying? We we explain everything. That's cool. And let them know that hey, you want you want you to be comfortable included, but you're not the folks.

Are there are there churches out there that would say that y you think would say, Well, the place where the body of Christ meets is small groups. outside the church in their homes. The church is for I don't know, the unbeliever or whatever.

Yeah, th there are churches that would say that and and and that's a different philosophy of ministry. Yeah. And I I want to be very clear. I don't want to say that they're wrong. Um I th the The Church of the Lord Jesus Christ is bigger than the Presbyterian Church in America, the PCA part of. You know, I like to think of it more of a as a chessboard. And let's be realistic.

I think that To your question, Shadow. But if that's really gonna happen, if that's really gonna play out, those small group leaders if all the if all the growth and discipleship's gonna take place in those small groups, man, you'd have to really, really train yeah, some amazing small group leaders and a lot of churches They say that that's their answer. Oh, well, that the discipleship training takes place in our small groups. Yeah. And then you look at the small group.

I've been to p churches that did both. One it was the one that actually They hand picked their small groups. It was a much, you know, smaller church, but they handpicked their small group leaders and made sure they were equipped and all that. And I've but not to say that

I like how you said it too about different chess pieces and all all fulfilling different purposes. I think that You know, that seeker church model that does its goal is just attract the unsaved. Yeah. And get'em in here. Like I would say, like that that's not a bad thing either. It fulfill it fulfills a it fulfills a role

Exactly.

to move on and grow and and go deeper into the meat and maybe you need to graduate to a 301 level and and you know we've had this conversation with so many MA guys and they're like they've moved church Yeah. And it's not that anything was wrong with the first church that they left either. It was like, hey, that one attracted me here, it gave me the gospel, it got me involved, and I've been at it for a number of years. And now I want to go to one

Exactly. Exactly.

And we need the pawn, right? And then sometimes we're like, All right, I need to be the it's time to be the knight or the rook.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And I want to be clear, I think everybody in our church should be in a small group as well. Yeah. You know. But what what I'm saying is like as a philosophy of ministry, public worship is sufficient for the building up of the saints.

that doesn't have

But you can do more. Yeah, absolutely. You know. One of the things my preaching uh mentor taught me was that you need to think of every sermon as a baker's rack. And that you need to put stuff on that bottom shelf so the toddler can come and get a sample. And you need to put stuff on the very top so the most mature person in the room can come and get a sample.'Cause your sermon needs to hit

Every thermostat.

For every sermon.

That's really good.

So that way that way you are building up the saints, ushering in the saints, and and raising up children in the faith to become adults in the faith.

That's not easy.

So it's not easy. That's why Yeah. So

Each sermon something for everybody, that's a that's a really good approach too.

So again it's not easy, it takes it takes a lot of forethought.

We have to study.

actually have to study. Yeah, you know. So and you only have so much time. Yeah. You know, but again, God God Kingdom is bigger than one individual church and he's he's moving forward. So Yeah. So going back to the original question, you know, that's that philosophy of ministry demands that you give your people fodder for these hard issues and tell them, Here is what scripture says'cause if you don't do it, you know

That's exactly that's exactly what I wanted to talk about next is you know, a lot of a lot of us You know, e ev you know, I was gonna say like even men, right? It's like We're not all bold. We're not all confrontational. We're not all willing to be disliked. Right? And a lot of men, they just really don't want to uh be disliked by anybody. They don't wanna say anything that would be offensive to anyone.

You know, the fundamental primary sin of Adam that still resides in all men is passivity. God did not give instructions his to Eve. He gave his instructions to Adam. Adam was to give his instructions to Eve. And Adam's final exam was at the temptation when Eve

He can you imagine standing there silently while a snake talks your wife into eating forbidden fruits? And he's like you know what? You know what I I think too is you know what he was practicing in that moment? He was practicing happy wife, happy life. He was, yes, exactly. Whatever she

Whatever.

Eve happy. I'm not gonna get involved. Yeah. I'm not getting involved. She wants to eat some fruit. That's on her.

Makes me think what mu how much of a nag Eve must have been.

Right.

You know, like'cause then he's like, You gave me this woman. You know?

Exactly, he did. He tried to blame God when he had.

You gave me this woman. I I'm I I'm done. Go ahead and eat the fruit. Yeah.

But that passivity is deep in the heart of every man. I mean, you felt it. I mean, how often have you been like You know what? Oh wow. You know what? I forgot I got busy. I need to I need to go I need to read scripture and pray with my family before bedtime.

Men have yeah we have so much inertia. Yes. It's very difficult to get us up and moving. Yep. It's it's hard for us to get off the couch or to speak on an issue.

It is

Once we get up and go and it's speaking it's very hard to stop

Exactly.

We have a lot of inertia and then a lot of momentum. Yeah.

So I I know I think what what holiness looks like in a in a Christian man today is casting off that passivity. I mean, this is not being an interrupting jerk, but this is is is recognizing that God has gifted men and women differently.

Much.

Others. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. You know, I just preached on in Acts on the passage on the eunuch and I brought that up. Like your culture today, men, wants to make you a eunuch. It wants you to be passive and sit there and not use your masculine strength. And your natural sinful nature, the pastity of Adam, wants to be a eunuch as well. And so you have to. For Christ's sake, stand up and be the man Christ wants you to be and lead. Yeah.

I t I tend to hold peace. in my life at too high of a yes of a pedestal, you know? Mm-hmm. Like in the name of peace. I'm gonna be passive, you know, I just need peace.

I don't wanna cause a scene.

I don't want to cause a feeling I don't feel like fighting. I don't feel like standing up. I just need peace. You know, peace is so thank you God for peace, you know. It's just and it's like Yeah. The devil can use peace. You know, short term peace is is not as good as long term, you know, that gives you short term, you know, success. Yeah.

Short term P. Exactly.

Sometimes you need to forfeit peace for a little bit of strife so you can have long term peace.

You know, I think that one of the one of the words that we use all the time in men's alliance that we're all about is training. We're all about training training equipping men. Because I think the man who has zero training is gonna be the man who stays quiet. Yes. Keeps his mouth shut. Because he's afraid. He doesn't know what to say. Yep. And he doesn't want to say something wrong or stupid. Yep. But if you give uh you give you give us the playbook, give us the checklist, give us some training

Yeah, robust. Not nearly anti border.

Robustly pro-life in every aspect of your life because humans are made in the image of God. Well we're gonna link that into the s show notes because if you're listening to this and you're like I want that training, I wanna know how to speak to my my family, my neighbors, my coworkers, maybe maybe my my fellow church members on this topic.

Yeah, exactly.

To step up to speak and to say something. Whereas if you if you hadn't ever heard that message, um, you'd be quiet on the sideline when that topic comes up because you're like, I don't wanna

You feel deeply. You what you have you you want your passionate about this. Yeah, what do I say? What do I say? Yeah, exactly. I was I was hoping to give men, yeah, some fodder and some women to some fodder to talk about this. Um this kind of goes back to the other aspect is you know one of the keys to boldness is to try to be r you know r thoroughly Christ centered. I mean abortion is evil. We don't want to see babies killed because

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Yeah.

Yeah. And one of the problems we can have with having good theology is like, well, yeah, but as an individual, Christ paid the penalty for that sin and so yeah, I know God's wrathful over this, but Christ has absorbed that wrath. It's like, Well that's true for an individual if you've placed your faith and trust in him.

For sure.

You know, for sure. Those are signs of God's wrath against the nation. So you're trying to frick.

You you know, you you read you know, w where I'm at right now in my Bible reading in in the book of Kings, uh You see, bad kings. Yes. Uh, because God judges a nation by putting a bad king in in charge of it, and you realize like this is how God works. Yep. It's it's been how he worked the whole time since the beginning. And as as a as a American Christian who looks at well, these are our two options. These are our two options. So vote for vote for the least bad option.

Right.

Right. It is and you realize like how God judges nations. Right? Yeah. And so we are grouped together. I liked one of the things you said in that message was you don't see the ardent individualism. That we Americans have.

No you don't.

God judges the community.

Yeah. That grates against us as Americans, doesn't it?

That's not fair.

I didn't vote for Adam.

You're a part of it. Which which speaks more to the to the point that we were talking about before we started recording about We ought we we've got to be getting involved in government. Mm-hmm. We we've got to be voting. We've got to be participating because we're a part of this nation and and we can't just say, well, I don't I don't mix my religion and my politics.

What would you say to someone who says, Well, I just believe God's in control?

That is true. God has shown himself to be sovereign, but God has also shown that he uses means. and that in his sovereignty he lets us go down wrong paths and he uses our sins sinlessly. Yeah. And so we are we are allowed to disobey. We are allowed to take a a path that

I wanna because you just mentioned rights and you just reminded me I wanna ask you to Expound on something that you said in in this message that we're referring to here. Cause I I got so much out of it. I was like, that is so good, and I've never heard anybody say that that way. Tell us about that difference between right. Uh bottom up versus top down.

Oh right. Yeah. So I think I started out by by just addressing the elephant in the room, which always talks about you know a right to an abortion and bodily autonomy and all that stuff. And I and I was like, Biblically speaking, you you don't have any right. No, you you you belong to your creator and you re you and Christianity makes that expensive.

You are not your

You were not your own. You were bought with you were bought, purchased. And the word Lord in Greek is the word that slaves would use for their masters. And we we we after two thousand years of Christianity, we spiritualize that Lord Jesus. That's that's master Jesus. Yes, master. What how

We're to be slaves to Christ.

I mean it's Darth Vader talking to the Empire. What is thy bidding, my master? You know, that what do you want, Lord Jesus? And so when you recognize that that as a Christian, you know. All these translations to make it more palpable translated it servant for Christ. It's the do loss. It's the word for slave. You are a slave of Christ. And so slaves don't have any rights. Slaves exist for the privil purposes and privilege of their master.

The the more I've been um You know, hopefully I've been growing spiritually over the past few years. Hopefully I'm not stagnant and where I was years ago. But the more I've been growing and reading, I do find I do find that there is an increasing tension within me between a lot of things that are in the Word of God.

It's not what it says.

Specifically Romans.

Yep.

Specifically Romans thirteen. Like uh the the the American veteran part of me has has big trouble with that and specifically. Yeah, you know, like saying, you know, like, hey, God puts governments in charge and God puts leaders and rulers in charge and we are to obey the law of the land. And I have trouble with that. I'm like, I'm a I'm a patriot, man. I'm like

Yeah.

Oh, it says this super clear. Like the Bible is not written the New Testament is not written. Romans is not written. It's not written in high academia language. No, it's not. Right. It it's written it's written for shepherds and fishermen. And um and it's it's real clear and plain on a lot of things that we read. you know, 2026 Americans and we're like, it must not actually mean the thing that it really just clearly said right there.

Exactly, exactly. Especially you know, you think about it. Paul wrote Romans thirteen from prison. Yeah. He was on death row.

He knew what he was talking about when he said that.

It's crazy. Yeah, I haven't been there, but yeah, you can actually see where he wrote this thing from and he said submit to this ungodly emperor who is killing Christians. He's God's emperor. Submit. That that's hard. That is really hard.

At what level? At what at what level cement?

Yeah, and I think that's I think that's really the big

And that's that's where you have to that's where discernment comes in. Yeah.

Submit when they tell you not to put You don't submit when they say, uh, you know, don't read your Bible. You think, you know, we always go back to Daniel. Yeah. Yeah. Shadrach, Meshach, right. These stories of like I think when I think when the law of the land says something Uh that's unbiblical. We are called to disobey it, right? Yeah. But not just stuff you just don't like.

Right, exactly. Yeah, it's like Acts four when John and Peter before the Sanhedrin, the the council that was running Jerusalem under Roman authority, they said, We forbid you to preach the name of Jesus Christ and they said we must obey God rather than men.

That's the clear one.

Right there.

So should I take it back to our earlier conversation. Should we have taken the covet vaccine?

Cảm ơn các bạn đã theo dõi và hẹn gặp lại.

The COVID vaccine? Oh. Since it was mandated by the government.

You get you come in second with the the the pastor answer. My my like right off the gut is like It it I don't I don't know how you would justify that biblically not not taking

Right.

How would you justify biblically not taking it? And I'm that's a legitimate question. Like I'm not saying like I know the answer. But that's not a don't pray. That's not

That's why I ask. Because it's not necessarily going against you're not sinning by ta you know, it's not at no one's asking you to sin. But there's religious exemptions for it because

Right, I was gonna say we we we really weren't Told we had to. Right. It was it was just strongly encouraged, strongly encouraged, strongly encouraged, and maybe you couldn't like you know go to work. Yeah, like I had to. You know, like I so I took the vaccine. So that I could go to my son's graduation from Navy basic training. Yeah. And so like I didn't have to go to that graduation. It's not like I was gonna go to jail. Right.

'Cause that speaks how you were like I didn't want to take it just For the simple fact that I was told I had to.

Exactly, right? Isn't that crazy how that defiance pops?

Yeah.

What do you think about that? Is that stand

I don't think yeah, I don't think taking it your um Forfeiting any type of religion, doing something against the Bible

But but by not taking it, are you doing something against the Bible?

Um

If the Bible says obey the laws. Right.

And let's

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like everyone must. Yeah.

I mean I don't know.

That's a tough one. What do you think?

I'll have to consider that with the

Providential, I I did not know you're gonna ask this. I just yesterday in my own private worship I was I'm reading through Matthew and I got that section where Jesus um they c some people approach Jesus and they say, Hey, hey, have you paid the temple tax?

I may have taken it. I'll use a ch I'll use a chief. That's my business.

That was my business.

Yeah.

But I know as a Christian I need to right and and and I basically told him I was like You're a missionary behind enemy lines.

Exactly.

And and you need to be wise about that and don't just um Don't don't be don't be foolish and and fall on your sword, you know, um for something with no benefit. But at the same time, be ready and prepared to sacrifice this job and this paycheck for for someone's E eternality. Exactly. Right. And I think that that's something that that we should be thinking about.

I like that.

Um so so I wanna I wanna pivot to this question. Okay. What does what does the local church need from its men? What what does the local church need more of or less of? Or whatever comes to your comes to your mind, what do you what do you as a pastor, what do you need more of from your men?

I need from men to resist this pressure and culture that says, these things are worth giving your heart to and these things aren't, and we and so we're gonna put pressure on you to be very Stoic and even keeled in in these areas, but we want you to give your all here out. For example, no one judges a man for screaming his lungs out at a ball being taken across the line. Right. Or a car going uh driving left in a circle faster than another car, right? That that's appropriate.

You're allowed to scream and you're allowed to do it.

But there is this cultural pressure for men to like when it comes to items of faith to to just be very even killed and very mm grunt and stuff. And so like for me personally, when I'm looking for l future leaders in our congregation, when I'm when I'm scoping, I actually look for men who sing and

thing that you brought up. I had no idea, you know, that you were gonna bring up singing. We we talked about just like two weeks ago, two, three weeks ago. Um so we did our first men's alliance leadership summit and um and We brought in some of the best leaders in the country to speak to us about leadership. But we kicked this thing off. Uh with worship.

Songs.

Nice. And we and we sang um and h something I noticed or or within me, right? This this is just a a personal Dave Mills thing that I noticed about myself. was, and I'm gonna I'm gonna compare it here to the tribe devotions around a fire that we have in Men's Alliance. Um, you know, it's it's why there's no women in men's alliance. It because you're not men are not going to open up and be real, be honest about their struggles. Yeah.

I didn't care. Yes. I'm not a singer. I don't have I'm not I'm not a great singer, right? And so um I'm self conscious in a church to sing real loud because I know it's bad.

Right.

But when it was only two hundred dudes in the room, I didn't care. Mm-hmm. And I felt freer, just like I do around the fire, I feel freer. at a men's alliance tribe to talk about my real struggles. I felt freer in that room to really sing louder. Right, because I was just less self conscious and I've noticed that just like the presence of women in a room

And your daughter loves, she may not be able to articulate it now, your daughter will love memories of her father singing in church. She will love that.

It's scheduled.

That's a good point.

In the uh in the Marine Corps it just made me think uh at boot camp, you know, every Marine knows the Marine Corps hymn. And in boot camp, yeah. We don't uh we don't sing it. We're taught to yell it at the top of our lungs. Because if it was a bunch of Marines trying to sing it would sound terrible. But They that's why they tell us we're all gonna yell it as loud as we can in unison and it's terrifying.

That's awesome, man.

Awesome. Range would be terrifying.

Yeah. I'm saying like in a good way. You know, it's like um And so I would yeah, yeah, if you can't sing, just yell it as loud as you can. Because I think guys get so passionate about football or sports. They're yelling because they love football or they love baseball. So they're super energetic. if you loved God in that same way to me, it seems like you would be as passionate, if not more so, about, you know, worship.

And of course. The great battle has been won. Men and yeah, you're part of his tribe. You're part of his family. Right. Yeah. Scream for his victory. Right. You know, like I love the barbarian idea. I mean The Spartan warriors were known for their poetry as much as for their battle prowess. They uh singing was part of their training. In fact, there's a great book y'all should check out. Um it's not a Christian book by any any stretch. It's called The Gates of Fire.

Dude, that is that is one of my favorite books.

Love that book. Yeah.

I've read that book three times.

Yeah.

It's uh it's one of the few books that I've read m you know more than more than once or twice. Um man, that that book gives me chill.

Yeah.

Passages in that book are are absolutely amazing. And I think you learn a lot about men from it, and you learn a lot about leadership.

Yes you do, yes you do. That that same author has another book you should check out. It's called Um A Man at Arms.

Phenomenal. I love that book. Yeah, it's so good. I read that I read that a couple years ago on vacation, and uh I recommend that to guys all the time, man.

I give it a book to a guy and a guy I was that coffee looks amazing. I was watching you make it.

This is campfire coffee.

Oh well to go back to your Mike. To go back to your other question or your f your question, one of the other things I that I want from men in our church. is I really want them to be part of a brotherhood. I really want them to be together with other men. I have to constantly tell some guys because they they really want to be intimate with their wives emotionally and spiritually, which is great. Yes, please do that. But your wife is not your accountability partner. You cannot edify your wife.

Amen.

And tell her some of your struggles, especially in the areas that men struggle with.

You need a you need a

You need a man a brother. You know, you need a brother. And I mean, I don't know how specific I can get. Thanks, man. You need a specific brother where you can get close enough where you can tell this man, you know Me back let me back up. I took I got an internship at my big church growing up at seventeen. So I got behind the scenes in church world at age seventeen. I'm fifty one now. I I have been behind the scenes all four all thirty what thirty-four of those years.

Because

of their failures in porn. Yeah. You know, like I just imbibed and did stuff I shouldn't be doing a an hour ago and now it's time to pray with my kids at bedtime. Yeah. And that imposter syndrome just hits you. But if you have a a brother you can text in that moment.

Now that's so good. I'm so glad, you know, to hear To hear you say that.

really good.

That is good coffee.

Tribe coffee.

I like that.

Yeah.

On the website. If you're not drinking tribe coffee, you're wrong.

You're wrong. You know, I I when I when I did uh relationship coaching

Yeah.

Oh you did? You brought Kramer, man.

Drink it like a real man.

This is coffee is so good it doesn't need Bad coffee needs cream.

Exactly.

You were say we were talking about uh.

Yeah.

Commentary.

With bees.

Oh yeah, commentary.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Stretch. Creamer is like uh animated cartoon version of the Bible.

Perfect.

Here we go.

Right. Like ah it's too hard to read. Can I just watch the animated version? Storybook Bible. Yeah.

There we go.

Um I when I did m uh relationship coaching, you know, uh you know, a lot of guys A lot of times would say, Well, my wife's my accountability partner. Be like, Nope, that is not a good idea, bro. You do not want that you don't want to put that burden on her.

Exactly. Yeah.

Right. Don't make her wear the accountability partner hat. Right. And and plus a wife, the way she's gonna um handle, treat you about your your your struggle with pornography, is she's either gonna be way too soft on you about it, or she's gonna leave you. And so you're not gonna wanna be real. But a man will just kick you in the butt about it, right? And that and that's what we need.

heard I heard somebody say I'm gonna totally butcher this, but they were saying

you unload that stuff on like as a man, as as the leader of your household, you need to be that like bedrock of stability, you know, for your family. And if you overshare things with your wife and and tell her about all your worries, now both of you are worried.

Exactly. It's well played. Yeah.

And it's like she needs to look to you and have somewhat of a feeling that he's he's got this. You know, I can trust in him. But if you're and the only person who's gonna truly understand Everything we deal with as men is another man. You know? And they they can help you with that. A woman, she's just gonna worry with you and then you just have two people worrying. Right. You know? It's like you need to be that steadfast you know, that that that steadfastness in your family.

Yeah, and so you shouldn't you shouldn't I like how you said it, put it all onto her.

Important. That's right out of James. Confess your sins to one another. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I'm not saying don't share anything with your wife. Of course, of course.

Share share the share with her the thirty thousand foot view. Yeah.

Exactly. And you can share with her. I shared with so and so at Ven's Alliance that whatever I was dealing you know, you don't have to get specific, but just know that Things are good, you know. You know, give her that kind of that kind of confidence.

Yeah, exactly. Like in my marriage, my wife knows porn exists. Yeah. She knows the story that I I you know, found girly magazines when uh b when I was ten years old and so it's it's been in there from the very beginning and there's no password that I have she doesn't know. Yeah. But I don't confess to her every individual struggle because that puts insecurity in her. And and that's not that's not uh what a that's not loving your wife like Christ loves the church to put insecurity into her.

She checks in with me every night. She's like, How you been? How you doing? And I'm like, I'm either doing good or I'm working through.

Exactly.

But you know, like I'm not keeping anything from her in a secretive way.

You know what I mean?

That's a great point you br you brought up too. Men Man, your your wife better be able to pick up your phone anytime. You better be a hundred percent comfortable getting up and leaving the room and leaving your phone sitting there beside of her while you're gone. Yeah. Right? And if and if you're not That's a huge red flag, right? And you need to you work work start taking the steps with your tribe to get yourself to that to get yourself to that place'cause that's that's where we need to be.

Yeah. Go to your pastor.

There you go.

I mean the same.

And worship loudly. Mm-hmm. And you need men to be connected to other men, not be isolated.

I I look for men who are

An embodied faith. That sounds so academic. I'm sorry. Um I need men who are like Christianese. Yeah, sorry.

Live out an embodied faith. No, but you caught it.

I'm working on a doc I'm working on my doctor right now, so I'm in I'm in I'm in that

No man, you're working on a PhD.

I d I deem I'm too cowardly to do a PhD. I'm a a doctor of ministry. It's a little easier. So

Oh, okay. Easy.

Um but anyway where where's I going? force. So yeah, so like what does it mean to be a Christian? Monday through Friday at work. And I I need men who are able to live that out and talk about that, especially to younger men. Like here's how my faith makes a difference and how I do my job.

Amen.

I and I look for men who who take that that seriously. And you can usually see it by how their kids act.

You know that's a great point.

Yeah, you know, not every not every Christian kid is perfect. I'm not saying that. Lord knows my five aren't perfect. But you can also tell if a man has been pouring into his family by how his kids act in general for the most part. I don't want to stereotype.

No, I get it. And that's, you know, that's that's part of the criteria, right? I is that uh is that first Timothy? Yeah.

First Timothy.

Right for for how to sell. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. Kids kids who were faithful.

Look at the kids.

It's hard for me to be friends with I'll I know I'll either be really good friends with somebody or just casual friends. See if they parent the same as me or if they parent different. Like if some if I can find someone who parents the same that's like we can be friends.

Yeah.

Yeah, you don't wanna you don't wanna become too close of friends with a guy who's doing it totally different because when your kids are around his kids

Yeah.

You're gonna have to You're gonna have to undo stuff.

Yeah.

Right, you don't you wanna you wanna put'em around families that are on the same mission in the same direction. Exactly. Yeah.

And and the other thing I look for in men at at the church is I look for men who are Well an older translation of First Corinthians thirteen says, Love is not easily offended. And I look for men, especially in our culture where everybody wears their offense on their sleeve who just are not offended. Like you you can't offend me.

Being offended is a choice.

Exactly. It's a choice. And you shouldn't be offended. And if you're a Christian, I mean let's let's the Theology one oh one, there is nothing Anyone will ever do to you that is more offensive to you than you are to Christ. Right. And Christ died for your offense and loves you and accepts you in spite of your offense because he paid for it. Right. Therefore, as his man No one can offend you.

Yeah.

I am not sure.

Altyazı M.K.

Yeah, especially in ministry. You have to have like you gotta let stuff roll off your back'cause Satan will use that so easily in ministry. I think that's one of his biggest tools.

Absolutely.

is offense. If I can get these two to offend each other, they'll stop.

working together and the kingdom won't be glorified, like that's such an easy way for the enemy to work is

There's a couple of great books on that. One that comes to my mind is called, you know, The Bait of Satan. Yeah. Which is all about offense. Is is Satan's bait. And you know another great one is church hurt. Yeah. Um by Stephen Mansfield. You know, that one that one hit me so hard. He talks all about, you know, the Greek word there for um offense. that's used in the New Testament is the is the one, it's the same word as like the bait in a s in a trap.

Yeah.

Right, yeah, and and so that made me realize, you know, when I read that book a few years ago going through a a a season in my life where I was like getting offended, you know, and I'm like, man, this is a choice. Don't take the bait.

Yeah.

offense and Satan makes it look a uh enticing because he it he says things like You are right. You were the one who was right. This person was wrong. Now that's a that's an appealing piece of bait.

Right.

Yeah, I'm right. You wanna take that but you then it it it traps you.

Yeah. I've always liked uh I always think of it used to You'd said, uh, don't tell yourself stories, you know.

Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

It's like yeah. And then I I've I've grown to Tell yourself stories, but tell yourself a good story.

So this guy did not mean to Yeah. Did not mean it personal. Right. Tell yourself this guy's doing the best he can. Those kind of messages. Right. And that's that's where that's why we made um trust. One of our six values in MA is tr and and we we talk about trust through the lens of Uh trusting one another that their intentions were the best. Choosing right from Corinth first Corinthians thirteen about what is love. Uh believes the best. Choosing to believe the best in somebody, that's a choice.

Exactly, exactly. I I I've struck by Paul, I think it's in 1 Corinthians, might be 2nd Corinthians, where he's talking about lawsuits among believers and he's like, why not just be offended? Like he just pointed with this, why not be offended?

Just lose.

Just lose.

Why not? This guy took your shirt. Don't take him.

Yep.

All right, I lost my shirt, you know.

Just punch'em in the face. Just you know. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No. It's so simple, but it's so hard, right? So yeah.

All right, so I don't I I know you we've already pitched our cigars in. I don't know if you Took did you take the band off? Oh, okay, well... Yeah. So we were smoking uh we were smoking tribe cigars, of course.

They're really good.

Uh so I was gonna show you this inside of inside of every band. Oh no, inside of every band.

We have one of our twelve memory verses inside of every band. So when you open when you take the band off a tribe cigar, you don't know which of our twelve.

Versus getting right.

And so uh mine that I just handed him, my my verse uh was Romans five eight. Right. And so so we do one a month and so it's it it kinda makes the tribe cigar uh More smoking. The ritual. The ritual of smoking a tribe cigar together.

I like that.

You know kind of at the end that's gonna involve um a memory

Yeah, when you run out of things to talk about, just rip off your

And you're you're sitting around smoking tribe cigars with guys and then you start like all right, what what verse you got? So so since mine's And I didn't know which one I had here before we were sitting here um enjoying these. Um but mine says Romans five eight. And so Romans five eight Um But God demonstrated his own love for us in this and that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us for us. So I'm I'm safe. I'm safe from burpees.

I make a suggestion that e it should give you the first two words.

It really does help. Yeah. I've always got to be a little bit more than that.

But, I don't know, but God, it's like, okay.

Got it. Got it. Got it. Exactly.

Sometimes sometimes around our you know, like what's the what's this much man verse and line

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I like that line.

But God. Oh yeah.

Can I ask you a fun question? Sure.

Well,

Well'cause we're right. Yeah. Duh. Oh man. One of my favorite things at being a Presbyterian is that I am a nobody. Presbyterian is based in the Greek word presbytros, which means elder. Um And where the session, which is a collection of elders, they hold the authority in the local church. I'm a member of the session, but I'm not above the session. I don't work for the session. I'm one of the session. And so I'm not in charge.

That's a religious.

I don't see who gives what. You know what I mean? I'm not daft. I can recognize when people have resources typically, but I don't specifically know. So I love the fact that it

Wow.

It's not top down hierarchical, you know, if if I get struck in a car wreck and killed tomorrow, this church is gonna they'll mourn and there'll be some vision issues, but in general the church is gonna move on because I'm not that important. I'm one of the elders. I'm not the guy. That's my favorite thing about being a presbyterian is there's no pressure to be the man at the top of everything.

Really good.

It's it's so great. It really is.

Good. And that's how that's how, you know, we've built men's alliance. is to uh be very decentralized. Yeah. Everybody's a leader. And um and that's been part of my goal from the beginning is man, I don't want this thing about me. Yep. I I I'm not I'm not looking for a a Dave Mills ministry here. And if I if I get hit by a truck I don't I don't want this thing to fall apart because it was all based on you know

Right, exactly.

Everybody following one guy. dangerous and unbiblical. Mm-hmm. Um, it's also scary.

Scary.

Right. Like when you see some churches that are like it's a cult of personality. Like everybody on this guy.

Exactly.'Cause then he could start twisting scripture subtly and all of a sudden Yeah. People are off track and don't even know it.

Yeah, that's really good.

Fun question. I appreciate that.

Loved it.

I was raised too. independent, fundamental, Bible believing King James Version only Baptist.

That's that's like Yeah.

Yeah.

that that's

That's it, man.

That was coffee without any cream.

That's right.

Yeah, I was raised I was raised Baptist, you know, and then but but w we've gone to a Presbyterian church uh for years. In fact started Men's Alliance at Swift Creek Presbyterian.

Oh nice. Okay.

Um where where we were going and you know um It it's really interesting. We're men's alliance, we're in like um at least nine denominations, probably more now, but I can't name more than nine

I don't think I could.

Yeah, and so it's uh it's it's it's really cool seeing how you know you you we're in some churches that I would say are very healthy and some that we're just at that Yeah. Right. And y and you and you see that. Um so you didn't d did you did you already answer this? Did you grow up

Presbytery? I didn't. I became a Christian in a Southern Baptist church. Southern Baptist church. I'm so grateful. Man, I heard the gospel. They raised me well. They they launched me off well. Yeah.

Southern Baptist is a great denominator. Absolutely. Right. Um a and and every denomination has its problems.

Yep.

Oh yeah.

You didn't ask me if the problem is the president. Time for that.

So I said, Why is it the best?

Yeah. Well hey man, I got a little gift for you here. We got

Oh nice.

We got a whole bunch more memory verse bands. For you here.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Anytime we get a uh cigarette.

Smokerly thing.

We call it Man of the Leaf. I like that.

All right, last last comments are on you, man. Anything you you wanted to say or touch on or or end on that that we didn't get to.

Um Just that, you know what? Keeping it about Christ is key. It's one of the things I love about Men's Alliance, that the times I've been, and is it's about Bible verses, but it's about Christ. That we're we're men in Christ. And I just love that reminder that, you know, grace isn't a thing we have. No, we have Christ in whom we get grace.

Amen. Thank you, brother.

Can this be the new podcast spot?

Absolutely. You're free to use it any time.

That was awesome.

Thanks man. This was great. Yep.