Ep. 214 Aligning Early Writing Routines to Research

I'm Lori and I'm Melissa . We are two educators who want the best for all kids , and we know you do too .

So let's start with where you and your school were a few years ago and your school had been kind of on the right track with foundational skills instruction and they just adopted a knowledge-rich ELA curriculum for language comprehension . So your students were learning some really cool things about big topics like the Revolutionary War and ancient China .

But now can you fill us in here with where your writing instruction was and what it looked like at this time ?

And our children were really frustrated and we were really frustrated and so we found we started looking for something and we found a program called the institute for excellence in writing and it was a huge game changer for our kids and there was what was really nice about it .

It was really simple , it didn't have a lot of bells and whistles , it was just a really simple outline that the children made .

And then what was really really helpful was a source text , so they weren't having to completely generate everything from scratch , and that made it really really nice for them to use something to get started but then still be able to use their own words . So what that looked like was they would have a .

It was a simple text , just one page , and I think it's usually like grade level or grade level below , so just really something simple to work with .

You read it as a class and then you go through the text and you pick keywords from it , and so then they'll make an outline from those keywords and they only get three words per sentence and so then they'll make an outline from those keywords , and they only get three words per sentence , and so they make this really nice outline .

And then you take that source text away and then they use those keywords to generate their own sentences , so that way they can kind of put in their own voice . But then they're not just trying to completely do everything on their own .

We really liked how the writing was going , but we felt like we need to start writing about what we're learning , and we weren't we had . We struggled on how to figure out how to do that part .

either . I think and they're very interconnected . And I think that and they're very interconnected and I think that is probably the most important thing you need to think about when you're writing is it needs to be something that you're reading about , and it just makes it so much easier when children know something to write about rather than just something random .

And Natalie Wexler goes into that really well , so I would highly recommend reading her stuff about that .

But yeah , so that was our next step was we wanted to really get into start writing about the things we were learning in our knowledge , in our knowledge curriculum , and so then we brought in the writing revolution and that sentence level work , and what's really nice about that is that works with any curriculum and across all grades .

So that was really really helpful . And so all of a sudden , we're now writing about what we're learning and the kids are just like it's amazing what they can write , what they can write and it's really simple .

What's really nice about those sentence level work is it's really well structured to make it simple for students to generate really , really good sentences and really good writing .

So , for example , they'll start with a kernel sentence and then they'll , then you'll expand it with a question so um , for instance , like Mohenjo-Daro was a civilization , and then you ask the question when ? When was it a civilization ? So then they expand it Mohenjo-Daro was a civilization in ancient times , or why , or where , where was Mohenjo-Daro ?

So it just really you make it really simple for the students . But then they're really starting to generate really good questions and then they start automatically doing it on their own .

So when we're collaboratively writing , then those sentences that they come up with they're already adding in those , in those expansion questions on their own , which is really neat to watch or really fun to watch them see . It's amazing what children will generate when they have the knowledge and when you give them really simple tools to work with .

We'll ask a question like a because , but , so question , so why was the ? Why was the beast fearsome ? Because , and why was the fierce beastome but ?

And so that's also generating really good , helping them understand the content better and also finding gaps in their knowledge that you otherwise wouldn't really have , and so it's a really nice reciprocal process using those sentence expansion .

But then we just started generating our own source text based on what we were learning , and ChatGPT helped a lot with that . Based on what we were learning , and ChatGPT helped a lot with that , which was really nice Because , honestly , we just take kind of what we were learning and put that in ChatGPT and say can you condense this and make this simpler ?

So that's kind of really what we did and that helped a lot to make really accessible source text , because you just want something really simple for them , and it's really just kind of especially since you've already learned this in knowledge . You're really just like reminding them of what they already know , and that's what makes it nice too .

This isn't brand new information that they're getting , the source text that they're using and honest .

And so really , what I do is we stagger our writing and our knowledge so we might be learning about , like so , right now we're learning about ancient Greece , but we're writing about a narrative that we read when we were doing ancient China , so our writing and our reading are staggered .

So they already know about this information that they're writing about when they get to the writing part . So that makes it nice too . They have a really in-depth .

We've done a lot of work with the knowledge part before we write about it , so they know , I mean , and so because of that they have a lot of vocabulary and information and knowledge and discussion that they've already had as a class to pull from when they are , when they generate the writing part of it .

And , Laura , you're exactly right , she talks a lot about this idea of retrieval practice and elaboration , which writing helps do both of those , um , and the oral rehearsal for writing helps you do those as well . Um , but of course it's effective when you're connected to content that you're learning about and that's like most effective Um , and so this is .

This is so helpful , I think , if you haven't listened to that episode yet , go back and listen to that episode , because I think it'll really help kind of extend what you're talking about even more . Laura . So I have a question about source texts . So source texts are real world models of the type of writing students are doing .

Can you give us an example of what you would put into chat GPT as a command for a source informational text ?

So , for example , example , they had indoor plumbing and they had streets that were wide and straight and they had a huge , a huge community bath .

And so they , just so , when we were going through that , we just highlighted three words , so the so one of the three words were straight , wide roads , and they just put that in their graphic organizer and then , when they went to write it , they had you know , they had just had those three words wide , straight roads .

And so then they had to compose a sentence about wide , straight roads . And then , in addition to that , then they had to talk about well , why is that and why would that be important ? As their own thinking and that wasn't in the source text . So they had to think well , why would that be important to have ?

So they came up with all these ideas of why they would need that and they talked about well , then they won't get stuck in traffic and there's room for the carts and anyway . So your source text just really helps them find the keywords they need to get them started to writing their text .

And so then they're not writing , they're not rewriting the text that you just read , they're pulling keywords from that and then they're writing an informational text about what the city of Mohenjo-Daro was like .

You learned all about source text was kind of your first thing that you went into and then you figured out how to connect that to the content you're learning and brought in some sentence level work , expanding sentences and doing all that kind of work with the writing revolution also connected to your content .

So that was your first big step was how do we connect this all to our content ? But even after all of that great stuff you all were doing just this past year , you felt like something was still kind of missing . So can you talk to us about that ? What did you find was still missing with writing instruction ?

So at the end of the year we always give a writing , a writing award , and one of them is the most shows the most growth , and we just didn't really feel like we had an authentic way to prove or to show growth , because they'd all grown , of course , but we just didn't really have something , um , concrete to pull from .

And so I started hearing about well , actually , I heard a podcast , um with Karen Harris talking about SRSD , which is self-regulated strategy development , and they have a pre-assessment and a post-assessment , which is brilliant . So then we had a way to show that they how they'd grown , and then they also have .

We also wanted them to become more independent , because I felt like I had to support them a lot more than than I wanted to , and I wanted them to start doing being able to do things on their own .

And so they have these beautiful mnemonics for the children to memorize so that when they go to write they can just think of those mnemonics and start doing things on their own . And so I really latched onto that and that was really exciting to get . And so we're saying that this year this is new , but so far it's been really exciting and successful for them .

And we do all these like we do our arms like this , like we're strong , and we say power , and then they say they go through the whole list and they remember it , and then we , and then the second one is tied and that's one of the part of the organization part .

So TIDE is for informational and opinion writing and that stands for topic , important evidence , details and ending .

And then the third one we use is C-Space and that's for a narrative and C-Space is character setting , problem , action , conclusion and end emotion , yeah , so it's just a really nice way for them to remember all the parts of a really good writing and then they can start thinking , hopefully becoming more independent themselves .

You say , okay , we want you to here's your prompt and start doing this on your own and really preparing them for the upper grades , because that's when they start getting tested at the state level and having to do things independently .

So that was really , too , was just thinking about how can we get them ready for a third , fourth and fifth grade , when they need to start doing , when they have to do this on their own .

And there was something else that he wrote that I thought was really excellent . He said that writing is an art and should be taught like an art , like it's a little bit different than reading and math , where you have all these facts that you're learning and things that you're doing .

But writing , I think , is more like it requires a lot of input , and I think that's OK .

And all of us who write stuff especially really big things like books and things we always have like an editor or some and people that we ask to look at and help us with , and so we need to think of it that way for our children too , that they it's OK to give them the support they need and give them the input they need , while also trying to help them

develop those independent skills and give them the tools they can to be independent , but still it's . I think it's OK to help them .

They have they have this really cute little rocket and you make sure you have all your parts and you color it in and you use colors to underline the parts in your paper that has the right parts Does it have a topic , does it have information , does it have your details and your ending and then they color in their rocket and they see , oh , I kind of missed

this , like it's a really nice visual .

I missed , I don't have as many orange as I would like , or I don't , I forgot my ending , I don't have my red , and so then they can make a goal and they make an individual goal and they say I need to work on making sure I have an ending , or I have a lot of information , but I didn't really give my own ideas about it , my own details , and so it's

really a nice visual and a really cool way for them to see how they can grow and make their own goals . And we actually wrote them on little sticky notes and put on a poster , so the next time they write , they can remember well , this is my goal that I'm going to work on .

And there's also a thing we do called self-talk too , like when they get frustrated because writing is a really difficult process , all that writing , and their little hands get tired . And we actually had this whole lesson on .

We talked about what is hard about writing and what do you think when you're writing , what makes it difficult , and we put all those things down and then we talked about , well , what can we do if we're discouraged , or what can we tell ourselves . So they came up with all these really cute things I can do this . One said I feel like an adult .

One other one said I want to do this when I'm , when I grow up , or I see myself doing this late as an , as when I grew up , and so . And then they make those goals and and hopefully transferring those that self-talk and those goals to become better writers themselves .

And the nice thing , too , is you only give them one like they have so many things they need to work on , but we're not going to give them all that . We're like you know , you got this and this and this . Just one thing .

Just work on one thing and then you can keep growing and growing and growing and getting better , and so that's really nice for them to kind of take ownership of that process and help them see their own growth rather than just someone telling them what they need to do . So , yeah , that was a really big , helpful part .

That was new that we added to from SRSD .

So I think that's so helpful for teachers out there listening Like that's a super practical tool to put into place right away . And I think what you said is true , right , like kids often see us as these , like proficient adult writers who are really good at it .

But like even Melissa and I wrote our book and I have a seventh grader and you know she needs a ton of help with writing , like we're working on writing every time she has a writing task at home and I'm , you know , supporting her with organizers and thinking just like you are .

But what she said to me the one time that really struck me that I , what your student said , made me think about is she said well , I mean , you wrote a book , you're like an awesome writer and I I took the um , the edit that our editor did with like all of the red marks , like really literally every single line was read Like if you know what I mean .

Like that's what happens when you good editors are going to like be like , rephrase , consider this , blah , blah , blah , blah , blah . Like there's a million notes to the side , there's just red lines everywhere . And I was like you think I'm a great writer .

I was like great writers revise , revise , revise , revise and still have other people look at their work and they take their feedback or they think , okay , like this is good feedback , what do I think about it ? Where should I improve ? And she was like appalled by that . Like you know what I mean .

Like she just saw me as such a proficient adult writer who could write an email , who can write a text message . I think that's so telling . That student that wrote like I am an adult , like that is . That is like the proficiency goal , right ? Like just to be an adult writer .

But that idea that everyone has a goal , no matter if you are , even if you're the best quote unquote best writer in the class , you still have a goal to get better Right .

And I just love that idea of like everyone's working on something wherever they are , instead of it feeling like you know there's this one , you have to get to this one place and then you're done .

Well , maybe you could add another detail , or maybe you could improve your sentences , and so , like you said , there's always room to grow and even with our kids that maybe got 100 percent on it , there's still a goal they can all . They can all set .

So I love that you're instilling that in your students from grade two . Right that they're little , they're just going to be able to take that with them .

I feel like that we're setting them up for success later and helping them understand that writing is a process , not an end goal . It's something that you can always grow in . Also , seeing how far you've come , I think is important too that they get to look back and say this is where I was and this is how far I've come , yeah , and just .

And then I think the nice thing is all the programs that I used . They all emphasize modeling , modeling , modeling . And we're always modeling for our students and thinking out loud and showing them and guiding them and giving them the support they need . And and it's not , it's and there's a lot of explicit teaching going on as well .

We're not just giving them a prompt and saying , here , just go write something . There's a lot of support and a lot of discussion as a class and a lot of oral work going into it before we're letting them go and trying to write on their own .