Jose Hamza Saldaña: This legislation, and what they do… you can't bring back the people who already served for forty years. You can't bring back the people who died in prison, but you can at least create legislation that will release those who should have been released years and decades ago. And it will at least guarantee to an extent that the next generation will not suffer the same injustice.
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Jennifer Ching: Hi, I'm Jenn Ching, executive director of North Star Fund. And welcome to our podcast, Meeting the Moment.
North Star Fund has been funding grassroots groups who are fighting to end mass incarceration for more than 40 years. We've been a part of many victories along the way, but we also have a long way to go. Historically, New York has locked up a higher percentage of our residents than almost any democracy on Earth, and Black New Yorkers are five times more likely to be imprisoned. Over the past two years during the COVID pandemic, by every metric, New York's incarcerated individuals have been left unprotected. Thousands became ill, many died and more continue to get sick even today. Our grantee RAPP, Release Aging People in Prison, commonly known as the RAPP campaign, won't settle for things as they are.
RAPP was founded is led by formerly incarcerated individuals. And in this episode, our communications director Kathleen Pequeño interviews Jose Saldaña, the current director of RAPP and a formerly incarcerated New Yorker. Kathleen has been fighting mass incarceration and working on restorative justice issues for 20 years, and their conversation touches on all the ways organizing within and against the prison system challenges and strengthens our collective humanity.
I want to thank Jose and RAPP for being a part of Meeting the Moment. They are just one of one of our many grantees who have been doing lifesaving work in New York both before the pandemic and especially throughout, fighting for the freedom and dignity of New York's incarcerated communities.
Let's listen to how RAPP is meeting the moment.
Kathleen Pequeño: I'm Kathleen Pequeño, communications director at North Star Fund, and for this episode of Meeting the Moment, I'm interviewing Jose Hamza Saldana, executive director of the Release Aging People in Prison Project or RAPP. RAPP's been a North Star Fund grantee since 2015, and we're proud to fund them both via our New York City organizing grants, our Future of Organizing fund and also via our Let Us Breathe fund. So, Jose, welcome to Meeting the Moment.
Jose Hamza Saldaña: Thank you. I'm really happy to be here.
Kathleen Pequeño: When we were talking about who to bring on for episodes, you know, we have so many grantees that were doing powerful work right now, it was hard to think about focusing on just a couple. We invited RAPP to the podcast because we wanted to share how you've been able to keep the pressure up throughout the pandemic. Now, for our listeners who are on the RAPP list, you know, but for those of you who don't know, RAPP was a presence in Albany before the pandemic. Albany is where so much of the policy that keeps our aging people in prison is decided.
And during the pandemic, even with the lockdowns, even with cancelations of in-person visits for quite a while, even with all the pressure on changing instantly how we organize, RAPP kept the pressure on. I have to say RAPP was doing outdoor rallies, Zoom lobby days, Zoom speak outs, Zoom media, media events, every kind of Zoom. RAPP, you were so amazing in keeping people talking about our incarcerated friends, family, loved ones and neighbors, you didn't let up. So I'm excited for you to talk with us today about how you've adapted your organizing to the limits of the pandemic. You know, how you're going to keep it up. What you're excited about. I want to start with just some of what you've been doing since the summer of 2020.
Jose Hamza Saldaña: First, you know, we are formerly incarcerated for the most part. I was released from prison after thirty eight years of incarceration, so I left behind some very, very dear friends of mine and friends who are my age, they're 60s, early 70s or older. So when the pandemic hit, my first thought was that I'm so grateful that I am free and not in a prison cell, and I thought about the men that I have left behind. Who have, most of them are elder people, they are vulnerable, they have health conditions. And I understand fully that the Department of Correction will not protect them. Because I'm basing this on the reality that I've during the HIV/AIDS pandemic and I've seen the Department of Correction's response and it was always punitive in nature. I've seen other health outbreaks, Tuberculosis, Hepatitis C and all these serious, less friendly outbreaks in the New York state prison system were met with punishment not medical protocol. So I understood that when this thing hits our prison system, that the men and women languishing in prison would not be protected.
And sure enough, that's exactly what happened. They were not even allowed to have masks. So those who used a handkerchief just to protect themselves, to put it over their face were punished. And if you went to medical complaining about symptoms, they would not do anything about it, they would tell you to go back to your cell and take two Advils. And sometimes they won't even speak on it.
So we knew that we had to amplify the condition of men and women in our prison systems, and we did everything within our power. We got a lot of press coverage. We did small rallies, social distancing. We even did them outside the prisons to get attention. And at that time, the governor was actually parading the fact that industries in the Department of Correction have actually produced the hand sanitizers that people were actually using as a health preventive measure. But incarcerated people whose labor was used for it were not allowed to use it. They were not allowed to use it because it had an alcohol base. So our advocacy efforts in uplifting this, bringing it to the attention of the public, actually forced the governor to allow incarcerated men and women to at least use the hand sanitizer and to have access to masks, which the CDC had recommended--they didn't exclude incarcerated people from this recommendation. But the Department of Correction did on behalf of incarcerated people.
Jose Hamza Saldaña: But we advocate for two bills. We had to kind of set them aside and put our focus on clemency. Because the men and women who are most vulnerable, if they had contact with this virus, they will likely pass away. So our focus shifted from legislative initiatives, pushing two bills, to clemency. Making demands to free these elderly people who are the most vulnerable.
All health organizations are saying that the elderly are the most vulnerable and we had them in our prison system. We have thousands of them, so we focused all our attention on clemency campaign and we gave the government the names of people who we personally knew, who all have underlying health conditions. Now, while the governor did not grant the clemency to the people that we had who were trying to get out--unfortunately, some of them died--he did grant clemency to people who were not convicted of violent crimes. So, you know, we did have a victory there, but not the full victory that we were hoping to get. Not only that, we also were demanding that the parole board expedite hearings of the elderly people. So that if they’re within a few months of going to the parole board, there is no need for them to wait. Because one guy in particular who we knew, he went before the parole board, got granted parole, a 50-year-old Black man, and then while he was waiting to be released in that eight-month process--and we try to shorten that process--while he was waiting to be released, he contracted the virus and he died. So we try to call on the parole board to expedite hearings of the elderly people and expedite their release once they're granted.
Kathleen Pequeño: Great. RAPP has always made a connection between mass incarceration in New York state and anti-Black racism. Are you finding that people are receiving that differently now?
Jose Hamza Saldaña: I think because of the Black Lives Matter movement--which I mean, the Floyd murder was just so, so horrific. And it triggered something, evoking the consciousness of the nation, so to speak. And we've seen the people involved in this movement and these demonstrations, all walks of life, all ages, all genders. Everybody was just involved in this because for the first time, perhaps some people actually see what it means to be a Black man in America, what racism really looks like. And we've lived with this our entire lives. Some people have never experienced anything like that. Never heard of anything like that. It is so remote to their existence. So I think that helped ignite a consciousness that this is real. Mass incarceration is a reality for Black and brown people. That helped us deliver the message in our narrative, people were more receptive.
I think some of our legislators were more receptive because they joined the marches. So we were able to have the conversation with them. If you join a march, an anti-racism march, but then there are people right in your state, in prison, that are being murdered and brutalized. They have no cameras, have no access to a phone that can take pictures or videotape the atrocity of what's going on. Then you have to also recognize that that is a terrible injustice. And the only real solution to cure, or at least try to rectify this type of injustice that mass incarceration has created, is by releasing people. Because this legislation, what they do, you can't bring back the people who already served 40 years. You can't bring back the people who died. But you can at least create legislation that will release those who should have been released years or decades ago. And at least it will guarantee to an extent that the next generation will not suffer the same injustice. So we were able to deliver that message in a clearer way.
Kathleen Pequeño: Yeah, and I mean, to me, part of what's so powerful is that it's the same message you were delivering before, before 2020. It's just that now people are more receptive to it. Part of what's interesting I think about meeting the moment is sometimes it is kind of about like, how were you ready for a time of crisis. Like a lot of times when we look back, that's part of what we're looking at, like oh it turns out that I was more ready than I thought.
I mean at North Star Fund in early 2020, we were just getting ready to announce our newly adopted strategic plan, and we were just recommitting through that plan to our focus on funding grassroots organizing based in BIPOC communities (Black, Indigenous and people of color communities) in New York. So we had just kind of recommitted to that and we were really getting ready to be like, that's what we're going to talk about, we're going to stay focused on that, funding organizations like RAPP. And then when the crisis hit, then we were, like everyone, I think we were so shocked and there was so much adjusting to do. And we were like, wait, we just have to focus on what we've already figured out and doing it more, doing it better, putting that in the center. And so in some ways, that enabled us to do some things that not a lot of funders have done.
I guess similarly when I think about RAPP and a number of our grantees, I'm like, right, there were decisions and clarity you already had. That really meant you could just go and it helped you respond to so many different crises at once. I guess when you think about it, what about your work before 2020 particularly prepared you for this time where we're now called on dealing with so many crises at the same time? That's just kind of what the world is right now. But what about before that, what prepared you?
Jose Hamza Saldaña: We were already dealing with a crisis. You know, this pandemic just amplified it. Just remember that in prison, we were dealing with a health crisis for years and decades. The substandard health care always produced a health crisis. So we looked at the elderly in trying to address that condition of people getting sick and dying in prison. We looked at that from a real lens because most of us experienced that, most of us been there. So, you know, it was always a crisis for us. We were just able to jump right into it. And now our message became clearer. People started looking at this, the governor just finished saying that he acknowledges racism in policing. He acknowledges racism in the criminal legal system, but does nothing about it. So at least he gave validity to what we were saying. He acknowledged that Black and brown people receive substandard health care. Well, if they receive substandard health in our society, you can imagine what's happening in the prison system.
So we were prepared to use everything we can to amplify this crisis, what's happening in our prisons, and I think and we really believe that because we took the initiative on this early on, that we helped save lives. Just imagine if the people we were connected to would have not listened to what we were saying out here. We were telling them to just wear a mask, put a handkerchief on even if you don't leave your cell. People were so concerned, they were just desperate for information. They came to us and we were able to give them correct information. We were able to at least give them some kind of hope that their loved ones were following some type of protocol--early on--and that they should just have faith. But they had nowhere to go to, the Department of Correction weren't receiving their phone calls. We were their source of information and their source of hope. And this is why today we have their support all the way and our movement is actually led by families.
Kathleen Pequeño: I think when we talk about what saves lives, I think people think of kind of the heroic measures when people are near death. I think the sort of interventions you're talking about that are farther upstream where you're like, we're talking with people when no one else is about keeping themselves safe, that maybe it doesn't look very heroic, versus like heroically busting in and saving them. So yeah, I do appreciate that you all were doing that education. Because you're right, in prisons for generations now, so much of the health education that goes to incarcerated people comes from their peers, where people are helping each other to stay safe and to get through. What is one thing that you're glad RAPP didn't do in response to these crises?
Jose Hamza Saldaña: Well, we advocate for legislation that does not exclude anyone. So while it was probably more favorable with the government for us to advocate for nonviolent people, people who committed nonviolent offenses. But we maintain that principle that we are advocating for older people and people who have served long-term prison sentences. Irrespective of the crime of conviction or the length of sentence. So we stood on that fundamental principle. And in a time of crisis like this where some people were actually advocating for nonviolent drug offenses to get them out, or to just get the people who have parole violations, you know, which is fine, which is really super great that everyone should get out and not be in a prison cell to die. But we didn't leave anybody behind in our advocacy. This is our fundamental principle and we just won't abandon it even in a time of crisis. We still feel that the most vulnerable, no matter who they are, no matter what crime or conviction they have, they should have received the same type of compassion that other people deserve.
Kathleen Pequeño: Yeah, thank you so much for that Jose. And can you tell me, who is inspiring you right now? Who do you take inspiration from these days?
Jose Hamza Saldaña: I'm inspired by families, you know, families who come to us who have been lost, really, really lost. I mean, they have nowhere to go. We have wives and mothers and sisters who have incarcerated loved ones for three decades. Thirty-five years, almost forty years and stuck with the brothers, stuck with the husband. In my case, my wife stuck with me, my kids stuck with me. And you know, that's admirable. I mean, really, that is admirable to stick with a man serving a life sentence, and we just don't know when they're going to get out. But these women didn't give up even when they had nothing. I mean, they came to us as the last hope, and I looked at that and I said wow. This is the reality, when we look at the visiting room, who do we see coming to see the incarcerated men? The women, the mothers, the aunts, the sisters and occasional dads, you know, but I've always found that to be so admirable that a human being can go on with their lives and not forget a loved one who has been--really, we've been sentenced to die. But our families do not give up on us, especially our wives and our mothers. And I know my inspiration comes from that and I see that once we give them a hope that their loved one can finally come home through this campaign, through this movement, the energy that they bring to this is phenomenal. It is really I mean, they become so energized and they're willing to do whatever it takes to get their loved ones out. And to me, that's an example. That's an example of what love is all about.
Kathleen Pequeño: Yeah, it's love as an action, right? Not just love as an emotion. I'm thinking about your members, some of some of the members I've heard on Zoom calls or in your in-person events, they're family members of incarcerated people, they're formerly incarcerated people, they show up and they're sharing a truth about what's happening in New York state because of these long sentences. And I agree they're so inspiring because they're up against one of the biggest, cruelest institutions in our state and they just keep showing up. They just keep fighting. I think we can learn a lot from them. And as you're reflecting on this time, what lessons are you taking? What's the biggest lesson you're taking from the times that we're in now?
Jose Hamza Saldaña: The lesson I take from history, which really defines who we are today. You know, the enslaved Africans, the white supremacists, they tried to exclude them from the human race. It's happening today, too. But they wrote literally and constitutionally, tried to exclude the enslaved Africans from the human race. And they excluded them from anything else after that. Any rights and privileges that they shared--enslaved people, Indigenous people were excluded.
So this history of exclusion, that certain rights and privileges, it only belongs to them, it's something that we could never replicate. So when we promote parole justice, we promote it as a human right, that no one should be excluded from. And I think that when we stick to that, to me, that is a valuable lesson that we cannot abandon because if we do, we are replicating their racial policies of exclusion.
Kathleen Pequeño: You mentioned earlier the elder parole bill, your calls to fully staff the parole board, the bill for just and timely parole. As you think about 2022, what's your outlook on 2022 for those campaigns?
Jose Hamza Saldaña: Well the legislative session last year ended in June, or rather this year, it ended in June, and we ended on a pretty sour note. We thought that at least one of our bills was going to reach the floor, which means that the senators and the assemblypeople will have an opportunity to vote for the bill. Because we believed we had the votes. We have the co-sponsorship, we were a few votes short of the co-sponsorship. We have 27. We need 32. But we have eight or nine commitments, which will bring us over that threshold of 32 in the Senate and 76 in the Assembly.
So we believe we have the numbers. We just need our leadership to have the political will to put it on the floor for a vote. And we ended with them not doing that, it was disappointing. We went back and we're still strategizing on what we can do better, what we can do new and we're coming back--this session starts in January--we're coming back with a lot more firepower. We have built a coalition that is probably the most powerful coalition in the history of our state for these two bills. We have countless family members supporting us. We have just about every cross-issue advocate supporting us. We've had advocacy days that were exceptional, from gender justice, parole justice, survival justice. We're also talking about survivors. They’ve also been treated the same way, you know, they're not there. The fact that they have survived and run into personal harm means nothing to the system. So they're in our camp.
So we brought everybody together because we're talking about human justice. We have housing people who are involved in this campaigning for parole justice. So we have this powerful coalition. We have so many family members like I said. And I think that we're going to come into this session coming up and we don't give a damn about this being an election year, a rest year for our electeds. Like they're supposed to take time off because they're too concerned, their primary objective is to stay seated in their office. We don't want to do that. People's lives depend on it.
Kathleen Pequeño: Right, like, that's not the job. The job is legislating.
Jose Hamza Saldaña: Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. So we're firing at all angles. And we're not going to accept that this is an off year for them because that's not acceptable to us.
Kathleen Pequeño: Do you feel like people are making more connections now between work around mass incarceration and other social justice organizing in New York? Is that, in your experience, is that changing these days?
Jose Hamza Saldaña: That's definitely changing. We see it. And it's relatively new that we have so many people from cross-sector issues. We support them also. Whenever the housing people have a thing--you know, we're talking about a system. This racist system impacts everyone. It impacts housing, it impacts people that are incarcerated, people that are faced with the criminal legal system, It impacts people just having confrontation with policing. So we're talking about a system that we all have to come together to dismantle. And I think a lot of the leadership from these other organizations see that this has to be done. The system is like an elephant, you can't eat it in one bite. So this is what we are trying to do, we are trying to take this elephant down. We can't eat it in one bite.
Kathleen Pequeño: Yeah, for sure. And we've seen grantee coalitions come together that really are greater than the sum of their parts. They've been able to win some really important victories for statewide campaigns. You know, on a related note, RAPP has been expanding with organizers outside of New York City. And I'm wondering, how is that changing your organization and how is it going to change your ability to impact policy?
Jose Hamza Saldaña: We're organizing communities in upstate New York and Westchester and in Long Island because for the most part, some of these communities in these areas are definitely impacted by mass incarceration, and the electors are not representing them. They only represent the more affluent communities who are not impacted by mass incarceration. So we're getting these communities, building power with them so that they could actually press upon their electors that it is in their interest and they support parole justice, and that he or she should also support parole justice if they want to continue to represent them.
Kathleen Pequeño: Yeah, and family members probably face a different type of isolation when they're outside of New York City, family members of incarcerated people.
Jose Hamza Saldaña: Yeah, absolutely. They don't have the resources, they don't have the support system. In certain areas of our state, they just don't. So we're actually involved in that also, trying to galvanize them where they could organize around getting the type of support that they need.
Kathleen Pequeño: What are you most excited about as you look forward to 2022?
Jose Hamza Saldaña: I feel good about coming into this.
Too many people have died in prison. I just had a very dear friend of mine, he spent 45 years in prison, went in at 17. So we're highlighting this travesty of young people going in at 16, 17 years old and then dying in prison in their mid to late 50s. So this is something that is so horrific that we know that if it was happening to white kids, there would be mass outrage. So we're bringing this to their attention. We realize that this is a travesty of the worst kind.
Columbia University just put out a report, Death by Incarceration, the New York Death Penalty. And that report received so much media coverage. We were a little surprised, but it received so much media coverage. We had some people like candidates for the district attorney's office in Manhattan, all supporting it. They read the report. They support the campaign for parole justice. And I think that this report actually exposed what we've been trying to expose for years, that New York has a death penalty, and that death penalty is death by incarceration. And it is deliberate. The parole board has been complicit in this. They have to take responsibility for it. It has to be dismantled, it has to be transformed from a body that is about revenge and perpetual punishment to a body that values human transformation and redemption. And I think that message is coming out loud and clear now.
Kathleen Pequeño: Yeah, I think you're right about that, I hope that you and I together are right about that. In my experience, the more people understand what's actually happening in New York state prisons, the less they support them. So everything you and the RAPP Campaign are doing to shine a light on the reality of prisons is making a big difference. Jose, I want to thank you so much for coming in and talking to me for this first episode of Meeting the Moment.
Jose Hamza Saldaña: Thank you, thank you very much.
Kathleen Pequeño: I'm Kathleen Pequeño with North Star Fund. I've been speaking with Josie Hamza Saldaña of the RAPP Campaign. You can learn more about the Release Aging People in Prison Campaign at RappCampaign.com.
Kathleen Pequeño: Meeting the Moment is a North Star Fund podcast. Thanks so much to our magician of an audio engineer, Greg Lakhan. If you visit northstarfund.org/moment, you'll find all the episodes, including transcripts and links related to each episode's guest. Thanks so much for listening.