Welcome again to Episode 137. The gate slam open and the crowd erupts and chaos spills into the amphitheater of Doom. What is he talking about? This is Legends of the Arena, a high octane card combat team game from Toast Games that captures the over the top thrill of Super Smash Brothers and brings it to your tabletop for two to six players. It's a whirlwind of combos, counters and cutting plays where every card you draw could be your path to glory.
Go for brute force knockouts. Outsmart your foes with tactical positioning. The question players must ask themselves when playing is are you playing chess or poker? The strategic decisions are very real. Will you stack the right abilities to trigger a game-winning chain of powers? There is no single road to victory, only the one you carve in the heat of combat.
Today we'll dive into the mechanics of the madness and most importantly, the story that make Legends of the Arena a knockout hit for competitive players and confusion lovers alike. So pay attention as we chat with the designer Brian Toth about his journey and the journey of this epic card game that will launched on Kickstarter last week. Brian, thank you for joining. How are you? Thank you. I'm doing great. I mean, after that intro, I'm doing fantastic. That's incredible.
Thank you. I I'm getting compliments on those. I've been, I've been working hard to kind of punch up my intros. So yeah. So thank you for that and it's so good to see you. I almost feel like I need to put that in like a Kickstarter video or something. Yeah, it's, it's good to see you too, PJ. Yeah, well, I will. I'll certainly send this off to you so that you can use this video.
But yeah, so we want to talk about your game, Legends of the Arena, but I guess I should state for the records for those of you who don't know. OK, so Brian reached out to me and he had listened to the podcast, heard about some designers on the show and was like, we'd love to be a part of it. And I'm like, this is this is amazing because this is exactly what we want to do. So I am sorry that I missed getting to see your game at Gen. Con. I know that you weren't there,
but the game was. So tell us a little bit about, I guess let's start here. Tell me a little bit about yourself and what was the first game that got you into this hobby? Oh man, OK, so yeah, let's let's let's go way back. I think probably so yeah, my name is Brian and my brother and I Co designed legends arena together and we've been playing games together forever. We were both just grew up on, you know, certainly chess and then into a plenty of video games back to board games, back
to video games. I think the first game that really well, so yeah, it might have been really start with Magic the Gathering, which is not necessarily a hobby game, but kind of opened the doors to games with a higher level of art and higher production value and like kind of a whole culture and community around games and especially like competing with
games. And then I think, you know, Catan certainly hit like a like a like a whirlwind in the the early 2000s and just like totally changed how people are
playing games. But even before then there were a lot of pretty decent like game right games actually, and some kind of like a little bit off the beat in path US based games when that comes to mind is attack, which is like a pretty obscure title, but it's sort of like a risk with a little bit more going on in terms of like the the RPS battle mechanics and
technology trees and such. And yeah, I think we're both really kind of fortunate to grow up in a time when there was this just like not only explosion tabletop, but this like kind of back and forth between like tabletop ideas going to video games and then like video games ideas coming to the tabletop. And like it didn't really feel like there was any kind of limit in terms of your imagination with what what you pull off.
And I think the game that sort of really the first one that we got into like really modifying and really like trying to change the rules and make our own thing out of it was actually Star Wars Epic Duels, which is OK. It was a mass market release in, I want to say like the 2010 kind of time frame, and it was actually eventually reimplemented as unmatched, which you might know today is like a fairly big title. Yep, and. I think everybody knows.
Unmatched. Yeah. But yeah, that was like, we just, we, we played so much that game and it was designed for one V1 duels. But when we got our friends together, we would usually want to play with more people. And so we spent a lot of time kind of modifying the rules to support team play to be able to get up to like 8 people playing at once. You know, because we play a video game like say like a Toyota or League of Legends or something, right? It's kind of like asymmetric hero based thing.
Just felt like a natural fit, right? Everyone does their own abilities, everyone kind of works together as a team and then we want to play port that back to the board game space. And so yeah, very long winded, I guess history there. But yeah, games have just always been a huge part of like, how we spend time together and, like, spend time with our friends and so. Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I mean, you're talking about two huge communities, Magic the
Gathering, right? There's really, there isn't anything I can say about Magic the Gathering that hasn't already been said. It's its own, it has its own community even, you know, it's got a a massive footprint at Gencon, you know, So that's, so that's pretty fantastic. And to be plugged into that, I could definitely see, I can see that from what I've seen of the game on your website, on your Kickstarter, your videos, I can definitely see that influence
for sure. And then the other community is Katan, which we recently learned about having. You know, they celebrated their 30th anniversary this year. And just a few weeks ago, we had the CEO of Katan on where we learned that it's pronounced Katan, although you can pronounce it any way you like, but that is how Klaus Toiber pronounced it. So I promised that would do better. It's Catan. But so that's great. So you were, you were already plugged into two tabletop communities, very different
communities, right? The Magic the Gathering community versus the Catan, The, the, the, the trading hex card game, board game experience, as it were. And they always, they haven't always been, how should we say, friendly to one another. You know, yeah, I think I, I was like young enough to like not even really. That all went over my head. They were just games, like the games I'm having fun playing with my family, playing with my
friends. You know, I think like, you know, looking back on it, they actually came from pretty different places and like very different, like, like serving very different market segments, Right. And like that, you know, that's more clear now. But as a kid, you just, you just kind of in the, you just, you're like, yeah, this is cool. I like it. You know, you don't have to even necessarily. Yeah, which is maybe a useful thing for, you know, not getting too caught on like existing paradigms.
Yeah. So would you say that that that perspective influenced how you approach? Your game design. I I think so absolutely. So, you know, we wanted to make sure that we had a board game experience. Like, I mean, I love Magic, it's a great game, but the, the TCG world, the like kind of the, the evolving meta and the sort of need to consistently stay on top is it's a, it's a lifestyle business and it's a lifestyle
experience. And like that is it's, it's, I mean, it's, it's a ton of fun, But at the same time, accessibility becomes an issue just for, you know, people who want to have a couple friends over who've never seen this before. We're all going to sit down, have a game night. Like that's the experience. That's where we really wanted to prioritize like most of the play, right? Like, I think people can play competitively and like we've tuned it for that a bit.
But like, first and foremost, it's got to be like, all right, everyone, you've never seen this before, explain the rules to you in 15 minutes. We're going to play out of this one box and we're all going to have fun with it. And so that was kind of the mindset. So, so tell us a little bit. I mean, I only spoke just just the bare minimum in my introduction about the game. So tell everyone about Legends of the Arena. What's the game? How does it play 0?
Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. So this is, this is inspired by Super Smash Brothers or just kind of, I guess, you know, fighting games in general. They do fighting games in general. And the core mechanic is you're picking out cards, you're doing a little programming like 3 moves at a time and they're kind of your basics, your punch, your shot, step back, lock. Then every character has some of their own special stuff on top there. You might be a barbarian, jump
in there, spin your axe around. There's a character who manipulates time, can kind of move things backward and forward, you know, just kind of the whole gamut of what you might imagine there. And so, and some of the classic archetypes are there if you play these games like a, like a grappler is going to pull you in or a zoner who's going to stay at a distance. But even if you don't know those archetypes, they kind of correspond to other games.
And so, yeah, you pick out your cards, you put them face down. Everyone does this at the same time. And then everyone turns over the top card that they've picked and they resolve in order of speed, which kind of lets you sort of mostly placed simultaneously the the decision making strategy simultaneous. And then as you get hit, you take what we call fatigue. And as your fatigue builds up,
you get easier to push. And that's kind of how the game ultimately ends is when by people getting knocked out. And so usually when you're playing multiple people, every time you get a knockout on someone else, you score a point and the first person to a set number, usually like 2-3 or four wins the game. And so every time you're knocked out, you just kind of come back in just kind of keep rolling with the punches and it's all it's sort of a race to who can
land the most knockouts first. So it's very much like arena combat brawling with a little bit of chaos in there and a fair bit of strategy, especially depending on, you know, how much you know your opponent and how much they know you. Because there's a sort of a dialogue that evolves there. It's like, oh, I thought you're going to do that, so I did this. But then you expected that, so you did this.
I love that. So you said that you could be knocked out, but you're not knocked out of the game. Oh yeah, that was big for us. We, we really didn't want player elimination here because like, you know, it's, it's a game night, right? You, we want everyone to be in the game. And so, yeah, you get knocked out, you come back in, which is kind of actually fairly faithful to like a Smash Brothers experience where you sort of just get to keep rolling with it.
But that is ultimately how the game does end when one person scores enough. So is it, is it akin to having not played a lot of video games in my youth, but a little bit? Is it akin to like pressing the start button and just coming back in a video game with like another? Or do I draw a new character, a new legend, and I'm playing a new character? Yeah, it's, it's more like the same one just coming right back in.
Yeah. So the same like same character even because you've played those 3 cards right, you could get knocked on. The first one we actually have you drop right back in. Just keep playing the cards you already set up. So it's very immediate and like hopefully just feels like a small speed bump because you know someone else is already advancing their victory condition. There's no need to like, put you
even further behind. Is there a symmetrical victory conditions per legend that you're playing or? Not exactly. So everyone is trying to race towards the number of knockouts. That being said, because they all have their own like you know style and their own kind of moves, some of those can feel fairly asymmetrical. Like some of them really it's like 1 big hit and that's their whole play. They're trying to build that one big thing. Whereas other ones it's tons of
small hits. Other ones it's more about like a timing or kind of lining up a combo in a certain quarter. But like, although it's not different victory conditions, they play fairly differently to the point, you know, some of the ones that are the more outlier ones can almost feel like they're doing their own thing because it it looks so different from your baseline. Right. So it it's plays two to six players and there's team play. Yeah, that's my favorite actually.
Yeah, how does, how does that? Work, yeah. So the team play is usually 2V2 or 3V3 and you communicate with your team, you talk as much as you want, you share hands, you point at stuff. It's really about like kind of trying to set up your big combos together. I'm going to pull them in and then you punch them or you know, we're both going to jump behind them and turn around and surprise them, right. It's, it's really about that kind of sort of team brainstorming sort of
experience. I think one thing we did that like has has helped a lot is when one team is ready, they've set all, all their cards, they're all ready to go. There's actually a time where they can flip and that gives the other team one minute to wrap up. So it's not like a real time game because if both teams want to think forever, that's fine. But as soon as one team's done thinking, the other team gets a minute left.
And so that kind of gives some idea of the, the, the, the, I guess the, the cadence or the, the pacing right where it's like, Oh, sure, it's it there. There's a little bit of goal there to race and kind of play from your gut and like make moves that feel right more so than it is like analyze out and, you know, triangulate everything perfectly. Because honestly, even if you do that, the other team might just zig when you thought they were going to zag.
So sure. Yeah. So do they in the team play to the you, I assume you share victory and you share. I'm thinking about and I believe you mentioned it in perhaps your website, I'm thinking of two headed giant in Magic. How you share where you share life. Is there that kind of component in legends or how does that work?
Yeah, it's actually exactly it. In fact, like 2 headed giant was a huge inspiration for us. Like I don't play so much magic anymore, but my brother and I still try and get to all the pre releases and like play that 2 headed giant together because it's just, it's I don't know, it's just fun kind of getting to like talk with someone and like experience the same, you know, things. So yeah, your team shares like a
knockout count basically. And so, you know, when your personal legend is knocked out, you come back in, but the team, you know, suffers A knockout, right. And when your whole team is run out, that's, that's when you lose. So yeah, you win together, lose together. OK, that's so that was a really important factor for both you and your brother in designing
your game. Yeah, because because we wanted to support teams and high player counts, we want to make sure everyone's in the whole time and you, you know, you win or lose together. And then also you're you're incentivized to talk and coordinate and trying as much as possible to like not slide too much into that kind of someone. See the captaining thing, like on certain type of dynamics where one person's like you do this, you do that, you do that, right? And we really wanted to make it
as much as possible. Like, people have their own characters and there are incentivized to make decisions, you know, in a reasonable time frame, right? So instead of having one person like sit there and kind of plan how everything is going to go, it's to your benefit to utilize everyone on your team and their own strengths. And they're all kind of like perspectives on the board. So what was it like? Or I guess I should say is what is it like to design A game with your brother?
It's I. Mean that just seems to be rife with duels of its own. It's, it's been, it's been amazing, like it's been like for a relationship, it's, it's fantastic. We hang out so much more now, like every week. So we start working on this in 2017, like like officially on this game. Obviously the, the roots go back earlier, but that's when we're like, we're going to make this game that we've wanted to make and we had this really clear picture.
It's like it's going to be this, this dueling game. It's going to work for teams. Well, it's going to work for these higher player accounts. And that's, that's kind of all we knew for sure, right? We didn't have a background. I guess I had designed like one or two things before, but nothing published, nothing really finished. So this was the, we're like, we'll figure out how to do all that. We know what we want to make. And so it's, yeah, it's been great because every single week
we always meet. And like, that's been eight years now. And I mean, there's been some periods, right, where we made like no progress, but we'd still meet, we'd still hang out. And we used to, before that, we used to live like 4 minutes apart at one point and we didn't see each other that often. And then once we started working on this together every week, and even though we live much further apart, we have to like, you know, do video calls a lot of
the time. We still that we still hang out with. And so that's that's been awesome. Obviously it's not at all upside, right? Like sure, differences of opinion, you know, how do you some things have to be one way or the other? And over the years we've, I think we've made, I would say like 5 versions of the game, right? And four of them we throw away. And each one of those is like tough because we got like attached to it. And usually one person be more
attached than the other. And it's like, how do we come to the agreement that this, this bent, this, this line this, like this whole system we've built is never going to work as well as we want, you know? Right. So that is my question. Did you resolve whenever you had big disagreements? I mean minor ones obviously, but how did you resolve any potential conflicts during the
design process? The hardest thing has yeah, I would say, I would say the, the most useful thing in resolving the hardest questions has been external feedback. Then I don't mean we set it up like, you know, who do you like more? Like this is my idea. This is his idea. No, no, it's like, you know, as dispassionate as possible, right? You take it to conventions, we take it to play testing events.
We put it down on the table and we just like watch people play and like take notes on their behavior. It's like, do they lean in? On the other hand, are they on their phone when we tell them to talk to their allies and, and work with their teammates? Are they actually doing it when they, when they work together, do they actually land those big combos? Like are they having fun, right? Like the body language? Because, you know, we, we worked
on this through the pandemic. There was a lot of remote stuff, really hard to get cues on whether people are having fun. At the end, they'll tell you, Oh yeah, I had a good time. But like, they're being nice often, especially when it's your friends, right? But in person you get, you can just watch for the, the body cues and that that is kind of how we ultimately made those big decisions, right? It's like, you know, look like, like nobody's.
Nobody's. Liking, I shouldn't say no one, right, because even with a game that's kind of only okay, it will still have some great plays. You can always have some awesome plays, right? And so, but if we go to convention, we play 10 games and two of those games went really well and the others were maybe 2 went well, two went poorly, and then six were just like kind of smiddling that that was ultimately how we'd like kind of. And it's, it's, it's not an easy
way to make a decision, right? You kind of dedicate a whole day to this and like, you know, you've made this whole prototype and you've gotten really invested. But that is how we got through, like, the hardest decisions was like, yeah, we just have to be really honest about, like, how we see people experiencing this. So those, those neuro
linguistical cues are huge. Being someone who is in a medium where I do not get to physically and visually interact most times with my guests and almost all the time with my listeners, it's challenging because you only have their words in text. So there's no tone. There's no. Yeah, it's it's. I definitely, I definitely can appreciate and identify with that. So how easy was it? Now, I know your brother, you and your brother have been working on this since 2017, like
you said. And so it's, yeah, 88 years, right? How easy was it for the two of you to be willing to be vulnerable with each other, to accept each other's feedback? And then the follow up question is take that a step further with play testers and opening up your idea to hopefully constructive criticism. That is that's a that's a good question. I think it's something where like we keep getting better at it even when we think we don't. We you know, it's like, Oh yeah,
that was like a good. That was like a good breakthrough, right? We we totally were like we really leveled with each other there. And then it's like, that's just a start. I mean, even even now, right like now that we're. Trying to, you know, get the game out there and stuff. It is sometimes so scary to share the thing you've made, right? And it's, you know, we kind of have to push each other. It's like, hey, you know, go
post that designer diary, right? You know, like, go, go get on the podcast, you know, like, like things that, you know, get you outside your comfort zone because it's like you're trying to be honest with the thing you made, right? You're trying, you're trying to like, but yeah, so in terms of feedback to each other, right. And be more honest there. I think it's been very useful to talk about the going back to the
big, you know, goal, right? It's like, is this serving that that big goal, you know, where we had that goal, right, You know, and then also just giving each other some space to kind of run with ideas that don't pan out.
You know, like I, I spent years kind of doing a lot of basically simulations, you know, to like, understand, to try and understand some of the difficult people or places people were getting to in the game with like, we used to have a hex board and there would be a lot of kind of ways the pieces could get lined up. And then you kind of got locked into something and your play was very restricted. And, you know, I spent a lot of time analyzing that.
And then it's like, yeah, why don't we just get rid of the heck store entirely? And I was like, but I think I understand it now, you know, so it's been sure, but sometimes you just need space to be like wrong for a while, you know, and then like, but yeah. And then with like play testers, I think it's been really, I used to be so much more attached to obviously the, the feedback. And now it's like, you know, it's the feedback's going to the game.
It's it's not going to me. And like, feedback is like a gift, right? It's like the best when a play tester is like, you know what, I didn't like that that's like the second best. Sometimes it's like the best thing you could hear, right? Especially if it's early on. And if they are able to like tell you of not what they would fix necessarily, but like they're able to call out a couple things that Yep, they experienced and how it made them feel. It's like, yeah, I felt like I
didn't do anything there. I felt like I was doing the same thing every turn or whatever. Just like little things like that can just, you just, you have to hear them. You have to capture them. I do a lot of notes, but however you do it, and then just being able to like, yeah, that sometimes it just comes down to it's like, yeah, if I hear it like two or three times, like it's probably real. You know, it's not even that scientific.
It's just like, yeah, if one person says it, OK, you know, maybe they had a bad game, whatever. But like, keep hearing that you, you got to like take it seriously. Absolutely, yeah. Did you find that getting feedback from play testers, did you find having your brother as a as a partner in the design, did you find that to be helpful rather than a hurtful? I guess yeah, hurtful and helpful.
So I think like the the one thing that works super well, we're in different like spots now about an hour apart. We go to different play testing events. So sometimes just cover more ground, right? And especially not doing the same play testers all the time. That is super useful. And then also just logistically when we go to the same event together, like we're taking breaks, we're tapping each other out, like we don't always both
need to be there. I mean, sometimes we are and sometimes that's like helpful if it's sort of a logistically challenging convention, maybe with the seating or with the, the getting set up, passing out components and stuff. So it's really great to have a second person there.
I one, one thing I'm kind of surprised about is I would say like the games that we watch together, I think we almost always come away with very similar conclusions, which I think is helpful because I think we both like watch the same playthrough and then we both can't really agree what happened. That would make it a lot harder to come to some decision about what to do next.
Sure. And I think we do put a lot of trust in each other because like, when we're doing like play separately, we'll come back with their notes, like, hey, this thing isn't working. And I know it's also the thing you really liked. And I wasn't trying to like bias them or anything. I'm just reporting what happened. And, you know, I think we both been pretty open to like, yeah, OK, that's fair. You know, I know I, I trust you a lot.
And you're not going to try to like, tell them like what you think about that. That that looked pretty bad there, didn't you know? You got to trust each other. So where did? OK. So it's my understanding, so you are you're in the Bay Area, right? And I'm assuming your brother's in the Bay Area too. I mean an hour can be anywheres in California. These are the mountains over in Lake Santa Cruz. Yeah. OK. So where did you both of you
play test your games? Was it pretty much in the Central California area or how far out did you go to pool your play testers That's. A good question. So like the the first, you know, the first couple years is mostly local stuff around here. There's a fair number of conventions. It's sort of an interesting feature. I think almost every three day
weekend here has a convention. They're all small, but they, you know, I think the biggest one is Kublikan and that tops out of like 5006 thousand people, so not huge. Yep. But it's like competing that same weekend is fanimate, which is like a large pop culture con, which also has board game presence. So like just to give some idea of like how many choices you have of where to go. And then the first time we really took it on the road was actually Origins.
That was a really interesting experience because like really different set of people over there. And we came back, we made a lot of changes after that. Yeah. And you know, since then we've we've obviously online you, you get people from all over. But yeah, most of our test units been around here a little bit in like LA. And also my brother went to PAX Unplugged and played some there as well. And so, yeah, it's been mostly like big cons, right, or or the
smaller cons around here. Is there a community of play testing events in the area? So an hour away from here in Saint Louis there's Proto Steel, which is like just a three day weekend at a gaming store where you just break. It's all prototypes, play testers. I think it's like $5 for the weekend or $10. Obviously for designers, it's a little more, but is there things like that as well in your area? And if so, how helpful was that?
Oh, yeah, I should, I should shout out to Golden Gate Game Makers. If you're listening to this and you're anywhere near the Bay, look them up. It's fantastic. It's a pretty good group. It's so there's a development group called Bringer Creative, which is like a big force down here in the South Bay. They've worked on all sorts of stuff like Cartographers or River Valley Glass Works. They've had a lot of titles come
through. And so they've been really helpful in running these meetups at this point now. I mean, I was just that one last night. There's at least one a week, often 2 if you're willing to drive a bit. Some are, you know, very well attended, maybe 30 people, Some, some are smaller, maybe 8 people. And then each of the cons has a produce build room as well, often run by the same Golden Gate game makers group. And so it's, it's been an
essential, right? Like for the first year or so, we mostly were building our own thing, testing and playing it. But the moment we took it to an event, we had just completely step change in our development or like lightspeed or right. You might spend weeks and weeks trying to perfect some little card interaction. And then you go to one of these things you're like, Yep, back to square, back to square 1.
You know, it doesn't turns out that thing didn't even matter and there's so many big problems. So getting real people in front of it and especially having some of them be it's a mixer. Some people are like in the industry, and they can tell you right off the top there, they're like, yeah, this is going to be expensive to make. You're not even thinking about that when you're designing a game. But they're like, yeah, you know, consider a different component, right?
Or they can tell you, like, have you played this game, this game, this game? Because, and these are titles that you've probably never heard of. I mean, some of these folks are playing like hundreds of games a year. So, you know, so that's great. But then also people are just like, yeah, I like games and I
want to play test. And that's also valuable because, you know, you see how hard it is for someone to pick up a game if they're only experienced to game is like, I played Sagrada twice and I, you know, we played exploring kittens and like, how can they make the jump over to your game and understand the rules? Absolutely. My wife and I are both avid play testers. Awesome. We love to play test, which is cool because you get we're 2 for one, right.
So we both, while we both look at game design differently, when we're play testing, we've play tested enough and after we leave a play test session, we have a lot of conversations about the games we play tested and just about the concept as a whole. And we both recognize the importance of constructive feedback. A lot of times we see play testers who are just like, oh, that was fun and I like the art. OK. And I'm like, that doesn't help the designer at all. Let me tell you what I really
think. So like I have a notebook specifically for play testing. So it's, it's, it's funny when I walk up to a play test table, pull out my notebook, got my pencil ready and I'm ready to take notes because I, because I don't want to forget what I'm thinking in the moment and I don't want to interrupt your teach of the game. So I can tell you what I thought about this thing and how you can make it better or why it's great or whatever.
And it's really helpful to synthesize my thoughts in such a way that makes it constructive to you as a designer. And I wish more play testers would, you know, think that through because. That's how. Games. That's how games get better. Hats off to you. That's that's incredible. I mean, as a designer, you appreciate any play tester, but right, that's that's on another level. That's, that's something else. That's yeah.
Well, as a fellow creative, you know, I know the importance of feedback and yeah, so we want to give you good feedback. So that is Golden Gate Game Makers. Is that right? Yeah. OK, so guys, if you're not listening to this podcast, you should, Brian, should after this recording, go and tell all of the people from Golden Gate Game Makers how great this podcast is and maybe they'll start listening to them, particularly this episode since we're talking about them so much. So yeah. How?
I had a question, then I lost it. Isn't that great? Yeah, that's how that goes. You got to love that. So what was Who went to Origins? Was it you or your brother? We went together. We did. So what was that like? Right. It's the first time taking this thing on the road. And it's like, you know, Origins is, I mean, it's a big deal. We've devoted several episodes to it this summer. So, So really, what was that? What was that like? That first sit down and bam it.
Was it was something because it was right after pandemic. And so like we OK, we were like just excited to get out and see people and like, you know, mingle and stuff. Is that that was very exhilarating. And it was the two of us on our own. And I was away from the kids for a bit. So that was like, you know, I had really not been away at that point. They were like, I think my oldest was 2 and so it was, it was just fun. It would have been fun if nothing else happened, right?
But I think like the, I think one thing that's really cool about origins, part of the reason we went there is because we, we had heard from other people like it gets a really good level of industry presence and people who are like actually have a little bit of time to chat with you. You know, you go to a convention, like I've not been to Jen Con yet. I want to go. But even like a packs unplugged where it's like folks are busy, they're making sales like they they don't have to take out
their schedule. And we had a missed gamma and that was like kind of the other one we were considering. And we're like, OK, well, let's let's go to origins then. And it was real awesome because like people who were real industry pros con and creators would just come to the the produce spiel room and just play your game. Which in comparison, out here in the on where we are in the Bay Area, there are many more designers than there are, I guess industry professionals at these kind of events.
Whereas I could origins feel like the ratio was much more weighted towards like people would be coming around from like the OP or something and come play your game. And like, that's pretty cool. And you know, they've got pretty good feedback to give. They've seen a lot of games and that was that really like, I think also like to having having a period of time with nothing else to do but think about the game. Like you'd come home every night
after the con, It'd be late. We'd be like frantically changing these. We're like, OK, OK, this isn't working. This isn't we got it. We got to get this better. And there was one play test. Actually, I will always remember this play test. One of one of the people who's playing like was giving us feedback and like, you know, there's some positives and some
negatives. And the positive thing they brought up was this little kind of spin down dial thing we had that we just we just bought like, you know, off the Internet to just kind of work as a we weren't even thinking about putting in the game. It was just something that was sure you count like, yeah, they really like this style thing.
And I mean, this is coming on top of a lot of other feedback, but that was kind of the to the point where we're like, yeah, I think we need to change a lot about this game because the most positive thing is that we've got a nifty component and that component's not the centerpiece, right? If your game is about a component and the component's the centerpiece of the game, you're doing perfect, right? But, but it's just like an ancillary thing you happen to
throw in there. It was like, all right, we got to go back to drama. So. So it was kind of bittersweet in a way, because we had tons of fun. All these really great people, some of them who are still, like, I still chat with about the game, but we also came away with like, yeah, we have to, like, fix a lot about this game. So yeah. But that's OK. You, as you just said earlier, you were willing to be vulnerable and take that feedback and make your game better.
So, so kudos. How, how supportive did you find the network of fellow designers from Origins? And the follow up question is how supportive is the greater design community that you've experienced nationwide, worldwide, wherever you've been? You know, I would extend that out beyond designers like publishers, content creators, even manufacturers, like really, everyone's been super patient.
I feel like with, with us throughout this process, you know, because like, man, when you're new, you have so many questions and it's just like you, you just don't know. It's like, wait, how do I set up an e-mail list? How do I make a prototype? What, what do you use to cut your paper out? You know, I'm using scissors. It's taken forever. They're like, get a cutter, you know, it's like, hey, should I like, should I like, you know, get a nice version of the prototype or is paper OK?
Like what what's, what's the etiquette? Even if I'm showing up in front of play testers, what am I supposed to put on the table? And just all these things you, you know, you take for granted once you once you know all them. But when you. And so, yeah, it's been like for designers in particular, of course, like there's always slow times in this approach, field rooms and designs just get up and start playing other people's games. And it's just like, it's like you put your game away and you
go play someone else's. And that's like a really nice thing to do, right? Because you're not, you're there to work on your game ideally. But ultimately, I think most designers in my experience, like myself at least, like you probably spend about half the time playing other people's games and half the time playing your game roughly. You know, I mean, sometimes there's tons of people in there
who just want to play. But when it's slow, you know, and then some of those works you stay in touch with, like, there, there there's some folks who, like, hit something like, oh, we're actually doing some content creation now. Do you want us to feature your game in a little like they're doing like a little kind of one minute video? Sounds like that. Thank you so much. Like, I had no idea. Like, you know, we knew him as designers and they're like, yeah.
But they kept us in mind when they kind of like, decide to expand out what they're working on. Or there's some of the some local folks who've seen this game, a local publisher, you've seen this game, you know, since 2017, right. Every few months. And, you know, when I need to figure out how to like, who to partner with for manufacturers, like, hey, how do I do this? Who do I talk to? Who, you know, who's going to like, give me a like, here's this quote.
What does this line mean? You know, what is, what is VOB intercoms, you know, and like, right. It's so. Yeah, it's been like, yeah, I think it has the feeling of a much, I guess it is a small industry, but it has a feeling of an even smaller one. And that's been really helpful. Yeah, I have heard that from other designers that no matter how big this hobby is or small, depending on what side of the aisle you're on, it's definitely a close knit supportive group amongst designers.
So I'm really encouraged to hear that and glad you had that experience. So let's talk about the art. Who's responsible for the art? I didn't mean that. I didn't mean for that question to sound so oh. No, no, he's. Responsible for that art, like I asked it, and I'm like, that's not, wow, that sounded kind of mean. Yeah. So like, who's, who's the artist? What was the inspiration for the artwork?
Yeah, 'cause it's, I don't, it's not whimsical, but it's not, it's not like Magic the Gathering's got that full, vibrant, very detailed art. It's not that either. Talk to me about that. Yeah, it's it's great that you brought Terry. That was the that was like the hardest part of kind of in terms of like my brother and I working together and like what we had to decide on.
It's it's certainly not where like most of the time went or like it wasn't like the most, it wasn't like the most emotionally draining, right. But it was just, we basically agreed that both of us had veto power on the art. It was something we both, it was like super important to us and it was something that we really wanted to get right. And we had a lot of things in mind we didn't want to end up as. And that's not super useful,
right? Because the beautiful thing about art is there's infinite possibilities, and just knowing that there's a couple you don't like doesn't really solve it for you. And. You don't have a background? Absolutely. Neither have a background in art, so we didn't even have like really the language to even describe right.
So that was that was very challenging and mostly we just sat down together and we looked through art station after art station after Cara Deviant Art. You know, I think we probably went over at least 200 something profiles, right? Of just like, sure, I like this. I like where this is going. Like is this, you know, can we do more of this?
Let's reach out, you know, and like trying to even explain even once we found an artist who we thought the style was like trying to explain, like what about their style? We liked and show them a couple things that were like really helpful for us kind of to move it forward was taking art that was like not ours, right, but like kind of representative of the style and then putting on the cards and showing it to people in like a prototype form. Like does this resonate with
you? Does this kind of like like you just did this move? Like which one of these pictures kind of captures that? You know, it's like we're not even tell asking people just putting it on there and then just seeing how they if they look, you know, look past it, if they kind of like if they're like surprised when, you know, the rules don't match the picture, right.
But yeah, so how we got to where we ended up was actually kind of a Street Fighter was sort of the the like specifically a Street Fighter two. Yeah, Street Fighter two mostly like was was the main inspiration there and like, yes, super turbo and kind of I think that blended with like a modern comic book style. So sort of like, you know, it's it's got reasonably involved lines. There is some shading, but it's not like heavily rendered.
And we I think also some inspiration were like a League of Legends type thing like, you know, kind of like a like a mobile look to it as well. Right, right. But yeah, we definitely wanted something a little bit playful, a little bit like fairly colorful and a little bit conducive to kind of over the top action, right. Not too realistic, not too grounded, not to like fantasy necessarily, right. But fantastic.
So yeah, it was, it was, yeah. So it's a Christian Araba is is an artist down in LA who did some of the pieces for us. But one thing about the games, it's fairly art intensive. So he wasn't able to cover everything. And so there's a, we had, we had a studio doing some like more pieces for us kind of based on what he had started for us, you know, And then, yeah, it's, it's been, I mean, we're, we're really happy with how it landed, of course.
And like, I think it does mesh pretty well with, you know, people talk a lot about like theme and mechanics matching, but like art is kind of the third pillar of that, right? In your theme, mechanics and art all need to stick together. And I've definitely experienced games where like they actually nail 2, but not all three, right? And so that was that was something that we we really want to make sure we were able to pull together.
So what is it like? So you're designing a combat card game in an area that in an era that has there's a plethora of TCGS. You said you didn't want to produce a TCG for obvious reasons, one that Magic the Gathering has completely dominated, and rightfully so. And yet there are so many just card games. Like I've featured so many designers who are publishing combat card games right now. What? What is? What is? What is the feeling you get about doing that while everyone
else is doing? Like how do you punch through the noise? Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. Because it's like part of it too, is, you know, a lot of the games I play are not combat card games. I mean, obviously I play some of those too, right? But there's so many.
I think one thing that's been amazing in the past, like 7-8, even 10 years now really is the explosion of like thematic games or they will take, it's not just like paste it on, you know, they'll be like, we're going to do a game about birds or
mushrooms or whatever. And they just like really nail it, you know, and it's, it's really cool to like see designers exploring the space of like how mechanics can be purposed for not just not just surface level, right, but like very deeply, like, you know, food, drinks, whatever, right. And so combat is one of the ones I think it's always been relatively easy to make a game where your combat mechanics make make sense as as board game mechanics, right?
Like there's a lot of good examples out there and there's a lot to draw on. So that that's how it's kind of nice in that you have a lot of prior to work from. I think for us, it was always about having that team and like multiplayer thing, because I think so many games really nailed the one V1, which makes a lot of sense. I think most people play these games 1V1, right? It's like it's really easy to get two people together and it's really easy to run a tournament that way, right.
And the void we kind of felt was that, well, how do you scale that up to game night? Like do you always have to leave the combat, you know, battling world when you sit down more than three people? And so that was what we really want to make sure because like we have so many friends who either enjoyed these like 1V1 games a lot or they enjoyed the video game kind of equivalence. Right. And then right. Like, yeah, OK, you know, let's,
let's let's mix up a game night. You know, there's that you can kind of get that feeling of like that sort of intense dual thinking, reading your opponent's mind, you know, in in a group setting. And I think that's kind of where we sort of really wanted to fall. And I think there's definitely it's a sort of thing where it's like, we really want this thing to exist.
So like if somebody had beat us to the punch, we just want to make a game, you know, like, OK, you know, it's like, yeah, if we already were playing this game, like we would have never felt the need for it. So I think that was kind of kind of what drove us there. I think that you had mentioned in previous emails between each other in some of your notes that I thought were interesting and would be interesting to discuss.
At this moment, you were talking about the fine balance between chaos and control in the simultaneous revealing of cards. Talk about that mechanic of the simultaneous revealing and how you managed that balance. Yeah, yeah, that is, that is something right there. Because I feel like you have to welcome in the chaos as soon as you've got two people putting
shorts face down. You know, you might say your game has no luck or something, or no randomness, but you don't need to be rolling dice to have that experience. As long as you don't know what your opponent's doing. There's some uncertainty there. And that is like the thing that you sort of have to embrace a bit. And I think you can have a lot of fun, just like good old fashioned fun with leaning into that.
And I've started to play a lot of games where it's like you feel like a very little control over the outcome, but everyone's just kind of on this crazy ride. And so where we wanted the game to fall was like maybe pulling that back a little bit just because we did want to have in more of those kind of like dueling, knowing your opponent kind of feelings.
And if you can make no predictions about your opponent, it's really hard to to read them, you know, to feel like you, you got the drop on them right. If if it feels purely chaotic. And so it does depend a lot, of course, on like, the table and how well everyone knows each other and knows their characters and stuff. But for us, what we found is like, you know, we put the three cards face down. We tried two, we tried one, we
tried four, we tried 5, right. And we tried all kinds of schemes where like, certain numbers would be maybe face up in your discard so your opponent could, you know, math out a little bit what you had left. We tried versions where people could, there were a lot of effects that would restrict what you could play in certain scenarios. I almost feel like we just sort of tried everything until we
found something that felt good. We didn't have that like big intuitive leaflets, like, ah, it's three. I mean, 3 was one of the first thing we tried just cuz like, it's a very manageable number and it turned out to be right. But we didn't know that until we kind of were like, OK, 3 is good, but what about four? It's like, no, that's not good. Like by the time you get that fourth card, no one has any idea what's going on. And it's, it's a mess, right?
But, but when you only play like one card and we, we try to version that, it does feel very rock, paper, scissors. And that can be super fun. There's, there's a lot of games that do that. But at that point we felt like it was a little too, a little bit too abstract. You know, it's like one punch and if you have your block up, you're fine. And if you tried to run away, maybe I'd get you first, right? And like, it was just this very staccato kind of repetition of did you do it or not?
And with the three, we left a little bit of space there to be like, OK, maybe you got me on that first hit. But then I was prepared for maybe messing up on my first move. But then I I had a contingency plan of stepping back and then then shooting up my fireball. So it all kind of comes from the video game idea of like you, you've got your controller, you can cue up your inputs, right?
You make some movements, but you don't really have time to know what the opponent's moves are when you're doing yours. And so to give that feel on the tabletop, we wanted to have kind of spread that needle between making just one choice and making like a whole series of things that could go off the rails. And by the time you're halfway through, you're already kind of holding your head because it's it's too far gone. That's a fairpoint. That's fair. So it says that in the
description. It talks about how you play a legend. Can you tell us about the characters that you play these legends? Who are they, where they come from? Is there a lot of lore behind the game or? Yeah. That's fair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great questions. Yeah. We we went fairly lore light. The basic world is 1 in which anybody who's really good at something is like maybe the the very best in their field actually kind of gained some magical prowess from that.
So, you know, we've got like the world's best opera singer. And it's not just that she's the best opera singer. Like she can also use her voice to, you know, explode crystal glass, but on like a amazing scale. Or she can use her stage powers to kind of disappear from the arena and appear somewhere else. And so OK, we've got kind of people from characters from all sorts of different like areas, even like time periods a little bit.
And sort of the arena in this world is kind of like, OK, if you've already achieved, you're the best at whatever you're doing, you've you've kind of gain these magical powers. There's the only like challenge left is other people from like totally different disciplines who also have these kind of powers, right? And so it's sort of like a it's, it's, it's purely like a spectator sport, you know, kind of like a maybe like a professional wrestling
equivalent, right? Where like, you know, they're just kind of having fun, but they're expressing themselves through whatever they've mastered. So what would you say to someone who's who plays your game and they're like, well, this is just like a video game. I can go ahead and play video game X. Why do I need this card game? What makes it stand out? What do you say to someone like that?
I mean, one, I would take that as a huge compliment because like if they say it's just like video game XI mean I feel like hitting video game notes in a board game is so hard. Just the pacing and the tempo and the timing and the engagement, like video games, they get a lot of that for free because they have so much control over the the display and the graphics, the animation, the sound.
It's a very immersive thing, you know, and if someone's like you're bored and you can feel like a video game, I feel like, yeah. But to address the second-half of the question, they're like, Oh yeah. Especially when we're playing, actually moving back a little bit, we're playing with like younger audiences, right?
That's like one of my favorite play tests to watch is like when like a like a 13 year old or 14 year old is playing because like they're kind of in that place where they maybe didn't set out. They're they're not they haven't like chosen. They haven't like chosen like I'm a board gamer. They're just playing games and they all get stack ranked in their mind. Like I like this game, I like
that game, I like this game. And it's like, it's like when when those people really engage with it, I love it. Like it's like, this is this is great because it's like they're comparing this directly against Fortnite or they're comparing this directly against among us, whatever, you know, and like, right. But yeah, so, but to the answer, the second-half of the question, like, you know, why would I just
go play video game instead? I think a lot of that comes down to, I mean, for the older folks, it's reflexes, right? Like my fingers do not move that fast anymore. Like the the level of like time and discipline it takes to be good at a game like Super Smash Brothers or something. It's that's gone away from me. So, you know, for for me, it's like, yeah, that, that. And then it's also about, you know, different skill levels, right? Like having a bit of that leveling factor.
It's like if somebody needs to take a long time to pick out their moves and stuff. Easy to do in a tabletop game. And it's, it's about the social aspect as well. Like you might sit down, play a game for, for an hour, but hang out for two hours, you know, right. Video game can also be social. You know, I've done plenty of like couch stuff, couch stuff, but it's a different like barrier to entry. And like you need to have a game console, controllers, TV, you know, sure.
So yeah, I really, I would say like mostly I'd be, I'm super excited if people like, feel like it hits the same notes because it's like, yeah, that's what I want to bring to the tabletop. What's the recommended age group? Like how young for this game? Yeah, the box says 14 plus and I think I've every fortune we've tested with it like had had no problem whatsoever.
I think in general most people who have like because that age have like played video games at all, like immediately have a pretty good idea what's going on. Certainly younger, younger people played it all the way down to like 10 or so. And it just depends on it.
I don't want to say it's like a text heavy game, but relatively speaking, you know, there, there are moves that require a couple sentences to describe and there's like a bit of a like, I think this oddly like mid weight game, you know, in in the sense of like it could, there are lighter, there are lighter ways to do this kind of game, but then you lose out on some of the cinematics, some of the like wackier stuff. And we wanted to learn more into that.
So yeah, I think generally speaking, it's yeah. So for parents who have children that are preteen to early teen years, who are maybe playing a lot of video games and they're looking for a analog shared experience with their kids at the table, your game seems to be compatible with that. Parents can play this with their kids and the kids can pick up on it because if they can reference it to what they already know. And so that seems to be encouraging of that family interaction. Absolutely.
But but you have to be prepared to lose like your kids are going to be sure. I don't know how to put, I don't know how to tell you this. Like your kids are probably way better at this sort of game than you are. And you know, that's OK, you know, but as long as you're prepared for that because you know, we've tested with plenty of families and stuff and I don't, I'm not saying I've got a stat, but I think the kids are beating the parents like I don't
80% of the time. So as long as you're OK with that. OK, there you go. All right, well, that, that's all that I've got for you. Is there anything, any other final thoughts, final ideas that you want to share? Well, yeah, thank you so much for for having me on. That's that's awesome. And you know, it's been, I don't know, like, I guess, I guess I would say to people who are like in the position of like maybe you have some friends you play with. Maybe it's maybe it's your brother, sister.
And you're like, you know, we could we could make our own game. We could make something, you know, this is better than this or, you know, we love what this is doing, but it's we want to take it further. You can totally do it. You know, I would say I would encourage you to try like the sooner you get in front of someone outside your group, the better, you know, find that local group, find the find the Potter spiel, finds the convention, you know, get get it out of your heads.
But at the same time, it's like, it's not, I think I forget who said this, so I won't attempt to quote them exactly, but the paraphrase is kind of the taste comes before your ability to like execute. You know, like, like you can tell something isn't quite right or you can tell something isn't the way you want it to be before you're able to make the thing
you want. And so like you spend a while being very frustrated by the thing you're making because you're like, this isn't, this isn't as good. Why isn't it good? And it's not because your taste is wrong. It's because you're learning how to like make that thing. And that's something I've definitely felt, but like, you know, trust your taste, right? Because like, that's right. That's the part that like is coming from all your experiences at that point and is like super
valid. And then I guess to the the other thing I want to say is, you know, to people who are out there trying to like, maybe maybe play testing games, looking at games, approach fields are like wondering, you know, like sort of, you know, wonder one about maybe Legends Arena or, you know, whatever game you see, like, you know, definitely, definitely come say hi.
You know, like we've been talking a lot here about all the people who've who've helped us in the industry and like, you know, all the people we've connected with and how sometimes those people like end up making their own relationships. Like definitely, yeah, definitely. Just come, come, come say hi. And like Chad, I think when I before I was a designer, I didn't really realize how like, you know, small the whole world was.
And now it's like, yeah, it's like if there's a game I like and I and I see a designer, you know, I'm absolutely going to go just like go say hi and stuff because I know like, yeah, it's, it's the coolest thing when somebody wants to talk about your creation with you. So. Right, absolutely. I get that. I get that. So, so the episode is going to
drop. At the time of recording, it hasn't launched, but you'll notice that I did mention last week is when it launched because I believe that's correct. This episode drops on September 3rd. So tell everyone where they can find Legends of the Arena where they can find you on all the socials. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Thanks, VJ. That's right. Yeah. So launch date was August 26th.
You can find us on Kickstarter, look for Legends of the Arena, and we're at Tooth Games on Instagram, Facebook, Discord. Yeah, we got we got a bunch of them. And so yeah, come, come drops a line and say hi, be happy to chat with you. Yeah. And so to be fair to all of my friends in New Orleans who are used to Toth being spelled with an H, this is Toth. This is Brian's family name. This is not named after the Egyptian God Toth, who is the messenger of the gods in
Egyptian mythology. So, you know, being that I'm from Louisiana, my Louisiana gaming friends will know that's where I went right away. I was like, oh, Tooth Game. Oh, that's his last name. Oh, there's no H Yeah. That's a deep cut there. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, not. That that is where my head went. And I know that some of my friends will go there as well, so clear up that. But yeah, you can definitely find them on Instagram. So guys, make sure to hit the like and subscribe button, please.
We're really close to our one year goal for subscribers and we'll hit 100 hundred subscribers and then we're going to move on to year. Two Big things coming. Once again, Brian, thank you for joining me. This was a great conversation. I always love to hear the first time designer perspective, especially with everything that's been going on globally right now. So guys, be kind to each other and let's continue to play more games.