Hey guys, and welcome to episode 123 of Meeple to Meeple Publishing on hard Mode. As always, I'm PJ. And So what we're going to do is today we're going to talk about trying to publish your first game in this period of Division and Discord and all of the grossness that's around. But we're going to have a positive message for you. I've got Sean and Michael from Glasshouse Games. Sean, Mike, how are you guys doing? We are. Well, I can't speak from you, but I am. Well, I'm great.
I'm great. I'm happy to be here. Thank you, PJ for having us. Yeah, thanks for having us. This is. Great. Yeah, thanks for being on. I'm really interested to just talk to you guys. I've got so many questions about y'all, so many questions. But I guess we should let's get get it out of the way. Why did I invite you guys on? Right. So y'all really like Launch a game called Whisker Wars on May 13th, correct?
Excellent. So I thought it was really interesting because everything that's happening right now, you are entering, you're entering both the game community and the game industry. So you know you're seeing it from you've got 2 lenses that you're looking at this from 1 as a business and another as a gamer, right? So who wants to start off and talk a little bit about that? I I'm happy to. You want to pop into it?
Yeah. So. Yeah. So Sean and I and Logan, who's not here, our third, our brain behind the operation, we're all gamers at heart. So we've been a part of the gaming community for as long as we can remember. Start of the video games, then got at the tabletop. So we are super happy to be here. It's the best community I think I've ever been a part of. And now we get to hopefully one day make games for that same community we've got to enjoy for so long.
Yeah. So it's a huge motivating factor for us to go forward to your sort of question. It is a unfortunately volatile moment in the industry with the sort of state of the worldwide economy and everything that's kind of going on, it's hard to avoid. So there is a big sort of question mark on how we are proceeding forward. Why now is a big one. We kind of get a lot, a lot of people don't think it's like, oh, why are you choosing right now?
We've chosen this sort of time frame a long time ago. Sure. We've been building up to this moment and thankfully the ramp has been great. We've had this kind of really motivating snowball effect of just like growing community around us and people were really supportive. So the moment feels right for us. Can't say this is the same for everyone across the board. And Sean, I can, I can see you're itching for. Yeah, I do. I mean, I, this always happens where you say something happens.
I want to piggyback off that. I was gonna like add to this just, and I think we can talk about more of this later, but the community itself. And yes, grew up in games, but like intentionally participating in the community, right, right. Has led to interactions and relationships that are so uplifting and positive that I think it would take a lot more than what's going on right now for us to be deterred from
participating in the industry. The support we've gotten, the feedback back, the encouragement, Yeah, it's gonna take a lot. I think it's gonna take a lot more than. And this is not to discount. Yeah, the industry, absolutely, absolutely. But like, we want in and and it's for the like the people. Like I love games. There's a million great games out there. I'm never gonna play them all, but I would like to meet everybody and like, play games
with those people. So like if right now that means fighting through an uncomfortable situation with our launch, then I'm still happy to do it. I love it. Sean, tell me, did you also like Michael start in video games or how did how did your journey begin? My parents hated video games. They're like no video games, Never, ever. And then my uncle brought home APS 2 and that was the answer.
Little bit of yes, a little bit. I don't know if my mic is too loud, but a little bit of yes, a little bit of no. My dad was a big chess player, so he taught, He taught. I have two younger brothers, so he taught me chess and then I taught them chess from a really young age. I'm still not great at it. It's the cruel mistress. Yeah, I love playing, but it's not always, it doesn't always love me back. So I started early with logic
games and stuff like that. And then like also diving early the into fantasy, like Lord of the Rings and Star Wars were huge. I grew up on those. So it was always in the lexicon of my upbringing. I played Magic the gaping before I knew how to play. I would just look at the cards and then be like, my dragon is obviously bigger than your dragon. And there we go. I win and my brothers be like,
that's not fair. I won so so it was all there and then yes and then like video games came in and just the love of play was huge, big deal. Like the love of play. And it still remains something I hold very dearly because it's that one moment where you and I can relate and we can relate outside of reality and still in a healthy way, right, right. Without it being like, you know, there are unhealthy ways to relate outside of reality where you just kind of absolutely off
on the range. But then. Absolutely. This can be something healthy we do together and something that actually contributes to our in real life relationship, right. That has no real stakes other than the king is missing who shall claim the the throne kind of thing, Yeah. I love this. That is, that is great. And I have a follow up question. But before that, before that, I'm not going to disappoint everyone. I have a quote from an ancient philosopher that's relevant to what you just said.
You were talking about play has always been in your life and you love play and everything. So this is an amazing quote from the Greek philosopher Plato. He said that you can discover more about a person from an hour of play than you can from a year of conversation. I love. That. Right, could not be more true. Play any campaign of D&D or any TTRPG ever. You are going to peel back so many layers of someones persona so much faster than. Actually. Friends in the. That is why.
That is why I'm maintain that you can't just approach the hobby and separate the people from it, right? I think it was couple, couple conversations episodes ago with Laura. We were talking about community unity and we talked about our world views and forming how we approach games. With that in mind. Sean's world view was defined by the game of chess and other logic games. So I'm really curious about
that. I'm curious about that relationship, what either soft skills or any critical thinking that you've developed through from childhood to now that you have found useful in trying to publish your first game in this period. That's, I really appreciate that question cuz it's fascinating to me. I hadn't ever thought about that.
Like, I guess our upbringings are very much shaped by what we, well, obviously what we consume, but then like how we play, where we watch video games, board games, whatever, movies, books. It's funny, I'm caught by this question because Mike's our logic guy. Mike does the game mechanics. I was gonna say I have a This is a great question and I, without even ever thinking about it before the question was asked, know the answer to what mine is. I was. I was. Are you gonna guess?
No, I'm. Not gonna get this for you. I was gonna relate. I was gonna say go ahead and then I'll follow. Up I I was raised competitively 100% of the youngest of five siblings. I played a bunch of sports growing up. So my competitive nature seeps into my very persona regardless of the type of game I play. Friendly competition, of course, nothing too, too crazy. But as sort of Sean is saying, as being the sort of logic scheme, mechanic, brain behind the operation, in a way we all are.
But like, I like to take that as like my slice of priority that definitely fuels my portion of what I do. Or just like us pushing forward as a company or as a business or as a game publishing in an unknown time. It's like I see the challenge and just cannot help but want to overcome it no matter how hard it seems like. So yeah, I'm gonna interrupt you for a second because Mike is. Mike is like, hey, yeah, I'm your friend.
And then you play and he looks, he moves into, he moves your friend, and then he says you sit down at any game. It could be Uno, it could be Twilight Imperium. He's gonna want to destroy you on a molecular level for sure. And then and then, and then if he doesn't win, no offense, Mike, if you don't win, you get upset. It's like. It's all in good taste. It's all in good taste. We'll play a game that we made ourselves and he's like, this game's terrible. I lost. This game's horrible.
Who made this game? I have a feeling, I have a feeling that if Michael and I are at a game table together, I'm going to frustrate Mike so much because I find a way of taking a competitive game and turning it into a cooperative game. CJ, you and I would get along so well. I want to see this in action because there's nothing that makes me happier than watching Steam come out next ears. But I will say, to bring this back around to your question, I was like, whoa, what is it
'cause I did. I grew up on chess and I grew up on MTG. But I think for me, what drives my love of game design, and this is a big question, I guess, is that, and I talk about this quite a bit, Mike, you'll recognize this, the beautiful enmeshment between mechanics and thematics. Chess as an example, is an awesome example. And I hadn't actually ever thought about it until you asked me this question, what the blending of mechanics and thematics are.
And and I'll for anyone who doesn't understand what I'm saying, is like, there's this moment where when a piece or a piece of a game, I guess that's what the same thing when a piece is mechanics match, it's thematics. There is like a beautiful harmony, yes, makes sense and it feels good. For example, the night in chess, it's a horse for anyone who doesn't play and it's the only piece that can leap over other pieces and has this very
sporadic kind of movement style. It's not sporadic at all, but for the first time player they'll be like what? Right. But it's the only piece that can leap and it's it's great because it's a horse. Why wouldn't it be able to jump over things there are? Pawns and pawns can only move one, can only move one. Feels like the weakest type 1 so. Exactly. So the queen, did you know the queen? I think it was Queen Isabella. The queen is based off of Queen Isabella of Spain because she
was so powerful. Yeah. She had so much influence in Europe that they were like, this piece needs to be stronger. She only used to be able to move one at a time. And then Queen Isabella dominated the Europe and the Americas. Was she the, I believe Europe. And they were like, this piece is now stronger. We're gonna we're gonna make her superior. Yeah. And I just think that's one. That's a great little history fun thing. But two, That's another. Blending of yeah, of the of the mechanics.
And so anytime Mike and I are coming up with things and he comes up with a brilliant mechanic, I'm like, that's great. Who does that belong to in terms of like Whisker Wars, for example? Yes, which character does that go to? Because thematically that doesn't work or thematically that's perfect over here because OK, you're pulling from the graveyard. The Gekromancer is a necromancer type character. A pull from the graveyard mechanic fits beautifully with the Gekromancer because of that
harmony. And that's where I love to. That's like where I love to sit in terms of game design. That's like my favorite spy. So Mike is the game mechanics when you're working on a game and then you're the theme guy trying to match it if you can. Yeah. And it's not always in that order. Sometimes it sure, sometimes it ebbs and flows and but yeah, a lot of the time it'll be me being it'll be me being like, what about this? And Mike's like, no, that's
broken. If you were to boil down our game design process to the list forum, Sean texting the group chat with like, what if we had a game that was this set in this crazy world and all of them did this and we're like, great, 20% of that's awesome. Get rid of the 80% and let's work on that 20%. And then he's like, yeah, OK, fine. Yeah, but then every time you get rid of the 80%, that 80% just happens to include giant robots, and it makes me upset. Get. Get. The Max out of here he.
Always. He always axe the Max. What do you have against Max? What's? Yeah, what do you have against Max? Mike, I love Max, I love Max, but Whisker Wars just would not have been as good if there were Max in it. Maybe an expansion 18? So, so I only know what I've seen on your Instagram through all the reels, right and everything. And I want to talk about the art in a minute. Oh yeah. But why couldn't a cute, whimsical animal not operate a mech of some sort? That is a good point.
Right. I mean, I feel like that's a possibility. There's certainly if the way that we put it to a swage, A swage Sean's fears of not being able to play and have the cool things he wants in the future of his scores. We say if we get to a certain point, you can have whatever you want, but. You're making me out to be like the kid who wants candy. And they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get candy later, Yeah. You know the kid wants candy. Let's be honest. Candy.
So let's talk about. So in Whisker Wars, it's I forgot the name of the the the realm. What is? Supetra. Supetra. Yeah, but let's say if we took Supatra and put it in a historical context of Earth, what time period is it? Would you say it parallels I'm? Looking like because I have an answer. Well, answer for me. For me it is. Oh man, I'm gonna this is gonna show my total history nerd to me. It is after 1110. It's right after 1066. Battle of Hastings.
Battle of Hastings and the pushing of the the Norwegians out of England at the OK Battle of Stamford Bridge I believe. So, OK, so we're talking about the following 11th, 12th century. All right, so here we here's my follow up question to get back to next. Would it not then be possible, Michael? Would it not be possible? I don't know how this ended up being me putting you on the spot, but. I love it. Here's your future expansions,
right? You could then take your fictional realm forward in the future, right? As technology develops. So you could do gunpowder and then you could introduce that type of weaponry and then eventually air power, sea power, and then ultimately the kids going to get his candy and you can have a mech expansion, right? So, so cool. That's. 4 expansions right there that you could release in the future when your trade board might be over. Let's hope. I we can't wait for both of
those things. One, expand to the Hazmat X and two, for this trade war to be over because then all of us will be happy. Yes, Yeah. I am with you, PJ. That sounds like exactly the trajectory we should be on. And yeah, they always have to poke fun at my anytime I see a mech or something, it's just kind of a big Titanfall fan, like OG Titanfall and Titanfall 2 and then Armored Core and all that stuff. And so, yeah, that's a good point. They could have a mech. There should be mechs.
So my next question is for the both of you. So here's one where I'm actually, this is more of a formal question where I would expect both of you to answer. But I'm serious. What what games are you? What board games are you outside of Whisker wars, obviously, because you're probably are you enjoying playing right now, like what's on your table recently? Great. I'm not going to ask you what your what your favorite game. Pick one. Yeah. Yeah, but what are you enjoying right now?
What's inspiring you today? So I, what was it? Saxon plug? This past year picked up Kelp and I've been playing kelp a lot with my partner. I love that freaking game. It is such a unique blend of a couple different fun thematics in a way that at first I thought it would be more overwhelming, but after the first game you're like, Nah, I get it. I like this. I don't know what there has to be said that I only get to play the octopus, so my fiance only gets to play the shark, but I
love it and it's too much. It's a lot of fun just trying to skedaddle my way through different bushes away from her. So that is. And the thematic, it's, yeah, it's another game where it's like the like, to Sean's point earlier, where the thematic matches the mechanics of the game. Absolutely. Perfectly. Perfectly. Yeah, so welcome a quick. A quick shout out to Carl, the designer of the game who we had on here before we in fact launched on Kickstarter. We had him on because y'all are
new to the show. You have to go back to the audio only episodes. Yeah, right on. OK, which you can all find on YouTube, but but yeah, because we only started doing video with episode 100, which was October of last year. Oh, very calm. Right on. Yeah, but I know that Carl listens regularly, so he's going to enjoy the shout outs of Kelp. That's a good one. Awesome. That's really good and ties in with everything we've just talked about in terms of trying to marry theme and mechanics.
What about you, Sean? What are you? What are you enjoying right now? Another where beautiful marriage of human mechanics. We play this. We actually played it recently, Mike, he knows what I'm gonna say. And it's unmanaged by Restoration Games and Rob Dabio, right? Yeah, yeah, it's them in Restoration games. Unmatched is awesome. So Unmatched is great and my love of it comes from that Thematics, mechanics, synergy. So it's asymmetrical characters. Everyone gets their own short
deck. It's an arena battler, so someone who grew up like playing Halo 2 or Halo three in a small arena, a force to fight each other. And then the characters are awesome. So it's all like open IP. So it's like Red Riding Hood. This is my favorite matchup is Red Riding Hood versus Beowulf cuz it's Red Riding Hood versus the Wolf, but it's not the wolf, it's Beowulf. I think it's really cool. Wow. And then each each character has their own kind of like play style.
So the set that I have is the Shakespearean set. OK. So you have Shakespeare versus the three Fates versus Hamlet versus Titania. And for a great example is Hamlet. At the beginning of your turn, you can either to be or not to be. And if you to be, you draw extra cards. And if you're not to be, you deal extra damage. So it's like very simple mechanics like that that are perfect for the character. Yeah, we just played recently and I think Mike had a good
time. Right, Mike. .9% one I'm pretty sure as the three. The three are great, a lot of fun, love that game, love winning a game. Have I said that maybe? You have you have made that very. Clear, Very clear. Yeah, Yeah. What? Again, another question for the two of you. What games, if any? I'm sure they're a list inspired you in the development of Whisker Wars. Like, you played a game and you're like, Oh my God, yeah,
yeah. So we are definitely at least for a lot of like abilities and sort of there's a couple different games. The short list is like MTG, Magic the Gathering. We're all all three of us are Magic the gathering players. We love weekly semi weekly
commander. And we wanted the whole sort of intention of Whisker Wars was to create this sort of entry level, almost scaffolding like game that can take newer players to the genre and give them that sort of brain, scratch that itch for more of those complex battlers like MTG, Yu-gi-oh, Lucana, Pokémon. So there's definitely a lot of inspiration from MTG in that sense. And there's another simpler sense. There's also the inspiration from D&D, which is one of our
favorite games. Sean and I are in a campaign together. 2 campaigns together, hilariously. Three, dude, I run you through Lancer. Well, that's right, DNDDN. DD2 DND campaigns together where we took the Super easy to understand initiative system of just, you know, and we made that sort of the core loop of how the actual cards play and the timing of the cards themselves. So it's just super easy. Look for the highest number on the table, that card goes so on and so forth.
So we sort of took that idea from DND and then I think there's probably other inspirations too, but I think those are the two quick biggest ones that come to mind. Sean, is there anything you want to add to that in terms of, yeah, there was a. Game Well, one. Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you I'm just like my brain's reeling. Yeah, you mentioned D&D mic and I was like what? And I was like yeah, that is like we talk about this all the time that yeah.
And I love that idea of like the game engine, right. The core loop. This was something that I think JB Stegmire. Talked about. Probably. Yeah, the core loop of like, what's the core of your game? Why is it fun? Why do I want to keep playing? These are really important questions. And that being like a simple mechanic of like an engine that simply drives a game from whatever's next. And then the other thing has to go and it has to go and you have to continue playing the game.
So it's like it kind of cuts down on analysis paralysis and all these other things like drag games out. It's like the game is forcing you to play it at a certain speed, which I think is really. Fun. OK. The other game that I was gonna bring up was it was a game that I played a while ago, which we had some inspiration from it. They do a nice job with their health trackers and that we were like, this is great. This is a really, we can get into this later, too.
But it's a really great, from a manufacturing standpoint, a really smart way to do this. And it was a game called Battle Wizards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Battle Wizards, Yeah. And for all those who haven't played, it's a very adult game. Careful around kids, but just a fun anecdote. Fun anecdote with that. I played with a bunch of my first time I ever played. I played with a bunch of actors and they had they had they had the most rule where if you didn't cast your spell in your
wizard's voice, it didn't count. So you had all these like very passive actors, right, with doing hilarious voices and full bore casting spells at you across the table. It was it was very fun. But yeah. That's awesome. That's interesting. So what any recent challenges outside of things we've already talked about, talk about the challenges in the process that you had and how you overcame them well.
I think there are a lot of challenges that so to preface, Sean Logan and I, the Glass House team, we've been very fortunate to have made a lot of industry connections over the past two years, going to Packs Unplugged, talking to people at Kickstarter. We joined the Unpub tabletop mentorship program where we got put with who's essentially like our Big Brother now, Ross Thompson and he many of our friends and connections we made like to say friends cuz it
doesn't ever feel like a connection in this industry. It's just friends and peers, but all of these friends and peers have giving us really good advice at each sort of turning point in the sort of journey of this process. With all of that being said, there are so many challenges that come up that you can never even anticipate.
And they say that and they've been saying that's like, don't think just because you feel like you're done and you're ready that you're just going to coast through this. There's always going to be things that come up and I can't think of any specific challenges right now. I feel like every day there's challenges that we got it. You taught yourself 2D animation because we're like like we were
like like that. That was the example I was gonna bring up is like, we have found that we've had to learn. We've had to learn things very quickly because of one budget constraints and 2:00 because of timing constraints. So we're like, OK, we could even if we had the budget, we realize we need XYZ assets that are, for example, Blender or 2D animation for our video. And it's like straight up, we don't have the funds. We're a small company.
We spent most of our money on art and advertising and then we're like OK, we need some 2D animation. It might goes, yeah I guess I'll figure that out. And like 2 weeks later we had like a fully functioning like intro video. Very rudimentary, but very good. Yeah. It's Adobe has become very a very familiar friend of mine over the past year and change at this point, Adobe Anime, Adobe Indesign, Logan's Virtuoso at this point with the Photoshop and Blender.
So it's just a lot of different putting on new hats we never knew how to wear before. These are all to my point. These are all things that it wasn't like we came in like I know Blender and I know Indesign let's make a game. It was like what do we I have to learn that now, right? They, they, they have to learn that now. Tom's over there like I'm just gonna write stories.
So. Yeah, that was, to their credit, like putting on a hat that had maybe never been on before and like running with it. Right. This is like when people, we go to game conventions all the time and people are like, yeah, I'm a designer, like cool with who? And they go just me. And it blows my mind. It blows my mind. One person teams that are just like you must be a genius. Yeah, and the.
Hardest working person I know in order to do certain like because it doesn't even matter the weight of a game, just a publishing process. Period is an arduous long process. Our game is light, our game is pretty light and the the To Do List that we put together in the last two months before launch, I was stressed and I had the easiest part of the list. It's like 174 action items for like 2 calendar months just just to get before Kickstarter
launch. So any do I met my my hat is off to anybody that does this by themselves or we have 3 and. Still feels like a lot. Still feels like a lot. It is a lot. So the challenge is the obstacles are all of them. Yeah. And I think Mike said it, which is we just didn't know. We didn't know how much writing there'd be for, you know, this like the social media aspect alone is just like tripping days and days and days of launch materials.
The assets, like having to have visual assets to accompany text, those have to be built. The video has to be built. Outreach to media has to be done. Like the velocity at which you travel when you're launching a game is it's a lot for one person. It's a lot for three people. So have you found that that velocity because you've you're like a week, you're a week out. We could change. Guys, has the velocity, has the velocity going up or has there kind of been a lull?
It's going up, it's gone up. That's. Everyone kind of said it would too. Like as you get closer to launch, it's not going to get easier, it's only going to get busier. But we're also sort of hats off to all of the great people that have given us so much advice over the past couple of months is that we've been able to learn from these people months ago to have this stuff done ahead of time. So it's like we are crunching so hard to get all of these things
done a week and change out. We've been doing it for the past month, for like a week and change out from our Kickstart launch so that it's ready so that we're not everyday when we get home from our normal jobs and then come home and sit at our computers, we're doing hours of work to keep up with it every single day. So it's like we're taking as smart and efficient of an approach to it as possible, which cannot be said for everyone.
And some people just don't know how much it, you know, is involved in making a game or just launching periods. So I'm just very fortunate that we've had that in our corner. And to just make a last point here is like we also have A to our to our credit, we are not afraid of asking for help. And to their credit, we have an awesome network of people who have said like one of Mike and Logan's friends works their full
time job is BD 3D design. So they designed our blister tray something that like we. Would have never been able. To we'd have never been able to do that. And and we have one of Logan's friends is like big in graphic design. So she's helping us with our Kickstarter page. And this is all just people who are just like down to help us because we're coming to them open and honestly being like hell. We need a hand here. Yeah. And and that's coming from three, three of us.
So I can imagine how yeah, how doing it alone you need a lot of help are. All three of you in Brooklyn? No. So the. Two of us are and then Logan's based out of Austin. OK. That's got to be a little bit of a challenge too, right? It's yeah. Yeah, in a way I think the pros outweigh the cons on that one because then we get an even sort of wider net in terms of because like we love play to, I personally love play testing
events. I love like when we just get to get together with the community, host an event at a local game store or a cafe or something like that and then just bring other designers or just like friends, family together. So like we get to do that now out of two hubs, Boston and New York. So I love that. Yes, it does involve a four hour trip up to up to Boston after work, but you know, it's all in the love of the game. Right. Yeah, OK. And there's a chance that Logan even we're gonna.
Manifest that on this we're. Gonna go back to that. We're gonna. Yeah, we're gonna. He's gonna relocate to Brooklyn. It's potentially in the worst. We say that as he is currently on vacation. Right now we'll not see this. He will. He'll be like guys. So I want to talk about the art for a minute. I'm I'm trying to remember some of the descriptions. The keyword that I saw in your social media to describe the art for Whisker Wars was whimsy or whimsical. Here you hear that a lot, so I
don't know if you've noticed. So my question is 2 parts, right? One, it's specific about your game. And then a larger question. There has been a trend, there's so many games where the theme in the artwork is very could be defined as whimsical. We're seeing a whole lot of that. So my first question to you or the first part is, what do you think's going on? What do you think's motivating that? And then secondly, why did you choose a more whimsical art? Uvra, if you will, and Michael,
maybe he's ready. So. That's it. Yeah. That's your question. Great question. So I think we we knew specifically when we were going to market with Whisker words that we needed a digestible theme and we did not make a brand new unique theme. It is anthropomorphic warriors in the fantasy world. It's been done hundreds of times over. We have no problem with that, but we love it and people love it and it's just a great medium. It's digestible, It's cute.
And then it's not just cute. Sometimes it's, you know, super cool. Like we've made some really cool characters in there that are not cute and they're super. I can I curse on here. It's bad ASS. So guys better do it. Yeah, you're very welcome. The so I love the sort of duality of what we've created in the world of it being both super cool and cute.
But to answer your question, I think there is like generally across the industry making something look more digestible is makes it an easier to market product period.
Like if it just looks cuter and simpler then someone is more likely to purchase it without even knowing what the contents of the game are or the skill level or how long the play time is. If you have a, you know, super heavy box that's full with sci-fi themes and it's in space, you're seeing this massive board on it, people are going to be into that. I am into games like that.
Sean is into games like that. But your average everyday consumer might look at that and think, oh, that's too heavy. Oh, that's a little scary. That's a daunting theme. I'm going to pick up this thing that's got a cat in a catapult on the box and I'm like, cool, yeah. Yeah, That, I think is Mike, touches on a really important thing, which is like, if I'm looking for a new game, I would like to have a first impression of the game that matches the game after I've bought it. Sure.
I'm not going to new names, but there are games that that kind of trick you where it looks approachable in light and you open the game and it's an asymmetrical doom battler and you're like, what is I have to reread these directions tenfold. Like, so we wanted to make sure that like if we're, if our game is intending to bring in new players, then we want to make sure that art catches new players eyes and and tells them,
Hey, I'm accessible to you. I'm I'm a safe place for you new player to come in and play this game. So that was a lot of our motivating. But and then and then also like there's a history of like animal anthropomorphic stories, absolutely inaccessibility to kids. You talk about Zootopia, you go all the way back to Disney's Robin Hood. Like these are stories where anthropomorphic characters are intended for kids. So it already leans that way it.
Would be remiss of us not to mention Redwall, as well as a big thematic sort of inspiration for us as a game. We grew up with Red Wall, a lot of people grew up with Red Wall. We wanted to give that sort of Red Wall inspired battling sensation into a cute sort of little box. So that was sort of one of our many goals.
With Whisker worst, so that means that your target audience is Jack and Jill off the street and entering this community and this industry we. Yeah, there's like, so it's like, that's like a that's interesting because that's two, there's two sides to that coin. Our target it yes. The answer, short answer, yes. We want it to be available to to new players, players that aren't hardcore gamers, players that
that MTG is too much for them. It also is supposed to be a nice point for their friends to be like, hey, oh, maybe MTG is too complicated. Want to try this? And then you can drag people into the mire of games. Yeah. And and then all of a sudden they're like, oh, I understand these mechanics. What's that MTG about? Right. Draw your friends in. It's supposed to be accessible to new players and have enough depth and fun and mechanics to scratch the itch of veteran players.
I've heard some talk, both of you, both of you have mentioned a lot of a lot about kids, right? So is part of your target audience a family oriented and a children's accessible? I'm making this game that way. So I think we took a lot of effort in the creative process of the game to make it approachable to, I'm not gonna say all Angel agents, cuz I don't. Think a three or. 4 year old's gonna be able to pick up this game, right? But like 8 and up, 100%.
Like thematically wise, mechanics wise, we tried to keep it as simple and digestible as possible so that you can play with your family. I mean, let's all be real, we're all at conventions. We see 9 year olds whipping out their commander deck, an absolutely trucking 39 year old players at the game table. So that level of intellect is already skyrocketing in that younger generation, which is super scary and awesome and awesome at the same time.
But we wanted to make sure we created a game that was accessible to everyone. We didn't want it to feel like there was just a specific niche this was going towards. Don't get me wrong, we know our super fan for the most part. Like they talk a lot about a super fan when you're building a game for the first time. It's like if you were to choose one sort of pocket, one sort of slice of gamer that you would market this to, who would it be? So ours is typically the card
battler MTG sort of player. So that's our super fan. And if you play at MTG before and you pick up the scores, you're going to enjoy it because it's made by a bunch of MTG nerds that wanted a more digestible medium. To answer your question, yeah, why not? Why can't it be a family game? You know, we kept it light. We don't use things like attack. We don't use like, health or like life or like killing players in the game. Like, we use all digestible language.
Like morale, for instance, is our health. So we use it more from a standpoint of like, your warriors will only follow you if you have morale. Your morale hit zero, they all run away. So we tried to keep the thematics very, again, intertwined into the mechanics of the game, and I think we did a pretty good job with it. Yeah, we took, we did, we actually did intentionally do that because we there were. I love Vittoria. She's awesome. She's she's awesome. To our artist.
Yeah, our artist Vittoria, and she kept putting in like really gruesome stuff. And we're like, dude, please pull back on that. It's awesome. But like, we're also trying to not scare away. And, you know, maybe like, you know, you want like I, I, my mom doesn't play a lot of board games, like magic is way over her head. But like I could see a World War
like she would play this. So like it's all to say like it's supposed to bring people together and there are some themes that are too much for some people, so or too harsh or too one way or the other. But if you can find them, if you can find a common ground and you have a table to sit at together and it's it's it fulfills one of the pillars of glass house, which is make games that genuinely bring people together. Right, So right. I love that that.
Mission, I totally support what what was it like on a personal level that you've talked about? You got a lot of support from the designer community and everything, but what about what about like any emotional content, emotional obstacles you had to overcome either internally or maybe you've got some resistance from a few personalities? Because the thing that's interesting about this community is that we're not all the same, right, right.
You know, so there's some good personalities, there's some neutral, and then there's, you know. There's chaotic evil, yeah. Yeah. Anything, anything that stood out for you that that's that was a refining moment. And how did you get past it? Or something like that? Yeah, that's a good question. Great question. We like to say a lot like we've had a lot of feed, like great feedback and positive affirmations in our sort of journey. It has not all been positive. It is not all been great.
Be hunky Dory. There has been a handful handfuls of people. It hasn't been a large, you know, majority, but handfuls of people won't say names or anything that we've met with. And we've showcased the game too. And we play tested with a cross play testing event, play testing events, conventions, personal one on ones on lines, whatever. Some people do not like the game and right, some people are very vocal about it and that's fine.
Like I, I think ultimately we are trying to make a game that's approachable to all, but that is just unrealistic because of what you just said. Everyone is different, first and foremost, gamers are also very different amongst each other and their play styles and what they're looking for in a game or how they want to approach an objective of a game. And it's it's like that's the the beauty of games is that what there's a million and one games on the market for you to choose
from. This might not be yours and that's totally fine. But that definitely persevere like pushes us to make the game as better and great as possible. So we like to flip any challenge into a thing that we can use to motivate. Us yeah, I think that's a really good point, Mike. Like like that's the beauty of the industry is like even if you are one of the most competitive aggressive dudes on the table, there's still a game for you out
there. Like there's still a, there's still a table that playing your favorite game. There's a there's a mono blue commander deck waiting for you somewhere. Even if you're not my friend. Yeah, exactly. Jesus. So my boy was like, even if I'm not going to be your friend, you will find friends here because there'll be people that will want to play the games you want to play and play it your style.
Like everyone has a place. And that is what I think is the beauty of the industry is 1 everyone for the most part, like 99.9% of people have been open arms, welcoming. Yeah. And, and, and, and that goes across the board, whether it's who you are, where you're from, your orientation, whatever, how you like a dress, it doesn't matter. You have a community that welcomes you. You have space to play and a space to be who you are and space to be honest.
And I think it's an it's, it's refreshing. I think that was my emotional bit about it was like, wow, what a what an arena where you can find such a diverse crowd and they all want to be here. They all have. And they and like the like the conventions that I've been to, the judgement's been at an all time low across the board. People are usually very like, oh, everyone's here to play games. I would love to piggyback off
that for one last point on this. Yes, there's a lot of challenges and there have been times where people have not had the most nice things to say. I will say from an emotional standpoint though, as hoping to bring our first to market brand new indie publishing company kind words of affirmations really go a long way. Yeah, like there are some days where we are absolutely exhausted from just our regular day jobs, and we're cranking 2 to 4 hours of glass house work a
night every other night. And just one kind comment from someone. Yeah, just makes the whole week, the whole month worth it. And there's been a couple of those pockets where we can feel our emotional morale dipping a little bit just because of the process. And it's exhausting. It's a lot of work. And then one or two nice things will come through and we'll just
skyrocket up the next day. And again, thankfully, we have three of us. Whenever one of us is down, one of us is up. So it's a great sort of balancing to have a trio working together. But those kind words of affirmation, Yeah, be nice to gamers, is what I'm trying to say. Even if you don't, even if you don't like the game, yeah, there's something about it that's great, I'm sure. Yeah, you, you are definitely, you guys are definitely blessed
that there's three of you. Just just in the podcast world, the amount of work that goes on behind the scenes to create this product that you consume at no cost to you. There's a financial burden, There's a burden of time. There's so much work. Yeah, I feel you. I don't put in as quite as many hours, but it's moments of
intent. Dedicated time and emotion and I think the worst thing for me is just crickets, right I get no feedback and so I'm like well, I guess I'm yeah OK right so you know I get a little aggressive with. Tell me how you what do you think about the podcast? I feel that. So here's a question and I had this one to ask you. I was going to ask you this from the beginning. I always plan to ask this question. Lately, the concept of vulnerability has come up on the podcast.
So my question to you is, because I think about this a a lot for me, how did you prepare yourself or was it easy for you to be vulnerable and open to criticism, whether constructive or negative during play testing and the entire process of development? I would love to start. I keep feel like I keep taking these shots. Here, don't. You can do it, you know. Vulnerability. This is a great question and almost a great segue off of the last question.
Vulnerability is such a good and necessary portion to creation, period, regardless of what you're trying to create. We're trying to create a game, a story, whatever have you. Vulnerability is so important because there's so many different avenues I can take off this. One example is we have a friend of mine who's designing a game and he's been working on it for five years, and he's only showed his friends and his close family. And I'm like, dude, this game is great.
Get this game out there, go to a local game store, play with random people. People want to play these new games. And he's just too scared. And he just, he's not at that moment. Yeah, where he wants to do that. And that's hard. It's hard to take something you've worked on for years to bring to someone who you know nothing about and then have them potentially tear your game to shreds.
Not everyone has that etiquette, that play testing etiquette that we've grown to learn over the past two years of like how you really approach unpub play testing and how do you sort of give critique back that doesn't feel overwhelmingly negative. So there's that's one avenue of that vulnerability.
The most important thing that I think for me when I joined, and I'll say when I joined the community as an entrepreneur trying to make a game for the first time two years ago, that first hacks unplug we went to is I think it was 2023 as a trio was so like eye opening to how open the community is. Like we I come from film and TV. I've been working on my career as film and TV for the past seven years. Not everyone's super nice in this industry.
It's a very cut throat industry. Everyone's trying to get a leg up on each other, so there's a lot of metaphorical buses coming around every single corner. Yeah. In tabletop everyone is so nice and so open.
You can ask anyone a question and assuming they have the time and they have a moment and they're not super busy cuz everyone's very busy at conventions, they will tell you, they will hand you the keys to success and they will not, they will not withhold any sort of key sort of information or anything like that. They will just give you everything that they've learned over their experience and as much of a medium that you can consume.
And I've never worked in an industry where people are that open about how to succeed. And we actively strive all of the time to put that same energy back out into the community. We, we actively like tell anyone you have any questions, you want to spit ball an idea and like get some ideas. We're brand new, but like we'd be happy to have an e-mail conversation or a phone call or anything with you guys.
Like anything we can do to give back, for those that gave to us, to get us to where we are now is so crucial to the industry. I think it's an industry to exactly Mike's point, that this is an industry that genuinely believes that a rising tide raises all ships. So like the more help you can put into the industry, that kind of goodwill is going to come right back around. And I believe that too. But it's. We all want to play games. Everyone wants to play games. We all want to play games.
I really like what you said, Mike, about vulnerability, cuz at the end of the day, if you're creating something, you are exposing yourself and you're taking a risk. And so I'm just really hard. I come from the, I'm a big screenwriter. I love writing movies and TV and stuff and it's one of my passions. And no, you haven't seen anything I wrote because we're not there yet, but maybe one day. My point is, is like, to use that as an example.
Like it's hard to show someone a script and say, hey, take a look at this as you're a lot of people will get like paralysis. And like, Mike made an example of it and be like, oh, I'm afraid of being judged. If I never complete something or if I never put it out there, I don't run the risk of being judged. And that's a very scary place is to be vulnerable. Yeah. I think it's that it's very important to know, to find out more about yourself by the way you open yourself to others in
the industry. And like you can never control someone else's reactions or actions. You can only ever control the way you receive them, the way you respond. So and that's a big life lesson that took me a lot of therapy to learn. But to bring it back into game design, we've, and this is also something I learned in screen writing, which is what is the note behind the note is the quote. So what's the note behind the note? So if someone comes to you and they go, this game sucked.
I didn't draw enough cards. I didn't have any options for us to learn to say, instead of going, this person hated our game. Like whatever, they can go kick rocks. It's more like, okay, wait, hold on, stop. How does every note, how can we use every note to make our game better? What did I hear? I heard a lot, but the big note was I didn't draw enough cards. Maybe we need to add more card draw. That's the note behind the note, which is frustrated. They were frustrated because
they didn't have enough options. So how do we bring this in? Like that's a good note. That's a great it was, yeah. Even if they're not articulating it kindly. Right. It's a big note, and for us, a lesson, a big lesson was very. Good. All right. Yes. I don't like the way they said it. Their note was really good. We need to fix some things. We. Give each other about 10 minutes of vent time where we vent out how we feel about something and
then we're like never again. And we let it go behind us, and we take the note behind the note, and then we continue on. Logan's great at that, at like calming move down being like, all right, got that out. What was the name? And I'm like, we need more clear drop. So yeah, but it is. It's scary to be vulnerable. Yeah, it's it's very scary. So, interestingly enough, I love how y'all y'all set this up for me.
So the the Roman orator and philosopher Seneca, he said that we are more often frightened than hurt, and we suffer more in imagination than in reality. What did TJ just say? What does that mean? It means that we imagine perceived hurt because of our fear, and then rather than in reality, you're not hurt at all, but you feel like you're hurt. I suffer from this constantly, right?
So do. I, I mean, and what's interesting is this also ties into some of the motivation behind FDR when he was inaugurated in 1933 as U.S. President. He's like, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Nameless, unreasoning that paralyzes efforts to take advance from in to retreat. And it's like I butchered the end of that quote because I'm always excited. I like. That one, I'm locked in. I liked it, yeah. So Sean, you're talking to a guy with a masters in history, so
you can nerd out all day. You're great. This is good. But I'm just thinking about that because that is the problem, right? Everything begins. You've heard me say it. It begins with me and then us, and then the bigger community. And the first thing is you got to be willing to be vulnerable. And I don't know about the two of you. I'm not always willing. I sometimes fail in being vulnerable. I get I get scared sometimes too. You know when you put yourself
out there with. You especially, like, especially to strangers. Like, it's easier to, yeah, it's hard to be vulnerable to your friends. It's hard to be vulnerable to your family. Some people find it easier to be vulnerable to strangers because what are the stakes, right? Some actors are like, oh, it's just an audience of nobodies, so I can be as vulnerable as I want. But then like, that goes both ways. It's like, I also don't know you. So there's a lot there.
Yeah, definitely. I think we're we're very lucky. Again, we kind of harp on this a lot where it's like we're a trio. So our first step is being vulnerable with the like the other two. And it's always welcome in open arms, even if it's another game that has a mech in it. And then it's like we will always just receive an idea, open hopefully, and strive to then just work on that idea and mold it into something all this can then work on. Well, Mike, you did.
I want to bring something else. Something else up about this that is less so about game design, more about us where it's like, we've also become really, really good friends through this process. Sure, we were pretty good friends. Mike and I were pretty good friends. Mike introduced me to Logan, and we've all become. My point is this, the ability to be vulnerable with each other has started to morph into other places where the example I like and might not even remember
this. I was kind of panicking about a promise I had made to my family and a promise I had made to Glass House to be in two places at once. And I messed up and I was stressed and I was like, I felt really horrible about having to call Mike and be like, hey, man, I can't go to this thing that we said we'd go to. And he goes, Mike, you said to me, you said, dude, I love glass house and I love you guys. But family will always come
first. And it is those relationships that like are the most important to us. And it's those relationships that like make us good human beings that we can come into this world and then like sit across the table from a stranger and treat them like family, right? So I was like, huh, So I've learned a lot from working with these guys. Just about one about business sense and two about games and three about but about being like games.
What I didn't expect to learn is like how to be a better person. Yeah, through this process, which is really, really eye opening and leaning into a little bit more, like you said, vulnerability. So. I think that's the, I think that gets lost sometimes, right? Like being a good gamer can help you to be a good person and then that helps you in dealing with other gamers in the community, community and nurturing the concept of community also, especially right now. We need that, right?
We need good gamers. We need good people. People. Right. Yeah, to walk out in the world and and deal with all that. Speaking of the elephant in the room, what has it been like since the announcement of tariffs, the trade wars? So, and there's really two components to this. One is the uncertainty of what's it going to be like a week from now when you launch, a year from now when you're ready to ship, right? What is that going to look like?
And then there's the 145% tariff on China and China's so pivotal to this industry. What has that? What is it like entering this industry as game designers in this trade war? What does that been like and how are you navigating well? Yeah, it's it's nerve wracking, obviously, just the complete unknown of it all is is horrifying as a gamer and not a business person, not a company, as a gamer, I'm angry, I'm upset.
It's an easy emotion to sort of have in this time because it's like what an industry to get hit so hard. Like it's not like tabletop. Like, yes, there are some big name companies in the tabletop sphere, but tabletop is mostly comprised of smaller companies that bring out these awesome games and hit it off with their first product. So it's like what an industry to absolutely like almost capsize
in a way. And we're all seeing it with the articles we've been reading, the layoffs, the companies that are going under, the companies that are on indefinite holds for their next announced project. It's horrifying. Like how do? And then like, you know, we get, like I said before, we have a lot of, you know, mentors and friends we've made in this industry over the past couple of years who also, you know, air their own caution to us.
Or it's like, Are you sure that you want to move forward? Which is a totally valid thing to ask us. And we would be more upset if people weren't asking us that as we got closer. So that shows that people actually care. And we, you know, there was a moment where we weren't sure and we really had to talk it out. And it was a long call one night and we really talked it out.
We looked at all the numbers, Logan, our big logistics brain, whipped up a spreadsheet with how this was going to affect us and our manufacturing costs and how we were going to sort of proceed. And we decided with all that being said, the momentum we have right now going into launch is too great. And frankly we are just running out of a budget for, for AD spend.
So it's like if we it's risking the loss of that momentum and going sort of dark and then launching later versus just launching and crossing all fingers and toes over the next, you know, six months or so that those sort of tariffs change and or at least stay where they are. So we can at least adjust and account for it accordingly. Obviously, hopefully go away completely or just lower, but you never know. A tweet at 2:00 AM can change everything.
But it's, it's been scary. Is, is the obvious answer. Nerve wracking, frightening. But we are persevering. We are all supporting each other. We're getting calm, you know, positive affirmation from those around us and we just can't. It's almost a part of my brain too. It's like I feel like I can't wait anymore. It's like I don't, it's almost as if we're being punished by something so utterly out of our control for something we've worked so hard for.
And it's like, I can't possibly think about waiting indefinitely from this thing we've worked for so hard. That is, that is the sad truth of it is that it's people, we'll call them at home, companies at home that are suffering and the players that would be suffering. So my you're talking like the basis of your question was how does it felt to be in this arena right now? And yeah, there's been, it's, it's kicked off with like a huge amount of fear.
Like it has suddenly inundated the industry. It seemed it in uncertainty and fear. Something though, that has been a big beacon for us has been we don't know. We don't know. And that can be scary to a lot of people. It can also, it is the foundation of hope. And like you're religious, you might call it faith. I'm not, but I still like the word faith. Like I have faith in that this community supports each other. And then this industry won't be defined by 4 bumpy years or
hopefully, hopefully way less. Right. Like, and I don't mean that in any kind of little, just mean like, like hopefully these tariffs go away, right? Because they're good. They could. But we could get to, we could get to launch, we could get to manufacturing time and cooler heads could prevail. Absolutely. And, and then all of a sudden it's we're, we're, we're OK. You know what I mean?
It's not to say that we're not OK, but I think our approach is faith in that if things could be OK, but also more practical faith. And if we are transparent and honest about our process, people will show up. So if we say, hey, this is exactly how it will affect you. Here's the tipping, here's the tariff. We're gonna tell you straight up, right? This is what this it's costing right now. And if it goes down, then we will make sure that it goes
down. We're not gonna, we're never gonna pull you pull over your eyes. Yeah, this. Extra cost only exists because of the 1:45 we're seeing and it's like and ideally in a perfect world it goes back to utterly normal. Like it's been 4 years and that just goes away and never existed. Yeah, I think there's been a lot of like, do we do this? Do we wrap it in? Do we, How do we, how do? And it's like, you know what? I don't want to. I'm never gonna want to trick
anybody. I want to come to you like another human and being like, this is our product. This is what the times are like. Please support us and we will show you exactly where your money is going. And, and hopefully just by that relationship, you know, and if not like, and if not like, if you're like, you know what? I, I hate the way of the world right now. I don't want to spend money on this. I'm not gonna put any more money towards there. Like we, yeah, we get it. Yeah, Yeah, we get it.
But it's not transparency and that honesty that like, we would rather do that. I'd rather be here. I'll put it this way. I'd rather be honest and fail, which I don't think we will. But I'd rather be honest and fail than succeed by manipulating people. Sure, absolutely. And I asked the question not to be a downer. I asked because this, this was something I thought about a lot before the two of you came on.
I y'all, y'all have such a unique perspective and an interesting story to tell and it's worthy of being told coming in as a new game designer at this time, right? Because there are so many game designers who have mentored you and helped you and everything like that that you were describing in the last hour that they have been in it for a while. So they've got some strategies and some resources that they can lean on to see them through the next six months, nine months, a year.
What I don't know what their plans are, but to be coming at it, you know, rather than asking you, why are you releasing your game right now like you're being asked all the time. I'm I think you bring this unique perspective because you're doing it despite the tariffs. I feel like you were the perfect example of what I'm trying to tell people about. Stop being afraid and angry. I mean, you could be afraid and angry, but channel this in a
positive way. You guys are saying no, despite all this, we're going going forward because we got a product. I love that. Whether this game is for you or not, how can no one, anyone not applaud you for excuse me for going forward in such a tumultuous time? And I applaud both of you. And I thank you both for coming on and and sharing that with us. I love you. Yeah, really.
Appreciate you saying that. Yeah, that's yeah, that means a lot to us because it is nerve wracking and maybe it's it could just be a practical lesson to be like, OK, why is it? Why do we we believe this? It's because we have a couple of practical things in line for us. Our game is relatively light and we're crowdfunding. We don't crowdfunding, you know. A warehouse filled with product that's already been made that
needs to get shipped over here. It's we have a little bit of a timeline where we are as a small indie publishing company versus Hasbro or any of these massive companies. I mean, like, I know Stonemeyer games like put out an article or a release statement a little while ago where they're like, we're gonna cover the cost of the tariff for the games that have been ordered from our last sort of run to come out to the States. But they can afford that. They're still minor games, right?
And it's probably still taking a massive hit on them. Absolutely. Who knows what the actual numbers are on the back end, but we can't play that realistically. I guess it's like the big less The big take away is the storm is not the end. It is there's a path. There's always a path through any storm. So like even if you have to adjust the way you approach games for a little bit, a game design for a little bit and games manufacturing for a little
bit like it's not the end. It's it's an uncomfortable adjustment that is temporary. Yes, and I'm not gonna, I would like, I'm not gonna speak for the other guys at Glass House, but I believe we, well, we aren't. We're launching. Oh, it's like it's too late. We're doing this. So we're not going to, you know, an uncomfortable situation deter us from doing something that we genuinely love. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for saying that, PJ. Yeah.
I think my last sort of note on that is that we saw what's going on in our industry right now to sort of take it and channel it into a more positive reinforcement of everything going on. We know that sort of, I mean, crowdfunding is in the name, but we know that the crowd, the community is such a like it's, dare I say, the most important aspect of our industry. So we know when we see all these other projects that are lined up for this year, other kickstarters are things coming out.
We're going to help. Oh, it's going to cost me an extra 10 dollars, $15.00 to like support another small company that'll be there for us. And like we'll be for other small companies and we'll all be there for each other. I can't, I can't say that everyone can afford it, but like, I will choose to be as supportive as I can in this time to other people because I know that they need it just as much as we do, just as much as the next person.
And I'm not going to let you know the unfortunate reactions of certain people in our government going to stop me from that sort of feeling of community with the rest of my peers. Right, absolutely. So once again, I want to thank you both for being on the game is Whisker Wars. It's coming to Kickstarter on May 13th, which is when you're listening to this episode because very cool. It's almost as if we planned it
that way. So for anyone who has not heard about your game or Glass house, tell the listeners, viewers where they can find you on socials, websites, all the fun stuff. Yeah, so you can. Well, we are live on Kickstarter right now. So if you you know Google Kickstarter Whisker Wars, you'll will be the one that pops up for socials. We have an awesome Discord channel going.
You'll be able to find a link to that through our like through a lot of places through our website, which is Glass House Games Co. We could not afford the so just so through that, you can find our link to the discord, Instagram. We have a lot of fun stuff on there. The point is, I think Discord is where it's at really, really awesome, helpful, excited community that it's like a lot of like lore chats are going on
and putting lore in there. People are talking about fun punting animal names, how we run online play tests. So if you want to check the game out ahead of time, we run them through Tabletop Simulator is the big one that's been. Later in the moment, top dot GTA. Yeah, those are two online mediums right now, so. If you're on the fence, there are options to check out the game ahead of time, see if you even like it.
So and if you don't know hard feelings, but that's where you can find us. And then like if you want to reach out to us directly, we will answer your emails. Our e-mail is hello@glasshousegames.co. So if you want to reach out to us directly and have anything to say, please reach out. We're we're our open door policy. Yeah, that's us. Well. Again, guys, thank you, Michael, Sean, and please extend my gratitude to Logan as well as
well. Whisker Wars. Please guys, remember to like and subscribe to the YouTube channel. The goal right now, in October of this year, we will be on YouTube for one year. We would love to have 100 followers subscribers. We could get more. That would be great. Come on, you could find us on Spotify and all other streaming services. Make sure you like. Please leave comments either for myself or for Sean and Mike
about the game. They'll be able to see that on YouTube. And thanks again for watching. Super. Thank you.