Hey guys, and welcome to episode 109. That's right, we are. We are just pushing along almost to 110 and I'm really excited. As always, I remain PJ and in this episode 6 titles, two brothers, one night, it's last night games and with me is Nathan Jenny. Nathan, how are you? Thanks. Yeah. No thank. Thanks for coming on. And I know you're in a comments room at the office, so, you know, but we'll, we'll try to be mindful of the time. So I was doing a little research. I'd reached out.
Well, I guess I should say first I reached out to you and your brother Jake at, I think it was Gen. Con a year year ago. And then again, I think I saw you at Origins or maybe I saw you at Gen. Con. All the conventions blur together, I feel like, right. It's just like, I want to, I want to work with you guys. So you sent me a few games and we just, we really, we love your products. We love your, we love your concept. You've got this amazing story that I want to dive into as
well. But I was, I was. So why don't you tell us a little bit about you personally, How did you get into the hobby? Like what was the first modern board game for you? And a little bit like that like. I don't know. We've been asked that question before and tried to think like what, what was the first game? So my Jake and I, we grew up in a family. Our family was kind of always had board games and we had, you
know, a bunch of the old ones. You know, we had Scrabble and Monopoly and then we had, I don't know, I think my parents must have been into it a little bit because we, our collection kind of grew over time and you know, we'd get like new things like skip over phase 10 and stuff. And we had some old interesting ones. I don't know if you ever remember there's an old dungeon game where you had little purple mini figs you'd move around the dungeon. That kind of sounds familiar.
Yeah, it was, it was an old one. That one was like kind of like tickling something I think in both of our minds. And then we had this fun game called Careers, which was a little more like a marriage trash, but maybe with a little bit more choice in some of the games. Anyway, we just kept growing and, and, you know, we went to college and people had introduced us to even new games
like Dominion and such. And then, yeah, I think, you know, I think actually Carcassonne was one of the, I mean, if we're going to talk about what people classically call their interests, I think I, my wife and I bought Carcassonne and started playing and enjoyed it a lot. That's cool. So and I think so. I think that's the cool thing. I don't know that everyone knows this about. It's a you and your brother. You see, you grew up in the hobby.
I think you decided to go into business together and open up a publishing house and you're publishing games like. So I I wanna, I really want to dive into that because I'm interested in what it's like to work with your brother. So, like, I work with my wife, Right? Yeah. OK. So in my job, of course, she's my boss. You guys are probably partners equals.
Oh, Jake's the boss. OK, so So what is that like, how do you how do you manage, you know, when disagreements and leave things at home, you know, not bringing them to work? Like how does how does that dynamic play out in day-to-day? Yeah, no, that's a, that's a great question. So we had like 20 years of practice arguing and fighting. So and then and then once we became adults, we, we put that behind us. No. So yeah, I, I think so. I'm actually the older brother.
I'm three years older than Jake. He's the so you know, obviously he's the smarter one. I'm the better looking one. The truth comes out. So, yeah, you know, we, we, we got along, I think fairly well, although I'm not sure he would say that growing up. And yeah, interestingly enough, through a bunch of interesting events, we ended up starting college the same year and we decided we'd be dorm roommates
for that first year. And I think my parents were worried that we're going to kill each other. Sure. But I think I don't know, I guess both of us just kind of grew up at that moment and we just kind of saw each other peers and equals. And since then, I think, you know, most that civil sibling
rivalry has has died, right? But and we were always making up games, you know, growing up and stuff, you know, nothing complex or crazy, but you know, we had invent little games, you know, because we were bored and we grew up before most electronics and things. So we had like indoor baseball where we would like roll up socks and roll up towels and smash them across our room and dive onto the bed and, you know, we'd do some outdoor games and stuff.
So we had always been like kind of creative and we had the games. I'm growing up and, you know, I guess it's been close to 10 years ago. I guess Jake was just like, we should make a game. Like let's make a real like a real board game. We love board games. There's cool board games out there. We should make a game. I think that's when we got more serious about it and we sat down and actually started like thinking what it would be like and, and, you know, where it would go.
And I don't know, it took us probably six or seven years of just, you know, messing things up and scrapping ideas and throwing things away before we really kind of got it enough together that we could start publishing, right? And your first title was Life of a Chameleon, right? Is that right? That is so. How many, how many? So, OK, so there's I have so many questions. OK, so how many drafts or iterations of that game before you came up with the final
product? I don't know we I was I was reading A blog by another designer a while ago and this I forget his name, sorry I can't credit. No, it's OK credit. This person, but they were talking about, you know, once they hit like 280 or something revisions, then they were like getting confident that it was a good game, right? That person must do a really good job of tracking what they're doing. I don't think we track necessarily or, or, or maybe formally recognize what revision.
And you know, going back to your earlier question about how we make board games, honestly, I think the fact that we're brothers and that we've known each other for so long, we can be super honest and open about what's a good idea and what's a bad idea. And I think, I think we're constantly telling each other like, no, no, no, that doesn't
work because of this. And instead of being like ego hits, I think it's a little more like, Oh, no, we're that's you're right, Like there's something wrong here and we need to work on it. So a lot, a lot of iterations to answer the question. And I can't imagine at this point designing games without Jake. I think that pushback, right? He gives me helps us iterate a little faster than maybe I would ever be able to do by my own.
Like I would just be spiraling off and like, you know, La La Land and he's like, no, this is a dumb idea. And then, you know, we'll start working on something. And no, that's not working. And, and honestly, it's, it's hard to, I think for me to attribute credit back and forth like. Oh, sure.
Who who did what I I will say Jake came up with the initial idea for life of one of the thoughts he had had initially is like, you know, and especially those like older American games where you you'd pick your color and then March on the board. He was interested in that concept of of your character, your pond having a color. And he's like, well, it'd be fun if that changed colors throughout the game.
Yeah. And that that's what got us going on like, oh, well, we started thinking about like, well, why would you change color? What's the theme? Nice. Yeah, we came, came to Chameleons. Cool. So so you Jake's got this idea of let's it would be cool to change color. You you go through the process. So now you're you're ready. You were ready to go. And this might be a witch came first the chicken or the egg question. I don't know. Your answer will reveal whether
that is or not. So you're ready to go and you decide. Now you've got a question. Do you open your own publishing house and publish it yourself? Or do you go with a traditional publisher and you went with the former? Or or did you decide we're going to create Last Night games and then publish? Or how did that evolve? Let you know on the secret.
We had a failed Kickstarter like a long time ago in like 16 or something with, with even an earlier title than the one that we haven't, yeah, actually published. We, we had known, I don't know, we'd gone down that route and run into to failure like like so many people do. And we, my brother actually has from his job, a lot of experience with like manufacturing and sourcing and such. And we just were so new to like
the industry. I mean, we'd played games for a long time, but we hadn't been around the industry. We didn't know about like all the great resources, unpubs and designer groups and different things. And we didn't know how to, how to do anything. And I think, I think it was Jake. He was just like, look, I know how to do this. Like we, we can do this. I've got experience in it. And I'm like, oh, well, I don't know. And you know, and then it was just like, can we afford to do
it? And like, I don't know. And so I, I'm, I'm the Super conservative 1 and I, I'm just dragging my feet and I don't know. And, you know, mulling it over. And then I remember it was like 2021, like shortly before I think Thanksgiving. Jake's like, he's like, I did it. I'm like, did it. You did what? He's like, send our game to print. Wow. So that's, that's he, he pushed us, push us for it. And I'm so thankful for it because right, I'd still be dragging my feet, like, at least
years later. And that that's kind of the model like I was so I was looking in through your website in preparation for this episode and every game that you the two of you designed them all so so. Far. Yeah. So is that is it because there's nothing that's coming? Because I'm I'm guessing as a publisher, designers are just constantly pitching you with games. Has nothing hit come across your desk that's been like, yes, we need to publish this.
Or is it a design choice that it's just the two of you or like what's what's the Yeah. I think that's the first time I've been asked that question. That's that's a really interesting question. I think in some ways we're just not at a level where we're confident that we would serve the designer as well as we should, if that makes sense. You know, we're still just a few years into it and they're still growing. We're still learning and making mistakes. There's some really great
designers out there. And we do get a lot of people reaching out to us for pitches and stuff. And I feel really bad saying like, no, I mean, we, we really haven't even just entertained the idea at all yet. And I think it's, it's something we've talked about on occasion. We, we also, I don't know, fortunately or unfortunately for us, have like a ton of ideas that we're still also working on
ourselves. I mean, there's a little bit of selfish aspect I think in it. We, we have, yeah, we have several more games that we've started working on and some that are coming down the pipeline and, and are doing, I'm not going to say that we're not ever going to do that. But it's it's, I think it's a it's a responsibility, right? Like when you take on someone, you want to give them, like you want to give them the best showing that you can.
And right, I think we're still like growing and maybe not putting putting our image out there. I mean, we'll have people come up to us at conventions and be like, I've never heard of you guys, like why you've got all these games, like what right, what's going on? And I'm like, I think that's like indicate indicating to me that maybe that we're, we're not, we're missing a little on
the promotion side of things. And, and yeah, maybe, maybe we'll get there and, and we'll, we'll feel more confident and yeah. That's, that's really. So for me personally, that's interesting to hear because at least amongst the, the members of the hobby in the community that I spend most of my time with, I communicate with everyone's heard of you and yay Panda, Panda Royale, right.
That game just, well, it was wildfire and everyone was like, oh, are you gonna, you gonna have Nathan and Jake on? And I'm like, well, we're, we're trying to work something out. You know, people are really excited about that. And so, yeah, I guess I've got a surprise that people don't know you. Listen, if you're watching last night games, man, they've rocked. They've got some great titles and you got to check them out. Thank you. No, I think.
The games and not because you've sent me a game or two and I'm like, no, they were, they were genuinely incredible. You guys, every, every interaction I've had with you and your brother have always been delightful. So you're, you don't actually, it's not just that y'all put out good games. Y'all are good people. Right and just. So, yeah, so I'm really surprised to hear that because like, yeah, in my in my circle, people know who you. Are oh, thank you, thank you.
Yeah, it's we we've I think we've we're how do I say this? So I think we're kind of targeting a different level of the audience than a lot of companies are targeting. OK. I know a lot of designers really like to go heavy and deep and make make these really deep in wonderful games. We're kind of like, I don't know, like riding the line or straddling the fence.
Maybe we're we're trying to make these games that have enough strategy to keep hobby people entertained but be easy enough for like mainstream people to pick up and play. Sure, if that makes any sense. That makes a lot of sense. I hear that a lot. And so I, I think when we're at shows and conventions which are dominated by deep hobbyists, I, I think we get a lot of passbys because you know, they're looking for like worm span or something, you know, a lot bigger, a lot deeper and heavier.
We get, we get mistaken for kids games a lot like, Oh, you make kids games. And you know, I'll admit, some of our art looks just really fun and young, but it's, it's, it's, it's an interesting space, I think. And we've, I don't know, we've, we've been navigating as best we can, right? Like, you know, we, we aren't, we aren't the kids games, but and sometimes people equate family games with kids games. Oh, sure.
And so like I, I don't know, I, we've, we've had a lot of discussion, like, you know, how do we, how do we state that we're like, we have some strategy. It's not the deepest strategy you'll ever play, but it's not for kids. It'll keep you entertained, but your friends can learn it, right. So we, we have a lot of like heavier gamers taking our games to their friends that, that don't play games.
And yeah, we've had a lot of friends like just I get pictures of like family gatherings with them all around the table playing Panda Royale or all around the table playing horticulture. You know, just, they were able to teach everybody the game because it was, it was easy. It was a fast play, but there's enough, enough strategy that it's not just boring, right? It's not right. Move. Move to the Blue Square.
Move to the square. That is definitely the conversation I think we hear the most in our in the gaming community is how do we get our family who aren't hobbyists into the hobby, or how do I connect with my grandfather or how do I connect with my neighbors or people who aren't gamers. And I think one of the things that struck me for a moment, if we can talk about finest fish. So my wife saw it and was like,
we need a copy, right? And and so we we got a copy and you sent it to us. And that game is incredibly like crunchy, right? Like the hobbyists like to say, right, It's very crunchy. The, the, the strategy is incredibly deep. We had a, we did an episode with Nick Bentley from Underdog Games where we talked about emergent qualities in games where if you play a game more and more, more strategies become evident and there's not just one way to victory. And then, oh, you're done.
You shelf the game. I thought in my experience with Finest Fish, there's, I definitely see those emerging qualities playing at two players all the way up to four. It's like there's a lot of different, you know, ways of manipulating. There's different strategies for that. Tell us a little bit about the development of Finest Fish. Oh yeah, so I think I've said this before on the interview, but we had originally started
with an idea. And again, Jake, Jake always seems to come up with the really good ideas. OK, came up with this idea because like it'd be fun to like build the feathers on to a Peacock and make really fancy Peacock. And OK, and we had actually, we started it that way. So I am bet I, I'm very fortunate. I have an industrial laser. Cutter, by the way, OK. So it's, it's a, it's a Laguna Tools 100 Watt CO2 laser, which cuts wood beautifully, makes
beautiful little bits. So Jake's like, I need you to cut some pieces. And so I started cutting out like these feather shapes and, you know, we paint them. And then we start like playing around with him. He's like, this would be cool. And and like you were saying earlier, like we like to have kind of, we always like to incorporate like multiple past victory, at least multiple ways
to score points. And so right, right out of the gate, we were like, OK, you know, like obviously groups of the same color style are going to, you know, work together and then. You know, we could have like objectives that you're trying to accomplish throughout that. And so we started playing with it. And so you're familiar with the finest fish.
The black scales are those the special scales, They don't show up in the patterns, but they give you a bonus point no matter where you're at. You can also double dip and squirming groups if you get a big group of them. And so those were originally these like red feathers and, you know, we, we dropped that and they're like, OK, these red ones can be this bonus point. And, and we had these like funny
looking little Peacock heads. And then we were building the feathers onto it and it, we, yeah, we, we were getting into it. We'd figured out like the grouping and we're like, yeah, these patterns, you know, and we're trying to figure out the patterns and stuff. But like, we could tell something was there and we were, we kept working on it and developing it forward.
And we, we, we figured out the patterns were like, OK, the patterns, we want them, you know, not to be necessarily easy to make patterns and groups of the same color at the same time. Like we want them semi like a little bit orthogonal, right, But not impossible if you're, if you're paying attention what you're doing. And so like it was all like working really well, but we had a hard time like like where did we end this? Like they didn't feel like there's any like natural end to it.
Also, we were starting to consider like manufacturing bits and things and like the, the, the bits like that we had had originally were like the scales were like, or the scales there they were feathers, but they were like, they were like this big, right? That's huge. And we were like, how many are we going to need? Sure. Honestly, honestly, the the price was the biggest barrier in this game by a long shot. People, people look at it and they're like, oh, it's a simple
game. But what you don't realize is there's 180 scales, yes, and, and half of them are painted on both sides. So I mean, it's, it's an incredible anyway, so we were going and Jake also had this like competing idea. He's like, oh, you know, we did chameleon. Those are like the, the traditional like rainbow colors and stuff. I want something in like a nicer palette and stuff.
And so that's when we knew we'd have to like paint on them to make sure that everyone could distinguish each color from the other color. And so we were just kind of plagued by like, how do we end this game? And what's the manufacturing cost of this game? And I'm going to take credit for this idea. I was like. Oh, OK. Because I was, I was, I was doing the, you know, the cut files for the laser and stuff. And sure.
What if, what if I just make these circles because they were a little bit elongated before, like more like a feather. And I was like, what if I just make them circles? And then I was like, wait, these, these look like scales, like fish scales. And so at that moment, like I took it to Jake. I'm like, Jake, what about if we go, what if we do fish? He's like, it's like, I think that's a good idea. I'm like, and look, we can like, we can go out like this. And then we close it off.
And then when someone fills in the whole fish, the game's over. And yeah. And so we're like, we quick pivoted. I cut out these new fish boards originally so that the, the Peacocks were not a double layer board. They were just a single layer and you're just building out on the table, right. And so here we're like, OK, what can we do?
A two layer board? And, and so we did these two layer fish and then we're stacking the scales on and we're like, it feels great, you know, and like the component size came down. It looked like it was easier to fit in the box and you know, working with our factory, the pricing was looking like is coming down. Everyone we were play testing it with was like, oh, this is
great. I used to have and everyone wants to come up and tell us I used to have a goldfish when I was, you know, and so I felt like it was a win all around. It's like, right. It was like people were like super relating to it. They had natural closure. We did a little research into like fish keeping and different things like that and we found that, you know, there is goldfish keeping out there. There's and I know we're not true to like reality, but like there's calico patterning on
fish that is that is valuable. And so we're like, oh, perfect, we'll make these black scales that match like this calico pattern. It's prized. You know, they'll be the bonus points. So it just, it just kind of yeah, went from there and it just like, yeah, picked up steam with with everyone we were taking it to. And we're like, yeah, this is going to be fun. Like let's do it.
And then, you know, at the end of the day, it still came in a bit of a heavy hitter on the price, which I don't know. We were just like, I don't know. I mean, we would have loved to make it a 5 or 6 player game. Yeah, but we're just like, you know, at the end of the day, they're like, yeah, factories, you know, it's like it's looking like a $50 price point. And we're like, oh, they're like high but. It was right. I don't know.
I think it was worth it. I think I don't know, a lot of people have enjoyed it so. Oh absolutely. I think the present company included it was. Great. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was. It was a fun development, but yeah, like that, that's the the whole story of it, I think. So it's 2021. Jake has sent sent Chameleon Life of Chameleon to print Last night games. Kind of. That's the birthright you're 6 titles in. Do you have a favorite amongst your titles?
I get, I get that. I get asked that a lot. And my my first response is they're all my children. Sure. The true, the true response is whatever we're working on right now is my favorite because I think, I think when we're like in the development, I think we both really enjoy the design part. But I know I do. And so when I'm designing and I'm in the middle of I'm just like, oh, oh, this is fun. I love this game and I love it so much.
Yeah, it's it's yeah. And then by the time it like hits the streets, you're like, I have played that game so many times, right? You're like, right, let's let's play some, let's play a new game. It's not that I don't enjoy my games. I do enjoy games for sure. Of course. But I also love like learning and playing new games. So, right, usually when given the choice, I'm like, let's play
this new game. So what was what was your first board game convention after establishing Last Night Games and when was that do you remember? So our very first convention was a local 1 called Salt Con. It's it's in Salt Lake City. And we, we were the saddest couple of guys. I think we had we had life of a chameleon. We were, you know, going to print with the finest fish. I don't even think we had a full
booth. I think we're at like a long table, you know, and we're like, hey, we're new guys and we have this game and, and it was, it was, it was kind of a crazy, crazy time and crazy thing, but we actually ran, I had cut out little like pins that people could put on their lanyards and, and they were chameleons. And we had bought a bunch of
those like paint markers. And we're like having people sit down at our table and paint little chameleons like, you know, because that's life of chameleon and right, you know, colour changing chameleons. And so people were making these like amazing pins. And I think in some respects people didn't even know that we had a game. They're like, oh, this is the fun pin booth. That happens to sell a board game.
It, you know, I mean, as much as I joke about it, I do think it it, it drew, it drew people over to the booth. And we ran that same painting thing again at Origins, again at packs, and people really enjoyed it. It was it was a lot of fun. I'd love to keep doing that. Paint your own pin. Yeah, we've just, with all the games we have, there's not enough space anymore. So you need a bigger booth. Now. We need to move on to the big, the big, big booths.
That's right. 60 by 60s. So have have either of you attended and if not have plans to attend UKGE in the future? Because I know if Gareth would hear, if Gareth were here, he would ask that question. I absolutely have a desire. I have a desire to go to all the places. Sure. I think they're also fun.
No, we haven't yet. So we're, we've been working with other partners and I don't think I can make any announcements yet, but we've got some partners working with us to internationalize some of our games. And I think think I don't, I don't even know what the time frame is. Hopefully maybe later this year we'll we'll start seeing some of our games and some of those conventions. We won't be running booths or
anything just yet. And I think that's just something we got to figure out, like with with the internationalization partners, it might make most sense that just they do it, which would be great. We could, I would love to just go as an attendees and sure. And then, you know, I mean, work in a booth is fun, but I go to so many shows where I just, you know, it's like Jake and I and, and sometimes our wives come and it's just like non-stop work in the booth and, and not, not many game plays.
Well, we, we have, we have quite the following in the UK yes, and there is a vibrant and rich and very close knit community of board game hobbyists in in the UK. So and I know UK G's the one they all go to. So guys, if you're watching y'all don't you go to y'all need to reach out and help Nathan and Jake come to England, spend a week in Birmingham and OK. Because as as we grow, we're definitely going to be be it more of these events in these
places, right? Right now we're, you know, a little of a hope focused close at home and right and. But what about your convention schedule for this year, 2025? I know it's still early, but yeah, everyone's thinking about, I mean, everyone's asking me, I get messages all the time. Are you going to be a Gen. cop? Yeah, I'll be there. Have y'all finalized your convention schedule yet? Yeah. I think for this year it's going to be pretty much the same as last year.
This one isn't so important to maybe all the listeners, but Jake will be at Gamma Expo in February and then I'll be at, well, I think then it overlaps a little bit with our local SALT Con. So we'll be at SALT Con for the last couple days of it. I think at very minimum I'll be at Origins and then we should both be at Gen. Con and then tax on plugged. Tax on plug, that's OK. Our schedule this year. We do so.
If your copies of games to play to wins and libraries as many as many shows as we can, we can find in that will get that will entertain us. So if you can't find us, you might be able to find library or or play. There you go, there you go. So guys, if you're attending any of these conventions, be on the lookout, so. Many good conventions. So many, right? Yeah, so many of them. I wish I could just go to all of
them. So what are some of what are some of the challenges that you see as a game designer? And this could be, this is kind of wide open in the, in the next, in this coming year, in the next 4 years as a designer. I mean, we've got, you know, there's, there's talks of trade wars and tariffs. And I know that's got everybody kind of that's a legitimate concern, shipping concerns, relationships, because we're, we're, we're a hobby that is almost exclusively made in China.
So that's a real concern whether any of that happens or not. But is there any like immediate or long term challenges you see coming to fruition in the future or? Yeah. So in, in terms of like publishers, yeah, the the tariffs and stuff are really concerning. So we, we have a, a great gamut organization and they, I know are partnered with some people and are going to bat with the with the powers that be to, to try to keep games as a tariff free import.
And I know they're working pretty hard on that. So I really congratulate and applaud them for for helping out the industry. Yeah, we, we definitely rely largely on China for the manufacturer of these games. We have been in talks with with manufacturers in other locations. And, you know, it's just a a matter of like, you know, what is their pricing like and what is there availability of like resources in this? You know, in China you can pretty much find everything.
Some of the other places like they won't do dice or any plastics. Some of the places won't like have troubles with paper and won't do, you know much with paper. So we've been looking around and, and keep your eyes open. But I do think that's going to be a concern for for all publishers as time goes on. But hopefully, hopefully board games that bring everybody happiness will will remain that tariff in free import for right for for the foreseeable future. So we we can hope on that, you
know, yeah. As far as like the the game designer side of things, yeah, I don't know. There's, there's a, you know, there's a lot of days where I don't feel like I'm a real game designer because I'm self-publishing games and I'm like, well, anybody can publish their own games. So I don't know how much of great advice I can put out there.
Yeah, just, you know, know your audience, know who's who, who you're targeting or you're playing for, you know, beware of publishers that they, they have their own costs and things publishers aren't, aren't mean, mean, angry people that you see him to be. I've met a lot of great people in the publishing industry and, you know, I know that their hearts go out to all the designers out there.
And there's so many designers and, you know, I think I think a lot of publishers would love to take in more games and more games and more games. But there there's, you know, realistic physical limits to, you know, a shippable printable product that they can't, can't do all the things. But yeah, I think if you have a good target for your audience, find the the publishers that align the best with the, the
target that you're going for. And, you know, don't, don't, don't get too downtrodden by like failed Kickstarters or rejected rejections from publishers. Like they don't hate you. They don't hate your game. And even if they do, there might be someone else out there that loves it. You know, that's awesome. I. Love that. That's great. So I'm a published author
myself. I've published a few books and my first book, when I submitted it for for publication, I got my first rejection letter from the publisher. I framed it and just hung it up on a wall like a badge of honor, right? That's the right attitude, I think, and. It motivated me. For a while. So yeah. So that that's that's really good advice. So what about we know there's a community of gamers. What about the community of publishers?
So and I have a reason for asking that question because I want to know about if there is if the community of publishers is close knit, as close knit as the gaming, the gamers community. And then if you have a designer, right, I put out a game and I come to you. If that community is close and my game's not the right fit for a last night games. But you, you're like, you need to think about John Doe at S&S publishing, right? Like so that's kind of where I'm really trying to get at.
But I am curious about the community of publishers as a whole. Yeah. Well, and again, I'm, I'm not saying like we're fully integrated. I'm not really necessarily integrated in that publishing community. But you know, from, from the part that we've been in that we've experienced, I think the publishing community is a really great community. And I think the people are pretty tight knit. You know, it's, it's an
interesting space. We aren't like publishers aren't making something that you can only buy one of or one of every 10 years. And so we're not like as competitive. I think in that sense is like most, you know, competitors would be in any given industry. I have from personal experience, from experience of designer friends and from designer publishers, absolutely publishers will be like, hey, this, this doesn't really work for us. Have you tried?
And they'll put you right to another publisher. And I don't think, I don't know. I don't see, like when someone comes out with a new game, it's like, oh, that's infringing. We have to compete against that. You know, it's just like, you know, we're just all making games. And there's like, it's a really, you know, the number of people that play games is a really big pie. And we're all just like trying to make fun games that those
people will enjoy. Yeah. So I've, I've sent people to other publishers for sure, like when, when they come to my booth at the convention and they're showing me their game, you know, take a look at it. And if I, if I have any inkling of like, oh, this publishers doing that kind of game or something, you know, I mean, there's certainly publishers that, you know, work more in
like apparatuses and things. You know, you've got like your Haba Amigo or Hasbro kind of space and or you've got like your heavier games, you know, and then there's, you know, point point people in that direction too. And you know, there's, I think I think everybody out there's really just, I mean, everyone I've met is pretty nice and pretty helpful and we'll try to point in the right direction if they possibly can. Cool. I did. I did hear recently from one of
our local convention supporters. There was a there was a person, I guess that they had dealt with that designed a game and and was of the opinion that and had had shopped it around to a lot of different publishers and it hadn't has not been accepted by any publisher. And in this particular designer, designer was of the opinion, well, all the publishers out there are stupid because this great, this game is amazing. And you know, I haven't, I didn't witness any of this first
hand, but just remember that. If you want the publishers to be nice people, also be a nice person yourself. And due respect if. People don't, don't, don't want your game. And you know, there's always opportunity to change it, advance it, and do take people's input. It's not to say take everyone's input, right, But consider the input that you're given and decide whether or not you should act on it. Yeah. Do you have a favorite game mechanic? I don't know, I think.
And then my brother would say that I really like the Roland rights, and so he'd probably tell everybody like Nate likes rolling rights. I know that's not strictly. Mechanic. Well, it kind of is. But yeah, I do enjoy rolling rights. I'm trying to think of, Yeah. I mean, I love like blueprints of King Ludwig. I love the next station games, all those. I love those. Yeah. And I love get on board. I have the the Paris sure one. Love it. Yeah. So, you know, we made
horticulture. I love horticulture. Is there a? Is there a mechanic that you really are look that you have not yet designed a game using this mechanic and you're looking forward to designing a game using said mechanic? I hope it didn't break you with that. Yeah, you're like. No, Jake and I have a running joke that we've always tried to make a card game and always ended up making something else. So maybe someday we'll make a card game. Galaxy Rush is a. Card game.
I mean, it is. It's played on cards. Yeah, it's played on cards. That that that was, yeah, that was another attempt to make a card game. It is a card game, but it does have extra bits. It's true. It's. True, I you. Know, I think I would like to to incorporate trick taking. Jake hates trick taking. OK, I'm gonna put that out there. OK. But I think I would like to try
to do that someday. And I know it's a, it feels like maybe it's an overdone space, but I don't know, maybe I'll just make something for for my own. Yeah, to say I've done it. That would be an interesting one to me. So. Separate from last night games more about you my my last question to you is what what are your top three favorite games
within your collection today? Not of all time like today cuz you know our favorites change yeah no it's like I'll be honest so today what are your top three favorite games that's out there right now in my. Collection. See, that's interesting. So I actually had watched one of your, well, watched a podcast. I watched your video a couple episodes ago where you'd mentioned Fromage. And this last weekend, my wife and I were able to go to this tiny little convention in Bryce, Utah.
And it was there and I played it and right, I didn't think I was going to like it. I know that's really judgmental. I was judging like, not that the arts bad. I just thought it was going to be heavier than I was ready for. OK, OK. And. I. Quite enjoyed that, but it's not my collection so that that doesn't count right now in my collection, I really like Tangram City. OK. Yeah. We played that one a little bit. That was a pretty new one.
That's a we have Rosenberg. I always see his name wrong. So Yep, sorry. Yep. That one's fun. The blueprints of Nat King Ludwig, that one, that one. We've, we've, we've got a lot of play and yeah, I think, I don't know, maybe it's just because I played them so much, but I really like the next Station Games we have Tokyo, London and Paris, and I think most recently I was playing Paris. Yeah, Paris is pretty. They're all good. They're unique in their own right. Yeah.
OK, there's no wrong answer. No, I just. I just. I'm so nervous saying that because I'm like, wait. Then I think of another game. I'm like, oh wait, So the reason why I like. Asking top three is I really. I don't enjoy when someone's like. So what's your favorite board game? Yeah. OK. Yeah. So what? What was it? 5000 titles came out in 2024 and just in 2024. You want me to pick one? Yeah, of all.
Time come. On, I mean, any listener of our show, they well viewers now they all know it's obsession. That's that's our favorite game. And I managed to squeeze it in to this episode. You, you know Dan. Halligan lives in Utah now, OK. That's cool. He. He. Recently relocated to Somewheres in Utah. He mentioned it in his interview with Gareth in episode 100. So go back and check that out. Go check that out for sure. So welcome down. Where can people?
Where can people? Find you and Jake last night games on all the social medias and everything for those listening pretty much. Last night, games all jammed together on all the platforms. There you go there. It is got to keep it simple, right? You know, I, I think that I'm going to change the title of this episode to red feathers to black scales. I wrote that down during the show. I'm like red feathers to black scales.
I just that is a, that is an image that is going to stick with me throughout this conversation. So, so yeah, yeah. So Nathan, thank you so much for joining and, you know, giving us some insight into you and your brother's games, your company. Oh, what about the future? Any any titles you can tell us about that are we should be looking for? Yeah, so. This one is a new one. That's that we're we're taking a
print right right now. OK, it's actually entered print, but it's it's called Mystic Manor. It's kind of an interesting game. It's a haunted house. You play young explorers going through the house, riding it of the unwanted ghost apparitions and Imps. So OK. Has a little bit of that like. Crawl explorer feel to it, but it's it's easy to learn, just like the rest of our games.
I think that's the single. Attribute of all your games that has been consistent and I think is the strength is there accessibility to all players of all skill levels. I think that's great. So thanks again guys for watching, listening as always. We love having you. Please don't forget to like and subscribe. Leave comments down below. Nathan will be able to see them. I'll see them. We'll respond to them accordingly. So thanks again guys.