hello everyone. So we are speaking with c Marie Taylor, a founder of Equity Through Action, a consulting company that helps corporations and organizations examine their work through a race equity lens, and provides training and assistance to help organizations create equitable practices, policies, and mind shifts to create a just and inclusive anti-racist organiz.
Welcome. See Marie.
Thanks here. Good to see you.
So I had met you, when you were doing a talk for a different non-profit, and. We were there with Rich Violin who's a board member of w dc and Rich and I were thinking it would be great if you could also do something with Wif dc, one of which was the podcast that I'm happy to announce has been listened to every continent, including Antarctica.
so that was kind of exciting. But we do have a kind of a global. Yeah, so, so it's really exciting to, We've been wanting to media and monuments to talk to people about inclusivity, uh, especially in the media industry. so first I wanted to speak with you about how did you get started with equity through action?
That is a great question and I'd love to talk about the topic today. so the way that equity through action came about was, because of exclusion, right? So 25, 30 years ago, I started working on non-profit in the DC area. in the height of the hiv aids field, and I found that many times there were decisions being made without people who were impacted by the
So we'd make the decision throughout this policy. No one asked one person living with hiv. No one asked a person live with the aids. No one asked them. They just made the decisions. And I thought, well, that doesn't make. Right. Not that we can't help come to a good conclusion, but you really want the people who are impacted, um, to have a voice in like what should happen with them.
And so that's what really started my non-profit career. Um, path was trying to figure out, well, how, if I'm actually in the room, how can I leave the door open and make more space for people who should be in the room? Right? I shouldn't have been the only person in that room. So because of that, that's been my focus for the last 25 years, is how do we make spaces more inclusive?
How do we ask the right people? How do we find the people, um, who should be asked and then listen to them, Right? And sometimes get out of the way, frankly. So that's how ETA. Uh, came about was really, I found this space and wanted to then work with other non-profits, other for-profits, other community groups where we can really focus on being inclusive and that's being inclusive through our people, our policies and our processes, and frankly our behaviors.
Like, are we demonstrating inclusive behaviors? Right? Which comes right back to the media. Like what is that looking like?
your company uses the Jedi justice, equity, diversity, inclusion, but there are other acronyms.
Yeah, so a lot of folks are familiar with equity. Certainly folks are familiar with diversity, although sometimes it's not used correctly. Um, people aren't diverse. They're different than you are, right? Um, And inclusion, right? Which is where you're creating a sense of a belonging. You're asking people, we focus at equity through action on including the justice, because if we're working for a more just society, that means you are always thinking about the end result.
Whether you're producing a film, casting a commercial, writing a screenplay, booking a venue. Right. Getting volunteers to show up for your play. The justice is the long view of this work. How is it that we work ourselves out of a job and do something else? Because these issues are always thought about.
We're always thinking about equity, diversity, and inclusion in everything that we do. So for us, justice is really important. some. Just focus on some parts of it, which is fine. It's just really for equity through action. We focus on the long view of how do we create these systems, change behaviors so that we're thinking about a more just society.
Got it. And you sort of touched base on it. Uh, you, you worked with all sorts of different companies and organizations. Banks and law firms and things, but the Media Monuments podcast kind of focuses more on the film and storytelling industry basically, and media gets a lot of attention or for having diversity, or usually lack of diversity.
Um, and I wanted to hear from you like, what is it about seeing. The diversity or having a broader sense of voices behind the scenes and in front of the camera for audiences. I mean, I can, We're both female, uh, different backgrounds. My family's from Iran. Your, your, whatever you are, if you
African American
African American . Um, and it, so, so we all, were not often seen. Particularly for me, I was a nineties kid, so I never really saw myself growing up. And people were like, Why do you watch the Kardashians? And I'm like, because they literally Armenian basically the same thing. We have to go through laser hair removal, we have to eat salad because we are not, you know, this felt Victoria's Secret models, um, that you see on everything else and you know, all sorts.
And the families don't shut up. We always in each other's business. So I was starting to see myself a little bit more. Um, but people are still having trouble. For instance, the Little Mermaid, uh, live action at the time of this recording, the trailer, the teaser first came out. I mean, the news had come out that it's going to be a black woman who's playing Ariel.
Um, and there was a lot of uproar for it
How about a fictional character? My
a fiction. and a thing that does not exist. A mermaid,
There are the mermaids, people news flash. But so you get to the point, right? So yes, the media gets a lot of hype, push, pull, right? For their role and perpetuating stereotypes. And if you wanna go with this current pop, uh, topic around the Little mermaid where people are in uproar, that there's a black woman playing a fictional character, it speaks volumes to the power of the.
Right volumes of pop culture and how it seeps into the ethos of what we believe about people seeps into the ethos of what we believe about power, about how we share it, about our socialization, about the all justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion. Like why can't we have a black mer? It's a mermaid, which is not a thing, right?
So if you pull apart this one piece and the uproar that's happening, because the dominant culture, that being the white culture, right, says, Well, it's gotta be white. If it's not or it's not right. Even for a mermaid, So think about the societal, um, power that the dominant culture has and how it influences the media.
So the dominant culture has said that white is right, and so you have to have a white mermaid. So therefore, when you make this movie about a fictional character, you have to have a white person. Right, Which then seeps into the institutions, like when you're hiring, who you're hiring for this movie, and then seeps down to the next level, to the individual where I don't get to see myself as a mermaid.
Maybe I wanna swim in the ocean with the crabs and whatever happens in that movie, I don't even know. Right. But if you take that one example and translate it directly to the media, you've got the concept of society, of what's right. You have the institution That continues to reinforce. Right? And then you have what happens on the individual level. What I think about the Little Mermaid and how I show up and then my feelings and value and what we think about in this instance, black girls, black women, why can't a black girl see another black girl in the film? Right? And, and vice versa. Why can't a white person, right, see a black girl on the film and still feel some kind of humanity to them?
I certainly see with white people, cuz they're. So we're asking people to change their consciousness. Now I've gone down a rabbit hole. I'll pull us back up and try to, hopefully I answer just a piece of the question that you answer, but you can see how passionate I am about it.
Well, I know, and I think people were passionate about the, the arguments that I saw was that the Little Mermaid is a fairytale that was written by, was it a Danish, uh, fairy tale. And so there are no black people in Denmark or something. But at the same time, it's a fictional. You can blame, if anything, Disney for making it more worldwide, uh, for having the cartoon version.
And so I was like, But it's the C So the C doesn't care where you are from . Um,
So it, it is an interesting mindset that people have I was looking into what is considered more of, let's say, a black culture or African American culture. The film saved the last dance that came out in the early two thousands, had Julia Styles, a white woman who ends up going to a predominantly black high school and she tries to, she's a dancer and, but a ballet dancer.
And then the group of friends that she makes are more into like rap and hiphop, um, dancing, and they sort of don't, The community has a little bit of judgment to have this white girl learn their dance moves
Mm.
and, and so then it's trying to be. We should work together. And then of course the, you know, spoiler alert, the, the ending of the dance is combining both of the genres together that helps her get into her dream school.
So that's one example of seeing it from the other side of why you are the other, cuz usually the voices that we see in media tend. Decades, um, have been predominantly told by a certain type of voice. Um, and now we're getting a little bit more conscious of hearing not just by race or ethnicity, but by genders, um, by. Different belief systems as well. So I wanted to hear from your point of view, as a person who has a whole organization about that for businesses, how do you feel about that in media? I.
if you think about media, part of it, your imagination and what you want and storytelling and what you're portraying and giving people this sense of emotion, right? And the willing suspension of disbelief. So in the willing suspension of disbelief that you have in plays in movies, that means I suspend what I normally think and buy into the. So going back to save the last dance or going back to Little Mermaid, why can't we as humans suspend what we've been told by society, which is not always right and lean into the story. So why can't we have this woman who's doing ballet in hip hop? If I'm gonna suspend my, suspension of disbelief, I'm gonna stop that and lean in.
And then hopefully then maybe when I come out of that movie, I can envision that black girls can be. If I can believe for two hours that this woman can swim in the ocean, then maybe I can believe that this woman can run for president. Maybe this woman can lead an organization. Maybe this woman can run a a, um, a film company.
Maybe this woman can write a script. Maybe there's black people in Denmark, which there are, don't know where they are, but I'm sure there's seven to. Right? Maybe we could start to believe it. So if you think about these companies, part of your opportunity, is reframe how you're doing your work to create that sense of imagination and wonder in everything that you do, who are the vendors that you hire? Who are the script writers? Who's volunteering? Who are you casting? Who's doing your website? What are the images, right? if we think about the media, what is your opportunity to display more humanity, whether it's body type, hair type language, right? Cultural differences, the way that we are all humans and all want to be loved and valued and seen and heard.
I don't care where you come from, right? Everybody wants that. So I would say for media companies, what, What's your opportunity to display that humanity in any part of your.
I, I wanted to share, if it's okay with you, the, the exercise that you did at your talk that we went to, and how that could be in implemented with people who are media makers. so Simmery would say, take out a piece of paper, put five names of people that you trust that are in your inner circle, but they cannot be relative.
It could be a teacher, it could be a coworker, it could be a friend, whatever it was. And then you make a check mark for how many times they are similar to you.
it was religion, it was body type, it was ethnicity, it was education, how much money you make, and your whole point, I was like, if your inner circle is so much like. Imagine how much you're missing out as a manager, um, as someone who's in charge of a very large group of people. Um, you know, it was so nice to see the diversity of who I can go to and trust and get their perspective, whether it was money issue, relationship work, and I had that. So I was quite proud of myself and then I could see that the other people were like, Oh crap, she has a point.
right?
So I, I'm not ashamed to say I'm quite proud of myself for that. Um, and it just happened for me. But could you talk about how you started, How did you form that activity? Cause I thought it was so important. And then how can people sort of do that in the media industry
I love that question and I'm so happy that you had different check marks. Here's what I'll say. When I, the very first time I did that exercise, I didn't, Right. And so I was like, Whoa, oh, let me go get some new friends. Right? So, and I did, and now I do. Uh, mine was very particular, right? It was like short black women and master's degrees.
I was like, Uh oh. There's more than that in the world, right? Um, so part of my growth and my path, right? Cause I try to use I statements when we think about this work of seeking justice, learning about diversity, really having equitable practices and making inclusive spaces. How do I become more culturally intelligent?
Because my goal right in this path is to be more culturally intelligent. So if I have a media company, how can I be more culturally intelligent about the people?
Who work there, or the ones that I may hire, which then translates into the processes that we have at the organization, what practices we have The more culturally intelligent I become, the more inclusive of a work environment I can have. And half, Right. So going to your question, it's really about. The individual that owns that company, the individuals that own that company, the individuals that make up the policies, procedures, practices in that company to become more culturally intelligent and in effort to make your workplace more inclusive, which means learning about holidays, which means learning how to pronounce people's names, which means learning about gender pronouns, which means looking at who are the vendors that you're working.
right? It means looking at all the work that you're doing through an equity lens and seeing if there are changes that can be made with something like a holiday, with something like who you script for plays. You asked about that exercise about who we trust. Uh, part of that came from being a kid. I grew up in DC and then moved to Virginia and like my circles changed immediately cuz all the access I had to funding brown people left when I moved out of DC and went to Virginia. So I had to get a whole new circle.
So that is near and dear to me and shows to me that we can come up with new friends, new circles. And in this quest to be inclusive, that means we have to broaden our views. And so the, the, the example I was gonna give is you talked about, um, watching the Kardashians when I was in high school, I wanted to be Dracula, right?
Read the play. I was like, Oh, I am got. Dracula, That's it. I'm gonna win. I'm gonna be the, I'm gonna be the best Dracula there ever was. I auditioned, gave the performance of my life. I'm telling you, it was Tony Emmy, something worthy, and I just knew I was gonna get it. Drama teacher comes back to me and says, You gave a great performance.
You were excellent. Oh my goodness, I'd love to cast you in this. And I was like, Woo, amazing. But she said, But we can't because Dracula isn't a black. And I was like, But Dracula is a fictional character.
mm-hmm.
Dracula is purple, I think, I don't even know what color Dracula is. It's a fictional character. Right.
Like, are you kidding me right now? Right. But that person's circle of trust told them that thing.
Mm-hmm.
were like, Oh no, Dracula is a white guy from Romania. Is it though? It's Dracula.
that was one thing that I, I kind of wanted to see what your thoughts were. Let's say there is a very specific story that you want to tell. You're a writer, you're a director. You're an actor, you're a producer, whatever you are, and it's the story of you. So we'll use me for an example of like a Persian straight Bahai female. How can I also. Well, I guess there are main themes that is worldwide, love, hate, death, all that stuff. So even though we have stories of all that, uh, specifics, but they're specific background.
Hmm.
It's music, for instance, is very international, whether you listen to Beethoven. or Julio, you can connect to them in different ways.
Music transcends race or background
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Yeah.
when you are more of a storyteller in, in a more written form, in on screen. And you have that visual you, cuz I know we've been able to. accomplish this where you are. You might not be exactly like me, but you can relate to my story because even though I'm the one on screen, you're not seeing yourself represented visually,
So I'm wondering if you've noticed how that's done productively,
Mm-hmm.
Like how did you accomplish that or how as you right now, Anyone who wants to tell their story, they definitely should. But to keep how to be a little bit more mindful to be like, your story is a universal story. Or, or at least one other person might relate to that.
Right. So if I understand that, the deeper nuance of your question, right, So if you're telling the story about you is the assumption that the person should look just like you, and if they don't look like you, will the person believe the story, right? And so what I would say 17,000 years from now, The, hopefully the answer would be no, because the story will be so well written and all the other nuances about you and the story will come through that.
I will, going back to what I was saying before, I will, uh, suspend my thought process about what I thought this person should look like and lean into the story and one of the characteristics. And then next time I see a Persian person think that they could look all kinds of.
Mm, mm-hmm. . Okay. Got
So it requires two things.
I think it requires creativity on everyone's side, the person watching it, the person reading it, the person looking at it, the person casting it, right? So it requires creativity. It requires me seeking humanity in the character that I'm watching, and it requires on the other side, representation so that there is a place for stories about Persian people who are.
Filmed with Persian people in it, and there's a place about Persian folks where there are other people, there is a black person that plays that character.
Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.
I have steeped into my creativity, the representation, the humanity of it all. Does that make sense? So there, I think there's a place for both of them.
Yeah, I, while I was thinking of that example, I re, I'm thinking of what, Did win the Oscar Moonlight, But I was like, at the same time, I'm like, I am not a gay black man whose father, left, father figure is a drug dealer and mother is a drug addict from Florida.
Like I, I don't know if I can hand, but also he's, he's picked on. I, that was the, that's, that's where I drew the line. I was like, I don't know if I could handle this. But people really did connect to it. I personally, it was so sad, I can never watch it again, but I listened to the soundtrack, to the original score almost on a weekly basis. Because the music transcends. Like I, when I'm sad when I'm running or whatever, um, and you just know that this character's going through so much and whatever you are going through, you can relate to through the music. That was my personal intake. But that was another example of not everyone is going to be a gay black man who doesn't have really a solid parent parental figure, uh, and, and support system.
Right, But you, you lifted it up, right? Every, there are universal things, right? Everyone. Can identify with love and heartbreak and being bullied. People can identify with food rituals. People can identify with what it's like to be the new kid at school. People can identify with, with parenting. Or being a parent.
So there are these universal themes that we all go through, whether you're African American, transgender, transgender, African American, per whatever you are, whatever community you come from, there are universal things, universal shared humanity. I can't think of a group of humans who wants their heart. So if there's a story about heartbreak, even if I don't look like that person, I can relate to that.
But that requires me to seek the humanity in that character, which is where people get stuck, right? So if I am stuck in all my bias, let's go back to that ridiculous aerial. If I'm stuck in all my bias and I can't see the humanity of a black. I'm not going to relate to this story because in my bias, that person is not a human. They're not in my circle. I don't respect them. I don't see them, and I get to not see them because I'm in the dominant group. So I don't have to cast them. I don't have to write a story about them. I don't have to hire them. I don't have to give them an award. I don't have to learn their frigging name. And when they win the award, I don't have to do any of that.
Right. And that's what burns my britches.
Yeah, I feel like this, this got really great conversation cuz we moved from, okay, you are the one who's gonna tell the story if you run a film festival and, and how, who you hire and things like that to now it's also on the audience because everyone deserves to share their story. because if you're open to it, you can relate to it to yourself too and have that empathy, growing empathy, uh, to it. For me, I was thinking of like encouraging people to think a little bit outside the box when they want to showcase their work or if they want to work with others to, to look into it and say, Is it really just the same as me?
Cuz then how productive will it be for me? Um, but also when you're watching things too, look at the different stories out. Because yours is not the only one who you can relate to, the ones exactly like you. Is there anything else you want to share or add?
I think what I would add to that is if you're listening to this podcast and you're trying to figure out, well, how does it relate to me, what I would say and how it relates to me is I know as an individual, I affect an institution and I know that that institution affects a larger institution.
Right? And so for the breakdown for me, I know that as a business owner, I affect the people who work in the business and I affect other small business owners and I have access to other larger businesses. So when I have opportunities to lean into learning to seek humanity and others, It's an invitation for me to grow and change, and if I opt not to, then I'm missing an opportunity to grow and change and to leverage my personal power to change things that I don't think are right.
You asked how I started this company because I saw stuff was not right.
Hmm.
Right. Most of us have a sense of right and wrong and want things to be right. So within your personal circles, if you see things that are not right, then what are you gonna do to make a.
it's a tough question cuz sometimes people don't wanna do anything
It's like the first step is to recognize who, who do you surround yourself with? and, and go from there and see how much you want to expose yourself to other minds, other ideas, other cultures.
Mm.
So thank you so much to Marie.
I really appreciate your time. Um, do you want to share or plug anything of, We'll also have it in the show notes, but if you wanted to
I want to plug that, um, people continue to do, uh, self work and try to be reflective of how you can be creative in. The areas that you work in, particularly in the media. Um, go to our website, check out some resources, follow up with us, and just really stay curious about learning about other people.
Thank you so much
You're welcome. Thank you.
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Published: Nov. 13, 2022 @ 2AM Edit
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