The Art of Storyboarding

  Welcome to Media and Monuments. I'm your host, Tara Jabari, and today we have Jim Pinola. He's a storyteller and a freelance storyboard, artist and illustrator with experiences in short films, features, commercials, music videos, and documentaries.

He's also the writer, producer, and host of the podcast, an invitation to the invitation, which breaks down the 2015 film. The Invitation, the podcast has earned a claim from filmmakers and actors like Karin Kusama, John Carol Lynch, and Logan Marshall Green, among others. Jim is currently a graduate student at the Savannah College of Art and Design, pursuing an MFA in dramatic writing.

Welcome Jim.

Thank you, Tara. I'm very happy to be here. This is.

So to give a little bit of background for the listeners, I met you virtually, uh, because full disclosure, um, I like Logan Marshall Green

Don't we all

 so I was like, oh, I'm sure he's been on some podcasts and then yours came and popped up.

 What made you decide to delve into that particular film? Let's start.

Uh, that's a great question.  The answer is, it was something, I think I first had the seat of the idea in, let's see, probably like summer 2019. And I have to give, I have to give a shout out and at least some credit to someone who I consider to be like my, my pod father, if you will.

My podcasting godfather,  a writer, a journalist named Blake Howard, who's based out of Australia, I believe. And I mention him because in the summer of 2019, through the co-writer of the invitation, Phil Hay, who's married to Karin, who also produced the movie, he wrote it with Matt Man, Freddy, his writing partner through Phil Hay.

I found out about Blake Howard's podcast, which is called One Heat Minute, and the whole premise of that is he per episode, breaks down one minute from Michael Man's heat, one episode at a time. So

It's a long movie.

that is a very long movie. So you could see what an insane undertaking that is.

Right. Um, so I remember hearing about that through Phil Hay and just being like, wow, this is, this is so cool. And I think I was scrolling through episodes. He was already pretty deep into it at that point, and I noticed he, he had secured. An interview with Michael Mann himself, and I was like, wow. 

I was like, oh man, you know, what if, what if I did that one day? Ah, I'm not gonna do that. And um, and then fast forward to around like fall 2019,  I was very heartbroken and, uh, upset and. , you know, things like drawing, like storyboards, like illustrating, um, were just like, it, it felt very hollow and I needed a different creative outlet.

And I thought of that podcast thing again as like, and that like lit a spark in me. Like that made me excited about doing something creative. Um, I, they had no sort of like, previous emotional attachments to that medium, cuz I'd never tried it before. So it was like, it felt new, it felt fresh, felt genuinely inspiring. And then of course, that led into March, 2020. Um, so all the conditions, weirdly bizarrely fell in, fell into place a little bit.

Um, but I remained very proud of it and by the time I did make it a public endeavor and started publishing episodes and whatnot, um, it got a really, uh, good response from the people involved.  and because we, we started this conversation talking about Logan Marshall Green. Let me give him a shout out because I'm obviously a huge fan of him, not, not only as an actor, but as a filmmaker.

Um, and he, man, he said a few things. He has been so supportive and it makes me a little emotional. Um, he, uh, You know, when I first announced the podcast, he, he replied to, I think, to maybe some tweet of mine where he is like, Jim, this is great. Can't wait to hear your story. And then when I interviewed him, I got to tell him how much that meant to me.

Um, and on top of that, I think maybe a week or so after that, I'm not sure what the exact timeline is. I remember, uh, you know, opening up my phone and, and seeing,  LMG is now following you. And he had DMed me, saying, I, I didn't even remember what he said, but it was just, it was, it was blowing my mind.

This guy, this guy,

did he find out about the podcast?

I, I had tagged basically everyone I could find that was involved in the movie in my very first announcement tweet. 

it's super interesting and because I like work with a lot of, um, companies and non-profits and stuff about, with their social media, we're like, we gotta tag 'em.

mm-hmm. , right?

tag possible people we wanna partner with, we gotta whatever. Cuz you never know. And that, you're an exact good example of that I think.

 you had released it during lockdown

Yeah.

so people were sort of, couldn't go anywhere and stuff so they were kind of like, oh, what's this kind of thing? And it was just like the timing could not have gone better cuz you got the director, you got some of the actors, other people involved in the film.

Mm-hmm.

I was like, oh my God is like the dream come.

it was it? No, it totally was. 

Because an invitation to the invitation is, I think in essence it's, I was making it for two audiences. One was myself and then the other was the filmmakers, the cast and the crew sort of as a love letter. Like, Hey, I love your movie. I thought about it a lot.  it is a selfish project in that it was my excuse to finally dissect and explore  

Before podcasting, before going into graduate school for writing and all that stuff, you started as a storyboard artist, illustrator. Could you break it down to like, what does that mean for those who might not be aware?

 it is, uh, the role, um, of an illustrator or artist in pre-production, most often in pre-production, who essentially just draws out the shots or frames that are going to be filmed once production starts.

Um, so it is, it is, it's not, uh, something every director. Um, some people are very pro storyboards, some are very anti. There's some hilarious Verna Herzog quote where he says something like, you know, storyboards are like the tool of the coward or something, which is, I love Verna Herzog. It's, I think it's hilarious, but the point being that it's, um, it's very sort of a, a per director basis, you know, and also sometimes, you know, for like, uh, say a corporate gig,  the client just,  wants to see what the director is intending to shoot.

 so it's in essence a visual roadmap for  any filmed media, music, videos, commercials, feature films, short films, any visual media storyboards can be applied to that. Um, so it's, it's really like, sort of a comic book. It's doing the same things that comic books are doing, but um, with a more utilitarian purpose, if you will.

So do you work very closely with the director to get that vision,

 I'm trying to think if there have any, been any, uh, instances where I haven't worked closely with the director and I don't think there are any. So it, it actually is now that I think about it more closely, um, it is, it is sort of, um, a strangely intimate, uh, dialogue with the director because you are, as a storyboard artist, you're sort of, acting as  the executor of their vision literally in a way.

I mentioned that just because you, you can't really get that from a, uh, production manager or a cinematographer necessarily. Um, so it, it really has to be, uh, a one to one sort of dialogue for it to work effectively because, uh, communication between those two parties is, is everything. Um, so it, it is very much a director storyboard artist relationship for the storyboards to be created.

 there is a quote by Alfred Hitchcock who is saying like, he loved the storyboard process, that he's like, I basically am making the film a second time and it's

mm

cuz he already worked with the storyboard artist. Do you know what I'm talking about?

Have you

I, I've definitely read some version of that. His storyboards are so beautiful. I forget who the artist usually.

Yeah. and then I also remember the film Seven David Fincher seven. There's an alternate ending in the DVD extras.

right,

They didn't shoot it, but they had the storyboard

right.

it. And I remember watching it, I'm like, dang, that's dark. Or no, I'm sorry. The, or the original ending was not as dark as what they.

That was it.

spoil it for people, not gonna spoil it,

Mm-hmm.

did you ever watch those, um, extras? Do you know what I'm talking

I definitely watched the seven ones. I remember that. I, I don't remember the content of the ending itself, but I do remember seeing the boards, uh, as a sort of showing the deleted scene through the illustrations, through the frames. Yep.

so there are people who use it and I also found your Vimeo.

Mm. Yeah.

Um, and so it seems think like Campo Viejo.

Oh yeah,

is that a commercial?

 that was for a company called  edge dna, New York based company.  their specialization is sort of  VR and AR as an augmented reality type things. So anytime they would contact me, uh, to my knowledge, it would usually be for me to create images that they would then use as a pitch for a client like Campo Viejo or for Life Water, people like that.

So, so that was, that was usually my role when they would ask for something from me, I think, to, to, to sort of execute a pitch that they were working on.

Got

so it sounds like sometimes you have to be the eyes and, and think of. So it's a scene between two people in a cafe.

Mm-hmm.

I'll do from, and it's a man and a woman. One is from the man's side, one is from the woman's side over the shoulder. This is what I'm thinking. That's your interpret, like that's what you're visualizing?

Or are you talking to the director and he's like, I want it from, or they are asking for, I want it from the woman's side and then from his side, but I also want the woman's side to be in front of a window. Something like that. Like where? Who does that?

 I think maybe in early, early days getting out of undergrad, I, I can remember more instances of say being on a phone call with a director. And getting verbal directions and me like having to sort of like scramble to write notes either by hand or typing them somewhere on my computer.

Um, there have been times where I've sort of done very loose, rough thumbnails while speaking to a director. Um, and those were not super efficient ways of working. Again, those were like earlier days, so definitely still learning.  in the more recent years I've found that I think both for myself and the director, that the most efficient way of getting the boards themselves is to have in essence a a shot list from the director.

And that'll usually come in the form of an email, which is. , very helpful. It sounds simple and basic and it is, but it's so important because it shows both parties that there's a record of the shots that are wanted. So  when I come back with say, a first pass, it's like, well, if you look at the email chain you said wide, uh, of the taco stand, and you said two characters coming in from the foreground, you know, having that record, having that chronological document, I is so important in my experience, not just as like my own personal reference guide.

I can always go back to that. That's what they said. Okay. And like there like many times I will write out exactly what's in the shot list or something very similar. Use their own words  just to create that shared reality. You know what I mean? Because of course you're gonna get notes, you're gonna get changes, you're gonna get feedback.

But having that shared reality,  is, again, again, it's basic, but I, in my experience, it's so important. Um, but to answer your question, having a shot list is really  the best thing for a storyboard artist, I think. Um, because it, it just becomes sort of a bible. And, you know, I think maybe when I was younger, I probably had a perception or, or, um, a goal that being a board artist would be a place where I could really inject,  some creativity.

And of course you do. That goes without saying, but I only mention that because again, The more experience I accumulated, the more I realized the more clarity on the end of the director, the better. 

if you know exactly what you want as a director, that's gonna make both of our lives easier, cuz usually the turnarounds are very tight. So there, there isn't time to be like, oh, let's try this, let's try that. So the clearer you are as a filmmaker, the faster the results, the better the results.

 just being as, as communicative as possible really. 

so forgive my ignorance, but it would be. You are the first part. So, or is it more like the rehearsal stage where they can play around, they're like, oh, you know what want them to be to the side of the taco stand, not in front of this taco stand. We

Mm-hmm.

not over the shoulder, but side to side shots.

Like where does that come in your experience?

 I'll use,  a more recent, uh, project as an example maybe because of course, a lot of the time, um, I think part of what is,  fun about even the role of being a board artist is really no two projects are alike. There's gonna be different deadlines, there's gonna be different,  x, Y, or Z.

It's, it's very, very rare that it'll be exactly the same if ever. this music video I worked on maybe earlier this year or some months ago,  there was dance choreography. And the director had sent me, um, rehearsal footage of the choreography. So it wasn't the final actors doing it, but I, I assume it was the choreographers who were not only, uh, practicing the dance moves, but they were simultaneously practicing the camera moves that would go along with the dance moves.

Uh, and that ended up being enormously helpful for me because I could just screenshot that rehearsal footage and use those exact poses. And like, honestly, , I remember seeing, seeing that test footage and being like, well, you've kind of, these are the camera moves. This is the choreography. Um, are you sure you need me?

Of course, I didn't say that. Um, but it was the point being that there was, um, precision and forethought that was happening and it was being shared with me. So I was able to use that and I think because of that have, uh, ideal storyboards because I was able to,  get a peak into the other departments that were also working on this same project.

 which is another way of saying that  I don't think there's necessarily any real, um,

standard necessarily in terms of when they occur in pre-production, because even sometimes, like this is probably an outlier, but like, you know, mission Impossible will be in well into production and they will fly out a storyboard artist to observe the location, observe the set, and do the boards based on that.

That, of course, is. Hyper budget. Um, there's big stars involved.  but  there is flexibility is what I'm saying. So that probably comes back to the fact that no two projects are necessarily alike. Um, so I think it comes down to the director essentially how they want to sequence things. I think most directors have a good idea of how much time they would need,  to get the images they want, uh, before cameras officially start rolling.

Um, so there's, there's a lot of wiggle room, I guess hopefully that, that brings some insight.  I really think the only sort of, uh, golden rule, if any,  with boards is. Have them before you hit record.  that's the whole point having that map to not only, uh, make that sort of inner director vision tangible, but to share it with the crew, to share it with the, uh, the cast.

There's a great quote from Francis McDormand, I think on the, um, the criter in addition of Blood Simple. And she says something to the effect of like, anytime I meet a new director, the first thing I ask is, do you storyboard? And for her that's so important because it's like, oh, so you do have a vision, you do have some idea of what you're doing as opposed to just improving, you know, off, off the top of your head.

Um, so I, I, it's, it's, I always find that fascinating. I love that there are sort of acolytes on both sides.  I love the Matrix films and the first three were just storyboarded within an inch of their life. It was so meticulous. It was again, like a comic book.

If you look up those storyboards, they are a comic book. It, it, they were drawn by comic book artists. Steve Gross, Jeff Darrow, um, and I was watching the special features on the newest matrix film Resurrections and Lana Wasowski, the, the director is talking about how she basically no longer storyboards.

And I mean that, this is getting into so many other conversations, but,  I just find that so fascinating that there, there's room for both. And I think in her case, um, it's just interesting because she had basically gotten to a place, Of confidence as an artist and filmmaker where she just didn't need the boards anymore.

And it, it, it also mirrors things that happened in her personal life. But, um, essentially she had just become so experienced, so confident that it's just like, no, I know what I'm doing . And I think that's awesome. I think that's so cool. So there, there's room for both in the world of filmmaking, and I think, I just think that's, that's cool.

So I don't take it personally when filmmakers like her agger like, fuck story war. You know, I think they're great, but, you know, there's room for both approaches and there should be.

Well, my mistake that you're also working on your first like short film.

 I've produced a couple short films in the past for fun. Um, the one I'm producing right now, I think it's safe to say it's the first time where I've been the sole producer, the only producer on it.  and it's, I've never done one on this scale before. It's, it's obviously micro budget, but, um, being the only producer on it and doing it at this level  is a new experience for me.

And, uh, I'm definitely learning. And I actually had a, meeting with the director today, an old friend of mine, and we were having a very similar discussion where, um, just talking about, you know, the things we missed and how this is gonna help going forward. And we, we watched an assembly cut of what we had shot and we were just taking notes on, um, you know, dialogue replacement that we're gonna need from most, if not all, of the actors.

And that's been a really fun process cuz it's also a short film that  I was, uh, the screenwriter for,  which adds to how personal it is.  But it, as I said, to uh, some classmates of mine, it's one of the gratifying things about it has been how I've been reminded that I just  really love the sort of smaller scale indie way of making a movie.

By which I mean some of my peers produced, uh, films that were a little more crew heavy, uh, a little more technical, um, things of that nature. And there are pros and cons to larger crew, smaller crew obviously. But I guess in my current experience, I was just reminded how much I really enjoy the sort of fast and loose organic approach that really gets facilitated when you do have a smaller crew.

Like I think our crew is. It's like maybe like a four or five person crew, which is really, which is really small. And again, like, you know, everyone's doing double duty because of that. But one of the strengths,  I found was that  we could work in a very sort of discreet and fast way.

 it all takes place in one location. So that helps a lot.  And, uh, the, the staff at the location were so, so generous. So that is also huge. Um, but all of that being said, I, I still think  there's really something special about the sort of space. That  you're given when you don't have to basically play a game of telephone with like eight different department heads, you can really just sort of, and at least in this scenario,  it just created, uh, an environment where we could move quickly and efficiently. And those are not two adjectives you hear a lot when it comes to filmmaking  necessarily. Um, so anything that creates the conditions for you to, uh, work fast and efficient and have fun while doing it, that's great.

And that was my experience, in production in these last few weeks. and that's, you know, the invitations was made under similar circumstances. So I was definitely thinking about that. Like, you know, it's not a lot of money, not a, not a lot of people, but. There are benefits to it. And it, and I was tangibly reminded in a, in a firsthand way that there, there is something to that.

And I think that is more my style when it comes to, to making stuff, to making movies is that more intimate approach. I think  that resonates more strongly with me, at least on a creative level.

did you do storyboarding for these shorts

not this. Yeah, the short, the short that I'm, uh, I'm in post production for right now. It's called Closed Casket. It's a very silly comedy. Um, I wrote it as well, and there was, there's a brief discussion between myself and the director about doing boards and the director, John, my friend, I've, I've done boards for him in the past.

He's, he's in post for another film, actually. He's in Post for Closed Casca and another film simultaneously. And I, he asked me to do a few boards for that as well. So we have done that many times. Um, and we didn't end up doing it for this, um, I think probably just because of, again,  it being a one location story, um, engendered a sort of, uh, space where, uh, it, it, in other words, it wasn't a super meticulous or action heavy plot, so it could be a little more, um, organic, which it was.

So still had a shot list. But, um, the other thing about storyboards is they are generally speaking, uh, used more for action heavy or complex sort of sequences, which is why you'll. Most often see them for like a car chase or a, you know, or a foot chase or anything that involves sort of, um, fast cutting and high speed things of that nature.

Um, but again, they serve multiple purposes. Sometimes a client just wants to see what a director is thinking, um, and it doesn't have to be something super crazy or bombastic.  but yeah, I think the only time I had really considered doing boards  for this short foreclosed casket was in a, was in a promotional aspect because it was relatively speaking a, a simple thing to shoot and it didn't beg for pre-visualization.

Um, the only way I had really considered doing them was as a way to promote the movie. And there's, that is still a possibility in a weird way.  but I have boarded things I've shot in the past, and it's as, as someone who is, who is not a director, um, my limited experience in sort of communicating, uh, what's in the drawn storyboard frame to a camera operator or cinematographer, it's just very, confidence instilling tool because I think the good directors are good communicators.

Um, and if you are having trouble, uh, communicating what a shot is, just being able to point at a picture.

Yeah.

eliminates that whole issue, essentially. Or it could, but you see what I mean? It creates a shorthand that is very valuable, you

Well, it goes back to that Alfred Hitchcock,  I mean, he was like, oh, I've already done this.

right.

that. He was like, I already filmed this

I love that.

illustrator.

I love it. I have a lot of love for, for storyboards on sequential art, and part of the reason I've, I've sort of begun to slowly pivot away is because I think there are just way better , way better people out there to be doing it other than me.

Um, I, I have, I have so much love for the art form. I was just, I was at my brother's yesterday or two days ago and I was browsing his shelf and I picked up the tenant, uh, paperback that he had on, on his shelf tenant as in the Christopher Nolan screenplay.

Oh yeah, that's right.

Yeah. And, and I immediately flipped to the back because I knew there were storyboards in it.

And I, I don't think I'd ever really looked at them before. And I just like, I just got so sucked into them.  I find it so unique. I find it to be such a unique medium because. Say by comparison, comic books like that is the final form. The comic book, the graphic novel that is the final form.

Storyboards are sort of like, they, they occupy a weird liminal space where they have that very utilitarian, uh, context where like, it's like, alright guys, this is what we're shooting today. Get the DP over here, get the lead over here. This is what we're doing, this is the idea. Um, and then you shoot it and you edit it and they've sort of served their purpose and they, they sort of get locked away or whatever, thrown in a vault.

Um, but they're often so beautiful and then you get to compare the board with the final shot. And I, I just find that so fascinating how they are both artistic and utilitarian essentially. I feel like that's, that's sort of like a strangely rare mix. Um, and I think it's a reason I will, I will always. Just love, love them.

And, and, and I especially love, love them for live action because in animation it's, it's really non-negotiable. You, you have to have storyboards period for your film and live action like we were discussing. You've got your herzogs. Were like, no, no, no. And you got maybe se Nolans were like, oh, we need boards.

So the fact that it is, it is sort of artist specific, uh, it, it just creates this, um, this sort of conversation about, what is required of,  films,  and how does the choice to use boards or not really affect your movie. I like that. I just think it's so cool. Um, and, you know, so many things are of course becoming automated, right?

Um, And now, and now we've got AI art, that's a whole new wrinkle to the, to the creative conversation. And despite all that, like, I never really see storyboards going away. And I think that's so, I think that's so cool. Like, um, as, as much as we can sort of defer to, uh, to machinery and to artificial intelligence, uh, miraculously it's like there's, I don't know, there's just, it's, it's just specific enough that I, I can't really, in my current, uh, full form, imagine automated storyboards,  there's of course 3D pre-visualization that's used as a sort of, um, alternative to storyboard sometimes.

But, you know, uh, at the end of the day, a film is. A 2D screen or a 2D projection. So, you know,  there is that sort of crossover, uh, between the final,  image and what the artist is drawing on an iPad or a piece of paper.  I don't think they, they will ever really, truly be phased out. They're just too useful.

They're too,  and movies are too expensive

Yeah.

for them not to exist. So you know what I mean? Like we, we've got the Le Ows of the, you know, of the world who, who are brilliant enough to show up and, and improvise. But for the rest of us storyboards are a godsend

Yeah.



Well, thank you so much,

Thank you.

and congratulations on all the success with your podcast, with your short films and, and graduates degree and, and becoming a master is what I call it

Thank you. Hmm. I thank you. Appreciate it so much. I had so much fun.