Welcome to Meaningful Work Matters. I'm your host Andrew Soren and today I'm joined by Dr. Gitima Sharma, professor at California State University, Fresno and founder of Coach Inspire. Gitima's journey to articulating and actualizing purpose has come from a lifelong path of exploration, engagement and reflection.
From her early years in India with depression and anxiety to her practices of Buddhism and peace activism, from navigating as a first generation academic in the United States to balancing professional aspirations with motherhood, Gitima has developed a powerful understanding of purpose not only through years of high quality research, but also
from a healthy dose of ME search. All of it grounds her view of purpose as something that rises above a pursuit of happiness towards a deeply rooted intention to advance positive change both within ourselves and society. In this episode we talk about Gitima's research with students from minority and first generation backgrounds as well as her five part model for cultivating purpose, a flexible and reflective approach that I think can help all of us align our daily work with
our values and our desires to find fulfillment. I think that this model is especially relevant for those of us who face challenges articulating boundaries or managing systems that can sometimes feel at odds with our sense of purpose. I hope this conversation leaves you as inspired as it did me and that it offers you a few tools and some encouragement to reflect on your own sense of purpose, whether at work or in any part of your life.
Welcome to the Meaningful Work Matters podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Soren, founder of eudaimonic By Design. On this podcast we'll dive into the world of meaningful work, explore its complexities and examine its impact on people and the organizations they're a part of. Each episode features insightful conversations with cutting edge experts who are successfully navigating the challenges of meaningful work.
We hope to offer you ideas, frameworks and tools to unlock potential and design work that's fulfilling, impactful, and supports everyone's well being. Subscribe or follow us now in let's Make Meaningful Work Matter. Kitty Ma Sharma it is so nice to have you on the podcast on Meaningful Work Matters today. I am so excited to be able to have this conversation with you. We met gosh already like 6 months ago I believe, maybe even more at this fascinating consortium of people who study
and research Purpose at Stanford. And I feel like as soon as we sat across from each other at that first opening dinner, the floodgates opened and I feel like I could have just never stopped talking to you. So I'm really excited to be able to have you on the podcast today. Welcome and. And yeah, thank you for being here. Same here. Andrew, it was so wonderful to connect with you and then, you know, especially like connecting with you based on
our shared humanity. It was first time we were meeting, you know, we come from different countries, different professions, but have similar values and commitment for our work. So thank you. As I always do on this podcast, I'm going to start by asking you to say a few words about yourself and then tell us about what makes your work meaningful. Sure. So I am Gitima Sharma. You know, if it's okay, let me just share my personal story a bit because that is what started the work that I'm doing when
I was in high school. At that time I was really grappling with lack of confidence, lack of hope for future and anxiety. And it was primarily stemming from my parents struggles with depression and suicidal ideation. And at that time, one of my teachers who saw my potential, even if I couldn't see my own potential, gifted me a book by a renowned Buddhist philosopher and peace
activist, Dr. Daisaku Ikeda. And when I started reading his books, I started really transforming the way I saw my own self, the way I saw others, the way I saw my future. And I genuinely felt so in rhythm, you know, with this conviction that each one of us has a unique purpose that only we can fulfill. And when we awaken to our life's purpose, then we are able to bring forth the inherent strengths as well as tap into the external resources that we need
to be able to fulfill that purpose. And you know, that awakening to our purpose also becomes like this inner compass that not only provides us direction and hope, but also it enables us to persevere through the darkest of moments, through reading those books, engaging in dialogues with my teacher, attending some grassroots activities that promoted peace culture and education based on philosophy of Buddhism.
Then I started reflecting on, okay, what role can I play on the grand stage of world peace and happiness of all? And at that time, I think I was around 19 or 20 that I really resolved that I want to use my life to reduce depression and anxiety in society. And that's why I moved from India to the US to pursue my master's degree in counseling, then my PhD
in counselor education. Now I work as a professor, nurturing the next generation of counselors and therapists, doing extensive research on the area of sense of purpose in life as well as a founder of Coach inspire to myself provide coaching, consultation and speaking engagements that can inspire sense of purpose and hope in others hearts. Thank you for that story, Katima. There's so much in there that I know that we're going to unpack, and especially I think starting with a perspective
that you're not coming to. Sense of purpose from a Western paradigm perspective that so much of this conversation, I hope, dives into some of the cultural nuance and context of the ways in which you're thinking about a sense of purpose, about the connection to Buddhism, about the connection to other kinds of teachings, about how that ultimately informs your own very pro social actions in the world. So I'm excited to use that as an entrance point to dive into this topic. So maybe let's start
at the biggest and then we can kind of dive down. Let's start with just how you define purpose. How is that influenced by some of the things that you've just shared about kind of where your sense of purpose comes from? Sure. My definition of sense of purpose has been impacted by a lot of research in the area of purpose, specifically with Dr. Yuhi Menkel. I have now published more than 30 research articles on purpose.
And one of our recent articles that got published, I think in the year 2022 is when we officially defined, you know, how we were conceptualizing the construct of purpose. In this article, I begin by sharing Dr. Daisaku Ikeda's perspective on this concept of human revolution. What it refers to is the fact that presently we are facing as humanity, unprecedented struggles that include war in our global family violence, hate crimes division, recovering from global epidemics.
It's a lot, right? However, even if these struggles are unprecedented, they are not unique in any way. Because as humanity, we have continued to undergo these cycles of epidemics, violence, war. Because even if we change, like, even if generations change and policies change, the reality is that until people's hearts and minds do not change in the direction of good, nothing substantial can be achieved,
nothing long lasting can be achieved. So Dr. Ikeda emphasized that as humanity, in response to many struggles, we have undergone many revolutions like industrial revolution, green revolution. But what is important more than ever is to undergo human revolution or inner transformation of our own hearts and minds in the direction of greatest good, but also purposefully engaging in actions that are rooted in compassion and can promote not only our own individual well being,
but also collective well being. So then, rooted in this concept of Human Revolution, Dr. Yuhi Menko and I defined purpose as people's underlying intention to achieve their life's most cherished and meaningful goals through fulfilling which, not only will they advance a positive change
in their own life. So maybe in Terms of their self growth, the financial benefits that they're looking for, how they want to contribute to their own family, but also be able to advance a positive change in society at large, in their own communities, in line with the causes they care about. And I understand, right, Andrea, this was one of the point of discussion even when we were at Stanford University together, is that everyone's purpose is not noble, it's not pro social, it is not
rooted in advancing a positive change. That's true. However, research has continued to show that when our purpose is linked even to making a positive difference beyond ourselves, then we experience greater well being, oriented outcomes and we are able to persevere more. We are able to even experience greater career and financial success. Right, because we are able to tap into so much more potential that we have than if we were just focusing on our own wellbeing
and our own immediate personal goals. So that's where this definition of purpose comes from. I want to, I want to try to dig even a little bit deeper on this idea that this conception of purpose is deeply rooted in a sense of the good. What is the good? I mean this idea of kind of human revolution moving towards kind of good. And I feel like that's very much, it's very parallel to things that I care a lot about in terms of the kind of Aristotelian roots of Eudaimonia.
I mean eu of Eudaimonia. The EU in ancient Greek is good. Right. This idea that within us all lives this good demon that has the goal of potential. Our goal is in many ways potentiating that good spirit that exists within all of us. I'm curious if you can just say any more about kind of how this sense of good is anchored into your conception of purpose. Yeah, I actually really appreciate your focus on eudaimonic well being. You know, in similar to eudaimonic wellbeing.
There is this concept in Buddhism of distinction between relative happiness and absolute happiness. It states that the highest good is to really become happy, you know, and to really promote others happiness and well being. But what is happiness? Happiness can either be relative or it can be this inner sense of joy that we feel in living life itself, you know, and advancing collective
well being and well being of all other forms of life. So relative happiness is something like a partner can give it to me based on the amount of time they spend with me or you know, when we have certain goals in terms of, let's say our work or finances or whatever, you know, but the reality is it's relative because it's dependent on external environment. And when our external environment changes, then this sense of happiness would change.
And unfortunately, in our capitalistic world, I think many of us are socialized to seek our happiness outside ourselves and we are socialized to achieve one thing after another, to be able to prove our
own worth to ourself and then become happy. But in contrast is this concept of eudaimonic well being that you were referring to and absolute happiness which is, which is well swathed from within, which is indestructible, which is not dependent on external environment, but it purely comes from living life that is so true to our highest potential and a life through which we can muster the kind of courage, wisdom, compassion that we need in order to advance a positive
change. Again not only in our own life, but also in life of others beyond ourselves, through whatever we are doing, whatever career, family, communities we represent. This idea of like the deep courage, wisdom, compassion, those were the three words you just used as the basis of this human revolution towards good, towards goodness is, is breathtaking. I mean it's a really beautiful concept. And I also, I mean the little I know about Buddhism also knows that suffering
is a big part of that equation too. And you need courage, wisdom, compassion to work through all of the various forms of suffering that life is going to throw us in the journey towards that. Yeah, yeah. And you know, the way we view suffering then is that we can transform even the deepest of sufferings to be able to relate with others who might be suffering in similar way and be able to give
them hope and courage that they need. And that's how we are able to transform our hardships or karma into mission or purpose. So no, suffering also goes a waste because it expands our humanity, it polishes our own heart, and it really polishes our capacity to make a positive difference in others life. So this conversation about purpose that we're having right now in this, this kind of Eastern Buddhist perspective is, seems to be very anchored on a big P kind of life oriented human revolution
kind of purpose. But what's the relationship between that and the way that you've studied career or work and especially in the populations that you're working with? Absolutely. So you know, when I started my PhD in counselor education, it was rooted in my own sense of purpose to really reduce depression and anxiety in society. Right. Because I experienced the impact that depression can have in one's family and also for my mother's
health. My mom actually passed away at a very young age of 46 and I could see the impact of depression on her physical health. So I am extremely committed to building a world where people don't suffer in isolation and where they can receive the external resources and tap into the inherent strengths that they need in order to
persevere. But not just persevere, but persevere in a way that's genuinely happy and that honors their mental health and their physical health, their well being, their family's well being. So when I was doing my research during my PhD to identify the factors that protect people against depression, I found that sense of purpose is more protective against feelings of depression and specifically suicidal ideation than even life satisfaction.
And yet many times what we are chasing is sense of satisfaction in life, but in critical moments, it is our sense of purpose that protects us and keeps us going. So and that of course validated my own life's experience, you know, this research finding, because it was my sense of purpose that helped me to continue
to persevere. And then I dedicated my initial years of my research to strengthening students sense of purpose, specifically students who represent minority ethnic backgrounds or our first generation students, or our immigrants here specifically in the US on how we can honor and foster their sense of purpose so that they can persevere on their educational journey. Then I also started, you know, once my identity became that of young mother in academia, I have two kids, four and nine years old.
So then I started reflecting on the role of purpose in helping my work, life harmony, in contributing to my own wellbeing. So then my research also shifted to exploring the role of purpose and passion for work among working adults.
And now as founder of Coach Inspire, I support busy professionals to be able to strengthen their sense of purpose so that they can experience greater harmony and not feelings of guilt, insecurity, role conflicts that naturally come when we are trying to do everything we are trying to do. Let's dive into some of those different kind of intersectional identities
that you're just describing. But I think it's so interesting that you have and you continue and you choose to work with first generation populations, specifically in a US context. And I would imagine, imagine as students in a first gen context, thinking about a sense of purpose is something that can be extraordinarily freeing, it can possibly be totally overwhelming.
It can be a concept that might be over and beyond, it might be the reason why people are there, that truly purpose can mean so many different things from kind of a first generation or an immigrant kind of perspective. So tell us a little bit about kind of what you're noticing. The role of a sense of purpose really has in that kind of a population?
Absolutely. Actually, I was also so surprised with one of my studies that I did to explore the nature, role and development of purpose among students from underrepresented ethnic backgrounds and first generation students, because most of the research right on purpose has been done in predominantly white institutions. So naturally, the findings do not always align with the lived experiences of those who represent
diverse backgrounds. In this particular study, for example, what I found is that many students talked about their purpose in relation to how they want to live a life of gratitude and repay their gratitude to their parents who have undergone so many struggles associated with immigration to be able to provide them the better future. Some of them also talked about in the context of development of purpose, is that
how they did not believe in themselves? Because I think everyone has hopes and dreams and expectations for their future, but many times they feel that they don't have a purpose because deep down they don't even believe in themselves. Right. They do not believe in the dignity and potential of their life. And some of these students were talking that how
when they were able to encounter right. Mentors in educational environment or were able to participate in certain trust you activities that really affirmed their own life potential, then they started even reflecting upon what is their purpose and started making career decisions that aligned with how they saw themselves to make a difference in the community.
Another theme that really came up was for many, their purpose was not only to achieve their present goals, but they talked about how they want to open a way for other students who represent their ethnic background and the struggles that they have experienced and be a role model or be a mentor or open a way for them to be able to succeed.
So they talked a lot about their purpose in the context of their family history, reaping their gratitude to others, awakening to their purpose through first awakening to their own potential and the role that, you know, mentoring and positive encouragement played.
It's so interesting. It's so interesting. And you can hear even in your description, so much more of a kind of a we orientation to purpose than a me orientation to purpose, which feels often so much of the ways in which I hear kind of a very Western, educated, industrialized, rich kind of perspective on purpose is so anchored in a
kind of me orientation or an individualized orientation. There's so many of the ways in which you've just articulated purpose that's much more about the collective, about an us, about kind of mentoring, supporting, ultimately being there for others. Yes, tell us. Sorry, go on. It's not different, right, Andrew? Like there's this Analogy that I was reading in a book discussions on youth,
it's actually for high school students. And in that, you know, there's this analogy that just the way earth rotates on its own axis while revolving around the sun. Similarly, a truly happy and fulfilling life is the one in which we take action for our own happiness, our own well being, our own goals in line with our own potential and strengths while
taking action for others well being. There are many who feel that all they can do or all they should do is take action for others well being or just collective wellbeing. But then they compromise on their own wellbeing and their own dreams and aspirations. That is also not healthy, right? And then there are some who only focus on what are my strengths, my potential, my desires, my aspirations, without even reflecting upon how I can use my life
to advance a positive change beyond myself. And even that won't bring lasting happiness and fulfillment. So truly happy and fulfilling life resides in this. And that's why, you know that definition of purpose, right? Something through which we would benefit our own self while also benefiting others is such a key. And it's not distinct because in the actions that we take for ourselves, we rejuvenate and we
build our energy to be able to continue to contribute to others. And the actions that we take for others, we get even more fulfilled and get this drive and energy to continue to take action for ourselves. Tell me about the relationship between having a sense of purpose and then having the means or financial resources, the socioeconomic position, the power to potentially exercise your purpose. Yeah, that's, you know,
one of, I think one common theme that emerged, right. And even in our discussions at Stanford and has continued to come up in research is that purpose is often seen as a concept of privilege, that only those who have abundant resources or the privilege to even reflect on their purpose have a purpose. But that's not true, right? Because even people who are struggling with lack of resources, lack of belief in their own selves, even they, everyone has a purpose that they
can fulfill. However, what is important in this context, and you know, there are certain phases on purpose development that I highlighted in my research, which is to explore, to engage, reflect, articulate, and then actualize. And I focused on actualization because I realized that, yes, you know, many times specifically students who don't have the resources they might be, they might become really aware of their purpose. Right. Once we start engaging
in purpose centered interventions and dialogues. But what is also needed is, I think what our care should be for should also be how they can Continue to persevere on the path of their purpose and actually actualize the goals that they have for themselves. And that's where resources come in. So feel our work as purpose driven leaders and wellbeing coaches, consultants, professors who want to inspire sense of purpose in others hearts goes beyond helping them to just awaken or
become aware of the purpose. It also goes into how we can support them to set goals or access the resources and tap into the inherent strengths that they need to be able to actualize their purpose. And because fulfilling our purpose is lifelong journey, we need support, you know, and without support, none of us can continue to thrive in the direction of our hopes and aspirations. Want to take that five part model that you've got, you know, explore, engage, reflect, articulate, actualize. And so
it's. I really like that sequence. I think it's a really helpful way of kind of anchoring what the process is of kind of realization, but then actual forwarding of action in some way, shape or form. So can you walk us through a little bit more about the work that you do around cultivating purpose with
individuals? And yeah, again I'm kind of curious about how you see that work potentially differing from kind of other approaches that you've seen in the purpose development kind of context specifically and kind of western kind of oriented perspectives. Absolutely. My work in the context of purpose development began in the year 2021 when we were sort of, you know, battling right with COVID and the retention rates of students had really fallen. You know, many students were struggling to
persevere. And not just students, but there were a lot of faculty and staff members in academia who were also leaving their jobs because of everything that they had to balance while working from home. So at that time I received an award to create a course titled as Fostering Sense of Purpose. That's when I did extensive research and then came up with this model of five faces which build on each other but are not sequential because anyone can find themselves in whatever phase,
right. So the first one is to really explore. And with exploration, you know, what I refer to is the idea of really exploring who we are. Because who we are determines what we want to dedicate our life to. And who we are is influenced not only in the context of our personal strengths, our passion, interest, but also our family's history, family's heritage, our socio cultural identity, our community, the causes that our community cares about.
So that's the first phase to explore. The second is to then also engage because we don't awaken to our purpose by just Standing still and reflecting. We awaken to our purpose by taking action with the causes that we care about, by challenging the goals that we have right in front of us. And it's like we are, you know, one of the analogies that Dr. Ikeda uses is that it's like when you're climbing the mountain. So when you're climbing the mountain, the higher
you go, the view becomes clearer. The higher you go, the view becomes clearer. It's, you know, it's not healthy to put the stress on ourselves to be aware of everything. Actually, when we are struggling, we are not always aware of the underlying meaning and purpose when we are amidst the struggles. But if we get the right support, we tap into right strengths and we overcome that one struggle, the view or the meaning and purpose becomes clearer and clearer. So that's engagement.
Then third is to reflect. Because many times we take these actions in our own life, in our community, but we don't get dedicated time and space and support to reflect upon how we are, you know, who we are, what we are dedicating our life to, connects all together in this overarching frame of purpose. That's where the power of reflection comes in. Then comes the
stage of articulation. Because in many of my studies, participants have mentioned that, and doesn't matter the age group of my participants, but they have mentioned that it was almost their first time to even talk about their purpose. So we have not yet built work environments and educational environments that honor such dialogues that can help people to
reflect upon their underlying purpose. So articulation and then actualization that I was referring to that once we are clear about our underlying intent and vision, it is so important to, you know, come up with the goals. Actually what you shared at Stanford, right? It's like we have this vision, but then what's our mission? And then what are the resources that we can use to fulfill our many goals through which we are trying to accomplish our overarching purpose is actualization.
One of the things about this model that I think is so powerful is the fact that you're sandwiching action around pausing and reflection, right? So there's an inherent pause before you even start to kind of bring attention and focus to this question, to be able to explore, to be able to engage.
Then a pause around reflecting, using that forward momentum as an opportunity to reflect and try to figure out what am I learning, and then taking that back forward into articulation in terms of actualization, you know, this constant kind of awareness of the non linearity of the process of the Curvilinearity, I guess, of the process is so true to, I feel like what purpose is all about. It's not a constant
thing. I'm constantly evaluating in myself as, as I do work, what that means, how that impacts my purpose, how that helps me shape, how even the helping me shape, the helping me articulate, then makes me go back to the reflection to consider, to think to, then, you know, use that as forward momentum for the actualization. Yeah, yeah. I actually love the way you articulated it right now.
You know, for me, these five phases and, and the importance of that pause and reflection and I feel that's how I
also live my day to day life. You know, it usually begins, you know, with an active meditation in which I reflect upon what is my intention for the day, what's my, what's my goal, you know, what do I want to really be able to achieve in this day while filling my life with this sense of appreciation for everyone I'm surrounded with and the opportunities I'm going to be with so that I can be fully present in the moment.
You know, like for example, when I'm with my 4 year old, if I can be fully present with him, honoring that time with him, because that's where my purpose is in that moment when we are engaging in this dialogue through a podcast, to be fully present and honor this time and deeply appreciate you, and when I'm writing to be fully, you know, honor that time because I feel purpose
is not like this final destination we will reach. Right. But even this capacity to reflect and be present in the moment and honor and appreciate is part of living a purpose driven life. How would you, how would you take those five steps and apply them in the context of a day job? You know, somebody who's just, you know, stuck at work thinks that perhaps they have no purpose at work. How did those five steps help someone make sense of purpose at work?
Yeah, this is a very common question that I get asked especially, you know, when I'm engaging in speaking engagements. Most recently it was at Google and it was pretty, you know, like heartwarming to see that people might represent whatever profession or industry, you know, they are in, but at core,
many are grappling with similar questions. So, for example, one question that came up in that forum was that I see my purpose really rooted in nurturing my children, but I see my career as not so purpose driven, you know, but in that moment I was able to appreciate the fact that this person at least feels a deep sense of purpose when it comes to our own Family, because there are so many who are experiencing that void or emptiness where they're not able to experience purpose even
in the context of family or community or personal life and not at work. Right. But every area of our life is so interconnected. Like, you know, a bamboo stick. When you, when you break a bamboo stick, like all, you know, all the joints get broken, get ruptured at the same time by rupturing one joint. So this analogy communicates that breakthrough in one area. Experiencing deep sense of purpose in one area can trickle this sense of purpose and joy and fulfillment in
all other areas. Our different areas of our life are not so different, you know, so even if our career is a means to fulfill our purpose at our family or for our community, it's beautiful. And then to approach our career with this sense of appreciation and joy. And for those who are really looking for a purpose driven career, many of my clients reach out to me, you know, for coaching when they are.
When either they got laid off or they want to start their own business or they want to make a career transition in line with their purpose and values. And that's beautiful too. And that's
where a lot of strategies that research has proven comes in, right? Like to be able to identify our strengths, reflect upon our mission, our own mission statement, and to be able to actively build the strengths, the capacities and skills that we need, as well as tap into the resources and mentoring that we need to actualize that career path that we believe really aligns with our values and purpose. I appreciate
that answer. I appreciate that answer. Not, not least of which, because I think that sometimes we put too much emphasis on work as having to provide the sense of purpose or meaning in our
lives. And, you know, as, as other people on this podcast, like Michael Pratt have made very, very clear, there's many different reason people might go to work, and there's very utilitarian reasons so that we can have the purposes that we want outside of work, so that we can work to live as opposed to live to work in different contexts in different ways. And so very much appreciate that kind of recognition that sometimes the purpose of work is to allow us to find our purpose outside of work.
Right? Right. And there are some of us who have chosen our career that aligns so much with our purpose. Right. Like my journey as a high school student and now, as you know, a professor, coach, consultant,
is all rooted in my purpose. But I'll be honest, you know, once I started working as a young mother in academia, my first born was just three months old and I was teaching courses, I'd 4 to 7pm, 7 to 10pm and you know, I knew that research has shown that it's only 15% of women who get highest promotion here in the U.S. not because women are not capable. Women are actually extremely capable. But women are often pulled in the direction of investing in emotional labor
when the decisions for tenure and promotion are. Do not acknowledge that. So for example, women take a lot of, a lot of advising loads committee work. But the decision for tenure and promotion are often based on number of publications and our teaching evaluations. And within my second year I too was, I was chairing, you know, two programs. I was, I was chairing more than five committees. And then when I was asked to chair another committee,
I expressed that I need time to think about it. But that's, that's when I also got warned that this can impact my tenure and promotion. So that night I really struggled, Andrew. And I remember breaking down and crying. And then while engaging in my self reflective practice of, you know, active meditation and chanting, I made a conscious effort to reflect upon the underlying reason behind why I want tenure and promotion. Why am I in academia?
And then in that process it became clear that it is to be able to raise next generation of leaders who can build a world that honors mental health and well being.
And I can't do that if I don't role model to my students what it means to have healthy boundaries and ability to say no. And then I also realized that without realizing it consciously, but unconsciously, subconsciously, I was attaching a lot of my self worth to my titles and roles and the amount of work I was doing and others validation than remembering that my self worth is unconditional and inherent.
And as long as I live life that is true to my purpose, deeply supporting those I want to support, my students clients, then there is no reason for me to be filled with fear around things like tenure and promotion, et cetera. And that's what happened. So I still said no. But two years later I got early tenure
in promotion and that was in 2020. And then my university president appointed me as the chair of newly formed Mental Health Task Force because so many faculty and staff started struggling and so many mothers started leaving the world of academia. You know. So I feel like we all have also a deeper, unique purpose even within our work environments.
But if our work environments or what we are trying to do gets too attached to our self worth or we start looking at our own life and the worth of our life only in terms of the titles and roles and promotional status or the amount of money, then we are not able to tap into the real potential or purpose of that work to advance a positive change in our own life, in our family and communities. Wow, there's so much. I'll use your words that you used at the beginning of this episode.
This A huge amount of courage, a huge amount of wisdom, a huge amount of compassion, both for self and for others that goes into being able to take such a broad stance and I guess to use language that Todd Kashdan would use and some kind of principled insubordination, principled rebellion. To be able to say no to things that know are ultimately the ways in which power, the ways in which status, the ways in which structure operates within the systems in
which we work. To be able to hold on to purpose and take the consequences of that is it requires a lot of courage and perspective and wisdom and compassion. And I feel like your example shows that it was very much worth it. And I'm sure that it's not always that case for many people. I'm sure that it, it doesn't necessarily work out for everyone to be able to do that. And it's so important to be able to have models of what it can be. Yes. And that's
why a lot of advocacy around this work is needed too. Right. So eudaimonic wellbeing, sense of purpose. Usually the way we land up focusing on is lot of in terms of internal strengths. That's why I really admire your work because a lot goes into removing systemic barriers that are in place that do not allow people to really flourish and thrive.
So let's go there for a second. So you were talking about the work that your purpose you see now as largely supporting the next generation of leaders who can try to make a difference within those systems. So what guidance would you give them? Whether they're teachers, whether they're managers, whether they're people who are supporting organizations. How can that next generation think differently
about purpose? Especially in a way that honors some of the cross cultural kind of, of context and sensitivities that you've described, some of the feminist perspectives and kind of what it means to think about gender and identity in different kinds of ways and even just really reframing what work might mean. These are such important questions and something that I continue to reflect upon, continue to do research about, to be able to support that. Right. That's part
of my journey. Based on what I know so far is I would love to answer this question in two ways. One, for those who are seeking courage to be able to live true to their own purpose and fulfill their own purpose. And then second, to those who are educators, managers who are committed to inspiring sense of purpose in others hearts, right, who see their role as engaging in purpose strengthening interventions. So with the first one based on my own example, I would say that please rely
on community. None of us can exist in isolation. There have been times when I have struggled deeply with my own self worth and lack of sense of purpose. And in that time I was able to reach out to someone within my own supportive community network. It's actually a peace organization that in affiliation with United nations, advance peace, culture and education now in 192 countries known as Soka Kaka International.
And anytime I am discouraged, I reach out to one of my friends within Soka Kaka International to really seek words of hope and encouragement. So for example, when I had my miscarriage while I was trying to have my second child, one of my darkest thoughts was that maybe I'm not a good enough mother to one and that's why I'm not able
to have second. And that thought was emerging because as a woman from underrepresented background in academia, there is a lot of significant amount of time that I dedicate to work and my work really aligns with my purpose. But based on my sociocultural expectations, sometimes I feel I'm not giving enough amount of time to my own children, which then makes me grapple with these feelings of guilt and insecurity.
However, my husband and I are so united around creating a century of women where women can be leaders and can really bring peace and happiness. So I never feel judged in my own immediate context. But it was my own judgments, right, that I was holding onto.
But in that moment, my friend whom I reached out to on the night when I had miscarriage, she shared with me that, Kitima, you know, your miscarriage is not because you're not a good enough mom, but this too will become part of your beautiful journey of your own purpose. To be able to relate with other parents who are dealing with similar, you know, similar hardships and be able to give them hope and courage that they need.
So that night when I saw my own, this, you know, this painful episode of grief from the lens of my purpose, I was able to persevere with joy rather than letting myself be pulled in the direction of depression and anxiety that it was causing. So I share that, you know, to be able to connect with you based on our shared humanity and really highlight that all of us need encouragement and Support that can warm our
heart and remind us about our purpose. So never hesitate, you know, to reach out for that support and warm words of encouragement. And also not to attach our self worth to external titles and roles. Because when all these titles, roles, amount of money, our promotional status, when all that is taken away, who are we at our core? What's our humanity? What's in our heart? What's in our mind? Do we have this capacity to inspire, hope, encourage in others hearts is what really determines our victory
as a human being. And you know, our purpose as a human being, I feel really lies in our behavior as a human being, our day to day life. So that's, you know, one thing that I would share. And then second, for those who genuinely want to engage in this work that can strengthen their student sense of purpose, their client's sense of purpose, their employees sense of purpose. Is that
what you know, like when I was describing all these five phases, right. There are specific strategies that you know, you can look in my research paper on what you can do around these five phases of exploration, engagement, reflection, articulation and actualization. But the diagram focuses on the overall bubble that influences all this, is that humanity,
educators, managers, coaches humanity. Because if we don't have the humanity to believe in other people's potential and really believe in the fact that the student, client, employee whom I'm serving is this unique person with their own unique life's journey and with their unique potential and a profound purpose that only they can fulfill, then we won't even make a genuine effort to help them to reflect upon their purpose. So you know, our own humanity in that.
And then really culturally sensitive ways to discuss about purpose. So for example, not telling others what their purpose should be, not imposing purpose from outside, but creating spaces where people can authentically share about themselves, bring their whole selves into work, their intersectional identities, and then reflect upon the value they bring to our work or our educational environments and just society and our world's
future at large. Wow, Kitima. I feel like we could be speaking all day long and like dive into each individual nuance of everything that you've just said. But, but wow. I am so inspired around the ways in which you're painting this connection between human revolution and a real sense of purpose that can be tangible and practical and come alive for individuals which really starts with this common sense of shared humanity. So wow, that's exciting. Thank you, thank you
for this conversation. If people want to know how they can stay connected with you or learn more, more about some of the models that you've just described. How how can they do so? There are several ways. One of the best ways is LinkedIn. You know, just connect with me over LinkedIn and please don't hesitate to message me. I would love to explore future collaborations or how I can support you or your organization.
Another way is when you go on my LinkedIn profile you will see that there is this ebook that I have written that actually condenses everything that I was sharing in podcast and I've condensed my research articles in a way that is simple to grasp and have shared my own personal stories even around miscarriage, my parents depression, my own journey as a
mother from underrepresented background in academia. And I've also shared some very practical strategies that can help you to reflect upon your own purpose and strengthen your own self worth. So yeah, access that you know. Free ebook Connect with me via LinkedIn and just don't hesitate to reach out.
We will be sure to put all of those links and more in our show Notes for this Episode Gitima thank you so much for your presence today, for your wisdom, for your courage, for your compassion, for helping us take your purpose and help others elevate theirs. Thank you so much. Thank you Andrew for everything you do. And thank you so much for creating this space where we can engage in these meaningful dialogues. Thank you. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Meaningful Work Matters.
If you haven't already done so, be sure to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform and if this episode resonated with you, please take a moment to leave us a review. Your feedback helps us make this podcast better and reach more listeners. You can connect with me, Andrew Soren on LinkedIn or visit visit www.eubd.ca to learn more about Eudaimonic by Design. Finally, if what you heard today spoke to you, tell your colleagues and people in your community about
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