Who Moved my Cheese by Spencer Johnson

There's this maze, and somehow these two mice and these two little people find their way into it. But they're not the only people in this world. Will friends and neighbors into the maze and to show them they're cheese?

Yeah, exactly when I was waiting to bring us. That is a huge breakdown.

What's going on?

I can't imagine something more unappealing business stable.

I feel like you would literally have to do no editing to make this into a children's picture book, Like the word count is already there.

Why do you have me here? Why am I here? You want me to perform in this maze? What is this? Oh my god?

Am I about to defend this book?

Hold on? Oh my god, I try to defend it. I don't even know how you get Hello everyone, and welcome back to me book Club. This week we read Who Moved My Cheese? By Spencer Johnson Woo Getting the maze? Where to go?

I don't know, but maybe I'll explain it a lot of time, a lot of times.

Well, this is a real this was a real fun one.

As always getting a catchphrase going for it, get in.

I think that is something because there's something like that I should have looked it up, but there were like were catchphrases that the dumb mice said, I mean, sorry, little people, Jesus Christ will go. We'll get into it. I'm sure if you don't know this, we're gonna but well we'll help you.

Yeah, we promised. It's the book. No, we have just Sarah.

It's it's fair to be confused.

But yes, there's tiny people amazed as well. It's a lot.

It's not we are mean book club. We read New York Times bestsellers that maybe shouldn't be. We are your host, as I said, I'm Sarah Burton.

What's up. It's Clara Morris.

How's it hanging?

Jonas Gravis, it's hanging real low Sopria insjored it.

That's where we want it. That's ideal, but you can believe it.

We didn't plan that.

I think they I think they know. I want to tell you, guys, why we're reading this book. Okay, it was Patron Patty wyn Jam Okay she said this, Hi, lovely ladies. Patty. Here. I've been in. I've been an enormous fan for about six and a half years and caught up on your whole back catalog. Keep up, keep up the caddy. Good work. Note to self, We're probably going to hide some of the back catalog, so get

You can't just be like.

Excuse me, excuse me. The vault's been opened this whole time.

Okay, the vault.

Afraid that there was some trouble.

Me too, I'm so sorry. Yeah, anyway, Patty continues, I have a book recommendation that I think is perfect for many reasons. Who moved my First of all, it's a bona fide bestseller and spend five years on the New York Times list, so no surprise is about a non be years. Yes, all of that. So yes, Also, a few books have done such irreparable damage to the American psyche. It's basically a pamphlet about layoffs and how any worker

She did listen.

Yeah, I've never felt more heard. It's all framed around the dumbest possible parable about a mouse who's upset that their human overlord move their cheese. I would say, it's a little off, but we'll get into it. You will hate it. That's true. There are many actual, documented cases of employers gifted gifting their works this book only to immediately lay them off. This is a harbinger of destruction, a moth made of books. I love the pod you ladies,

And then a quick sign up.

I did like a brutal straight bullet takes me out At the end of it.

I wouldn't. I would say it was at I like.

You guys all, even Johnna when pointing the gun at.

So good, so like it's even just like it's like, I like you all, goes without saying John means but I've warmed up as best I can.

I'm scared of you know, I just love Sarah. Yeah that is. I don't I don't know how this happened, but I mean it has happened. I think for sure. I just maybe I'm maybe I'm messed up, Like why aren't I the villain? Maybe I need to step up my game. I don't know.

You're scared that and I both loved not being the villain.

It's true, so obviously Sarah.

Okay, so how did you guys read this one?

Oh boy, I'll go first. I, first of all, really thought that there was no world in which this would not be available at the library, but it wasn't, and so I had to get it on an audible, which was a bit of a toss because the book itself was cheaper than a credit, but I already had the credits, so buying it was spending more money.

I wouldn't have done that.

So I can't even remember what I chose.

Actually, I think, I hope not the credit.

I think I bought it. I think I bought it, but I did debate it. And for me, because I bought the credit package, it was only like one dollar cheaper than a credit, so it wasn't a big difference, but I did think about it anyway. Audiobook three point five time speed. Let me tell you, why did you use it?

Because you listen to it in fifteen minutes?

Well it was. I listened to it in about twenty five minutes. Yeah, ye, honestly it was great. On a bridge. It is an hour and twenty nine minutes.

I think, yeah, it's the fucking shortest. It's definitely the shortest thing we've ever done.

And also fifty minutes of that are an introduction and afterward and end notes. Yeah, so it's actually only like forty minutes of book.

Yeah, yeah, it's great.

Do you think that that contributed to why it was a bestseller? People are like, well, I'm not as well.

Full well read a book in my life.

They make it a little gift.

Yeah it feels good. Oh, we'll get into it. For sure. It was gift.

I feel like Sarah is like portraying like there's a lot to get into, but there's a lot to get it little to get into.

Oh no, no, no, she's done some research. I've memorized is no, I haven't memorized this book, but uh, okay, so that's Sabrina did. Did anybody else do aud audiobook? How'd you guys get through?

Yeah?

I did an audiobook and I did not even look at the price. I just used a credit.

Wow, okay, you guys are I got it out of the library, so big talk. I guess I requested it in time. But I also got the summary, like I didn't realize immediately I requested and I accellently requested summary of this book. And I also got that and I did not listen to it. But I was like, what the why the fuck does this book have a summary? Book?

Like?

Yeah, this book which is just four summaries of it.

Yes and yeah, over and over again, John, how did you? How did you read it?

I spent the credit. It pained me to do so, but I really got over confident on this one. I looked at the length. I said, an hour and forty five minutes, I'll do this day of this is I'll be fresh?

Yes?

And we got into a panic all of a sudden. It was how am I going to get this book?

Where this book?

Will I have time to read this book?

I d it. I bet you could find PDFs of this book. I mean, I didn't d percent if anybody had felt the need. Maybe this audible thing is really detrimental to us. It's weakening, all right, I think I know, I know from like reading other reviews, and then I went and looked at PDFs of the book that like there's some it's kind of like drawling. I don't know, it's like even more childlike than when you're listening to it. Oh kind of thing. But uh, all right, so that's

Uh?

And Clara? Could you be Carlos? And I'll be Lena? Okay, all right, Michael, Angela, Carlos, and Lena gather around a punch bowl at their twenty year high school reunion.

You know, I still think about that story I told last time we were all here, who moved my cheese?

Oh right, the one with the little people who were the size of mice or mice that could talk, or were the actual mice And then there were also little people forced to live as mice. Did we ever get a backstory there?

Their names were Sniff, Scurry, Pim and haw Right. They were all in some kind of maize looking for cheese. Classic metaphor stuff.

Wait what the cheese represent again?

Whatever you want it to success, a relationship, a job, anything you value. The whole idea was life changes, and if you cling too tightly to the old cheese, you get stuck.

Oh that was hem, wasn't it. He refused to believe that cheese was gone. Do you think Ham was shrunk in a shrink ray or do you think he was born that small?

No idea, Angela, But back to the story. Sniff and Scurry, the mice didn't overthink it. They just noticed the cheese was gone. They moved on.

But mice can't think right like, of course, they don't overthink it. They choose electrical wires and pissed and shit wherever they eat. And that's who you should be looking up to. And how did they get so small?

Angela, have some more punch, But the little people on Paul he hesitated, remember, and he eventually laughed at himself and went looking for the cheese.

Right right, He learned to adapt. He realized if you do not change, you can become extinct. So he overcame his fear and stepped back into the maize.

Oh kind of like after college huh.

Or layoffs or breakups.

Or after workplace discrimination. Just look for other cheese. Find a different racist cheese or does that only apply to the little people? Do you think a magic spell was cast on them and that's how they got to are racist?

Uh? Okay, maybe we should clarify the lesson. Just you know, for angela.

Simple change is inevitable. The cheese will always move, So you accept that and act, the better your chances of finding nude cheese.

I remember, always wear sneakers around your neck right like a necklace. Is that a gen z thing?

Or what?

The fashion is hard because we're so old.

The listen is, don't be a hen.

Be more hole or better yet, be like the mice.

Don't over complicate things right.

Keep it simple. Don't mention your impending divorce. Don't mention your son taft just got kicked out of his school for poop smearing. Don't mention your former business partner went behind your back and bankrupted your essential oils company, focus on something else. Look at this punch.

She's a new cheeseees.

Better, really good, really good. I wish I had got cast as Angela.

Order we nailed that.

Laugh.

I think I think we did.

Thank you. I could have you remember too many cooks.

I didn't.

I was inspired by that.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah that's it. What is it, Clara, go ahead.

I didn't know how to play Carlos. I did different. I was happy. I was regular at the end.

I don't know.

No small parts, only small actors.

Honey.

I never meant to imply.

Some characters just need to say past this.

Yeah you should be happy.

Then about what was written. I was, I suppose agreeing with you that there are small actors. I was admitting I almost wrote unbelievable.

I almost wrote something in cheese puns. But then I I started to hate myself, so I yeah it changed course.

I'm just a little bit. Yeah, this was really good. This was really good.

I want to I like Angela. I might want us to do like a million act outs of those people, because like it's written so poorly, and like all those the characters talking about like.

The book, oh yeah, they.

Set up talking about the parable with these This just basically like it's a high school reunion and it's just so bad, Like it's just forced.

And they're sitting at a table, no personalities. Literally, it's like one of them says something and they're like, you were captain of the football team.

Yeah, it's written like you was written in five minutes, but it did take twenty years.

Yeah, apparently it did. Let's let's uh, let's get into that. After Johnna's jugs. Okay, Johnna, yeh, do you have a parry?

Oh my god, I'm in an absolute I forgot about John's john.

Oh my god, I feel like you already talked about being in a panic this episode.

I have a book, I have a jug.

You have a jug? Oh thank god? Sabrina is.

It like milkid? I don't know.

Serena's my savior. Serena saves it the day. Sena saves the day.

Okay, Wow, I have two ways that I could do this.

So I'm gonna.

I'm gonna give you jug options.

Okay, Okay.

The first jug is milk.

Yeah, that makes it makes sense. I get it.

Yeah, because yeah, milk turns into cheese. It's my understanding of how the process.

I don't even know anything else.

I'm with Serena. I've not been offered milk. Yeah, I think that's the jug. Yeah.

My second jug is just generally wine because the wine should be anything you want it to be, and you compare it with cheese. Wine is also anything you want it to be.

That's true.

It's funny because and they say that in the story, but in the story it is just cheese. So it's it's weird that they're like, within the story, do you know what I'm saying? The story, they're like, yeah, for the little people, cheese was could be any of these things, but but it wasn't. In the story. Cheese was just cheese. Like, yeah, it was weird the thing.

They ate, right, which really kind of messed up as meta.

What are you doing here, bud? But a lot of issues.

Have you guys heard of have a jug question? Okay, have you guys heard of the story? Hey tea? No, it's new is hopping. They have a new kind of thing they put on the top of the tea, which is called cheese cream, which is a bad name, but it is like whipped cream of cream cheese.

Oh, this would be the perfect drink for such a.

I don't want to ever try that.

I try try it.

Hate the stores is just hate tea.

The way that is so us as to how it might be spelled.

I H E Y T T E the regular. It's a T store, so all regular.

It's from Cha okay. I see you have it at Tyson's corner. That's where you get right, I.

Haven't right down the road closer store.

It's Chinese.

When it was a tea store, I was like, like glutter t.

It's it's in shang. I didn't.

Google lines out the door.

I'm interested, I gottata.

I'm interested to. I'm interested to.

When you listen to this episode, I do want you to hear the recording of yourself saying, hey tea, just the way you'd spell hate tea, and yeah, like hate a place like you know.

Oh.

I was.

If you want to look up what she's talking about, it's h E y oh my god.

They know by now, they knew, they knew immediately.

I think because I was talking about T shop before.

I think I think thelous. All right, all right, guys, let's keep going. Let's get into this. It's a good jug all right, guys.

Wait, why was this a jug question?

It was because it would be a good jug for the Oh My question was have you heard of it?

Okay?

Really coming, really going for all right here.

All right, guys, let's get to this book. It's called Who Moved My Cheese? An amazing way to deal with change in your work and in your life.

It doesn't want to give you a way to die.

You have to do it.

By Sponsored Johnson's.

I guess let's yeah, okay. The book was published in nineteen ninety eight. It is a business fable.

It was a new genre. I don't want to read.

I didn't more unappealing business fable.

I have it with at least fifty three min It was a New York Times bestsellerupuon release and remained on the list for nearly five years. So yeah, that was what. And it was originally a fifty three week Yeah. It was also a long running bestseller for Publishers Weekly, over

I feel like you would literally have to do no editing to make this into a children's picture book, like the word count is already there.

Yeah, honestly, cut things that they should have cut for adults is what probably what they cut around. But uh, and there is this weird movie version I found that looks oh, I don't know how it got.

We can share it, yes, please, let's share it.

It's yeah, it's a little ridiculous. But why is this the best seller? You know what? I'll go into that later. I don't need to. We'll talk about the mister Spencer Johnson it's a cliffhanger, you know, it's a little cliffhanger. I'll try to go in that fest. Spencer Johnson, he was someone who avoided the spotlight, avoided publicity, so there's not a ton known about him, but we know he's born in nineteen thirty eight, South Dakota. He got a degree from USC medical degree from the Royal College of

Now I'm going to USC, not University of Southern California. I'm assuming it's.

No use the University of Southern Yes, yes, okay, okay, okay. I just.

I just assumed he was too stupid to know us. Because he seems really stupid.

We're going to keep going.

Correspondence school that's also called us.

Fair Fair Quest. It was the real one, really university's school college. So this was something I was a New York Times article had because he died in twenty eighteen. But to his death, there was an artist some article that had some information about him, and it said that at the time he was seen, he was doing you know, residency. He felt a lot of diseases, were people lacking something in their soul, and he wanted to fix them from the inside. This is like kind of fucked up. So

Sounds nice, honestly.

It makes it sound like every disease is your fault.

While he was working in the hospital and then he's the rapist who's going to fix it.

He grew frustrated on seeing the same patient's return with the same ailments as if they were not trying to better their lives. Oh, isn't that fucked up? Like I don't know. So he was at at the Mayo Clinic and Harvard Medical School at this time, and he was working in the hospital and he was got frustrated by all these sick people just kept being sick. So he

Any relation to Gypsy Rose.

You know, not that I'm that's gonna have to be a deep dive for someone else because I did not do that research. And I apologize. I apologize for not first off, but yeah, he wrote. So they and they had bestseller in the eighties called The One Minute Manager, and it got and became like a series or a ton of spin offs. It was not a real book. It was also just sixty five pages, and apparently to the publisher. The publisher was like, this is only sixty

That's like the Dale, Yes it is, it is. Wow, can't from can't believe I remembered what book that came from?

Well, the advice and self help books stick with you.

Or it's all the same as also possible, there's some of the spa spawns of It was one minute Father and one minute Teacher, which I don't know. I didn't look into what these were, but it just I don't think.

Minute Father, well that is possible.

True second father, and I'm out out of the picture. He wrote another book ninety two to.

At least be an eight minute father.

I don't know. We're just talking about how long sex lasts? Is that what?

Oh?

Yeah? Yeah. So basically became like a management guru, and he did seminars and stuff, and so this was like a cheese story he told the seminar and eventually he claimed somebody told him to make it into a book. But I'm sure, you know, maybe everyone did. I don't know. So nineteen ninety eight he wrote it came out blast Off, a huge deal. He you know, we'll get into it. He died in twenty seventeen at the age of seventy eight, and his sequel, Out of the Maze was published posthumously

No, I'm like, is Patty a fake name for a patron? Patty the patron.

Oh I don't know. If so, I don't care because it was a great suggest I think it was really.

So how did maybe it was you from the future?

How did this book?

How did this book get so successful?

Okay, I yeah, I'd love to know.

Uh, well, there's there's a few like there's some business context at this time where like we're in the nineties and it's life is good, life is good, but like there's also like a ton of layoffs. There's a lot of there's a big focus on you know, maximizing profits to this shareholder and making companies lean and even if like they're successful, so there's a lot of like we're doing well, the company's doing well, but they're laying everyone off,

It was the nineteen ninety eight you live to rest your life off that, Yeah, you buy a little house.

A ten yeah. Yeah, so just one of those books that you know, Jesus Christ, they're giving it because.

I don't have to give anything. It's true, you don't have to give a gift when you were like just leave them alone.

But what I had you that's gonna give them severance.

I think this was for managers and people to make them sell. Like it was I'm doing this. I'm giving this to you. You're being laid off, but it's to make myself feel better as the manager lay you off. Because it's like you're, oh, your opportunities await, you know, like shin up, you know you're you're gonna be okay. And I don't feel.

Mary cheese you've never had before.

You're awesome Swiss.

Yeah, and you're being laid off because you're a hall you know, a hem and a hall. So you need to read this and learn to not be like that.

So here's the big problem with this business fable. The premise is that these two mice and these two little people are sent into a maze and they're just randomly given cheese one day, and then they become dependent on the cheese, and then the cheese gets will yes yeah, and the cheese gets taken away and they're like, ah, who moved my cheese? I deserve this cheese. I count on this cheese. And it's supposed to be this parable for work and how like you know, they freaked out

Oh my god, am I about to defect queen hold on?

Oh my god, I try to defend it. I don't even know how you can.

Know what I'm Okay, No, But what I was gonna say is I have a lot to complain about on this book. But I thought the messaging that I took away okay at my three point five time speed wasn't exactly that. Like what I took away was Okay, you have this cheese, and I think, honestly like it being there for simplicity was for simplicity. In the book, it's like, you have this cheese. You're at a place in life. We are all at a place in life, and the place we are at life is this cheese. And you

This is this is That is the nicest over simplification of my life.

But it's also like for me, the equivalent of like if there was just a big pile of mulch I got and one day the mulch went away, I didn't Why why was I given mulch at all? I was able to forge for my own?

Mult didn't find you didn't they have to find the cheese.

They did. They had to originally find it to work for it. In the parable, it says, it says the difference again, why the fuck are there little people in mice? Why aren't they all mice? Like?

Why are people?

This doesn't make any fucking sense. Why the mice?

You actually can just have it be mice.

Yeah, like made it more confusable, It made it way more confusing. And why do the mice have sneakers? Anyway? They the rule says something like about how the rules of the world don't make sense. Okay, but it says something about like, oh, they're looking for the cheese, and like the little mice like they what are their names? Scurry and they sniff and scurry and that's how they find the cheese. But the humans use their brain and there but.

It doesn't they don't say it doesn't say.

How, doesn't go it all into how they use it, just they've just that's mentioned. And then like but they're but they're fucking idiots because apparently, like the cheese has been getting moldy, they say later the she's been getting moldy the cheese, the mound of the cheese has been getting less and less, and our fucking idiot humans haven't

First place?

Yeah? Why move your own cheese? You could be the answer to who moved your But they can't move their own cheese, not in this they have to find another cheese. But like in life, you move cheese.

You could move your own cheese.

I do that.

I would amaze.

Who is the hand in this story? Is that? That's capitalism? That's like market forces? Like what are we talking about here?

It depends on what the cheese is, right, Like maybe the cheese is Maybe the cheese is my Maybe the cheese is self love.

Okay, the money because it's easy.

Yeah, but like it's whatever you need it to be.

It's still fair. I think it's fair to question who did that, Like who's putting the cheese? What are the forces that are placing the cheese here? Because it will like to know that information would help you be able to figure out where the cheese might be next.

If I know, are the fair questions to ask?

Right?

If I know that the cheese is being provided by a cheesemonger. Then the next thing I need to know is where the origins? Where are their headquarters? That's where I'll go.

Let me go to.

Maybe one day it's a cheesemonger. Maybe one day it's a person who works in Whole Foods that not in the cheese section.

And I don't know.

There's a lot of.

Yeah, yeah it does.

There's a lot of places the metaphor doesn't work at all, Like even in what we've been talking about. So the idea that someone moved your cheese and you're pissed off about it, it doesn't work to in the way he's describing it for that to be your job or your relationship, because he also describes him getting weaker from not eating. So it really pissed me off the bar or whichever or hem was, like would I was so afraid of change?

Okay, but wait, maybe it doesn't break down right. Maybe you don't even realize you're starving yourself because it's not good it's it's like, yeah, you're right, that's not of a steam is going down. Your mental health is going that's supposed to be, and don't pull yourself out of that.

He didn't give them symptoms, didn't give them symptoms of depression or mental health. He gave them symptoms of starvation. He said they were getting weaker.

Okay, sure, I'm sure, but for them it was food.

I'm fine, I find saying the starvation could be your in Sabrina's ideas, Like.

But he also he would also hint it. He say, he would hint at mental health things, but they were also starving. And I think that really took me out of.

The I mean, it was bad. It was bad because he should have just stuck in the lane of parable and like stop bringing up like what it could represent and like let us all determine that, or like let the people. I mean, he had this whole fucking thing where adults are talking about the parable. Let them talk about what it could be. No, within the very story, he's like, also it could mean this, it could mean That's not how the parable works.

We need to talk about another huge way it breaks down, which is that there's this maze and somehow these two mice and these two little people find their way into it. But they're not the only people in this world. Pieces friends and neighbors into the maze and to show them their cheese.

That's exactly what I was waiting to bring us. That is a huge breakdown.

That's a huge breakdown.

What the hell.

Where are these people getting their quote unquote cheese. Also, one of the characters is like I've gathered hem is like I gathered so much cheese at my cheese estate. I'll have enough cheese to live on cheese Drive someday. Well, now, let's become.

Money, because it needed to be money at that time.

Sabrina, Okay, Sabrina defend the parties, but they threw with other little people to go see the cheese.

Then do the parties represent real parties?

You know, like at that time, the cheese is doing it for you. At that time, you are loving the cheese. It's it's it's saying that.

I think it's saying you're showing off the cheese.

Off the cheese, yeah right, but you love that, right.

But in the book, they're not showing it off to the mice. They're not showing it off to each other. They're showing it off to other people. Where the fuck did they live? And how do they do?

They go to?

Stout stains them.

Well, let's go to the other mazes. Are they in different mazes? Why are we just hanging out this maze?

They can get in and out of the maze. But also the solution to Hem and Haw's problems is not ever to leave the maze, which shows you this community and village that I guess they live in. It's to just look in other rooms in the maze, which if we're talking about a metaphor, then now I'm just still at the same company and I'm like, oh, I got fired from my job in the IT department. I'm just gonna keep slamming my head again to this application to work in data.

I'm gonna go back to the building where I worked.

Well to be invited into the right bring into the maze. Are actually in other mazes. So it's not like you can be in the maze or you can be in this free, wonderful world. It's like you can be in this you can be in that maze.

It seems like.

I'm going to capture one of the mice from the other goddamn mazes and it's gonna work for me and I'm gonna ride it to wherever the Jesus. Why don't.

What happened to? What are these fair weather friends? Also times got tough? I didn't. I didn't see that.

Another refer classism friend and friend.

Also, but the main also, the the main like thing is like, oh, we should be doing what the mice are doing, just moving on and not thinking about what we lost or what it was just like it was crazy because I'm like, yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't apply to most situations, anything that's slightly complicated, anything that's like structural that requires like people to you know, pull the resources to overcome an issue. It's just like, no, the issue is you and you just need to move on.

Perhaps specific to hem and Haw because they're not smarter than the mice.

They are longer than the mice, yes.

So maybe yeah, they should be more like the mice. I think my biggest thing with him in Haw was they have pens to write on the walls and they write little inspirational sayings, but they don't use it to help them navigate the maze.

No, you guys felt like they were pressing them while he's doing that. I'm lazy. He's going crazy, fully, like I was.

Writing things like always smell the cheese, like you imagine the cheese.

You will get to the cheese room, No cheese, nobody that.

I was just sometimes she's could appear where it wasn't before, so it doesn't matter if you checked her room.

Well, he said he got lost, so it might have been good to have some markings.

Yeah, I felt this. It felt like squid games to me, like a scarier squid games, honestly, but yeah, again, who why it? Also if a hand dropped the cheese there, like bite the hand, bite, Why couldn't have put the cheese back exactly where they put it? Like maybe the hall was right to just sit and wait because.

Maybe the hand is hurt and sick and needs the head.

I feel like the chances are just just good. He's gonna drop it right in the same place that somewhere else, like I don't know it.

Done even made any sense. Also, when you look at the terrible as it breaks down there. Basically, when you're faced with change or challenge, there are four things you can do. You can be like sniff, which is you can sniff out the problem before it happens, and like.

Take or something. I don't even know what he was doing preemptively, but I just it's he could smell the mold or something.

He could smell mold. So he went to find Better's fresh cheese.

No he didn't.

He waited until the very end, and he can just sneakers around his neck.

Well he knew, I guess.

He just so he waited with dread, okay, the entire time, knowing that the cheese supply was dwindling and becoming less edited.

He didn't he didn't communicate it to anyone else and get together, let's try to figure this out.

No, just like I sense trouble. Okay. So that's one way you could deal with problems, which is apparently a good way. You could be like scurry, which is, as soon as you wait, you do nothing, you have no sense that anything's going to happen. And then as soon as something bad happens, you immediately make a reftis decision and you scurry away to find what God knows what I don't know, right in the arms of a mousetrap.

He got fired at the end, that's the story. Michael goes back and he's like him's fired.

So that's it. Those those are the three options. Get fired and be like him, and I guess just ops insane.

Screw sniff, I guess is your best one? Anticipation I think.

Is ultimately your best one. It doesn't he laughing at himself. He's he learns to evolve.

He's starving today. He's starving today, and he says insane when he is starving to death, lost in the maze. He said, maybe I bid off more than I could chew. And then he laughed because he didn't have anything to chew. I don't think someone who isn't going insane from starvation.

I think he was. He's funny.

I don't. I don't think he was. I think that I don't think anything he was funny.

Those are the words whose faculties were leaving him.

No, they were all there.

What he knows?

You really think?

I don't, it's so funny and scurry.

Were in the maze at all. I think there's something.

That that's a good question.

I think hal was you know, I'm sad for.

Hang Yeah, I feel I feel scared for He left him to die and then was like creating this whole story to justify what he did.

What do I know we kind of touched on it, but what do we really think? The purpose of having two mice and then too little people.

Was because you're the little people because people uh overthink, they have complex thoughts and then they overthink and it makes them not become fearful and be too afraid to go after the next cheese. I think that is the main thing. It's just a very stupid way of doing it.

Yeah, so just like be thoughtless like a mouse.

Yes, that's the That is fully the message, which is which is why it's like an insane book to give your workers. But was for that purpose to be like, we don't I don't want you to think too much, guys, don't question why these why we're making these structural changes in the business and we're fired. Everyone just go with it, like be a mouse, grace, Grace Gary.

Do you guys think a mouse really would move on to another part of the maze or would they just like lick at the corners of the wall and scratch at the corners of the wall.

Mice find their way out of mazes. That's like, I mean, that's certainly why it's set here, right, is because that's like a conscience.

Experiments are dumb.

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I don't know why they aren't just all walking around the maze. I mean, it seems like you should get some exercise. I mean, if that's all where you live, why are you staying in one room like.

One?

That's another place. It sort of breaks down, isn't it that they aren't.

Having parties, but you're not exploring, but they only go to this room, So it implies that cheese.

The parties imply that cheese is so novel you would have a party to show it off. So what are the other people eating?

How bad is it?

They're just it's different cheese for them, less cheese. But okay, I got to push back on this because that is like so true, but that's so true. Of it's like say that replace cheese with just the word stuff, and it's like, why are you showing off your stuff? We've all got stuff, but like they're varying degrees of stuff.

Do you think I come to your house to see your stuff?

Well, I don't host to show my stuff off.

But like that's what they did do they host like fashioned cheese. It's you know, so the metaphor of them having a party behind them they're having a party and having their friends come to their party was supposed to be a fashion show.

Yeah, something like that, like a spectacle.

Okay, So here's another point of contention I have. At one point, the smart humans are like, you know what, can't the cheese isn't in this room. We're gonna get some sledgehammers. We're gonna knock a hole in the wall. See if maybe the cheese went into the wall. And

Well, and you might think that I defend the book here, but I happen to agree with you that.

Aha, it's a good idea.

There we go, there we go.

I think they should be burning the maize down building ladder shoots out of the maze.

And I need some level of order in the world.

Yeah, and I still, I still. I just feel like the stuff that he was like these humans, Oh my god, look the things they're doing. It's like, no, they were asking him who moved the cheese? Is the correct question because it can get at where could be? Yeah, it's important, like how does my world work? Is essentially what that question is asking. And I do think, yeah, should know that, should know that because cheese, Because guess what if the

Like robot moving the cheese every four weeks? Is someone moving the cheese to kill me? In which case I have an enemy and I should know.

I don't pull it.

I don't think it needs to be that. It could be that dramatic but I don't think it needs to be that. It be more fun if it could just be it could just be like, you're at your job and it's a dead end job and it's no longer fulfilling you. Inflation is rising, the salary no longer feeds you. You got to go get a bree cheese job.

Where am I going to get a bree cheese job?

Somewhere somewhere else in the main. That's the point, though, is your mindset is where am I going to get a bree cheese job? There is no breecheese job out there. My little shred of American is the only job left. But when you actually go out into the maize, you're like, oh, there is a bree cheese job, or maybe don't find the bree cheese job.

You're like, monster, Okay, here's a problem with Oh there's.

The Monster's definitely the monster is definitely paying you less money. It's definitely paying you less money. I think if you're getting that monster than American.

Yeah, fully, Okay, So this is like, hey, you've got this American.

We live in America.

The American cheese is disgusting.

Well, it depends, you know, if we're talking about a burger.

Yeah, you work American cheese.

It comes in steady, Okay, it comes in steady every week. Yeah, maybe it's been a little less lately. Maybe it's maybe it's not the quality I was used to, But it's a steady cheese. But this hem comes over and he's like, hey, man, what would you do if you had no fear? And I'd be like, huh, I guess I'd live. I'd go move to Newport, Rhode Island where the Vanderbilts and the Rockefellers have their mansion, because that place seems beautiful, and I I guess I'd like to be a singer. Oh,

And is that a go for cheese?

You can reach?

Okay, But then it's like to say that in the book, it doesn't it doesn't it sho it's in a maze. There's not that. There's not that amount of what like moving between classes is a lot harder than the book is making it out. It's like I'm gonna go get a job, I'm gonna go out and sure, but but

Like it's just and like it's not even that it's your fault. It's like it's not my fault. So you deal with it like like I will. The onus is on you. Don't ask me for a reference. The illness is on you.

Right, here's what suck. I know it's my tweet. My cheese is dwindling. I know this. It's getting a little bit moldy. I sit there and I wait, I've got night vision goggles that I watch for the hand. The hand comes in, I fucking latch on the game, and I say, what's going on with the goddamn cheese? Okay, I need good cheese. I need to here now, I need the quality I'm used to or I'm gonna bite through your skin.

You why do you have me here?

Why am I here? You'll need to perform in this space?

What do you want from me?

Is this how you talk to your boss?

Yeah?

Yeah, if he was starving?

Does that maaving me poison money?

It's just so sad, I do, Sabrina to go back to, like the only message I do think that like why are you well? Like what is the fucking afraid question? He asked that I feel is it was.

Like what would you do if you were if.

You were no fear? I get, I do a little bit get that question. I don't like to apply it to like business or whatever, but like just to get yourself thinking why not? Why not?

Why not apply that to business and professional life.

Because they're well, not just because it's like what where the message is coming and what the intention behind me asking myself that is, but because uh, like a little fear I think is is good and necessary and also.

Well the book says that too, and it's.

Making me think good. It's making me it makes me.

The question makes me feel like.

That the reason like why I don't have success or I'm not doing well is just because I'm not thinking big enough, which is which completely ignores, like I said, structural issues like which it ignores, like class issues like there are a lot of people that it is not easy to move between jobs for ignores disability discrimination, it ignores so many things.

Book, but if I repeat the same story five times, it can only fit in.

So sure, Sure, but I think I was trying to say, yeah.

But yeah, here's why someone might have a little fear. I guess is like I'm this is probably stupid, Like I feel dumb even saying this, but like your job is, yeah, there's that fear, uh stupid, But like if your job is tied to your health care, providing health care for your family and you maybe you have dependents that are relying on that healthcare and so like such a stupid but like.

That healthcare.

There though, then I wasn't able to keep that child safe. I don't know, it's you're right, it's just because I'm here, I think too small.

I guess I think too much too much.

What I'm not a way from it was not you always have to burn down your life and your pile of cheese. More So, what I took was if someone moves your cheese, there is something else out there, like you, you don't have to be paralyzed by the fear that your cheese being gone is the end of you ever having cheese.

Yeah, it sounds like a message from somebody who was going to be a doctor and chose not to and found success business.

It's toxic positivity, Like it's it's using positivity in a way that's like overall like negative because you're like it undermines like what actually people go through essentially, like, oh, if something horrible happens, like I guess we're talking about the fucking cheese. Your cheese was taken away, Like there there's probably I don't I think it's bad. Sure, blame the victim mentality. I feel like he's essentially saying, like, oh,

What if we take this as a very literal metaphor, and imagine that the food bank you rely on no longer gives out food one day, I think it would be reasonable to say why, and perhaps we could visit the people in charge. Well, that might motivate.

And get closed down. Yeah what happened? I think I.

Would vote otherwise. I'll tell you what I do things that mice couldn't do.

Well, Yeah, sure, you know.

I don't like if I'm sensing that the food bank is like deliveries are slowing down a little bit, probably I'm gonna keep going and just like see what's up, Maybe try to talk to somebody, kind of hand bite it.

Yeah, obsessed, you should be biting. I just think we all should.

Be biting the hand. We all should have a lot of hands as well.

Get those fingers off one by one. I just really hated the like ending with Michael being like talking about like a firing Hammond. I don't know, it's just basically like it was just so pro capitalism and just like that concept of oh, you have to just keep chasing, keep chasing, keep chasing, and it's like okay, slow down, Like I think it's okay to say, like slow down, what is this why is this cheese moving? Like? Is this is this a good system for us to be living in?

Like I just I like what I hit on a moment. I agree that the okay, questioning who moved my cheese is where men and mice. Men and mice defer and the fact that if we find out removed it and why, we can do something to get a better right, right, the mice have to just look elsewhere they have to. Their brains are bad.

But just as a small counter, Okay, Sometimes in life there isn't always a satisfying answer that you can tracked on of like why your cheese was moved? Like maybe your company had mass layoffs. That's nothing you could do differently to prove. I mean, unless you were like the CEO maybe, But like if you're among the line of people that just is like, it's not you personally, right.

You still have to find your cheese, right, Okay, So this is for those specific business moments, is that one?

But like I think so many times in life that is true.

Okay, someone breaks up with you, you don't want to know why.

I feel like the why is important of Like, I mean, I get you're right that it's not always satisfying. Somebody could ghost you, you never see them again. Whatever, But like it still is, You're still gonna need closure in some way from that situation. You're gonna want it, to learn a lesson from it. You're not just gonna gonna like again, I guess scurry away into the next thing, like you're gonna take You're gonna be more cautious. You're gonna be like why were there layoffs in that job?

Like do I want to keep working in TV?

Yeah? Why am I doing this to myself? Why? Why am I doing this?

Like all the TVs are moldy, and I need to investigate further.

I need to find the hand They they're all gone, they're leaving. They look they seem like they've all left the United States. There's cheese in the United States.

Yes, had just smash art cheese.

Is this is this real cheese or is it artificial intelligence cheese?

Exactly?

And why are all the cheeses owned by crafts?

Now?

You see all kinds of cheeses. Now just craft has all the cheeses and they're starting to do pharmacy prescriptions as well, concerns us. And again, maybe there's someone we need to send to a guillotine that's.

All insane, yea.

I mean again, I do think the message of like, okay, you you know, moving we need to all move on eventually is like simple, simple and sure, but like just the way it's wrapped up makes it like so much more toxic. I think, no good book.

Okay, good question though, go.

Ahead, go ahead.

I was just gonna say it was frustrating to me because I feel like I could have written a much more fun people in amaze business parable like using with some rules in place of the world like yeah, the fuck is you know? I think we all could have. I think anyone could have. And so that was frustrating too to listen to him do a bad job with an idea that could have been interesting or fun even you to make them. I want to make them like mice, make it fun. It could have been funny.

Even they could just be two different types of mice.

They could still they could have all been mice.

Mice wore running shoes that some of them ice wore running shoes. What the fuck was that?

Do you think they had two running shoes or four by the way, because it's they tied their sneakers around their neck, so I'm picturing two shoes looped over their neck. Look, mice have four feet.

It's confusing because we're assuming these are real mice, so I would say four shoes. But then also, I've never seen myce sneakers, so I don't know what this world I know it's.

Really I don't know. I imagine sneakers. They're standing up on their back legs.

Okay, well that's not how a mouse all that's wrong.

So their nose is now not uh near the ground picking up the normal sense that would help the mouse. That's I hate what's the author's name? I hate him?

Spencer.

I hate Spencer, hate him.

I do want to Oh sorry, I do really want to talk about the construction of this book. We've touched on it, but I really need to lay into it because I've complimented the book too much.

Which infuriating amount infuriating him.

No, I appreciate it. I appreciate. I appreciate it. I appreciate the appreciate point of view.

Bounce off, appreciate it one.

Okay, the book I read, I assume we all had the same version. It starts with an introduction and the person doing the introduction is talk about how much they like the book, and then they explain what the book is, like detailed, explain. It's like it'll be three parts. We have people there in their the like college reunion, then

So then you get right, then you.

Get the story which is told crazily with the mice and the people, and then the people of the college reunion. They resume again.

Then today right.

To like reflect and it's like you just had this conversation yesterday. They have the same conversation again again explaining like what the book was and when it meant and then and then there was an afterward to the book that once again told the story and what it was about, and all of this is packed into one hour and twenty nine minutes an audio, Like five times six times you hear this story?

Could you hear it more?

I didn't need the people at college.

I didn't need that. But oh wait, I didn't really like I forgot at the end. I can't remember Carlos so what I can't remember which one was like, oh, I worked for my family business, but it's gone out of business because the big box store. And then he was like his takeaway wasn't like anything about like capitalism or like you know, Walmart moved in and kicked the little guy out. He was just like it was my fault.

Like you takeaway was like the big box store came in and we just kept trying to operate our store. It's like, yeah, I don't sorry, that's not.

The only way out of that situation is to you've got mail it. Yeah, fall in love with mister Walton.

Right, but your business doesn't your business her store is still get shut down.

Though, Yeah, they incorporate you a little bit.

Yeah, you get to have your little corner of the big box store. Yeah, sure, you're right.

What he should have done was as soon as the big box store came into town, shut down your business.

Run.

Yes, go you know, don't know where, but you get out of here.

Just ship, just ship as you run.

Okay.

So my big question for you all is are you sniff scurry him or haw?

Wow? We eat Captain one?

Wet my cheese?

Gang?

I okay, maybe this is why I took so much from the book.

Okay, yeah, my god.

Do you think of yourself as I think of myself as Hem?

Yes?

Of course, of course.

The hero no Hem's the stupid one, the one you don't want to be.

Okay, the one who's afraid, doesn't he gets brave, but he gets brave, and he's the main character Sabrina.

Sabrina connect to him because Haim has the main character energy, and that's what she was connected to.

Ham is described as a leggy, yet dusty five seven redhead, little little number.

That's me.

Five seven is unattractive, So I don't think that would ever be in a.

Discri five middle leaders seven Wait, middle leaders.

That's how blood is in there. Oh my god.

Okay, so any takers haw, sniff, scurry.

I can't be sniff because I have allergies.

Okay, I'll tell you I'm no sniff.

I guess I'll be sniff, but I don't think it really suits me.

I don't think it suits you either, but probably do you guys think I'm also sniff? Do you think I'm all the characters?

Is that?

No? No, no one's.

Saying that's talking about you.

Moved on from you. That's crazy.

It's just like.

Sarah, I think you're more of a sniff I do out of me and Clara, I think you're a bit more of a sniff.

All right, I don't. I don't know whether I feel insulted. You don't seem to be giving in any sort of positive spin. So it's not me so obviously, that dumb fucking mouse that is like fine things? Is it because I'm constantly sniffing for a new job because I don't have a consistent job out of the four of us. If so, I understand your argument, and I don't agree that it's fair.

About it, Well, I'm a little bit more of a scurry. Panic sets out. This was the inevitable thing has happened. I raised make an immediate, urgent decision. It's a bad one. But I don't know.

I was going to be a Hall.

Yeah, I guess you're wait. Wait is Hall? Wait? Haul is the one that Sabrina wanted to be no.

Room, you know?

And I'm sorry, I got I thought Sabrina was saying she wanted to.

Be respected as much by.

The way I was said main character energy.

I got ye, But I agree that I'm the main character kind of regardless of.

What my I don't have him at all. How I was him?

Wait, now, I'm how you.

Are.

Now I take a risk and you throw move to New York and moved to It was scary, Okay, I love to throw.

Him to die.

And if.

I feel like it, you were the least him. I'm sorry, just think.

You No, I don't feel that way. I feel like I'm I'm afraid of change.

Hmmm.

And at the end of the book, which this is how much I don't know self awareness I have. At the end of the book, when they're all chatting amongst each other or I don't remember which part it was, but it was like when you ask people do you think you're afraid of change and everybody's like no, and then there then they're like, do you think most other people are afraid of change? And they're like yeah, and then they're like ha.

Ha ha.

Because we don't see it in ourselves, but I see it in myself. I am afraid of change.

Did you cry at any point reading this book?

I'm on a lot of hormone.

Can't be blamed. Can't be blamed for that, all right. There have been a lot of like a god satire parodies to this book. I don't even feel like getting into it. It's something interesting. Wow, this book.

Fuck.

I'm glad I've never been giving into it. Given this book at work.

I'm glad no one has ever gifted me this book.

I would be terrified, but remain frozen.

I need, you know what I need to ask. I need to ask my dad if he ever had to employees, and if so, I need to have a conversation with him. I need to have a deep conversation.

That's fun because it'll start off really light, like I read this club. Did you ever get this to your employees?

I'm gonna be like, you are toxic? You want to go, which is fair? Yeah, all right, guys, you ready to that's ready for five star reviews? Do it all right? Here we go. This one comes from our Chit says change or get run over. A great many people have recommended this particular one to me. I did not read. We might be the best species, but sometimes we overprocess adapting and forecasting. Change lurking around the corner is a mark of sheer greatness. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

It's so frustrating, Like if he's just trying to say we overthink, I really think a different metaphor would.

Here, and he says verdict. Spencer Johnson hits the bullseye in a sixty minute book. Wow, it was confusing because you said he didn't read it, but.

Then reviewed it fifty minutes.

Kat can't believe it took me only about an hour to finish this book. Wow, this book is truly what I need finishing it.

Thank you to the author for quotes every time I say book is a book.

I know they love. Thank you to the author for such an inspired and motivational story. Maybe it's finally time I realized it's necessary for me to find my own cheese and get into that maze out there. Smiley face.

Yeah, we want to get into the maze. I'm not currently in and I wish I was in amaze. Pissed.

I'm pissed. No, we should be pissed, I says, I'm in love with this book. It's really really will help me with my career and personal and personal. I will read it a long time. I write, sorry, it's not the best grammar. I read it a long time ago. But as they say, better late than never. What that doesn't make sense?

That's better for me to write this review than never?

Oh that much? Okay, okay, okay, all right, sure, but they're in love with it, all right? So yeah, again, I can't believe people like this book.

It's I'm thinking about that review. Maybe the last episode or the person was like, I can't believe I never wrote a good Reads review on that.

Wow, I want to. It's it's just such a half thought that I'm glad we experienced it with them, all right, you guys ready for hate rates?

Yeah, I'll just do it zero to five.

Oh.

I know it was short. I know it was short, but it was really annoying and it was so short that I sort of had my expectations of an instant of it to be instant, not painful. Here we go, We're done, but we were never done. It still went, it still lasted, It was still unpleasant. I still had to be like, I still finish the book like that still happened to me.

Zeroo five Yeah, oh good.

I'm gonna give it a one out of five for the reason of tricking me into thinking it would be easier to read than it would because it was so short. Yeah, like same boat as Clara. It's just rude to be that short. And then but you're you are still time and I didn't like that.

This is interesting. I'm also gonna give it a one out of five. I actually think it gets a point because it's so short. I didn't have any issues get fighting that hour and a half or whatever to read the book. I understood it. But I also like, I guess part within that point is I do think there's some kernels of maybe something like try not to be afraid to move on. I don't know. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but the whole story was so poorly written.

I'm gonna go three out of five. One point certainly for the brevity, one point for I listen. I think there was something to get out of this if you, you know, if you just if you look past the toxicity of the positivity, I think there's value in the positivity.

Whole book.

This is my time.

Well, I just had a question I thought you could answer in your time. Now I'm vamping.

Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, look it it being a pamphlet that made its way onto the New York Times Bestseller thus qualifying it as a New York Times book that we could read. Incredible, truly a feat of genius. And for the thing that Sarah said at the end there, the truly horrific writing really amped it up and made it a good time for me.

You can use the word change so many times like a paragraph. It was like change. We didn't read any of it I feel I mean, this is partly probably because we'd all did audiobook and it wasn't easy to pull quotes, but like, we really probably could have read half this book in this podcast.

I actually think I could have read the entire book in the length of this.

Podcast fully and just laughed and laughed as we read. All Right, I guess it's it's time for little fucker of the cast.

Look around, Johnny. You were really funny tonight. Everyone was funny. Johnny, you were like unusual for you. Level. No, I'm trying not to insult the others. Well, I tell you you were really funny.

To come and insult to me sort of, but no, I'm process.

Okay, Yeah, you understand what I'm trying to do. I'm not trying to I'm trying to see.

That you were feel like you're trying to do something. It didn't seem like you're.

Trying to try to tell you were funny with Lara making it seem like the other people weren't funny.

Yes, Clara, Clara, Clara, can you remind me when you were earlier you made you said something, then you then I said something, and then instead of continuing, you were like let me go back to what I said, and let me say it again. Do you remember what you were talking about something about It.

Was the metaphor of the food food.

Bank, right, and you were like they should be asking why the food bank's gone, right, like what happened to the food bank? And you're like, that's it. And I just wanted to say I'm voting for you.

Because I thought I was.

Because you were. You came back to say something as though it was an original point, and I'm pretty sure I had said multiple times the point that the question who moved the cheese is a very good question.

Yeah, I thought I was backing you up. I thought it was explaining it to Sabrina, who.

I'm sticking with my guns. It felt like it felt like you were coming up with your own original point point.

My intent, I thought. I not my intent I.

Was.

I thought I had a nice way of explaining it for those two Thick the hit Okay, what you're saying.

I'm gonna take this time to get my vote, which before this was going to be Clara. But that is super Clara for calling me stupid, I said, thick in the head.

Yeah, Well, you also said you.

Were backing her off to explain a point that I wasn't getting, as though I was just too dumb to understand the point. It seemed like that was the situation, but my mind original, the book, my original. Oh and then also you interrupted my my vote for my hate rate, but the original reason was the hate incident and.

My god.

Refusing to Clara, do you want to change your vote?

I mean I kind of wish I could. I you're you're gonna get me about that? I'm sorry.

We going to ask through Patreon. We want to do more polls on Patreon. We can ask who was confused about the spelling of someone talking about a t shop called hay t Yeah, and it will prove our point nicely that no one wants.

Serena. I want to say thank you very much. Reminded me of the hay Tea incident. My vote is already patting to Clara. But let's just say it started there and it went downhill.

This is such bush.

I don't usually vote first, but why now?

This is ridiculous because of the hay Tea incident. Are you talking about how do you spell it?

You didn't know?

And when you listen to the transfer, why you think When you first asked the question, you didn't say it was a T shop. You said it was a jug question, and you said, have you guys heard of hay tea? And then I.

Talked about Then I talked, well, you said you.

Could get cream, cheese, foam, But it wasn't. It just wasn't as clear as you thought it was, and you kept insisting into this hate moment for it.

Look, I understand, I'm clear, still needs to put her vote in, but it is I understand, we understand Claire a little fuck of the gas, but I would.

She is not.

This hate tea thing is very silly. It was very clear what hay tea what most likely stood for, Like I don't I still don't under Are you really arguing that it's h ai t Like what are you right now saying?

First of all, hey has multiple common spellings, tea has multiple commons, and haiti is its own word.

That is not. But when you're talking about even if we're even if you didn't hear the tea shop for some reason, we're talking about drinks, Okay, the concept spelling you're talking about, that's easy. Hey, are you honestly are you're talking about h a y T.

I see, okay, that's just what what am I thinking about?

But then I said, it's just what it's like it is, hey t, it's normal, like it is normal. Yeah, that works when you're saying there's no funny app like spelling of this that.

When you said that, Sam, that's that's a problem.

Maybe it's just that we're so.

Well read that like we Jesus, you know, we just have a bigger vocabulary.

I don't know my hate rape is I mean, my little fucker is Sabrina The reasons really frustrating the way she defended the book really frustrating right now, Yeah, want to hold her head underwater, not to death, just a little bit, jolo jo close second, Okay, Sarah's a close third.

You're mad at everyone?

What's your second? Third, fourth? Little fucker? There's no need to do that.

No, there wasn't a need.

Claire, Claire was voted little fucker. She's calm down, she's allowed to lash out.

Yeah, I believe Claire.

We're usually not on opposite sides, were usually not, so this does make prettiest princess hard.

Oh my god, No, we're not doing it. Last time.

The lie Just remember that pumped full of hormones. So if I don't get it, I'll probably.

Be really sad I'm voting for myself.

Yeah.

Wow, well I actually almost just cried.

The prettiest princess on this cast.

I guess I remember I used to be like you, and I used to get vote a little fucker. You know, I'd lash out, I would come for people later and like pass and you know, I'll just tell you good luck.

For the next cheese.

Is that the John is trying to bring up when she was a little funker the one time she's not voted for it, she brings up how she's.

Saying that's in my passage review obviously, But you know, I just I see, you see the mistakes are less mature little fucker might make. And I'm just worn to you, you know.

Claire on the wall?

Can we please? Are you little princess? Who? No, No, if it's tied, there's no little princess.

It's it's me And that's the ring because implement the rules whenever you want, as long as you're still in the game. And I just did it.

Okay, dude, clarity.

Yourself to me.

So if it's for yourself.

So Claire, it's clear you can now invent a rule that when Sabrina talks, what it means is opposite.

Doing this.

You didn't say that before.

Now I know we did, really, Clara didn't.

You can't but listen to me. That's the second rule though, So that doesn't that rule, doesn't that role?

I feel like, yeah, no, no, I feel like we all knew you couldn't do another one, and that's why I felt weird about it. So yeah, so that's why I stayed silent.

Anything.

It wouldn't be right if you abuse that.

If you abuse that.

Gentlemen made up all right, guys, I have no idea. Well, check us out on Patreon. Become a patron like are our good friend Patty winjub if you could like that last name.

By the way, it's got a sound to it.

I think everyone or John and Sabrina know why. I'm suspicious of it being a fake right, No, Benjamin Benjamin John Wyndam.

I don't think this is a fake name at all.

I don't know. It's weird because when we were in college we used to chant the name Benjamin John.

But that's a real person. But is a real person.

But it's still to me. Why did you chance good? Don't remember at all.

Benjamin John.

It's just a good name, Benjamin John.

Wenjam your friend, you know.

But he was like he generally like you know how people have.

That.

He was our great friend.

Anyway, all right, guys.

I don't know what book we're doing next? All right, next episode we have Beautiful Ugly Bye. Who's a bye? Alice Feeney, Oh, nailed it, Alice Feenie. Oh that's a good one, spooky.

I don't know, I believe very good.

Next episode we have Jimmy Jimmy Buffett book? Right?

Where is Joe Merchant?

Oh? Joe didn't know he was a writer? Interested to see that one? Read it, listen to it. I'll problem Wait does that one have one you could listen to? It? May be so I don't know that I have to read the book. Oh god, Well, good luck to us and to you and uh yeah, that's it for the cast. We'll see you next time. Thank you guys so much for joining us.

Bye bye.

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